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Old 10-23-2006, 03:54 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCB
My argument is based purely on chivalry. To me, we lose something as a society when we send out young women to the frontlines and have them getting slaughtered. We should be protecting our women, not sending them to the frontlines to fight for us
Hey, if women sign the dotted line they do so knowing full well the consequences of their actions. It's not like women are getting drafted and sent to Iraq against their will. Those women who do not wish to join the military don't have to, they can stay in the US and do whatever it is that they do.

And this is not about wanting women to be on the front lines. This is about wanting women to be able to make their own choices and do what THEY want to do.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:34 PM   #42 (permalink)
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The issue is though, it affects more then just the women.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:34 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
We just disagree then. I, someone who has actually served, do not want our girls on the front line. You, someone who has not served, want girls on the front line. Very courageous of you btw
What do you know about courage? You served? So what? Any jackass can sign the papers and join up. You're delusional if you think being in the military automatically makes you courageous. You're also delusional if you think that not being in the military makes you a coward.

I don't even understand why you brought your service up, it's not really relevant to your position on the topic at hand, a position which is apparently "I don't care about what is going on in reality, i don't care how capable women are on the battlefield, i just think that a woman's place is under the protective watch of a man."
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:36 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
What do you know about courage? You served? So what? Any jackass can sign the papers and join up. You're delusional if you think being in the military automatically makes you courageous. You're also delusional if you think that not being in the military makes you a coward.

I don't even understand why you brought your service up, it's not really relevant to your position on the topic at hand, a position which is apparently "I don't care about what is going on in reality, i don't care how capable women are on the battlefield, i just think that a woman's place is under the protective watch of a man."
Its fairly simple. You're willing to send women to do a job that you wouldnt do yourself. Pure chivalry no doubt
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:42 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
Its fairly simple. You're willing to send women to do a job that you wouldnt do yourself. Pure chivalry no doubt
If you're not over in iraq fighting right now than you're "guilty" of the exact same crime. Just because you used to be in the military doesn't mean you can't be a chicken hawk.

And, since you seem confused, let me just point out that i'm not sending anyone anywhere. I don't happen to be the commander in chief of the us military. My position is that women are capable and should be able to serve on the front lines of a conflict.
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:48 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
If you're not over in iraq fighting right now than you're "guilty" of the exact same crime. Just because you used to be in the military doesn't mean you can't be a chicken hawk.

And, since you seem confused, let me just point out that i'm not sending anyone anywhere. I don't happen to be the commander in chief of the us military. My position is that women are capable and should be able to serve on the front lines of a conflict.
Lets take this a step further.....

We're talking hypothetically about a volunteer military. What if we reinstated the draft? Would you feel that women should be sent to the front lines on a non volunteer basis?
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:07 AM   #47 (permalink)
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First of all, the US military is a volunteer military, period. This isn't a hypothetical. You cannot base your argument on the assumption of a deep and fundamental change in the way our armed forces work.

Second, even if filtherton agrees with you that women should not be drafted, there's no logical inconsistency between that belief and a belief that women should be able to serve if they so choose; therefore your question is not really pertinent.
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:15 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hiredgun
First of all, the US military is a volunteer military, period. This isn't a hypothetical. You cannot base your argument on the assumption of a deep and fundamental change in the way our armed forces work.

Second, even if filtherton agrees with you that women should not be drafted, there's no logical inconsistency between that belief and a belief that women should be able to serve if they so choose; therefore your question is not really pertinent.
Thats a helluva lot of words for not answering a question. Nice work.

Now, I repeat:

Quote:
What if we reinstated the draft? Would you feel that women should be sent to the front lines on a non volunteer basis?
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:31 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I didn't answer it because it's an irrelevant distraction. This isn't a thread about whether women should be drafted in some hypothetical future. It's a thread about whether women who volunteer in today's army should be allowed to serve in particular capacities.

If you think the questions are linked, how about you make a case for it before demanding others to answer your tangent?
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:32 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
What do you know about courage? You served? So what? Any jackass can sign the papers and join up. You're delusional if you think being in the military automatically makes you courageous. You're also delusional if you think that not being in the military makes you a coward.

I don't even understand why you brought your service up, it's not really relevant to your position on the topic at hand, a position which is apparently "I don't care about what is going on in reality, i don't care how capable women are on the battlefield, i just think that a woman's place is under the protective watch of a man."
First of all filtherton, not any jackass can sign up, fat bastards, pussies, the sick, lame and lazy need not apply becuase they wont get past a recruiter.

But NCB bringing up his service DOES make his postion more relevant to this topic, you see having been in the military gives a person better insight as to what is required to perform certian duties.

Now me personally I dont think "most" women can handle the task of front line combat.
The men will be over protective of a woman whether he is doing it intentionally or not, and could cause greater losses by just her being there.

Then the is the pure strength factor, women do not have the physical muscle mass to do most that is required to perform as a combat troop. IE hand to hand combat.
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:36 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiredgun
I didn't answer it because it's an irrelevant distraction. This isn't a thread about whether women should be drafted in some hypothetical future. It's a thread about whether women who volunteer in today's army should be allowed to serve in particular capacities.

If you think the questions are linked, how about you make a case for it before demanding others to answer your tangent?
The draft and the military are intimately linked. If you cant comprehend that, then theres no use even continuing this debate. Also, my position on this subject has been very clear: No women on the front lines under any circumstances.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:00 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Um, of course the draft and the military are linked - I can certainly 'comprehend' that, you're not speaking to a 5-year-old.

The point is whether or not the questions are linked; i.e. whether one's position on a female draft necessarily determines one's position on women volunteering for the front lines.

If the answer is no, then the former question has no place in this thread.

Since you brought it up, you obviously think the answer is yes. I want you to explain that point, since you haven't demonstrated why it makes any difference what any of us thinks about a draft.

If you really need me to answer your question first, then let's assume for the sake of argument that no, I don't think women should be drafted.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:58 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
Lets take this a step further.....

We're talking hypothetically about a volunteer military. What if we reinstated the draft? Would you feel that women should be sent to the front lines on a non volunteer basis?
Sure, as long as they're capable of what is asked of them and i doubt you can come up with a nonemotional reason why they shouldn't.

Now, let's extend your position to some sort of hypothetical situation. You obviously think women should be protected by men at all times. Do you allow your female family members to work? Can they go to the store without a male escort? We're talking about chivalry here, right? I mean, c'mon, what kind of coward lets his wife work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
First of all filtherton, not any jackass can sign up, fat bastards, pussies, the sick, lame and lazy need not apply becuase they wont get past a recruiter.

But NCB bringing up his service DOES make his postion more relevant to this topic, you see having been in the military gives a person better insight as to what is required to perform certian duties.
Well, i guess what i meant was that the military doesn't use a jackass screening process. Passing basic doesn't make you automatically courageous.

I could see NCB's service being relevant if his position had anything to do with the normal operation of the military. It doesn't, though. His position is that women need to be protected by men, and having women serving on the front lines would violate his notion of chivalry.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:20 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I think you're over-estimating the voluntary nature of the US military. You volunteered to sign on the line... after that, you go where you're needed and do what needs to be done. The draft doesn't change the question IMO.

The way I'm reading it, you want to create a special right for female service members to opt out of combat service if they're designated eligible. It's okay to send males to their death against their protests, but not them poor helpless womenfolk. I'm sure that will go over really well.

You need to put away the line about advancing sexual equality and openly admit you're trying to pull a switcheroo and place the people with girly parts in a preferential position.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:22 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Actually, lots of jackasses apply and do get into today's military. I see many nasty, disgusting Army ROTC cadets walking around my school all the time. These sad individuals are becoming officers no less.

And anyways, all it really comes down to is NCB thinks that women are less than men and that men should coddle them and keep them from doing something that they may want to do. Pure and simple NCB is just a male chauvinist.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1010011010

The way I'm reading it, you want to create a special right for female service members to opt out of combat service if they're designated eligible. It's okay to send males to their death against their protests, but not them poor helpless womenfolk. I'm sure that will go over really well.

Its already happening and I dont see much bitching and moaning about it.

Quote:
Now, let's extend your position to some sort of hypothetical situation. You obviously think women should be protected by men at all times. Do you allow your female family members to work? Can they go to the store without a male escort? We're talking about chivalry here, right? I mean, c'mon, what kind of coward lets his wife work?


Congrats on your best actress award nomination. You've earned it

Quote:
Actually, lots of jackasses apply and do get into today's military. I see many nasty, disgusting Army ROTC cadets walking around my school all the time. These sad individuals are becoming officers no less.

And anyways, all it really comes down to is NCB thinks that women are less than men and that men should coddle them and keep them from doing something that they may want to do. Pure and simple NCB is just a male chauvinist.
Nice
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:40 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB


Congrats on your best actress award nomination. You've earned it
What's a matter? Cat got your tongue? Afraid to address my question?
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:36 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Actually, lots of jackasses apply and do get into today's military. I see many nasty, disgusting Army ROTC cadets walking around my school all the time. These sad individuals are becoming officers no less.
Just because they wear the uniform does not mean they were sought-after in ROTC. I was in Navy ROTC, I dont know if you experienced it or simply look from the outside but it's very different. Our ROTC had over 80-90% attrition rate from Freshman year to Commission.

Don't make your assessment of the military on ROTC, unless they have scholarship (which few do), they are simply on a walk-on basis.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:38 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
Its already happening and I don't see much bitching and moaning about it.
No, it isn't. Women aren't eligible for combat, so the first half of the scenario isn't satisfied. In support capacities where they are likely to engage the enemy, they are not given the special privilege of opting out of the mission (convenient pregnancies aside, which is a whole 'nother sack of worms)... so the second half of the scenario isn't met either.
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