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Old 11-06-2006, 06:02 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Why are we paying for this...

Haliburton is being paid cost+ profit for their expenses. This means that the more they spend and the more inefficient they are, the more money they make. So they are doing very shady things to get their cost up while not getting noticed. For example they are charging $45 for a 6 pack of coke, they are charging $85,000 for an oil filter, they are driving empty trucks around, when a truck gets a flat they are ditching the truck and buying new ones. This is horrible.

This is what happens when we have no bid contracts given out to friends so they can get rich. This is what happens when there is no oversight. This is what happens when people are afraid to speak out for being labeled a terrorist sympathizer. Say thanks to Bush and Cheny for increasing our debt 4 trillion dollars and putting the money and their and their friends pockets.


http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/Schum...ton061704.html
Quote:
NEW HALLIBURTON MISCUES REVEALED: $45 CASES OF COKE, "$85,000 OIL FILTERS", EMPLOYEES PAID NOT TO WORK

Whistleblowers' statements confirm: Halliburton gouging the federal government at every turn - from laundry service to supply truck repairs; Haliburton defying Army orders and inflating prices by up to 300%

Schumer, Durbin, Waxman call on the GAO to launch a full investigation into all Haliburton contracts and requisitions

Halliburton equivalent of the "$600 toilet seat" uncovered

US Senators Charles E. Schumer and Richard Durbin and Congressman Henry Waxman today revealed shocking examples of jaw-dropping price gouging and extraordinary waste by Halliburton and its subsidiaries that have put our men and women in uniform at risk and cost Americans billions in misspent tax dollars. Pointing to Halliburton's equivalents of the famed "$600 toilet seats", including $45 dollar cases of coke and "$85,000 oil filters". Based on these reports Schumer, Durbin and Waxman called for a full investigation by the GAO into every Halliburton contract and requisition.

"Waste, neglect, lack of oversight–these are exactly the things we do not need in a situation as volatile as the one in the Iraq," said Schumer, pointing to an incredibly overpriced can of soda. "These blatant examples of price gouging are reminiscent of the famed "$600 toilet seat" and are exactly what we do not need when our troops are in harms way and wanting for the resources they need and we are so squeezed for funding here at home for such vital needs as health care and education."

"The statements of the six individuals...portray a company and contracting environment that has run amok," wrote Waxman in a recent letter.

“The reports of fraudulent and atrocious behavior on the part of Halliburton and its subsidiaries are stunning – driving empty trucks back and forth while billing the federal government for each trip; charging the taxpayers for 240,000 cases of soda instead of the 240,000 cans they actually delivered; abandoning $85,000 vehicles by the side of the road when they got flat tires rather than making repairs because each truck was just another cost-plus item on a federal contract,” said Durbin. “When you consider the fact that we have 138,000 of our finest men and women risking their lives in Iraq, how can we possibly turn our backs on this type of outrageous profiteering? Why would Congress or the Administration even hesitate about getting to the bottom of a situation that may have cost the taxpayers millions so far and may cost us more in the future?”

Recent statements by Halliburton whistleblowers have revealed a pattern of waste, negligence and lack of proper oversight. The statements also pointed to a concerted effort whithin the company to hide out of control costs. Procurement supervisors tiold employees to break down large requisitions so they cost less than $2,500 each -- the level below which they would not be scrutinized. According to a whistleblower, it didn't matter how unreasonably high a bid was, if it was broken up into segments of under $2,500 it was virtually guaranteed to be accepted.

The most egregious whistleblower revelations include:

$45 cases of Coke: Halliburton subcontracted with La Nouvelle, a Kuwaiti company, to provide 37,200 cases of soda and ice per month for the remarkable price of $45 for a 30 can case. In one La Nouvelle delivered 37,200 only cans of soda–even though 37,200 cases had been order.

"$85,000 Oil Filters": A former Halliburton "convoy commander" revealed that Halliburton refused to perform even the most basic maintenance on their trucks, such as replacing oil filters, performing oil changes or replacing flat tires. Once a truck got a flat or the filter stopped working, the truck would be abandoned and replaced by a brand new $85,000 truck. One employee drove a truck 59,000 miles without an oil change before it had to be abandoned. Another of the whistleblowers actually cleaned his filter with gasoline to keep his truck working. One truck was abandoned because of a $25 hydraulic line needed to assist the clutch. The line from the mechanics was, "We may not have any filters, but Iraq has plenty of oil."

$100 for 15 lbs Bags of Laundry: Another contract with La Nouvelle for laundry services had a fixed price of between $1 million and $1.2 million per month. Because so little laundry was being done, Halliburton was paying approximately $100 per 15-pound bag of laundry. Under a separate subcontract with the same company, Halliburton was paying on $28 per bag. When a whistleblower brought this to her superiors' attention and recommended renegotiating the million dollar contract, she was told to discontinue her analysis and cease her attempts to fix the problem.

Embroidered Hand Towels: Halliburton ordered embroidered hand towels at 3 times the cost of unembroidered hand towels.

Empty Convoys: Convoys would routinely run with several empty trucks. One convoy ran with 28 empty trucks. These trucks weren't decoys for security purposes -- in fact, they undermined security since some convoys would be as much as two miles long with only three security vehicles protecting them.

Falsified Time Sheets: Employees who had no work to do were told to submit false time sheets claiming 12 hours of work per day and to walk around and "look busy."

Such price gouging was designed to allow Halliburton to maximize the profit from their no bid, plus cost contracts. Given the number and seriousness of these revelations a full investigation by the GAO into every contract secured by Halliburton and its subsidiaries is clearly required. Only by understanding how widespread these outrageous actions are will the proper steps be able to be taken to end such waste, fraud and abuse and insure that America's men and women in uniform are provided with the highest quality services and support at the best cost.
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Why are we paying for this?
Because they take the genpop as dumbfucks and think they can get away with it...and except for those of us who keep informed, theyre right
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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NCB....I know you like obscure bills in Congress:

Quote:
While surging violence grabs headlines, Iraq reconstruction continues to fall far short of U.S. and Iraqi goals, further undermining stability in the nascent democracy.

And in a “shoot the messenger” coup de grâce, the latest casualty in the war may be the office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) whose investigations have exposed waste, fraud, and mismanagement of billions of dollars spent by U.S. taxpayers in rebuilding Iraq.

In a stealth blow during a closed-door conference on a major defense bill, the Republican side of the House Armed Services Committee inserted a provision to shutdown the Special Inspector General (IG) office led by Stuart Bowen Jr.

Bowen’s office opened in Januar 2004 with the task of tracking the $18 billion in U.S. taxpayer dollars initially allocated for Iraqi reconstruction. The Special IG office was supposed to be temporary, but then again so was the war.

full article: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15591657/
The SIGIR quarterly progress reports and audits were the best way for the public and Congress to be "kept informed". Could it be the Repubs did not like that the SIGIR reports, while citing progress in some areas, were highly critical of the waste, fraud and corruption in the reconstruction effort in other areas?

http://www.sigir.mil/
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Last edited by dc_dux; 11-06-2006 at 06:58 PM..
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Nobody likes corruption, even us wascally wepublicans. However, to think that this crap is anything new and is limited to just one party is either naive or dishonest.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
Nobody likes corruption, even us wascally wepublicans. However, to think that this crap is anything new and is limited to just one party is either naive or dishonest.
Halliburton no-bid contracts under Clinton = good.
Halliburton no-bid contracts under Bush = bad.

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Old 11-06-2006, 07:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Absolutely....corruption is just as old as the US democracy itself and neither party is immune.

But in the case of US tax dollars for Iraq reconstruction, it was the Dems (with a few Repubs) in the Senate in '04 who insisted on an amendment to require the quarterly SIGIR reports (which is why some Dems first voted against Iraq emergency spending, then voted for it, when the amendment was added)....and it is the Repubs in the House trying to kill the only oversight of how our tax dollars are being spent in Iraq.

But I can see why you would rather generalize.

Quote:
Haliburton no-bid contracts under Clinton = good.
There were Hliburton no-bid contracts under Clinton? I guessed I missed that
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
There were Hliburton no-bid contracts under Clinton? I guessed I missed that
Yes, during the unjustified "war" in the Balkans.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Thanks....Now that I think about it, I think I do recall Haillburton contracts in the "UN sanctioned" operation in Kosovo to prevent genocide. If there wasnt oversight by an independent agency llike SIGIR, shame on the Congress back then as well.

I just dont understand why some continue to offer excuses and rationalizations ("they did it) for not holding the current Repub Congress and Bush accountable for how our money is being spent in Iraq.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Thanks....Now that I think about it, I think I do recall Haillburton contracts in the "UN sanctioned" operation in Kosovo to prevent genocide. If there wasnt oversight by an independent agency llike SIGIR, shame on the Congress back then as well.

I just dont understand why some continue to offer excuses and rationalizations ("they did it) for not holding the current Repub Congress and Bush accountable for how our money is being spent in Iraq.
Nobody is offering up excuses. I think we can all agree that it sucks balls that the govt cares little about the $$$ we fork over to them.
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"No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits.... Climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world."
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Old 11-06-2006, 08:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Then I hope you will agree with me that this effort by the repubs on the House Armed Services Committee to kill the SIGIR program is one of those stupid laws (or amendments) to be introduced in Congress this year.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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There is a reason there is a no-bid contract on this, because no other company has the experience that Haliburton has in supplying our troops. What you don't understand is although expensive, Haliburton supplies, and DELIVERS, required equipment and supplies our troops require... and they require a lot.

This isn't simple economics, in simple economics if an item is not delivered costs run up and the project gets delayed. If these items are not delivered people die. Personally I'd rather pay the extra money to ensure that does not happen. Haliburton is an ENORMOUS company which has proved reliable in supplying our military for years.

And the usage of the analogy of the $600 toilet seat shows how the critics do not fully realize the military equipment bureacracy. It was not a simple plastic toilet seat lid which cost $600, it was an entire toilet for a B-52 bomber. What makes this $600? Well it required multiple pressure chambers, all immune to corrosion caused by waste, so that when a pilot (in a pressurized cabin) sat and defacated his bowels were not pulled from his body. It had to be reinforced so that an exposed and thus weakened part of the fuselage was not an Achillies heel, nevermind the paper thin aluminum shell in the rest of the aircraft. So you can see that after passing all these Colonels and Generals the price of the toilet could skyrocket, nevermind the fact that the limitted number which would be produced would inherantly drive up costs.

Apply this formula to Iraq, where you have to drive across a county the size of Texas full of people who purposefully target these convoys. These drivers are not military personell, so to volunteer for this job ENORMOUS sums of money are thrown at them... extend that money for training. Then, because the military can not provide adequate defenses for every convoy, hire at great costs ex-military mercenaries... which get expensive fast. Then realize that you're providing everything from toothpics to bullets to over 100k people who need these items daily.

Yes, it's expensive. Every war in history has been expensive. However this Haliburton hate is unfounded, the company has served plenty of Presidents in the past and has a proven record which very few if any companies can boast.

... Just be glad the people who are doing the Big Dig didn't get the job...
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
Haliburton is being paid cost+ profit for their expenses. This means that the more they spend and the more inefficient they are, the more money they make. So they are doing very shady things to get their cost up while not getting noticed. For example they are charging $45 for a 6 pack of coke, they are charging $85,000 for an oil filter, they are driving empty trucks around, when a truck gets a flat they are ditching the truck and buying new ones. This is horrible.

This is what happens when we have no bid contracts given out to friends so they can get rich. This is what happens when there is no oversight. This is what happens when people are afraid to speak out for being labeled a terrorist sympathizer. Say thanks to Bush and Cheny for increasing our debt 4 trillion dollars and putting the money and their and their friends pockets.


http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/Schum...ton061704.html
Well, then you know who to vote for tomorrow don't you?
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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There is no reason to politicize this. Both sides of the aisle are responsible for this one along with lots of other things. It is very simple to think that having a (D) or an (R) following a person we have never met's name makes a difference. The fact that Halliburton may have taken advantage of their contract is not a lot different than the rest of us being taken advantage of by our elected officials.

The rate that incumbents get re-elected in this country (well above 90%) ought to signify a general feeling of satisfaction with the ones we have in office. Both sides are taking advantage of us and then telling us that if we don't vote for them (even though they are the lesser of two evils) that they are doomed.

Very few candidates even make a passing attempt at addressing their own merit on anything other than straw-man issues. Instead the "boogie man" might get elected so you better continue to vote for me. Let me be the one to tell you, this kind of thing is not going to end any time soon no matter who gets elected tomorrow.
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
There is a reason there is a no-bid contract on this, because no other company has the experience that Haliburton has in supplying our troops. What you don't understand is although expensive, Haliburton supplies, and DELIVERS, required equipment and supplies our troops require... and they require a lot.

This isn't simple economics, in simple economics if an item is not delivered costs run up and the project gets delayed. If these items are not delivered people die. Personally I'd rather pay the extra money to ensure that does not happen. Haliburton is an ENORMOUS company which has proved reliable in supplying our military for years.

And the usage of the analogy of the $600 toilet seat shows how the critics do not fully realize the military equipment bureacracy. It was not a simple plastic toilet seat lid which cost $600, it was an entire toilet for a B-52 bomber. What makes this $600? Well it required multiple pressure chambers, all immune to corrosion caused by waste, so that when a pilot (in a pressurized cabin) sat and defacated his bowels were not pulled from his body. It had to be reinforced so that an exposed and thus weakened part of the fuselage was not an Achillies heel, nevermind the paper thin aluminum shell in the rest of the aircraft. So you can see that after passing all these Colonels and Generals the price of the toilet could skyrocket, nevermind the fact that the limitted number which would be produced would inherantly drive up costs.

Apply this formula to Iraq, where you have to drive across a county the size of Texas full of people who purposefully target these convoys. These drivers are not military personell, so to volunteer for this job ENORMOUS sums of money are thrown at them... extend that money for training. Then, because the military can not provide adequate defenses for every convoy, hire at great costs ex-military mercenaries... which get expensive fast. Then realize that you're providing everything from toothpics to bullets to over 100k people who need these items daily.

Yes, it's expensive. Every war in history has been expensive. However this Haliburton hate is unfounded, the company has served plenty of Presidents in the past and has a proven record which very few if any companies can boast.

... Just be glad the people who are doing the Big Dig didn't get the job...

Nothing you have posted here explains why Coke bottled in Kuwait costs $7.5 a can, or why an oil filter is $85,000. And it definetly doesn't explain why they are driving empty trucks around and telling their employees to say they worked 12 hours a day even if they didn't or why they told their employees to "just look busy". I'm sorry but your attempt to excuse this behavior doesn't work. Did you even read the article?
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I am sorry but in a country taht has no coke getting a case of 30 for $45 is not such a bad deal. I have been over there (the middle east) and have seen government orders and how things are acquired. Its never cheap and things cost a lot more. Now if Haliburton was able to run down to the local 7-11 then 45 dollars would be a little outrageous.
They do not have those options and if you have to spend a little more to bring a little bit of home to the American in Iraq then I say go ahead and do it.
Most people inthe united states see things on paper and have no idea idea what it takes to make certain things happen. Sometimes it takes more than people understand.
I am not saying that Haliburton is not padding their bill, I am sure they are, but congress approved it and I am sure there are poiliticians on both sides getting rich of this whole no bid thing that haliburton managed to chum its way into.

Next time anybody goes to Iraq and see Haliburton trucks doing nothing or driving around just to drive around let us all know. I addressed the 7 dollar coke. Think about how much people pay for cokes at concerts and other expensive places. It can cost upwards of 5 dollars for a single12 OZ can.
Now the 85,000 dollar filter. So its a filter.
What kind of Filter? What is it's application? How many microns will it filter out? What is the life expectancy? What is it made of? Until you can answer some of these questions, there can be no answer to yours.
I have seen and $93,000 engine replaced because of a small failed part but in order to replace that part it would have cost the Government about $150,000 in man hours and special tools and was simply cheaper to replace the entire engine. Now if you said that a $93,000 engine was replaced because a 25 dollar part failed, it sounds crazy, but if you say that it would have cost $150,000 to get that part replaced then spending the money to replace the engine makes more sense.

If you were drinving a truck in a convoy through Iraq that may or may be being escorted. Do you want to be the guy that gets to chane that tire. I know I wouldn't want to. It is far cheaper to replace that truck then to replace the contractor.

We cannot see the whole story of what goes on in Iraq. The media reports what it thinks will make people read the articles and watch the stories and in turn the commercials and paid advertising. It's all about the dollar.
I am not saying that there is not some waste going on, but the actual amount of waste being created may be an exxageration.
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Last edited by florida0214; 11-07-2006 at 01:14 PM.. Reason: More to add
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I hope everyone knows that Haliburton has and continues to botch the job. Remember that Haliburton failed to protect the water supply throughout Iraq, the water that our troops were drinking. It's not uncommon for proposals to be filled with unreliable figures and to give kick backs to subcontractors or politicans.
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida0214
I am not saying that Haliburton is not padding their bill, I am sure they are, but congress approved it and I am sure there are poiliticians on both sides getting rich of this whole no bid thing that haliburton managed to chum its way into.
That's the heart of the problem. The lobbyists and proximity of both legislative and executive branches to corporate interests. I dont' know how corrupt the judicial is - what's their track record with this stuff? I recall the decision to allow private businesses to condemn property via local governments.
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Clarification,

There is no $85,000 oil filter, the complaint is that instead of providing routine maintenance they replace the $85,000 vehicle.


I don't necessarily have a problem with no-bid contracts as long as things are kept in order. You can say that nobody else has the experience to do it, well nobody will until they are given the opportunity.
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I thought the argument was that private sector organizations could do logistics and supply cheaper than the public one? Does this mean that if the military supplied themselves it would cost more?
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:42 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I thought the argument was that private sector organizations could do logistics and supply cheaper than the public one? Does this mean that if the military supplied themselves it would cost more?
Yes only being the government it wouldn't be held accountable.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:52 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida0214
I am sorry but in a country taht has no coke getting a case of 30 for $45 is not such a bad deal. I have been over there (the middle east) and have seen government orders and how things are acquired. Its never cheap and things cost a lot more. Now if Haliburton was able to run down to the local 7-11 then 45 dollars would be a little outrageous.
They do not have those options and if you have to spend a little more to bring a little bit of home to the American in Iraq then I say go ahead and do it.
I live in the Middle East now and I can buy a can of Coke at the corner shop for about 27 US cents. I won't though, as Coke is a client of ours and I can get it for free in my office. We don't get the cans in the office however, we get the glass bottles. Interestingly enough, the bottles are manufactured in Kuwait. It says so on the bottom.
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