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Old 04-14-2006, 04:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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When run of the mill propaganda won't work, who do you hire?

Why, you hire Bush's old PR firm of course. Doesn't it make you feel good that this whole mass of protests was the result of a propaganda campaign by Vicente Fox and *gasp* possibly by Bush's people as well. What's worse is it appears like they have gotten their way.

Isn't it strange also, that the LA Times article about this propaganda campaign is a only 3 months old yet has disappeared from the original site? The google cache confirms that the article did exist.

Quote:
Bush Lobbyist Architect Of Mass Immigration Protests?
Fox hired Rob Allyn & Co. to sweeten US views on immigration

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | April 14 2006

In late December 2005, Mexican President Vicente Fox hired a lobbying firm to sweeten political sentiment in the US towards Mexicans and the immigration issue. The same PR expert and GOP political consultant helped George W. Bush defeat Ann Richards for the governorship of Texas in 1994 and worked on both Bush's presidential campaigns.

Rob Allyn of Rob Allyn & Co. secretly engineered Fox's 2000 presidential victory and is closely tied with George W. Bush.

Is it therefore a stretch to suggest that Allyn, with the blessing of George W. Bush, is the architect of the mass immigration protests that were themselves an inorganic construct of the Spanish language media?

An LA Times report on last December's announcement quotes Allyn (pictured) on his tactics on behalf of Fox,

''Our focus is on public opinion, which influences policy outcomes in Congress,'' said Allyn, 46, who grew up in Huntington Beach, Calif., and moved to Texas when he was in high school. "There is a huge misperception among the U.S. public about Mexico.''

Allyn worked closely with the media during his tenure under Fox, also helping craft his TV commercials. Mexico's foreign minister said his aim was to convey the impression that, "Mexicans have sunk roots deep in their U.S. neighborhoods and that they contribute more through their work, taxes and families than they take away in public services."

This is exactly the kind of propaganda that has unquestionably been relayed by the establishment press in America during the recent protests.

During our reporting on the immigration protests that are a front for the violent separatist Atzlan movement, watching Spanish TV news stations we were able to ascertain that the marches were not wholly an organic response to the introduction of the immigration bill but were being artificially promoted and organized by the Spanish-language media.

The very next day the Associated Press reported that, "Many of the 500,000 people who crammed downtown Los Angeles on Saturday to protest legislation that would make criminals out of illegal immigrants learned where, when and even how to demonstrate from the Spanish-language media.

"For English-speaking America, the mass protests in Los Angeles and other U.S. cities over the past few days have been surprising for their size and seeming spontaneity."

"But they were organized, promoted or publicized for weeks by Spanish-language radio hosts and TV anchors as a demonstration of Hispanic pride and power."

The agenda behind the protests and their de-facto endorsement by the Bush administration is multifaceted.

Artificially manufactured race riots provide the perfect pretext to begin round-up and internment procedures that have been previously outlined in the REX 84 program and were cited in the recent Kellogg Brown and Root contract to construct detention camps which was given to them by Homeland Security.

In addition, swamping America with illegal immigrants balkanizes the country, lowers the standard of living and sinks America into second word status, necessary for the implementation of a Pax Americana FTAA system.

The fact that a Bush GOP lobbyist is behind the promotion of the protests comes as no surprise. Bush's blanket amnesty guest worker program will legalize all illegal felons at the behest of Vicente Fox.

Last edited by samcol; 04-14-2006 at 04:44 AM..
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcol
Why, you hire Bush's old PR firm of course. Doesn't it make you feel good that this whole mass of protests was the result of a propaganda campaign by Vicente Fox and *gasp* possibly by Bush's people as well. What's worse is it appears like they have gotten their way.

Isn't it strange also, that the LA Times article about this propaganda campaign is a only 3 months old yet has disappeared from the original site? The google cache confirms that the article did exist.
It looks like Rob Allyn could have written this NY Times "article", himself.......
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/bu...erland&emc=rss

DALLAS, Dec. 26 - Rob Allyn, the political consultant, meet Rob Allyn, the punching bag.
At least they're letting us know that they've consolidated the "message" into a bi-partisan effort to "eff" us over. We saw a hint of the "synergy" in the short lived, senate version of immigration reform, last week.

One more time.....as roachboy aptly describes it....America is a country controlled by TWO, right wing, corporatist political parties, with close, working relationships with international corporations and their executives and boards. <b>Get Used to It!</b>



Quote:
http://www.fleishman.com/news/pr051905.html
FLEISHMAN-HILLARD LAUNCHES NEW GLOBAL CAMPAIGN BUSINESS

"VOX Global MandateSM" To Focus Fleishman-Hillard's Worldwide Political Assets On Winning Campaigns For Corporations, Parties, Candidates & Causes In The New Global Democracy

Three Top Political Media, Polling & Public Affairs Firms, Republican & Democrat, Spearhead New International Division of Global Communications Leader

Washington, D.C., and London, May 19, 2005 – Fleishman-Hillard International Communications today launched VOX Global Mandate(SM) — a new global campaign, advertising, polling, political consulting, and public affairs business that will provide the election-winning expertise of leading political consultants — U.S. and international, Republican and Democrat — to corporations, candidates, political parties, democracy movements, issue advocacy campaigns, trade associations, and nonprofit causes around the world........

......Based on the principle that "In a world of ideas, voice is power," VOX Global Mandate will combine the international expertise of the three political firms with the global network and international public affairs and political expertise within Fleishman-Hillard's worldwide network of more than 2,000 professionals in 22 countries.

<b>VOX Global Mandate will be co-chaired by GOP consultant Rob Allyn of Allyn & Company;</b> Kevin Bell, Fleishman-Hillard's regional director for the United Kingdom and South Africa, and a former strategist/adviser to former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher; noted Democratic media guru Jim Margolis of GMMB; and New York/D.C. GOP political pollster and consultant Kieran Mahoney of Mercury Public Affairs. Each has more than 20 years of global campaign expertise, advising Fortune 500 CEOs, presidential candidates, prime ministers, U.S. senators, representatives, governors, mayors, political parties, and heads of state on five continents.

VOX Global Mandate will offer clients a complete package of state-of-the-art campaign services, including a behavioral approach to public opinion research, advertising, direct mail, and grassroots communication techniques that persuades public opinion on issues and ideas, advances the client's cause on public issues, and truly moves people to action and to influence public policy. The suite of advertising and market research services offered by the new company includes polling, focus groups, telemarketing, TV and radio advertising, print and outdoor campaign materials, direct mail, graphic design, broadcast production, media planning, and media buying. With GMMB's extensive in-house creative, editing and TV production studios in D.C.; Mercury's breakthrough polling capabilities; creative political media and direct mail by Allyn & Company, and the global media buying leverage of Omnicom (NYSE: OMC), the world's leading media, advertising, and public relations holding corporation, VOX Global offers clients a complete package of campaign tools.

In building its business, VOX Global Mandate will partner with Fleishman-Hillard’s global network of 80 offices on six continents to provide local, native-language, culture-specific public relations, public affairs, and government relations services in the emerging majority of democratic nations around the world. The firm will aid corporate clients seeking to solve public problems using the political campaign model, along with overseas political campaigns and democracy movements. Potential clients include industry groups, trade associations, corporations, private or family held businesses, political parties, candidates for national, state, or regional office, issue referenda, constitutional and ballot initiatives, NGOs and nonprofit organizations, charitable trusts, political movements, and government-sponsored education programs.

About Allyn & Company

Founded 22 years ago, Allyn & Company is an award-winning political media, public affairs and advertising/public relations firm. The agency serves Fortune 500 corporations, heads of state, trade associations, sports teams, and political causes in the U.S., Mexico, Asia, and Caribbean. Allyn & Company consistently ranks in revenues, expertise and winning track record as the No. 1 political consulting firm in Texas, the largest independently operated PR firm based in the region and a star performer in politics worldwide, with some 300 political victories and more than 50 national and regional awards for excellence in TV, radio and print advertising, public relations, direct mail, and graphic design. .......
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:51 AM   #3 (permalink)
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One more time.....as roachboy aptly describes it....America is a country controlled by TWO, right wing, corporatist political parties, with close, working relationships with international corporations and their executives and boards. Get Used to It!
One more time... America is a Democratic Republic. The TWO parties compete over the MAJORITY of Americans. The MAJORITY of Americans are to the right of you.

Just because Roachboy and you are out of the mainstream does not mean both parties are not. They are not ultra-left because there quite simply are not enough people there to run a campaign on.
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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This is an interesting point - whether our ideas of "left" and "right" are on an absolute scale of all possible political systems or just within a balance relative to the average voter in this country. Left and right here can be completely different from left and right in some other country.
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
One more time... America is a Democratic Republic. The TWO parties compete over the MAJORITY of Americans. The MAJORITY of Americans are to the right of you.

Just because Roachboy and you are out of the mainstream does not mean both parties are not. They are not ultra-left because there quite simply are not enough people there to run a campaign on.
Seaver, speaking only for myself, I would like to know if you think that I am "out of the mainstream" because:

1.)host is uninformed about current U.S. political and news events

2.)host is misinformed by a liberal media with a "leftist" anti-corporate agenda.

3.)host simply repeats left-wing talking points and has no opinions of his own.

4.)host is informed and knowledgable about political news and events, but draws incorrect or inaccurate conclusions.

5.)host is teamed with the liberal media for the purpose of shaping events and opinions, such as influencing the U.S. public to be averse to an attack on Iran. (see another posters opinion that describes this scenario: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...5&postcount=16 )

Seaver, is the difference in the opinions of American poll respondents, as to the "correctness" and accuracy of judgment , related to the decision to invade Iraq, and the overall job approval rating of president Bush, today, vs. three years ago,
more about people becoming aware of what they could have known three years ago, or is it the influence of the "message" of the liberal media, and folks like.....me?

I submit that informed opinion is the only thing standing in the way of a political right, bent on corporatist control, in the U.S., and in the world, the only thing that has a chance to thwart well financed, "PR" campaigns.

These corporatist folks invest money to influence the majority to think and act, counter to their own best interests, and they seem confident, that, when they "catapult the propaganda", they are getting their money's worth....go figure!
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertuber
This is an interesting point - whether our ideas of "left" and "right" are on an absolute scale of all possible political systems or just within a balance relative to the average voter in this country. Left and right here can be completely different from left and right in some other country.
Exactly.

As my history teacher put it, back in the French Revolution, when left/right came about as ways of describing political ideas, both of what we would call "left" and "right" would have been on the left.

In another country (Soviet Union? China?) they would be to the right.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Samcol, I could be a little slow on the uptake today, but I fail to see your point. Getting one's position out, and more importantly, having things your way, is to a great extent the result how successful your PR efforts are. For each voting American delving into the facts underlying the issues, beaucoup more get their point of view as the result of the implementation of PR strategies. "Propaganda" is a term used by the loser in a PR war. With power and money in the bargain, it would be naive to think that Fox would stay away from a firm in the area with links to the administration and with proven success (imagine being able to successfully sell GW to the electorate).
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Old 04-14-2006, 02:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
Samcol, I could be a little slow on the uptake today, but I fail to see your point. Getting one's position out, and more importantly, having things your way, is to a great extent the result how successful your PR efforts are. For each voting American delving into the facts underlying the issues, beaucoup more get their point of view as the result of the implementation of PR strategies. "Propaganda" is a term used by the loser in a PR war. With power and money in the bargain, it would be naive to think that Fox would stay away from a firm in the area with links to the administration and with proven success (imagine being able to successfully sell GW to the electorate).
I guess the problem I have with it is that the media is portraying this as some massive grass roots uprising for civil rights by Mexican immigrants. When actually it's big governments and big corporations lobbying to make their slave labor/indentured servitude practice legal. What's even worse is the very party that claims to be big on border security and immigration is actually behind PR campaigns to sway the masses in favor of this. We have a few people taking advantage of huge mass of uneducated non-english speaking foreigners who think they are fighting for their rights, when in fact they are fighting to legalize their own enslavement.

It's no longer "our" government. We the people can no longer lobby the government. Only foreign governments like the dubai ports thing, china, and mexico can lobby our government. Time and time again they go against the wishes of the American people.

You don't see a problem with Vicente Fox successfully lobbying against the wishes of the American people?
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcol
I guess the problem I have with it is that the media is portraying this as some massive grass roots uprising for civil rights by Mexican immigrants. When actually it's big governments and big corporations lobbying to make their slave labor/indentured servitude practice legal. What's even worse is the very party that claims to be big on border security and immigration is actually behind PR campaigns to sway the masses in favor of this. We have a few people taking advantage of huge mass of uneducated non-english speaking foreigners who think they are fighting for their rights, when in fact they are fighting to legalize their own enslavement.

It's no longer "our" government. We the people can no longer lobby the government. Only foreign governments like the dubai ports thing, china, and mexico can lobby our government. Time and time again they go against the wishes of the American people.

You don't see a problem with Vicente Fox successfully lobbying against the wishes of the American people?
This is an interesting concept. Do you have any information to indicate that these new immigrants are to be excluded from minimum wage, or ineligible for benefits, or anything else?

It's just that I'm a little fuzzy on how they are to be "enslaved." Especially since they can leave whenever they want to.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelyLoins
This is an interesting concept. Do you have any information to indicate that these new immigrants are to be excluded from minimum wage, or ineligible for benefits, or anything else?

It's just that I'm a little fuzzy on how they are to be "enslaved." Especially since they can leave whenever they want to.
I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

Edward James Olmos was in town a while back showing a movie called "Walkout". It was an exceptional movie, and he had a lot to say about it. I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested.


I know that the Mexican American community is strong enough to do this themselves. I *hope* that this is simply a protest motivated by civil rights, an d not some PR campaign.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I heard about "Walkout" today. I hope to catch it when it becomes available here. Thanks, Will.
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Old 04-14-2006, 08:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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"Seaver, is the difference in the opinions of American poll respondents, as to the "correctness" and accuracy of judgment , related to the decision to invade Iraq, and the overall job approval rating of president Bush, today, vs. three years ago,
more about people becoming aware of what they could have known three years ago, or is it the influence of the "message" of the liberal media, and folks like.....me?"

..straight from the mouth of left winger. The masses are just too ignorant. They can't see what I see, when I see it - they need people like me to show them the light.

The answer to this question would be neither, with a little help from the latter. The relatively stagnant progress in the last year an half or so, would explain the opinion polls. Not that surprising.
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330
"Seaver, is the difference in the opinions of American poll respondents, as to the "correctness" and accuracy of judgment , related to the decision to invade Iraq, and the overall job approval rating of president Bush, today, vs. three years ago,
more about people becoming aware of what they could have known three years ago, or is it the influence of the "message" of the liberal media, and folks like.....me?"

..straight from the mouth of left winger. The masses are just too ignorant. They can't see what I see, when I see it - they need people like me to show them the light.

The answer to this question would be neither, with a little help from the latter. The relatively stagnant progress in the last year an half or so, would explain the opinion polls. Not that surprising.
Just so it will be clearer to other readers....the comments that I made that matthew330 apparently "pushed back" from, were in reaction to these comments.....in a post that I linked to, in <b>5.)</b> in my last post:
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...5&postcount=16

......"Now the real question should be does the U.S. plan to attack Iran. That I would have to say is no, the American people have been demoralized by the constant attacks on the Iraq invasion by the left and their press-allies long enough that it has crippled our ability to react militarily to any conflict."
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew330
..straight from the mouth of left winger. The masses are just too ignorant. They can't see what I see, when I see it - they need people like me to show them the light.
It is quite unnecessary to put words into someone else's mouth - particularly when you do it in a way that is intended to be inflammatory and insulting. Don't do it again. Host can speak for himself, and has. That is not what he said.
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Old 04-15-2006, 12:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by host
Seaver, speaking only for myself, I would like to know if you think that I am "out of the mainstream" because:

1.)host is uninformed about current U.S. political and news events

2.)host is misinformed by a liberal media with a "leftist" anti-corporate agenda.

3.)host simply repeats left-wing talking points and has no opinions of his own.

4.)host is informed and knowledgable about political news and events, but draws incorrect or inaccurate conclusions.

5.)host is teamed with the liberal media for the purpose of shaping events and opinions, such as influencing the U.S. public to be averse to an attack on Iran. (see another posters opinion that describes this scenario: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...5&postcount=16 )

Seaver, is the difference in the opinions of American poll respondents, as to the "correctness" and accuracy of judgment , related to the decision to invade Iraq, and the overall job approval rating of president Bush, today, vs. three years ago,
more about people becoming aware of what they could have known three years ago, or is it the influence of the "message" of the liberal media, and folks like.....me?

I submit that informed opinion is the only thing standing in the way of a political right, bent on corporatist control, in the U.S., and in the world, the only thing that has a chance to thwart well financed, "PR" campaigns.

These corporatist folks invest money to influence the majority to think and act, counter to their own best interests, and they seem confident, that, when they "catapult the propaganda", they are getting their money's worth....go figure!
host I think the answer is none of the above, unlike you I do not see agents posting on these formus and that includes your number 5 (but thanks for thinking of me). I think your reasons are deeply personal and I'll leave it at that.
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Old 04-15-2006, 08:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

Edward James Olmos was in town a while back showing a movie called "Walkout". It was an exceptional movie, and he had a lot to say about it. I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested.


I know that the Mexican American community is strong enough to do this themselves. I *hope* that this is simply a protest motivated by civil rights, an d not some PR campaign.
Will, SteelyLoins succintly responded to Samcol's comments before I got back to review the thread, so let me take a turn for him, by responding to you.

I would like to see some hard evidence, as opposed to your anecdotal personal observations, which demonstrates that the "great service" rendered to our economy is greater than the cost to the U.S. in Medicaid benefits, etc., and that employers generally disregard federal minimum wage and other laws protecting employees.

Assuming you can provide it, the real issue, for me at least, relates to your suggestion that returning to Mexico isn't a viable option for illegal immigrants.
This presupposes that it was a valid option for them to illegally enter the U.S. in the first place, just because things weren't going well for them in their home country. To state the obvious, those who have illegally entered the U.S. have done so in violation of U.S. law. Mexico has made their own economic problem an even bigger U.S. problem by opting to encourage illegal immigration by its citizens into the U.S. as a solution.

If I'm in another country illegally, I expect to have no rights, and to be punished or extradited. Why should someone living in Mexico, or in any other country for that matter, receive any different treatment from us here?

Legal immigration by Mexicans or citizens of other countries is O.K. Illegal immigration is not, and taken to its logical extreme, effectively destroys U.S. sovereignty.
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Old 04-15-2006, 08:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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i have come to almost enjoy those moments when someone to the right of me tries to cast me out of places--the "mainstream" the country, etc.. these moments make me laugh. i dont take them as personally as host does. there are just funny. arguments like seaver's above seem to me little more than variants on the old adage:

eat shit--a hundred million flies cant be wrong.

and to have about as much power.
which is why the arguments are funny, you see.

anyway---
on the general level, i find it strange that folk from the right are concerned about this fiction of national sovereignty when it comes to transnational labor flows (legal or not, it hardly matters) but were not so concerned about it during the phase of the reorganization of production processes in ways that effectively erased most national boundaries.
it seems that the logic, such as it is, behind this is that what firms do is a priori ok, not a problem, no questions to be asked.
maybe that's because the outcomes feed consumers sense of entitlement--for example, in a supermakret produce aisle, you encounter produce from a wide range of countries presented to you in a series as if all was interchangeable---you should be able to constantly get all produce and the effective erasing the reality of seasons is simply a consequence of the imperious desires of consumers---who could imagine themselves to benefit from a highly ordered global system as they select which gas-ripened flavor free bit of produce, were the produce aisle not such an engrossing place---and if abstractions like national soveignty were being progressively erased through the modes of economic activity that enable the range of produce you want to be continually available, then so be it. convenience uber alles.

besides, the production and distribution systems behind that converge on the abstract completeness of a superarket produce aisle vanish behind the unity of the presentation of consumer goods.....and so constitute no problems.

but workers are, apparently, different from that.
the equation of legality of labor flows and national sovereignty seems to me a joke.
maybe these flows are mostly a psychological problem for conservatives insofar as they indicate the complexity of such flows and present them with the obvious fact that the american economy is not self-contained, that it is not even necessarily dominant when you look at the details. or maybe the problem is that labor flows are more difficult to erase behind the unity of outputs.

as for the op and the extension of it into the manufacturing of protests. movements, etc: this is by now an old tactic. tobacco corporations did it. the christian coalition pioneered it. pr firms rationalized it. anyone can buy it.
a such, the only clear motivation that i can see behind the fact of this kind of social-action model is the undercutting of the meaning of public protest.
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:29 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

Edward James Olmos was in town a while back showing a movie called "Walkout". It was an exceptional movie, and he had a lot to say about it. I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested.


I know that the Mexican American community is strong enough to do this themselves. I *hope* that this is simply a protest motivated by civil rights, an d not some PR campaign.

Will, I love ya, and we agree on many issues. However, ILLEGAL is just that ILLEGAL. Once you cross over into this country ILLEGALLY you have no rights.

I am tired of people making excuses for ILLEGALS to be here, there is no excuse.

Yes, they take jobs.... and it is a concern but there are deeper concerns for me.

They are:

The BILLIONS the cost taxpayers for healthcare, housing, the criminal system and so on.

Hell, I posted here the law Congress and the president signed giving $1 BILLION to SouthWestern hospitals (that claimed they were going broke treating illegals) for FREE healthcare to illegals.

They are freaking ILLEGAL and they get FREE healthcare??????? I work my ass off, go to school and when I got treated I have my credit destroyed and sit on $25,000 worth of bills????? WTF, is that fair to me a TAXPAYING LEGALLY BORN US CITIZEN??????

Is it fair that some of these ILLEGALS get to use tax payers services? Where I work we have an ILLEGAL who has been here 25 years and he abused the system to get "detoxed" once a month for about 6 months consecutively (until he was banned). He would stay, get medicated, sleep, eat and leave. So the taxpayers of Summit County and Akron paid close to $2500 for this ILLEGAL, who paid NOTHING.

This same ILLEGAL uses our drop-in as his own little hotel and demands Detox every night. HE'll go to the hospitals in Akron and claim he needs "detoxed" and they call us having a doctor tell us to treat him (until the Dr. finds out his past). How much is that costing taxpayers??????

And this is in Akron, Ohio, I can only imagine how bad it is in border states. It's no wonder services like these are closing down because of lack of funds.

How about crime??????

In Hartville, Ohio a farm that works closely with a Jam/Jelly company hired ILLEGALS. 3 of them got trashed held up a convienence store shot and killed 2 adults and 3 kids. These ILLEGALS were caught, but instead of facing trial for murder they got deported back to Mexico WITH NO FINES and were back in the US a year later. If you need proof I'll scan the newspaper article for you.)

I know for a fact having lived in Phoenix, this is nothing new.

WTF?????????

Legal immigration is what this country was founded on and is our life blood. But ILLEGAL immigration needs to be stopped.

I have no qualms against a SHOOT TO KILL policy on the border. I figure we shoot and kill a couple illegals trying to come over.... that will deter a few of the 1000's that come over daily.

They have it so bad in Mexico, then they need to stay the fuck in Mexico and find ways to change their own damned country and not come over here, live off taxpayers and cry how we don't accommodate them or that we are prejudiced against them, or that we don't bow down and kiss their asses and wipe them as they shit all over our country.

BTW come to Akron, I'll show you the "shacks" Yoder's farms has set up for ILLEGALS.

As for "slaves" They fucking CHOSE to come here ILLEGALLY....... WTF are we supposed to do baby their fucking asses, further erode our economy and services and tax dollars to make sure they have the same rights as people who work their asses off and were born here or went through the proper systems and became LEGAL???????

If that's the case, I'll rescind my US citizenship, move to Mexico and come back ILLEGALLY....... Hell, I'd get free healthcare and people more worried about how I, as an illegal am treated than I do now as a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. I'd get more and pay no taxes?????? Hell yeah sign me up for that.
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Last edited by pan6467; 04-15-2006 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 04-15-2006, 11:41 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm amused with the way I'm attacked for stating the obvious. That I'm a common right winger who seeks to personally attack everyone who disagrees with me.

Yeah maybe millions of flies eat shit, however the term "right" and "left" when talking about American politics are relative to who lives in the US. Therefore two parties who represent opposite sides of the US populace can not be both on one side but on opposite sides of the bell curve of politics otherwise one of the two would not survive.

Therefore, in order to survive one must find itself representing the "left" of America. The relative conservative slant of the "left" party (strictly compared to European countries) shows that the left party in America relies on keeping as many people in it's realm appeased. To do that the party must stay as closely as possible to the politics of the majority of the people.

Therefore, if the majority of the people in a bell curve type of situation are so conservative to the point that you consider the liberals as conservative... you are out of the mainstream.

While it may be true you can't see the forest from the trees, you also can not judge relativism from the outside.. it scews as the view changes realtive to the comparison.
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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seaver: i dont actually have much of a disagreement with the portion of your argument that you just elaborated on--all seems straightforward--
i just thought the way you chose to set it up in your first post to this thread (with reference to me, for some reason) was funny. i can see how you'd take the post as an attack, but i meant it as far less pointed than you seem to have read it as being. a passing banter joke between beers 5 and 6 kind of thing.
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

Edward James Olmos was in town a while back showing a movie called "Walkout". It was an exceptional movie, and he had a lot to say about it. I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested.


I know that the Mexican American community is strong enough to do this themselves. I *hope* that this is simply a protest motivated by civil rights, an d not some PR campaign.
Some of the above begs further discussion. In your example, do you remember any LEGAL immigrants who were in such a situation? The entire reason the illegals are subject to such conditions is that they're afraid to go to the authorities. Grant them citizenship, and what you will get is millions more people who "won't do XXXX kind of work." And who will be very insistent upon receiving government largesse, which would more accurately be called taxpayer largesse.

I once hired a LEGAL immigrant who quit upon receiving her first paycheck, when she saw that I was withholding taxes from it. To her, taxes were to be paid by everyone else. Come to think of it, she sounded like a great many Americans.

Your anecdotal evidence also bothers me in that you say your "slaves" are trapped economically, but they can still send money home. In my observations, some of them only come to the US for the growing season, and spend the rest of the year in their home countries. It surprises me that you have not met any of those.

Lastly, I don't limit my discussion of illegals to Mexicans, as you do. The US is unlikely to be able to absorb every inhabitant of Mexico, China, Vietnam, or the subsaharan countries who thinks the opportunities are better here.

Which is why amnesty is such a horrible precedent.
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
As for "slaves" They fucking CHOSE to come here ILLEGALLY....... WTF are we supposed to do baby their fucking asses, further erode our economy and services and tax dollars to make sure they have the same rights as people who work their asses off and were born here or went through the proper systems and became LEGAL???????

If that's the case, I'll rescind my US citizenship, move to Mexico and come back ILLEGALLY....... Hell, I'd get free healthcare and people more worried about how I, as an illegal am treated than I do now as a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. I'd get more and pay no taxes?????? Hell yeah sign me up for that.
I know your remark was sarcastic, but I'll play along and caution you against one thing: Moving to Mexico and expecting any government benefits, even if you go there legally.

What they say WE should do, and what they do to their own non-citizens, are two VERY different things.
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
I know your remark was sarcastic, but I'll play along and caution you against one thing: Moving to Mexico and expecting any government benefits, even if you go there legally.

What they say WE should do, and what they do to their own non-citizens, are two VERY different things.
Please explain what you mean by this. (It is my intention to move to Mexico and from what I have read differs from your statement). Thanks.
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Old 04-15-2006, 04:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
I would like to see some hard evidence, as opposed to your anecdotal personal observations, which demonstrates that the "great service" rendered to our economy is greater than the cost to the U.S. in Medicaid benefits, etc., and that employers generally disregard federal minimum wage and other laws protecting employees.
Every time I take a bite of an apple, I am doing so because of the work of ILLEGAL immigrint work. That's not anecdotal. Every time Someone wants to go up to Sonoma to enjoy a wine tour, they reap the reward of using illegal workers. The entire California agriculture economy would collapse without illegal Mexican workers. What does that leave us with? Hollywood? Tech jobs that are being drained overseas? As a Californian, I respect their role in our society and our economy. To ignore what they do is to ignore the obvious. So how do we treat them? We have people that monitor our already deadly borders with the intent of turning them in. The next day, those same people go to the supermarket and buy food to feed their family. They go home to a well maintained yard. They sit down in a house that was built by illegal work. To me, it doesn't scan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
Assuming you can provide it, the real issue, for me at least, relates to your suggestion that returning to Mexico isn't a viable option for illegal immigrants.
They do return. They have to come here to afford to live down there. Take Daniel Hernandez, for example. This man was born in Mexico and recieved a Mexican diploma (about a 1st grade reading level in spanish), and tried to find work between the ages of 5 and 13 in Mexico, with no success. His family was starving (and please don't tell me this is anecdotal), so he HAD to come to the only place where he could get a job: San Jose, CA. He crossed the border with 17 other people. 15 survived the crossing, btw. As a 14 year old, he worked here for 2 years, saved his money, and went home. Did he ever break any US law other than immigration? Absolutly not. Did he spend much of the money he made at his $3.50 an hour job on rent, food, and a car right here in the US? Yes. You see it seems like they are draining our econemy on the surface, but they are actually putting more work in than they are taking money out. That's good for us.

The Mexicans return to Mexico until the small amount of money they could save for their families runs out, then they have to either find work in Mexico, which is very difficult, or return to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
This presupposes that it was a valid option for them to illegally enter the U.S. in the first place, just because things weren't going well for them in their home country. To state the obvious, those who have illegally entered the U.S. have done so in violation of U.S. law. Mexico has made their own economic problem an even bigger U.S. problem by opting to encourage illegal immigration by its citizens into the U.S. as a solution.
That may be, but if you're family was going to starve, what would you do? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not willing to simply shut them out and say, "deal with it on your own".
Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
If I'm in another country illegally, I expect to have no rights, and to be punished or extradited. Why should someone living in Mexico, or in any other country for that matter, receive any different treatment from us here?
Read my first response. If a lot of US citizens immigrated into Mexico illegally and supported their econemy, they'd probalby throw us a party (or fiesta). They come up here, and we treat them like they are less than human.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loganmule
Legal immigration by Mexicans or citizens of other countries is O.K. Illegal immigration is not, and taken to its logical extreme, effectively destroys U.S. sovereignty.
We should allow more of them to come here legally then.


This is nothing but a big threadjack. The reason this thread is here is to suggest that the massive protests lately were actually planned as PR. If anyone wants to discuss the finer points of immigration, I'll gladly start a thread.

Last edited by Willravel; 04-15-2006 at 04:47 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 04-15-2006, 05:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Please do, Will. This is obviously topical news and deserves it's own thread.

Pen
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Old 04-15-2006, 08:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Quote:
Please explain what you mean by this. (It is my intention to move to Mexico and from what I have read differs from your statement). Thanks.
Most people (at least the ones I know) have heard dozens of stories regarding land ownership, paying for health care, and the rights (or lack thereof) of non-citizens. A brief seach yielded the following. If you need more information than this, it should at least get you pointed in the right direction.

Link

Quote:
The Mexican Solution


Frank J. Gaffney, Jr., Washington Times, April 4, 2006

{snip}
If you think these critics are mad about U.S. immigration policy now, imagine how upset they would be if we adopted an approach far more radical than the bill they rail against that was adopted last year by the House of Representatives—namely, the way Mexico treats illegal aliens.

In fact, as a just-published paper by the Center for Security Policy’s J. Michael Waller points out, under a constitution first adopted in 1917 and subsequently amended, Mexico deals harshly not only with illegal immigrants. It treats even legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and foreign investors in ways that would, by the standards of those who carp about U.S. immigration policy, have to be called “racist” and “xenophobic.”

For example, according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:

•Pursuant to Article 33, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

•Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.”

{snip}

•Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, “Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.”

•Article 11 guarantees federal protection against “undesirable aliens resident in the country.” What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen’s arrests. Article 16 states, “In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.” In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right.

•The Mexican constitution states that foreigners—not just illegal immigrants—may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, “the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action.”

As the immigration debate in the Senate moves into a decisive phase this week, legislators who believe America's southern border must be secured, the nation's existing immigration laws enforced and illegal aliens not rewarded with permanent residency and a direct path to citizenship are being sharply criticized and, in some cases, defamed as bigots and xenophobes.

Yet, even their maximalist positions generally pale in comparison with the treatment authorized by the Mexican constitution.

So the next time such legislators -- and the majority of Americans for whom they speak -- are assaulted by Mexican officials, undocumented aliens waving Mexican flags in mass demonstrations here in the United States, clergy and self-described humanitarians, businessmen and other advocates of illegal immigration, ask them this: Would they favor having the U.S. impose the same restrictions on immigrants -- legal and illegal -- that Mexico imposes on their counterparts there?
{snip}

Frank J. Gaffney, Jr. is the president of the Center for Security Policy and a columnist for The Washington Times.

Link

Quote:
{snip}
A report by the Center for US-Mexican Studies and the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies reported 2,000 human rights violations of Central American migrants in the south of Mexico between 1998 and 1999. The US Committee for Refugees reported that, in 2001, Mexico deported 1,000 migrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America to Guatemala simply because they came to Mexico through Guatemala.

Mexico detained 85 percent of the people who applied for asylum in 2001. They were held in a detention facility in Mexico City that eventually became so overcrowded, it no longer met established international minimum standards. That same year, Mexico arrested 87 Christian Iraqis, men, women and children, in Tijuana. Because the detention facility in Mexico City was overcrowded, they were shipped to a naval base in Campeche, on the other side of the country. After several months in detention, they were allowed to apply for asylum--in the United States, not Mexico. At least 355 migrants died trying to get into Mexico in 2001.

Mexico launched Plan Sur in July of that same year. Thousands of soldiers were deployed to the southern states of Chiapas and Oaxaca to patrol the border. In 2002, over 57,000 illegal immigrants were arrested in and deported from Chiapas. They were the ones in groups that had no "human passports"--women who have sex, willingly or unwillingly, with Mexican officials as the price of entry for their group.
http://www.novahomeloans.com/cms/ind...3/93352/93358/

Quote:
The Mexican Constitution vests ownership of all land, water, natural resources, and airspace in the Mexican nation.

Therefore, land ownership is limited to surface rights and to Mexicans by birth, naturalized citizens, and Mexican companies.

Mexico's constitution restricts or prohibits direct foreign ownership of land in the prohibited zones, which includes 100 kilometers along the border, 50 kilometers along the coast, and all of Baja California.
There are periodic situations in which land is offered for sale to foreigners. There can be official promises that the title is secure, but it isn't. Once the property is developed, there is a good chance that the Mexican government will discover a "problem with title." I have in-laws who had their Mexican home seized by the Mexican government about 30 years ago. They usually wait ten or twenty years between seizures of the land, in order to give the gullible a chance to forget what happened to the last foreigners who thought they had purchased Mexican land. And to build homes and hotels the government can confiscate.

The most recent one I heard of is Punta Banda/Baja Beach and Tennis Club.


http://www.mexican-car-insurance.com/Mex_info.htm

Quote:
Automobile insurance issued outside the country is not valid in Mexico, and you must obtain insurance from a Mexican company. You must do this at the border before entering Mexico. As in other parts of Latin America, if there is an accident, both drivers can be held responsible pending an investigation. They can be jailed and their vehicles seized if there is no proof of ability to pay. In case of serious personal injury, both drivers may be jailed in any event.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/regions/am...256900006932A2

Quote:
Amnesty International has documented an increase in the number of cases of "disappearance" in Mexico reported to the organization over the last four years [1]. In most cases, there is strong, or even incontrovertible, evidence of official participation in carrying out "disappearances", yet those responsible continue to benefit from impunity. The organisation believes that unless immediate and active steps are adopted to halt this trend the Mexican government could be fuelling the return of widespread and systematic state-sponsored "disappearances" which beset the country during the 1970s and early 1980s when hundreds "disappeared" there.

Most of the latest "disappearances" reported to Amnesty International took place in the context of alleged counter-insurgency and anti-narcotics operations and victims include members of peasant organizations, indigenous people, students and teachers.

In many cases, they "disappeared" following their witnessed detention by members of the armed and police forces. However, their detention is then repeatedly denied by the security forces and the Mexican Government. Following national and international campaigns on their behalf, some have reappeared weeks or months later bearing signs of torture. In a small number of cases, the bodies of the "disappeared" were subsequently recovered with evidence that they were extrajudicially executed.

Neither the victims nor their relatives appear to have any effective recourse before the law in Mexico for seeking redress for these gross human rights violations, particularly when the armed forces are involved. The military jurisdiction under which these cases invariably fall when there is suspected army involvement has continued to provide a blanket of impunity for the perpetrators.
And yet, the recent demonstrators in the US waved Mexican flags.

The following link alone makes all of the complaints about Camp X-ray appear laughable. All of the recent demonstrators should read it as well.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/...256F5C0047BAFD

I probably shouldn't write any more, because doing so just increases the scorn I feel for those demonstrators. However, I suggest that after you move to Mexico that you refrain from participating in any demonstrations.

Last edited by SteelyLoins; 04-15-2006 at 08:54 PM..
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Old 04-15-2006, 10:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Please explain what you mean by this. (It is my intention to move to Mexico and from what I have read differs from your statement). Thanks.
pssst....Elphaba, <a href="http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/chreares.html">this is where</a> the "rest of us" are headed....(we are concerned about the prospects for the water and pollution level in the lake, but it's doing better since the rains returned....)

The bold print, in "Poorsouls" post sez it all.....and...if you're near retirement or you have some wealth to sustain you....
Quote:
http://www.prudentbear.com/bearschat...snsa=A#M383310
RE: What part of Mexico? PoorSoul

At present, I am living in Ajijic (about 45 minutes south of Guadalajara and on the shores of Mexico's largest lake, Lake Chapala), home of about 15,000 retired Gringos and Canucks.

In my seven years in Mexico, I have basically spent half the time in the Lake Chapala area and half the time in Mazatlan, on the Pacific Coast.

I prefer Mazatlan, but it is very hot and humid there from June through October. Lake Chapala is in the mountains, elevation about 5,000 feet, and has an excellent year-around climate.

On the downside, there are just too many friggin' old expats here in Ajijic - also known as Gringoville and God's Waiting Room.

I came to Mexico for the climate and cost of living. But I quickly realized that there is a third reason I to move here from Canada or the U.S. - <b>there is more laughing out loud in Mexico than you will hear in a month up north.</b>

Also, the "family values" are REAL here, not just some slogan from the religious right.

Final point: During the first three and a half years in Mexico, I could get about six pesos for the Canuck buck. Now the loonie is worth about nine pesos. That means my nest-egg (from selling a mortgage-free house, plus a hefty registered retirement savings plan, plus a six-figure buyout from the newspaper (boneyard of broken dreams) where I used to toil IS NOW WORTH FIFTY PERCENT MORE THAN WHEN I MOVED HERE.

Lovin' the simple life here, amigos.
Fred made the leap......
Quote:
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm
<b>Fred's House</b>
March 9, 2006

Ha! Vi and I just closed on a house in Jocotepec, the only remaining Mexican town on the north shore of Lake Chapala, near Guadalajara. We’re going to call it The Pancho Villa. It has a big ratty-looking walled-in yard with gynormous twisted orange trees, probably planted by Methuselah’s granddaddy, that drop oranges all over the place without regard to environmental piety. Flowers erupt everywhere, never asking permission. It’s wonderful. I hate trimmed gardens. They remind me of the kind of over-organized desk that I associate with compulsive hand-washers.

On top is a mirador, which means a concrete place like a tennis court that lost its net. You can sit up there in the wind and sun and watch large brown mountains lolling about. Or you can fall off it. We’re going to put in a railing, though. You can also watch sunsets, which are showy hereabouts, or thunderstorms and get electrocuted.

The Pancho Villa is in almost the last street of houses short of the mountains so in the mornings you hear roosters propositioning hens. Burros yell “Eeeeeeeeeeeee-honk!” like hairy saxophones. If you want a burro here, you just get one and put it where you think it ought to be. You don’t need a rabies card, farm-animal zoning, and a federal license saying that you know how to operate a burro.

The lady from whom we bought it (and she is a lady, in the almost-forgotten sense of the word) is an Englishwoman of the generation that fought WWII. They don’t make those any longer, but ought to. Since the furnishings come with the house, it was great to find that her taste was also our taste. Maybe it feels like home to me because I grew up on Kipling and Alice and suchlike British tales.

Now, I get mail saying, “What’s it like to live in Mexico, Fred? Isn’t it full of, you know, deadly viruses?” Well, yes, but they’re optional. If you buy a little plastic bucket of yogurt, an envelope comes with it that says, “Deadly Viruses.” You don’t have to eat them. You can give them to a passing child.

Anyway, life in Messico. The country still works on a distributed paradiggem. That means that if you want a quart of milk, you walk a block to where there’s a little Pedro-and-Maria store that probably used to be a living room and now it’s a store. If you want a donut, you walk two blocks in another direction to the bread shop. You tell Conchis that you want two of those gre-t-t big ones with clumps of maple sugar or something on top and you chat with her a bit because that’s how it’s done. Then you go back home and chomp on them.

See, it’s because Mexico is still primitive. Pretty soon it will get modern. Then it will have a shopping center three miles out of town with a Mall-Wart that will close down all the little shops in Joco. Then you will drive fifteen minutes, fight other angry unhappy people for a parking spot, and save seven cents on your donut. And maybe die on the way back, trying to eat a donut while using a cell phone. (Every cloud….)

We’ve all heard old guys talking about how great it was to live in little towns out of Norman Rockwell (or, as I guess it would be here, Piedrapozo). Well, it was great. Not too dynamic maybe, but especially swell for kids. A lot of Mexico is still like that. In the US the most important things are efficiency and making money, which is why it is real efficient and has lots of money and all sorts of technology. There is a definite upside to money.

Mexico isn’t so hot at any of those things, but it has a certain livability to it. It’s more personal. Most parents recognize their children on sight, people know each other, and towns go in for huge seething festivals for their patron saints, or because it’s Easter, or maybe just Wednesday. A Mexican doesn’t need much prodding to launch a fiesta. In Joco on fiesta nights the plaza is so jammed that it takes twenty minutes to cross it. You’ve got three bands going at once and kids on dad’s shoulders and fireworks fizzing and whirling on tall wicker castillos. Most of it would be illegal up north. So would everything else, though. Consistency is a Nordic virtue, much overrated. There has to be a reason why intelligent people want to live with so many rules, but I don't know what it is....
There are better places for American's to reside, than we allow ourselves to consider...
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Old 04-16-2006, 06:04 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I've got nothing against this particular conversation, but if the original topic is dead, I'm going to lock this. Counting down...

Everyone, host started a new thread .
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Old 04-16-2006, 11:36 AM   #29 (permalink)
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My apologies for the thread jack.
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:57 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Just for the sake of thoroughness, I have talked to a few real estate people. You can now buy US title insurance for property in Mexico. That goes a long way toward security.

Also, some Americans are buying where I would have thought they wouldn't be allowed to, so maybe the laws I quoted have changed.

Just trying to maintain accuracy.
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