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Old 10-05-2006, 09:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Tallyfla
the fjordman report

I just happened upon this guys blog today. This entry is a long one so I've presented the intro, and what I see as the crux of the entry. Please feel free to follow the link and read the entire article. http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...r-another.html
Quote:
The following account is written by a European who wishes your country well, partly because I like it and partly because I, unlike too many of my countrymen, understand that the USA is still the best insurance we have for a civilized world order. It worries me all the more to see that many of the same negative trends that are threatening to destroy Europe are also present in the US.
....
There is a reason why some of the largest Islamic organizations in the USA came out in support of the rallies in major cities in support of illegal immigrants. Muslims see this as a way of weakening the Great Satan. And they are right. Americans need to understand just how much is at stake here. We are probably, as President Bush himself has hinted at, in the early stages of a world war with Islam. Muslims are working to get nuclear weapons and are openly calling for the physical destruction of the West. Your enemies are watching the way you are handling the illegal situation, and they are not impressed. Do you think the North Koreans or the Iranians are scared of a country that allows itself to be intimidated and held hostage by a bunch of Mexicans who shouldn’t even be in the country in the first place?

When you’re a superpower, the line of separation between domestic and foreign policy hardly exists. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was impressed by the way Ronald Reagan handled an attempt of blackmail by the civil air traffic controllers. He simply fired them. This signalled to your enemies abroad that you were not going to give into blackmail anywhere.

What is at stake here is your credibility as a superpower. In the longer run, it could be your physical security from nuclear attacks, perhaps even your very survival as a coherent nation state.

We are facing decades of what could potentially become the deadliest war in human history, where the very survival of Western civilization and perhaps human civilization in general hangs in the balance. We cannot win this without you.

You are the indispensable nation, and if you break down, the rest of the planet is in serious trouble. Europe will have to concentrate on just surviving, India has Islamic problems or her own, Russia is neither willing nor able to lead a fight against Islam, and China doesn’t care. It may even prefer a conflict that will eliminate its Western rivals.

The major obstacle to the agenda of Islamic world domination is the USA. The issue of illegal immigration is not about your golf courses, your lawns or your nannies, it’s about whether your children and grandchildren will grow up facing another American Century or another American civil war. And by extension, whether large parts of the world will be following sharia law.
Why is it that a European has a better grasp on the problems facing america than most americans? Why is it there are so many that just don't believe this? Is it because of a hatred for bush and his policies? Is it blissful ignorance? or is it just plain disbelief that an entire group of people want us dead just for being who we are?
I see it enough, the left whitewashing the vitrol spewed from leaders in the muslim world. The calls for the anahilation of israel. calls for "true" believers to fight everything western - the duty to kill an american today. Just yesterday the saudi interior minister blamed the west for terrorism in a speech calling to fight extremists http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1283
Quote:
The enemies of the Muslims have used Muslims and Arabs to corrupt Islam and the Arabs. I don't think any of you present denies this fact...My brothers, the danger is even greater. Even those people have become tools in the hands of the enemies. Unless we face reality with truth, courage, and evidence, and if we do not stop all the transgressors, who try to distort Islam with their claims of reform and their corrupt progress - this will be dangerous. These people have been tempted by the West, and have been employed in its service. We are familiar with their relations with foreign elements. We are fighting them and will continue to fight them, and we will cut off their tongues.
- In a speech about fighting extremism WE are the enemy! - But this thread is not about anything said by any one person, but the fact that most would rather make excuses and reasons why we aren't headed for a clash of civilisations than to accept that we have a problem and confront the threat head on.

They hated the west before israel existed.
They hated the west before we went into kuwait.
They hated the west before we went into afghanistan.
They hated the west before we went into iraq.
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
I just happened upon this guys blog today. This entry is a long one so I've presented the intro, and what I see as the crux of the entry. Please feel free to follow the link and read the entire article. http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...r-another.html

Why is it that a European has a better grasp on the problems facing america than most americans? Why is it there are so many that just don't believe this? Is it because of a hatred for bush and his policies? Is it blissful ignorance? or is it just plain disbelief that an entire group of people want us dead just for being who we are?
I see it enough, the left whitewashing the vitrol spewed from leaders in the muslim world. The calls for the anahilation of israel. calls for "true" believers to fight everything western - the duty to kill an american today. Just yesterday the saudi interior minister blamed the west for terrorism in a speech calling to fight extremists http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1283 - In a speech about fighting extremism WE are the enemy! - But this thread is not about anything said by any one person, but the fact that most would rather make excuses and reasons why we aren't headed for a clash of civilisations than to accept that we have a problem and confront the threat head on.

They hated the west before israel existed.
They hated the west before we went into kuwait.
They hated the west before we went into afghanistan.
They hated the west before we went into iraq.
Should we kill them all, or put them in camps now to head off a clash of civilisations? I'll leave it to the curious to find out who the president and founder of memritv.org is, and his background.

Here's an excerpt from a "piece", written today by one of the two "contributors" to gatesofvienna.blogspot.com:
Quote:
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
Thursday, October 05, 2006
The Albatross Media

by Dymphna

.......Callimachus always presents coherent and tightly ordered arguments. But this one…well, let me present the quote from a link on his post — he doesn’t actually quote it since he is moving on in building his argument—but I clicked the link out of curiosity. This is from the News Sedition Section of Yahoo, under the subsection US News, and a further drill down to “Bush Administration.” Bear in mind that this is not an editorial, it’s supposed to be a news report. However, it is anything but repotting. It’s sabotage disguised as reportage:

Bush ties campaign to national security

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — President Bush tried to drown out political anxieties about war and sex Wednesday by sounding alarm bells on national security and urging people to “vote Republican for the safety” of the country.
.....and here's an excerpt from the other "constibutor" to gatesofvienna.blogspot.com
Quote:
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, October 04, 2006
Suggestions for Solutions: A Preliminary Draft

by Baron Bodissey

We live in the age of the retreat of the Western world order. The West is declining as a percentage of world population, and in danger of being overwhelmed by immigration from poorer countries with booming populations. Westerners need to adjust our self-image to being just one of several powerful civilizations in the 21st century. As such, we also need to ditch Messianic altruism: We have no obligation to “save” the Islamic world, and do not have the financial strength or the demographic numbers to do so even if we wanted to.

We are not all-powerful and are not in the position to help all of the Third World out of poverty, certainly not by allowing all of them to move here. The West must first of all save itself. We need to regain our cultural confidence and reject Multiculturalism. <b>End the nonsense of “celebrating our differences.” We should be celebrating our sameness</b>......
....stevo, we are what we read....and you've been favorably impressed enough by the "stuff" coming from those two sites to frame a thread here around it.

Sounds like you've bought into this nonsense, from "our leader", who the majority of us have concluded, is on the "fringe":

Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060810-3.html
THE PRESIDENT: The recent arrests that our fellow citizens are now learning about are a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists....
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The answer is obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UarzT2Qs3FY

I read suras 2-9 again this morning. Its pretty fucked up in parts..

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

You will fight for Allah, like it or not.

3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

Do not trust non-musslims.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Allah will reward those who fight for him.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Have no unbeliver friends, kill the unbelievers.

4:160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

Jews are screwed because of their wrong doings.

5:45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.

An eye for an eye etc, if you don't follow allah's laws (non-musslim) you are a wrong doer.

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

Christians go to hell.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

A curse on those who believe in the trinity (Christians)

8:16 Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.

To retreat from disbelievers is to be condemned to hell.

8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

When a musslim slays a non-believer, it is really allah doing the killing.

8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

Fight the non-belivers because they are stupid.

8:67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Make sure you kill a lot of people before you take over.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Kill non-believers unless they convert.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Fight Christians and Jews until they pay you tribute.

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

More anti-Jewish anti-Christian verse

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Islam will prevail over all religions.

9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

Allah is going to get those rich rabbis and monks.

9:39 If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.

If you dont' fight, Allah will curse you with a painful doom.

9:42 Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars.

People who say they couldnt' fight for allah are liars.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Fight the disbelievers near you ... (well you can figure this one out)

Edit: This is but a taste, there is so much more.
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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nicely done host. You've managed to say nothing yet again.

The question is: Why don't you believe we are at war with islamic fasicsts?
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
nicely done host. You've managed to say nothing yet again.

The question is: Why don't you believe we are at war with islamic fasicsts?
The Bush tie in though was masterful.

I'd not be surprised to find a quote about Bush in the Koran.
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:17 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
I'll leave it to the curious to find out who the president and founder of memritv.org is, and his background.
What does it matter about memritv.org? how does the founder and president equate into the matter at hand? I pasted an excerpt from the transcript. A transcript is a printed version of actual words that came out of an actual person's mouth. how does the founder or president of an organization change words that someone spoke?
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
nicely done host. You've managed to say nothing yet again.

The question is: Why don't you believe we are at war with islamic fasicsts?
stevo, your "message" is promoted by the usual "suspects". It is ignorance driven myopic, Horowitz drivel:

Horowitz's http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=24274
"features" a symposium with your : "fjordman"

....to arrive to the point where your opinion brings you, denial of boxcar loads of context is required.

A wave of revulsion comes over me, when I see the US president warmly greeting, kissing, and holding the hand of the Saudi despot, as he guides that symbol of repression and theft of the national Saudi wealth off to a private meeting at the Crawford ranch....I cannot imagine how a muslim in the middle east reacts to that spectacle.
<center><img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:NcOGxicvgScWDM:http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_saudi7.jpg"></center>
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line

........The border was drawn intentionally to cut through the Afghan tribes whom the British feared and may have tried to disunite.

Afghanistan's loya jirga of 1949 declared the Durand Line invalid as they saw it as ex parte on their side (since British India ceased to exist in 1947 with the independence of Pakistan. This had no tangible effect as there has never been a move to enforce such a declaration. <b>Additionally, world courts have universally upheld uti possidetis juris, i.e, binding bilateral agreements with or between colonial powers are "passed down" to successor independent states, as with most of Africa. A unilateral declaration by one party has no effect; boundary changes must be made bilaterally.</b> Thus, the Durand Line boundary remains in effect today as the international boundary and is recognized as such by nearly all nations. Despite pervasive internet rumors to the contrary, U.S. Dept. of State and the British Foreign Commonwealth Office documents and spokespersons have recently confirmed that the Durand Line, like virtually all international boundaries, has no expiration date, nor is there any mention of such in any Durand Line documents. (The 1921 treaty expiration refers only to the 1921 agreements.).....
The Israeli people elected LEHI assassins of a UN diplomat as their prime ministers:
Quote:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ory/folke.html
During the fight for Jewish statehood, extremist military groups sometimes resorted to the use of terrorist tactics. One such instance occurred in 1948 when members of the Jewish underground organization LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) killed UN Peace Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte to protest his diplomatic efforts to modify the Palestine partition plan.

Bernadotte, a Swede with family ties to the Swedish King, gained international recognition through his work as head of the Swedish Red Cross during World War II. Bernadotte used his position to negotiate with Heinrich Himmler and save thousands of Jews from concentration camps, although many argue that he could have done more had he been less cautious in negotiations......
Quote:
http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/
"There is no better way to govern Iran than Democracy and Social Justice!" -Mohammad Mossadegh

Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh (1882-1967) was a lawyer, professor, author, Governor, Parliament member, Finance Minister, Foreign Minister, and democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran.

Mossadegh fought both internal corruption and British colonialism, enacted social reforms and nationalized the Iranian oil industry. <b>In 1953, he was overthrown by a U.S. funded CIA coup, arrested and tried as a traitor in military tribunal court. It was America's first successful dismantling of a foreign government, and Iran has not known democracy since.</b>...
....and the examples go on....and on. stevo, it would be no small breakthrough if we were willing to recognize that we are paying for the sins of our grandfathers, but it is worse than that....our own government repeats and perpetuates these sins, and we align with former colonial powers, Britain for example, to further aggravate the historical grievances in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in Pakistan.

The mixture of right wing media bashing, Bozell/Horowitz propaganda, and western imperialism, combined with the historical denial that is required to embrace the Bush policies, and the commitment to division that you've conveyed in your OP is revolting to my sensiblilities. It offers brute force as the "obvious" solution to a political situation rooted in a history of brute force justified by religious prejudice and colonialism.

There is no "moral high ground" to justify the conduct on either side. We in the US have suffered the tragedy of allowing what our government told us was a plot by 19 young suicide terrorists, directed by a former CIA trained and supplied, Afghan freedom fighter, a Saudi; against two building complexes on our soil, to eclipse all of our past efforts to turn away from our legacy of the Mossadegh coup and the backing of dictators like Saddam, and monarchists, like the Saudi princes.

There is no moral justification for your position, stevo. My advice to you is that you make an effort to accept that this is so.....
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:01 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
The mixture of right wing media bashing, Bozell/Horowitz propaganda, and western imperialism, combined with the historical denial that is required to embrace the Bush policies, and the commitment to division that you've conveyed in your OP is revolting to my sensiblilities. It offers brute force as the "obvious" solution to a political situation rooted in a history of brute force justified by religious prejudice and colonialism.

There is no "moral high ground" to justify the conduct on either side. We in the US have suffered the tragedy of allowing what our government told us was a plot by 19 young suicide terrorists, directed by a former CIA trained and supplied, Afghan freedom fighter, a Saudi; against two building complexes on our soil, to eclipse all of our past efforts to turn away from our legacy of the Mossadegh coup and the backing of dictators like Saddam, and monarchists, like the Saudi princes.

There is no moral justification for your position, stevo. My advice to you is that you make an effort to accept that this is so.....
who said brute force is the "obvious" solution? Who suggested concentration camps and genocide? I know I didn't. What I meant by confront the threat head on, was not to go around gathering up muslims and put them into ovens, nor was it to go around torching mosques or whatever ideas you think I have. What I meant by confront head on is that we can't back down. All we seem to be doing today is backing down. First we need to recongnize there is a threat, then we need to do something about it.

From what I gathered from your last post is that you believe we are not at war with islamofascists because bush likes it friendly where there are oil interests. I guess you could have just said that.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
who said brute force is the "obvious" solution? Who suggested concentration camps and genocide? I know I didn't. What I meant by confront the threat head on, was not to go around gathering up muslims and put them into ovens, nor was it to go around torching mosques or whatever ideas you think I have. What I meant by confront head on is that we can't back down. All we seem to be doing today is backing down. First we need to recongnize there is a threat, then we need to do something about it.

From what I gathered from your last post is that you believe we are not at war with islamofascists because bush likes it friendly where there are oil interests. I guess you could have just said that.
I believe that we are winning "no hearts and minds". Our foreign policy is meant to terroize our own residents by exaggerating "foreign threats". There is not such thing as Islamic Fascism....but there is our pretzeldent proclaiming that "they are the enemy".

Our greatest "threat" is the domestic terrorism by our leaders against us, as they manipulate a transfer of power and authority from us...to them. Islamic Fascists are an official "bogeyman", intended to scare the shit out of us, so we quickly and gladly give "our leaders" authority to unaccountably do whatever they want to.

The "message" in your OP meshes nicely with the message of the current US administration. There is more to it than oil. Why would any muslim look kindly or trustingly on anyone in our government. If Ron Suskind is correct, Bush named armed conflict as the replacement for middle east diplomacy, just ten days into his administration. The US has always backed "strong men", autocrats in the M.E., and the european colonialists governments, and the right wing terrorist founded Likud.

Whether you recognize it or admit it, the current US policy is one of control by brute force. What do you think the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, in each case described as neccessary because one man in each country needed to be killed or captured, were about, if not execution of brute force projection?

I said nothing about ovens or concentration camps. I described your opinion alignment as one of either killing or detaining. There is no evidence that the US policy is anything other than a policy of brute force projection, whether it is used to force an agreement that can be labelled "diplomatic", or to control a geographic area....for military strategic advantage or closer control of natural resources. Kill or detain or set up a puppet government....what else do you perceive that our government is offering to muslims, anywhere?

As long as the Saudi princes, with support of the US defense umbrella, and strongmen like Mubarak in Egypt, continue in power, how do you propose that we "win hearts and minds". We won't. That leaves killing them or detaining them, as our only recourse to their legitimate objection to our presence in their countryies, and by extension, to our existence.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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the only thing this thread does so far as i am concerned is to demonstrate the argument i have been making from time to time to link the american extreme right in all its bushregalia to neofascism in europe.

in earlier versions, i assumed that the far right types here did not know what neofascism is so the arguments seemed not to register.

now, stevo, you simply reproduce information from one as if it was not a problem, demonstrating by doing so that the explicitly racist positions of these organizations correspond to your own.

the american right has been able to dodge to some extent the racism of their arguments--but once you start finding correlations in western european neofascist materials, any such dodge goes out the window---these organizations are explicitly racist, and their racism is explicitly anti-arab. period.
in western europe, the issue of immigration and that of anti-islamic xenophobia/racism are directly linked--in the states, for sociological reasons, they are separated..that's about it, so far as differences are concerned.

it is the same repugnant logic, with the same repugnant outcomes.


the rest of what i could say would be a syllogism.
work it out for yourself.
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Last edited by roachboy; 10-05-2006 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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I see.

If you view Islam in its current form as a threat to Western Civilization you are a racist and a fascist.

I suppose the only non-racist thing to do is blame ourselves (the west) for all the issues at hand, much like the Saudi minister.

The difference between your beloved neo-fascists in Europe and us 'far right' types is that we don't blame this on any race issues, but on a culture that has turned its religion into a death cult. I will not deny that there are racial differences involved, but those can not be helped based on geography and the original extent of the muslim invasions.

Because some neo-fascists see arabs as a problem, does not in itself mean anyone who sees a problem with Islam is a fascist them self.
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Old 10-05-2006, 01:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I was along the lines of typing the same thing about an hour ago. I got as far as "I see." When the phone rang and I had to get back to work.

I know why host doesn't think we're in a war against islamofascists, because he doesn't think they exist. Don't know about roach, or anyone else.

If you add roach and hosts posts together. The current administration is racist.
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:15 PM   #13 (permalink)
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stevo:

the authors of that blog are in Virginia and somewhere else in the Blue Ridge Mountains. One of them does have a quote by Goering in his "about me" bit. Thought that was interesting.

As far as the rest goes, I don't think one can state that there isn't some cultural clash going on - but I don't particularly give a damn if an actual terrorist or fundamentalist understands me or what I concieve America to be and/or be capable of being. Fuck 'em. I'm not particulary interested in lowering myself to the level of that mentality in order to score points with people to whom I am ideologically opposed.

We're showing a pretty good bit of military aggression currently; I don't really see fundamentalist Islamic and terrorist organizations backing down. I think one could make an argument that we've accerbated the problem. My guess is that any postive affect we could have had via application of our military would have been best served by focussed activity in Afganistan; I feel fairly certain that these organizations are not impressed by the horseshit going on in Iraq.
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
If you view Islam in its current form as a threat to Western Civilization you are a racist and a fascist.

not exactly.
it is simpler than that.
i'll say this directly once.


1. you have no coherent view of islam.

in case you missed that, let me say it another way:
you have no coherent view of islam.
you have nothing remotely like a coherent view of islam.
you have your paranoid fantasy that you substitute for a coherent view.
every fascist-style nationalism is motivated by fear of some persecuting Other.


2. to repeat:

your politics would be squarely neofascist were you saying the same crap in a western european context.
but you say them in the states, where the political spectrum was such that right wing extremist arguments were mainstream conservative arguments.
but that changes nothing.

frankly, i would almost prefer it if you were a member of such an organization (like the front national) simply because most western european neofascist organizations are at least honest about the racist underpinnings of their arguments.



and it really doesn't matter if you do not like the category neofascist.
i mean who would?
but it fits like a glove over what you post on the topic of islam.
so deal with it.
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
If you view Islam in its current form as a threat to Western Civilization you are a racist and a fascist.
Ustwo and stevo, you only qualify your opinions (by saying things like "in its current form") when feel you have to. In fact, I'm not sure I'd need 2 hands to count the instances that you didn't paint with the broadest brush possible. Far more common are gloating comments along the lines of "this is a brutal primitive religion that only understands force".

The most reason you've provided so far that your views are not racist is that Islamism isn't a race. So you're culturist or religionist? I'm not sure that I see much redemption as long as you aren't willing to see any nuance or variation in a thing that is made up of hundreds of millions of people who each have their own practices, experiences, and priorities. Is that sort of perception not appropriate here? I think it is, particularly in terms of finding solutions or living in a world with people who are of differing values. I'm still waiting for a defense of your generalization of Islam as a monolithic feature, or as the single most defining feature of its practicioners. If that isn't an "ism" I don't know what is.

So whether or not your opening article is any good or of any truth, I don't see the relevance of your views to mine, let alone the real world in which we live.

By the way, this shocked the hell out of me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
every fascist-style nationalism is motivated by fear of some persecuting Other.
I didn't know you had it in you, roachboy.

(I'm talking about the caps key)
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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^^meltdown?^^

I'm still getting it roach...could you please try one more time to simplify things for me
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertuber
Ustwo and stevo, you only qualify your opinions (by saying things like "in its current form") when feel you have to. In fact, I'm not sure I'd need 2 hands to count the instances that you didn't paint with the broadest brush possible. Far more common are gloating comments along the lines of "this is a brutal primitive religion that only understands force".

The most reason you've provided so far that your views are not racist is that Islamism isn't a race. So you're culturist or religionist? I'm not sure that I see much redemption as long as you aren't willing to see any nuance or variation in a thing that is made up of hundreds of millions of people who each have their own practices, experiences, and priorities. Is that sort of perception not appropriate here? I think it is, particularly in terms of finding solutions or living in a world with people who are of differing values. I'm still waiting for a defense of your generalization of Islam as a monolithic feature, or as the single most defining feature of its practicioners. If that isn't an "ism" I don't know what is.
This is a gross generalization Uber. A cultural trend does not mean everyone in a culture follows it, approves of it, or supports it. I don't know what percentage of the Islamic world would qualify as an 'Islamofacist' but they have come to represent modern Islam, like it or not.

Stevo and I never even suggested that they are ALL like that, or that even every Islamic population is like that, but currently the ones that are, and there are millions of them, and they control several governments, are a threat to the progress as we see it and the Western World as a whole.

I'm giong to Goodwin this hoping you get the point. Not every german was a nazi, not every german supported them, some even fought them, but at the end of the day we still had to fight the germans as they were a threat to freedom in Europe.

I figured that sort of thing should be self evident and am rather annoyed I need to explain it. Do you really think Stevo and I are that simplistic in vision?
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Old 10-05-2006, 08:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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UsTwo, how do you fight against an ideology that is not contained within a nation-state?
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:10 AM   #19 (permalink)
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So.....you don't believe we are in a war with islamofascists because you aren't a racist? Is that what I'm hearing?
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:26 AM   #20 (permalink)
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So those that realized that Germany, Italy, and Japan were threats in the 1930s were racist... therefore should have be ignored and shunned. Those that saw the spread of Communism as a threat to global stability were regionalists and culturalists... therefore should have been ignored and shunned.

That argument does not hold water in reality. Prove us wrong by somehow getting them to say they no longer want the West and Israel to be whiped off the map. Prove us wrong by somehow getting them to stop killing innocent civilians purposefully.

Until then closing your eyes and ears screaming "Racist!" does not work.
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Old 10-06-2006, 08:22 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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this is hilarious, folks.
look, there are three main problems with this particular thread:

1. the source material cited in the op comes from a racist blog and contains material from a neofascist source in norway.
did you actually chase any of the links?
did you actually look at this material in context?
this material is to an actual analysis of islam--in any manner--as the protocols of the elders of zion are to judaism or some document from white aryan resistance would be to african-americans.


i would think that even the house far right people would be a little wary of biting explicitly racist material and presenting it as other than it is because it resonates with them if they want their positions about islam to not simply be laughed at.

2. it follows that you should be concerned at the tightness of the fit between your particular rationalizations of hysteria directed at your fantasy islam and those of these groups in western europe. the problem this fit raises concerns the nature of *your* politics.
it says volumes about *your* politics, even as the infotainment in the op says almost nothing coherent about islam.

3. it seems that the conventional rightwing pseduo-wisdom would have it that the term "islamofascism" has a single coherent referent beyond "entities that the bush administration deems functional for justifying its policies"--which it doesnt--and further that imputing this term to groups running about the the imagination of conservatives (as defined by their terminology) means that there can be no ideological problems with conservative positions that themselves move closer and closer to those of actually existing neofascist organizations in the world--groups that are afriad of the same things the american right is, groups that use their racist nationalism to ward off a hallucinatory fear of "being invaded" or being rendered "impure" by excess contact with islam.


beyond this, the illusion the house far rightwing set seems to share that it and it alone is aware of a Real Threat--even though that threat is entirely a function of its own hysterical nationalist discourse--and that any critique of that hysterical discourse amounts to abdication of Vigiliance in the face of a coming Race War----this is the stuff of any number of tiny far rightwing groups that spend time preparing for helter skelter by stockpiling guns, ammo and canned goods in their basements preparing for the Race War.

personally, i think this turn in conservativeland back to the huntington thesis and its racist correlates *does* react to a coming cataclysm--that cataclysm is november's elections and the problem is the possibility of their actually being consequences that attend the systematic dishonesty and incompetence of the bush administration and its rightwing lackies in congress--THAT is the problem those few supporters of the bush administration are facing--and to "deal with it" you are retreating into a rightwing extremist fantasyland, one that enables you to dress yourselves up as martyrs or prophets....which makes of the turn little more than narcissistic delerium.




one other note: i make these comments in this thread.
i did not make them in the thread ustwo started at almost the same time biting quotes from john quincy adams and churchill that is seemingly about referencing famous dead people who also knew nothing about islam as if their ignorance justified contemporary ignorance.

that thread is not problematic in the way this one is.
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Old 10-06-2006, 08:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
this is hilarious, folks.
look, there are three main problems with this particular thread:

1. the source material cited in the op comes from a racist blog and contains material from a neofascist source in norway.
did you actually chase any of the links?
did you actually look at this material in context?
Yes I did. I'd appreciate it if you would cite some of the passages from the blog, in context, that you see as racist. If you would.
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:15 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
Yes I did. I'd appreciate it if you would cite some of the passages from the blog, in context, that you see as racist. If you would.
c'mon stevo, what possible difference would anything pointed out to you, by anyone who disagrees with you, make....as far as influencing you to alter your opinions.... i.e., look how far you've had to dig to reinforce your belief system... <b>yer reduced to posting "fringe stuff".... by fjordman</b>
fjordman ????...a guy fomenting racial division by blogging about the growing trend of rapes by Somalis, of Swedish women?
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...in-sweden.html
<img src="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1949/552/1600/NYHETER-17s09-09valdtakt-512.jpg">
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...-magazine.html

Boys....even if I agreed with your opinions....I don't, obviously....
it would be difficult for me not to consider the strong words of criticism of what amounts to a failed policy, a failed prosecution of a "war" that the pretzeldent claimed, weeks ago, to be "war against Islamic fascists". Doesn't that phrase sound silly to you? Here are the recent remarks, and three instances of references to "impeachment", between 2004 qnd 2006, of Reagan's NSA chief, retired Lt. Gen. Odom:

Quote:
http://woolsey.house.gov/SupportingF..._Testimony.pdf
TESTIMONY
THE COSTS OF THE IRAQ WAR
26 September 2006
By William E. Odom, LT GEN, USA, Retired

Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. It is an honor to appear before
the members who are holding this hearing.
You have asked me to testify today on the costs of the Iraq.
They are many and varied, and I shall choose to focus upon a few
categories of costs.

The word “costs” naturally evokes the idea of dollar values and
lives lost. I have no special knowledge of the actual Federal funds
that have been spent on the war to date, but I believe a fair estimate
is over $300 billion and perhaps as much as a half trillion dollars. As
you know, the number of American service personnel killed in Iraq is
approaching 2,700, and the number of wounded is much greater, at
least 16,000.

As large as these estimated physical costs are, they do not
began to capture other important categories of costs. It is difficult to
appreciate them outside the context of critically important facts that
are either ignored or grossly distorted in most discussions of the war.
I shall, therefore, state those I consider most essential.

First, to understand the costs of being in Iraq, we must look
back at whose interests were served by the invasion. No American
interests were served. The interests of Iran and al Qaeda have been
hugely advanced. Toppling Saddam avenged Iran’s grievances for
his invasion of that country and eight years of war that ended in a
stalemate in 1988. More importantly, the inevitable Shiite dominance
in any successor Iraqi regime greatly enhances Tehran’s influence
there. These were unexpected gifts to the Iranian republic at0
America’s expense.

Al Qaeda is no less grateful to the United States than Iran. Our
toppling of Saddam opened Iraq to al Qaeda cadres and placed
Americans there where they would be vulnerable. It also boosted al
Qaeda’s international appeal to young Muslims, something that was
suffering after the US successful campaign in Afghanistan in 2001.
Finally, the invasion harmed US relations with Europe and NATO
allies more than anything I can recall in the history of the alliance.
Osama bin Laden has publicly noted this as a great gain for his
strategy against America.

Second, the implications of the strategic error of invading Iraq
are two. First, staying the course can make no sense. Everyday we
stay merely improves the position of our enemies while squandering
our wealth. Even if an Iraqi regime can be created that prevents the
breakup of the country, it will be extremely oppressive, anti-American,
and under considerable Iranian influence. To “stay the course” is to
say that “we must continue to advance the interests of Iran and al
Qaeda, not American interests.” At the same, being in Iraq paralyzes
the US strategically, denying it both diplomatic and military flexibility
that are necessary to create a coalition of major powers to design and
implement a larger strategy for stabilizing the whole region, not just
Iraq.

Once these two facts are recognized – that we are fighting in
the interests of our enemies in Iraq and that we cannot improve
things there in the larger region until we withdraw – we can begin to
talk sense about what to do next. In the meanwhile, the costs go up
everyday. We squander American lives and money, and lose allies
and the moral authority we need and used so effectively during the
long course of the Cold War.

Understanding this context is absolutely essential to
recognizing the larger costs of the war. International organizations
like the United Nations and security alliances such as NATO have
been the key to leveraging US power by two or three times for
managing the international order and for making the United States
the wealthiest country in history. The longer we remain bogged down
in Iraq, the closer we come to the destruction of these institutions that
have served us so well, financially, militarily, politically, and morally.
2
The costs to the United States in every one of these categories rise
every additional day we continue the war.
It will be objected that the mess we leave in Iraq will be even
more costly. Precisely the contrary is the truth. Why? First, in
economic terminology, those are “sunk costs.” They cannot be
avoided no matter how long we stay.

Second, to use military terminology, wise commanders know
when to make tactical withdrawals in order to regain the strategic
initiative. The wisdom and moral courage to change course for
strategic purposes is what we need today, not mindless rhetoric
about “staying the course.” “Cutting and running” from Iraq is neither
cowardly nor imprudent. It is the only way to recover from what is
turning out to be the greatest strategic mistake in American history.
3
Quote:
Short video excerpt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDNcJ...elated&search=

Long video excerpt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voLzi...elated&search=

Lt. Gen. Odom Speaks Truth In US Capitol Basement
Wednesday, 27 September 2006, 10:15 am
Opinion: David Swanson
Rep. Woolsey and 15 Other Congress Members Hold Hearing on Iraq
Lt. General Odom speaks truth in basement of U.S. Capitol. Dome shakes.

By David Swanson

Present (whole time or briefly, in order of arrival): Representatives Lee, Woolsey, Jackson-Lee, Rothman, Kilpatrick, Conyers, Hinchey, Owens, Kaptor, Hoyer (Hoyer!?, yes Hoyer, but he left quickly and did not get a chance to speak), Tierney, Farr, Watson, Delahunt, Shakowsky.

Corporate media present: apparently none.

Panel 1: Witnesses: Lt. Gen. William Odom, Dr. Paul Pillar.

live blogging below...

Pillar spoke first. He addressed the question of whether the disaster in Iraq is the result of poor execution or of the initial decision to go in at all. "Most of what we are seeing," he said, "and in particular the communal violence, is an almost inevitable result of having ousted the dictator Saddam Hussein."

Odom spoke second and addressed points of argumentation that he hears too often and is tired of hearing, including being told to ignore the past and focus on the future, to ignore how we got into Iraq and only talk about what to do from here on. Unless, Odom said, we discuss whose interests this war served, we cannot decide what to do. It served no U.S. interests. It served the interests of al Qaeda and Iran.

Al Qaeda recruiting declined in 2002, Odom said, but spiked after the U.S. invaded -- rose in Asia as well as in the Middle East. And Iraq is a great training ground for terrorists now. In addition, Odom said, a wedge is being driven between the United States and its European allies. "Osama understands that; we seem not to." The invasion of Iraq, Odom said, probably saved al Qaeda from ceasing to exist.

"Iran's clerics," Odom added, "must have been equally surprised and delighted." Terrorists can now train in Iraq and engage in violence in Israel.

The longer the war goes on, Odom stressed, the more it benefits al Qaeda and Iran.

During questions and answers Odom addressed the notion that U.S. troops need to do a better job of training Iraqi troops. If we do that, he said, the military will take over and install a dictatorship. The problem is not one of soldiers' skills, he said, but of political loyalties.

Congresswoman Barbara Lee said that the House is voting today on more money for the war, and that she will vote against it, but that she is glad to have successfully included in the bill a stipulation that no money can be spent on permanent U.S. bases in Iraq during 2007.

Odom again spoke about what would happen when/if the United States pulls out. The aftermath is going to be great, he said. It was going to be great the day you went in, but the longer you wait the greater it will be. And, Odom added to noticable effect, this will be the greatest strategic defeat in American history.

Congressman Rothman said that he had voted for the war because he had believed Bush and Rumsfeld, and that he now understood they had been lying. He said he saw the same approach now underway with Iran, and that he thought it was aimed at the coming U.S. elections.

Odom again spoke of leaving Iraq and said "It takes a very high level of ignorance to believe America can leave behind in Iraq any government that will not be anti-American."

But Odom argued that staying longer in Iraq would make things worse, whereas getting out would dramatically improve America's standing in the world. Our standing went up as soon as we got out of Vietnam, he said.

"Beating the war drums on Iran," Odom said, "is a disaster that will make this one look small."

Odom did not hesitate to criticise the Congress Members in the room. He recalled the day on which Republicans in Congress, in response to Rep. John Murtha's bill, proposed a bill to simply withdraw from Iraq. The Democrats scattered in fear, Odom said. He recommended that they should have introduced a bill to send 600,000 more troops to Iraq.

Congressman Conyers replied that the Republican bill did not allow amendments, so the Democrats could not have done that.

Odom said that the most important thing for the United States to do now is to talk to Iran, a nation with which we have many common interests. Both nations, Odom said, oppose al Qaeda. One wants to sell oil, the other wants to buy. Iran's government hated Saddam Hussein and should appreciate what the US did. "We have two issues," Odom said, "Hezbollah and nukes, and they're going to get nuclear weapons - there's nothing we can do about that."

Conyers thanked Odom and Pillar but said that he and his colleagues who agree with him cannot convince other Congress Members. "There's one thing that gets to members, and that's constituents...." In the end, conyers said, the question is how do we get more of our people to tell their representatives that the Progressive Caucus members are right?

Pillar drew a comparison between Iraq and Afghanistan. The jihad in Afghanistan for 10 years against the Soviet Union served to train terrorists, he said, and we are still experiencing the results. Iraq is now that training ground, and we may see results for many years, he said.

Rep. Hinchey asked Odom "How do we get out?" Odom's reply came without a pause: "Well, the Constitution gives the House the right to impeach."
<b>Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF7IR...elated&search= </b>
Quote:
http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese01252006.html
<b>January 25, 2006</b>
Supports the US Empire, But Opposes the War
Gen. William Odom on Iraq

....General Odom was asked by an Iraq veteran who had just returned how he knew the war was lost when we have only been there for three years. Odom described the problems in Iraq as beyond our ability to control. The multiple ethnic groups in Iraq, the divisions in Arab culture and their lack of history with a limited state makes "Iraq one of the hardest places on earth to put in place a liberal democracy." Odom sees spreading democracy, especially liberal democracy, as very difficult.

When asked how we can bring the president to heel? Odom responded with a question <b>"how do you impeach the president?"</b> He went on to express concern about the weakening constitutional balance in the United States.

When it came to Congress, Odom talked about meeting with Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC) where he congratulated Jones for "taking the lead because then it won't go to the radical left and we won't be spitting on our soldiers." Regarding Rep. Jack Murtha (D-PA), Odom said he "absolutely agrees with Murtha."

Odom came to oppose the Vietnam War, not from the left but from the right and he is doing so on Iraq as well. He saw Vietnam as uniting our enemies and failing to contain China. He sees the same thing occurring in Iraq. The unintended consequences of strengthening Iran, undermining U.S. influence in the Middle East and the world and strengthening Osama bin Laden make this a war counterproductive to U.S. interests. He pointed out that like Vietnam the Iraq War was justified by false intelligence comparing the Gulf of Tonkin with the Weapons of Mass Destruction claims. Odom saw three stages in Vietnam: 1961-65 getting into the war; 1965-68 understanding we are not fighting it right, changing approach to a pacification policy; 1968 to end--Vietnamization and phony diplomacy in Paris. He sees us at the end of Phase II in Iraq and beginning Phase III this year. We are seeing the Iraqization of the war and concludes we will see Congress starting to break with the President more and more; and the final conclusion will be the U.S. leaving the "Green Zone" much like the U.S. left the embassy in Vietnam.

Odom noted that the United States is "running out of Army" and that people underestimate how difficult the Iraq War is on the Army. Indeed, he said "if we took a referendum among U.S. troops 80 percent would favor leaving. We might be winning tactically, but we are losing strategically." He predicted a dramatic draw down by next Christmas with some type of political cover invoked to accomplish it......
Quote:
http://www.antiwar.com/bock/?articleid=2572
<b>May 14, 2004</b>
Former NSA Director: War Weariness Growing

...."I'm not sure I want to help the administration move on," Gen. Odom said. "I'd rather impeach them.".....
....and stevo....where is the coverage of Gen. Odom's three years of anti-Bush policy comments.....by the "liberal media" that you, Ustwo, Brent Bozell, and now, your "fjordman", constantly complain about the existence of?
Quote:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...in-sweden.html

......<b>Sweden's largest newspaper</b> has presented the perpetrators as "two men from Sweden, one from Finland and one from Somalia", a testimony as to <b>how bad the informal censorship is in stories</b> related to immigration in Sweden. .....
<b>So....yesterday, you resort to posting the rantings of the racist Norwegian, "fjordman".....what will you come up with tomorrow, to take our attention, and of course, yours....from any contemplation of the validity and implications of what Lt. Gen. Odom (retired), has been speaking about for three years? Keep electing folks who prevent Odom from testifying before any bipartisan congressional committees, and instead, offer up your "fjordman"! </b>

Last edited by host; 10-06-2006 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:23 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
c'mon stevo, what possible difference would anything pointed out to you, by anyone who disagrees with you, make....as far as influencing you to alter your opinions.... i.e., look how far you've had to dig to reinforce your belief system... <b>yer reduced to posting "fringe stuff".... by fjordman</b>
fjordman ????...a guy fomenting racial division by blogging about the growing trend of rapes by Somalis, of Swedish women?
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...in-sweden.html
<img src="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1949/552/1600/NYHETER-17s09-09valdtakt-512.jpg">
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...-magazine.html
host we don't have to dig deeper than CNN's headline, this was just ONE example. See the Cartoon riots for an example.


Quote:
Boys....even if I agreed with your opinions....I don't, obviously....
it would be difficult for me not to consider the strong words of criticism of what amounts to a failed policy, a failed prosecution of a "war" that the pretzeldent claimed, weeks ago, to be "war against Islamic fascists". Doesn't that phrase sound silly to you? Here are the recent remarks, and three instances of references to "impeachment", between 2004 qnd 2006, of Reagan's NSA chief, retired Lt. Gen. Odom:
Must you try to tie EVERY post you make to Bush? I think you have a crush on him. Oh and 'pretzeldent' is a new one for me. I think I finally figured out why you never post anything outside of politics (unless it has to do with the politics board). Its very hard to tie 'my parents are getting a divorce' to 'Bush is evil', but I think you of all people could manage.
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:35 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
c'mon stevo, what possible difference would anything pointed out to you, by anyone who disagrees with you, make....as far as influencing you to alter your opinions.... i.e., look how far you've had to dig to reinforce your belief system... <b>yer reduced to posting "fringe stuff".... by fjordman</b>
fjordman ????...a guy fomenting racial division by blogging about the growing trend of rapes by Somalis, of Swedish women?
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...in-sweden.html
<img src="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1949/552/1600/NYHETER-17s09-09valdtakt-512.jpg">
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...-magazine.html

Boys....even if I agreed with your opinions....I don't, obviously....
it would be difficult for me not to consider the strong words of criticism of what amounts to a failed policy, a failed prosecution of a "war" that the pretzeldent claimed, weeks ago, to be "war against Islamic fascists". Doesn't that phrase sound silly to you? Here are the recent remarks, and three instances of references to "impeachment", between 2004 qnd 2006, of Reagan's NSA chief, retired Lt. Gen. Odom:





....and stevo....where is the coverage of Gen. Odom's three years of anti-Bush policy comments.....by the "liberal media" that you, Ustwo, Brent Bozell, and now, your "fjordman", constantly complain about the existence of?

<b>So....yesterday, you resort to posting the rantings of the racist Norwegian, "fjordman".....what will you come up with tomorrow, to take our attention, and of course, yours....from any contemplation of the validity and implications of what Lt. Gen. Odom (retired), has been speaking about for three years? Keep electing folks who prevent Odom from testifying before any bipartisan congressional committees, and instead, offer up your "fjordman"! </b>
c'mon host. I get accusations I'm a racist because I say I agree with this article from this blog and so I ask for some passages to be cited, in context, to support that claim. Now I know I didn't ask you personally to do it, but I figured my invitation was open to all. Now you come along and you post a picture of a girl that was raped and beaten by a gang of young muslims in norway as your proof that this is a racist blog? Did I get that right???? I did notice that the other articles you posted were not from the blog in question, so if you would be so kind...
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:42 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
host we don't have to dig deeper than CNN's headline, this was just ONE example. See the Cartoon riots for an example.




Must you try to tie EVERY post you make to Bush? I think you have a crush on him. Oh and 'pretzeldent' is a new one for me. I think I finally figured out why you never post anything outside of politics (unless it has to do with the politics board). Its very hard to tie 'my parents are getting a divorce' to 'Bush is evil', but I think you of all people could manage.
The last time that you went down the <b>"you never post anything outside politics"</b>, "road", as a substitution for an actual rebuttal of my comments, was here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=107387&page=2

<b>Even though I posted the following, later....in response, here you go again.....why? Are you posting a belief that my arguments somehow have less "weight" or validity, because they come from me.....someone who you have determined....does not post "enough", on other forums, whatever that means?????</b>
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=128

I dunno....I guess that I'm pretty consistant...my posting frequency and continuity haven't changed much.....
On Oct., 22, 2004, I posted this:
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...7&postcount=31
.....Listening to Bush speak, he transformed my attitude, and I saw him
as our leader, speaking to , and for all of us, simultaneously. He was
briefly interrupting important work, but he was standing in the one place
where he could reassure the country and those who attacked us, that
he was up to the challenge of protecting us from further attacks and
of quickly making those responsible for the attacks answer for their actions.

I think that Bush is working as hard as he possibly can to do his job in
the way that he and his advisors perceive that to be.....
...and it was business as usual the other day, when I commented:
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...2&postcount=38
.....I lived on Manhattan on 9/11. I put aside my fuustration over the way Bush came into office after the Florida non-recount. It was uplifting to the spirit and brought hope to all of us who saw Bush speaking from atop the rubble that was, just days before, the WTC towers.

Mr. Bush lost me....I didn't lose him......
....sure, I post occasionally on other tfp forums, these examples come to mind:
July 9, 2006
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...7&postcount=39 ,
on powerrclown's hitchhiking thread, in geberal discussion....

....and here.....on March 5, 2006
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...postcount=1731 ,
on the "Rate the Avatar Above You" thread in "Members Playground "

....for the most part though, I'm content to be an active poster in the "tilted politics" forum. It's distasteful to participate there, according to many comments that I've read, around the forum. It is neccessary to be sure that you know what you're talking about there....that you can back up the comments that you make...otherwise, you're on display, just talking out of your @ss....and that is frustrating to some people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly

When posts go this way:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=107387&page=2

it's no wonder that everyone I try to recruit to TFP runs away and wonders why I have anything to do with this dead message board. "er... because it hasn't always been dead?"
You will probably end up being the target of personal attacks on that forum; just the other day, a couple of other members posted that I was a propagandist, a "plant", insincere, disingenuous....words to that effect. No problem, for me, though.

Join us there....everyone is welcome. My advice is to never post anything at the politics forum that you are not prepared to back up. No one wants to look foolish to the rest of us, I guess a lot of people don't post there because they don't want to risk having that happen to them. Just be yourself, talk about what you know, and add something when you see that it needs to be said......did I say that you need to be ready to support your points?
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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nice threadjack, host. There is a PM function. sheesh.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:03 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I've had enough of it, stevo. The intent of the <b>"you never post anything outside politics"</b> comment, was a first step in baiting the mods into closing this thread. It worked when he "went down that road" in the <b> Bush & Blair Knew & Both Went on Vacation; Is the Code Red Terror Alert Legitimate?</b>, thread. I want that tactic to stop. The fact that he is still here....still doing it....speaks volumes.

Now....please review what I posted:
Quote:
So....yesterday, you resort to posting the rantings of the racist Norwegian, "fjordman".....what will you come up with tomorrow, to take our attention, and of course, yours....from any contemplation of the validity and implications of what Lt. Gen. Odom (retired), has been speaking about for three years? Keep electing folks who prevent Odom from testifying before any bipartisan congressional committees, and instead, offer up your "fjordman"!
....neither I, nor roachboy, accused you of being a racist. I'm saying that you are posting the rantings of an extermist...that "fjordman" came to your attention via propaganda "instruments", such as Horowitz's FrontpageMag, or via LGF, or some such site. There is a reason for that.....the intent is to shift the attention of those receptive to the "at war with Islamic fascists" message of Mr. Bush & co., away from actual discussion of the entire policy, and it's validity and effectiveness. Presumably, that would feature examination and response to what Lt. Gen. Odom keeps on saying....and "fjordman" would not even be noticed, because he isn't relevant to what we should be discussing in the U.S., and he is obviously, in my example...race baiting in Sweden, and using Brent Bozell's unfounded criticism of "the media", to get it done.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
nice threadjack, host. There is a PM function. sheesh.
Stevo he does have a point UsTwo did bait him and jacked the thread first with a personal attack. Host was just defending himself.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:12 AM   #30 (permalink)
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You've already answered my question, host. You don't think we're in a war with islamofascists because you don't think islamofascism exists. Ok. I'd like to hear why others don't think we're at war with islamofascists.
Quote:
the intent is to shift the attention of those receptive to the "at war with Islamic fascists" message of Mr. Bush & co., away from actual discussion of the entire policy, and it's validity and effectiveness.
Perhaps the effectiveness of the policy isn't as strong because there are a great deal of people who don't think islamofascists exist or don't think we're at war with them. I guaruntee you that if we had 100% of this country behind the effort we'd have all but won by now.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:28 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
You've already answered my question, host. You don't think we're in a war with islamofascists because you don't think islamofascism exists. Ok. I'd like to hear why others don't think we're at war with islamofascists.
Perhaps the effectiveness of the policy isn't as strong because there are a great deal of people who don't think islamofascists exist or don't think we're at war with them. I guaruntee you that if we had 100% of this country behind the effort we'd have all but won by now.
stevo, your "backdoor" accusation; that "we", the "great deal of people who don't think islamofascists exist" have kept the US from having "won by now", is countered by the assessments of, among many others....including 18 retired generals, and Rep. Murtha, those of Lt. Gen. Odom, as recently as ten days ago. Did you even read them, or watch the videos at the links that I provided.

Your accusation is not only counter to the reported facts, it is a "cheap shot", IMO. I expect more from you, than that, or quotes from the blogger, "fjordman", to back an argument that you assert, makes the justification of the loss of 3000 of our troops, now, in Iraq, "so obvious".
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:31 AM   #32 (permalink)
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host you neglected to link the 'Bush is involved in human sacrafice' post, that was a hoot, and why your 'Bush lost me' post got such a reaction from me, I don't believe you.

You also think 9/11 was a government plot, yet Bush lost YOU after 9/11?

Come on host we are not the uneducated Amish like people you once accused us of being

Its no wonder you don't think we are at war with Islamofascists as you think we have done it to ourselves.

That was the question here, nothing about the pretzeldent.

And I do owe you an appology. I did miss the three posts you made outside of politics/parinoia in the last 2 years that didn't directly involve politics (according to the search function). This may seem sarcastic since it has been only 3 out of 488, but since those three are somewhat recent I assume this is an ernest effort on your part.
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
This is a gross generalization Uber. A cultural trend does not mean everyone in a culture follows it, approves of it, or supports it. I don't know what percentage of the Islamic world would qualify as an 'Islamofacist' but they have come to represent modern Islam, like it or not.

Stevo and I never even suggested that they are ALL like that, or that even every Islamic population is like that, but currently the ones that are, and there are millions of them, and they control several governments, are a threat to the progress as we see it and the Western World as a whole.
Over a third of the muslims in the world are in these 10 countires
1 Indonesia (182,570,000 muslims)
2 Pakistan (134,480,000)
3 India (121,000,000)
4 Bangladesh (114,080,000)
5 Turkey (65,510,000)
6 Iran (62,430,000)
7 Egypt (58,630,000)
8 Nigeria (53,000,000)
9 Algeria (30,530,000)
10 Morocco (28,780,000)

Which of these top 10 countries with muslim populations are controlled by what you call "islamofacists? - Iran

Which are becoming more radicalized both at the government level and among the Islamic populous, in part because of US policy (granted that islamic extremism existed long before Bush)?

You dont defeat the extremists with policy and rhetoric that turns more moderate muslims to their side. At least Condi Rice recognized that:
In a controversial move within the administration, [Undersecretary of State Karen] Hughes and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice seem to have persuaded Bush — temporarily, at least — to drop the label “Islamic fascism” from his speeches; diplomats say that Muslims hear it as an attack on their religion, thereby validating the extremists’ false charge that the United States is at war with Islam.

The move is a blow to conservatives, who celebrated last month when President Bush used the term several times in his speeches on terrorism. The phrase is a favorite of right-wing commentators like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity; the AP called it “the new buzzword” for conservatives “in an election season dominated by an unpopular war in Iraq.”
And who the fuck is the fjordman....for all I know he is just a eurofacist.
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:48 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Is Indonesia a haven for terrorists?

Yes. Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim county, is a vast archipelago with porous maritime borders, a weak central government, separatist movements, corrupt officials, a floundering economy, and a loosely regulated financial system—all characteristics which make it fertile ground for terrorist groups. While Indonesia is known as a secular, tolerant society that practices a moderate form of Islam, radical Islamists have gained momentum. U.S. officials and terrorism experts worry about al-Qaeda using Indonesia as a base for a Southeast Asian front in its campaign against “infidels,” Jews, and the United States. Indonesia resisted international pressure to crack down on local militants suspected of al-Qaeda ties until a devastating October 2002 attack on a Bali nightclub—and the simultaneous bombing of a U.S. consular office on the island—which killed more than 200 people, most of them foreign tourists. To its credit, since October 2002 the Indonesian government has cooperated with U.S. and Australian officials in their attempts to disrupt terrorist networks in Southeast Asia.
Quote:
Executive Summary

The September 11 attacks on New York and Washington and the ensuing U.S.-led war on terrorism have given Pakistan's military dictator, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, an opportunity to improve the relationship between Washington and Islamabad. That relationship had experienced a steep decline in the 1990s, as the end of both the Cold War and the common struggle against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan eroded the perception of shared strategic interests. Moreover, while it was losing its strategic significance to the United States, Pakistan was coming under the control of an assertive military-religious nexus that promoted anti-American radical Islamic forces at home and abroad.

Since September 11, General Musharraf, whose regime had been the main source of diplomatic and military support for the terrorist Taliban ruling neighboring Afghanistan, has portrayed his regime as an ally of Washington in its counterterrorism campaign. Musharraf, though, headed a military clique that brought an end to his nation's short democratic experience, assisted radical Islamic terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Kashmir, pressed for a war with India, advanced Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, and presided over a corrupt and mismanaged economy. Despite that record, he is being hailed by the Bush administration as a "courageous" and "visionary" leader who is ready to reorient his country toward a pro-American position and adopt major political and economic reforms. In exchange for his belated support, Musharraf has been rewarded with U.S. diplomatic backing and substantial economic aid.

Musharraf's decision to join the U.S. war on terrorism didn't reflect a structural transformation in Pakistan's policy. It was a result of tactical considerations aimed at limiting the losses that Islamabad would suffer because of the collapse of the friendly Taliban regime in Kabul. Rejecting cooperation with Washington would have provoked American wrath and placed at risk Pakistan's strategic and economic interests in South Asia.

Some cooperation between the United States and Pakistan is necessary to wage the war against terrorism, but that cooperation must not evolve into a new long-term strategic alliance. Washington should view Pakistan, with its dictatorship, failed economy, and insecure nuclear arsenal, as a reluctant supporter of U.S. goals at best and as a potential long-term problem at worst.
India - No point in going into that one, the 900 million non-Muslims have sway.

Quote:
Bangladesh is one of the poorest countries on earth, on the brink of being a failed state, and that makes it a perfect target for Al-Qaeda and its ever-expanding network of Islamic extremist organisations. Virtually unnoticed by the world at large, Bangladesh is being dragged into the global war on terrorists by becoming a sanctuary for them.

US officials say they are "looking closely" at Bangladesh as Islamic organisations proliferate amid political violence that has flared since bitterly contested parliamentary elections in October 2001. These were won by a four-party coalition headed by the Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP). It includes three religious extremist parties, which are staunch supporters of Islamic fundamentalism.

Neighbouring India, which has had turbulent relations with Bangladesh since it gained independence from Pakistan in 1971, alleges that there are 195 camps in Bangladesh where guerrillas seeking autonomy or independent statehood in north-eastern India are being trained.

Prime Minister Khaleda Zia's government in Bangladesh has repeatedly denied it supports anti-Indian militants or allows Islamic organisations, some of them linked to Al-Qaeda, to flourish. Given the BNP's reliance on its Islamic partners, that position is to be expected. The US and its Western allies are gradually waking up to the potentially explosive situation developing in Bangladesh, which former prime minister Sheikh Hasina, leader of the Awami League, the main opposition party, calls the "Talibanisation" of Bangladeshi society.
Turkey - Potential sure, but their military keeps it in check.

Iran - You don't need help here I hope.

Egypt - Has potential, had people dancing in the streets after 9/11, has tourist massacres every now and then, but being the 2nd biggest beneficiary of US aid and having a heavy western tourist industry has helped keep it somewhat modderate. As a side note I have an open invitation to stay at a friends home in egypt if I am ever there, nice guy, smart guy, thought the Talbian was good and that Egypt is so well off because Muslims are in charge, but a nice guy.

Nigeria - Are you talking about the Christian south or the Muslim north? Guess where the violence is! Guess who is being attacked!

Quote:
RABAT - Violence continues to spread throughout Algeria, 12 years after the army aborted elections Islamists were set to win, prompting an uprising by Islamic extremists and a conflict which has killed up to 150,000 people, mostly civilians.
Morocco - has a Western leaning king but isn't immune
Quote:
Morocco
Morocco's Tentative Tap-Dance With Terrorism
General Hamidu Laanigri, the director-general of Moroccan security, last month told the French newspaper Le Figaro that Morocco did not produce terrorism. As far as the Moroccan authorities are concerned, the fact that many of those involved in major terrorist attacks against Western targets over the past year were Moroccans did not reflect ingrained fundamentalism in the kingdom.
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Old 10-07-2006, 10:41 AM   #35 (permalink)
 
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As you noted:
While Indonesia is known as a secular, tolerant society that practices a moderate form of Islam, radical Islamists have gained momentum......To its credit, since October 2002 the Indonesian government has cooperated with U.S. and Australian officials in their attempts to disrupt terrorist networks in Southeast Asia.
Will the Indonenian government and the vast majority moderate islamic population continue to be cooperative if they perceive the West is attacking their religion and not the extremists who have coopted the religion to support their terrorist goals?
While Iran has the most radical regime among all the muslim countries, it also has the most secular population, particularly among those under 30 yrs old, which is the vast majority of the country.
I'll make the same argument again....Will the vast majority of young, moderate muslims in Iran who want a more secular government feel an affinity to the US and the West if they perceive we are attacking their religion and not the extremists who have coopted the religion to support their terrorist goals?
Turkey and Egypt are models of relatively "moderate" Muslim republics (Egypt to a lesser degree until it has real open elections) both of which recognize Israel and acknowledge that they can peacefully co-exist.
Are there anti-US extemists dancing the streets.....absolutely. Will that increase if it is perceived that the West is attacking the religion and not the extemists?

I could go on through each country listed. My point is we need a policy to address the extemists and not attack the religion by cherry-picking passages of the Koran.

We need to be pressuring more moderate muslims to speak out and to reform the radical components of their religion as christianity did over time.

We need to be countering the anti-American propaganda that is spread throughout the muslim world by Al Jazeera.

We dont need to be enflaming the majority of moderate muslims with rhetoric that comes across as an attack on their religion.
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Old 10-07-2006, 10:55 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I'm sorry.....

the "Executive Summary", posted above, is available at this link:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-436es.html

To me, the "cast of character" below, seems more likely to fund a corporatist propaganda "message", than it seems likely to fund any reliable "Executive Summary", that would be of benfit to someone with no profit agenda....like.....me!
Quote:
http://www.cato.org/sponsors/sponsors.html
Sponsors

Three-quarters of Cato's support comes from private individuals with 14,000 individuals having contributed in the past year. The balance of our support is from the sale of publications or from foundations and corporations. To ensure our independence, Cato accepts no funding from the government and does not perform research on a contract basis for any third parties.

<b>Corporate Sponsors</b>

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Old 10-07-2006, 06:48 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
I'm sorry.....

the "Executive Summary", posted above, is available at this link:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-436es.html

To me, the "cast of character" below, seems more likely to fund a corporatist propaganda "message", than it seems likely to fund any reliable "Executive Summary", that would be of benfit to someone with no profit agenda....like.....me!
Which doesn't mean much more to me than the accusation that fjordman is a eurofascist. You want to convince me (and others who think like me)? Rebut the summary itself and lay off on attacking the authors. Just because someone has an agenda doesn't mean they aren't correct!
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Old 10-07-2006, 10:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I've read all these posts, and have been caught up in all the hoopla. But what really remains is this: How many of you actually know any real Europeans? (my apologies if any posters actually are, I haven't read your profiles) I could get on Skype right now (actually, on Monday, during the work week) and talk to a Swiss, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede, a German, a Spaniard, several Dutch and a few Russians about this issue. Not to mention Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians, and any number of other nationalities. All are people I know, and people who are aware of what's going on in the world, not just caught up in their own stuff.

All would agree with this fact - it is good that America is standing strong against the enemies of freedom, in this current Islamofacist relevation. Because we are doing it means that they don't have to.
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Old 10-08-2006, 04:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
 
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For the record, my questioning whether the fjordman was a "eurofacist" was intended to highlight that such terms are perjorative and are used mostly for political purposes rather than to reflect the true nature of the person(s).

Is it really necessary to provide a definition of fascism?

What is gained by using such a fallacious description as islamofacist? The Muslim extremists are hijacked their religion. My point is that we are better served by working with the hundreds of millions of moderate muslims than providing them with a reason to support the extemists by dispariging their religion.
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:24 AM   #40 (permalink)
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