02-24-2011, 07:03 PM | #1 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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What should be done about the pirates in Somalia?
A few days ago, a group of pirates took over a sailboat with 4 Americans on-board. It looks like the US Navy stepped in (after being shot at), and things didn't turn out so good.
Now, this has been going on for some time. And the USA Today thinks that organized crime has taken over instead of out-of-work fishermen. 4 American hostages killed by pirates, U.S. says - USATODAY.com Now, what should be done with Somalia? Should we just leave them alone and make all ships travel down to South Africa? Or should the UN or the major naval nations setup a blockade 12 miles off the coast. Any ships departing Somalia and crossing that line will be sunk? I know the Russians have taken a hard line stance and are using the old maritime laws on piracy to kill pirates. How Russians Deal With Pirates They just blow up the pirates boat with them tied up on it. I am thinking that the second option would be the right one. I know that there are already naval warships from lots of different nations there, but I don't see why we couldn't work together and block every boat along the 1800 mile long coast. Most of the coast is desert and wouldn't have much activity. Oh, and the 15 pirates that the Navy caught. I would recommend that they be shot or made to walk the plank a few hundred miles from shore. Why should we have to pay millions of taxpayer dollars to bring them here, put them on trial, and house them in jail for ~30 years? Last edited by ASU2003; 02-24-2011 at 07:07 PM.. |
02-24-2011, 07:29 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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I have to agree with enforcing old Pirate Law. Honestly right now there's no downside to a Somali pirate. If you succeed you get more money than most in America will ever see in their lives. If you fail... you get regular meals and a bed for the rest of your life.
It's a daunting task that you can't catch everyone... but if a boat leaves the Somali Coast and they have guns either all guns must be thrown overboard or punch a hole in the boat and let them swim.
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02-25-2011, 05:26 AM | #3 (permalink) |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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There was an Italian cruise line that hired Israeli guards and in 2009 that fought off pirates.
I am all for taking the fight there with a zero tolerance rule. If combat happens use over whelming force, until they get the picture. The pirates for the most part are teens and early 20s they make a fortune of money, and are treated like royalty. If we remove that incentive by using guards and force then it will be harder for them to recruit.
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02-25-2011, 05:38 AM | #4 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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There's a better way to fight piracy coming out of Somalia.
Finding an end to the civil war, finding an end to illegal foreign fishing, and finding a solution to the toxic waste problem. THE TWO PIRACIES IN SOMALIA: WHY THE WORLD IGNORES THE OTHER? 3. Toxic Waste Behind Somali Pirates | Project Censored Alshahid Network Somalia deputy prime minister: Toxic waste dumping in Somali coast is the cause of piracy If all of this comes as a surprise to you (as it had to me), this might help you understand why: Jeff Nygaard: Pirates, Profits and Propaganda Brief history lesson: the civil war in Somalia has been going on since 1991, where 300,000 to 400,000 people have died (that's 3 to 4 times the estimated number of civilian deaths in the Iraq war). In 2010 alone, more than 3,000 people have died.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-25-2011 at 05:45 AM.. |
02-25-2011, 05:56 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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it might also help if governments stopped restricting the right to bear arms.
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02-25-2011, 09:12 AM | #7 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Your Constitutional rights end at the border. And I don't think that anyone has ever said that sailors can't arm themselves. But let's keep this on pirates, shall we? Really, I don't see where there's much to be done beyond setting up a task force to watch for pirates. An international peacekeeping force isn't going to be able to accomplish much with no government to prop up, only feuding warlords. Elections are pretty much impossible. The Etheopians have had some success bringing some stability to the southern parts of the country, but that's limited at best. And enforcing the old pirate codes would be distasteful to many of the countries that would normally be called on to do so.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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02-25-2011, 10:17 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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the point is, how does one fare against a group of priates with automatic weapons, unless that person has automatic weapons? can an american citizen get an automatic weapon to keep on his boat when out sailing???? no, because the government doesn't want civilians to be as equally armed as they are, so we civilians just have to be outgunned on the open seas.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-25-2011, 10:20 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i'm not sure that more weapons would fit into somalia.
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i'm not sure how much there is to be done. john wayne shoot-em-up fantasies are unlikely to have much effect. it's clear that many of the folk who engage in this action are willing to risk their lives for the big pay-offs. stabilizing the political and economic situations would likely help, but as usual with such things there's neither agreement nor mechanisms that enable transnational action to happen. so nothing will.
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02-25-2011, 10:25 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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dk, given that the piracy zone is literally on the other side of the planet and that any sailors going into that zone would by necessity have to go through other ports to get to the piracy zone where they would have much easier access to purchasing automatic weapons, I can't decide if you're trolling this thread or just throwing up a strawman. This is not a purely American problem by any means. This is an international problem.
So:
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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02-25-2011, 11:05 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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And I'm not talking about invading Somalia or bringing elections and a stable government. Maybe we could help Ethiopia take over part of the country to give them access to the sea, but that is a different discussion. All I am suggesting is a change in tactics. A more offensive stance if you will. Many countries currently have to provide military escorts to convoys of ships sailing in that region. The military ships, helicopters, and UAVs are there. The UN or any one country isn't stepping up and coming up with a unified strategy of working together to stop pirates from leaving Somalia. And this is the main reason that this and other countries created Navies and kept them around. We pay billions of dollars for all the ships we have, yet in the old days they had no choice but to kill criminals (they didn't have the food rations or space to keep them), yet it also was a pretty good deterrent. I have no problems with warning them, but if they make the decision to go out to sea and look for ships to hold for ransom, they should be stopped. And yes, over fishing and pollution might have been the reasons this started, but now it is a fairly low risk business venture for the druglords on land to make lots of money. |
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02-25-2011, 11:24 AM | #12 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I think that you'd find that a majority of the nations that would normally respond to a call for naval assistance (read: Western Europe) would require a caveat barring executions. An international task force that would enforce the laws as written would involve some strange bedfellows - Russia, China, Iran, Egypt, the US, etc.
The thing is that this smells a bit like "welfare queens" to me. By that I mean that you're looking at this as a low risk venture with no downside. It takes serious despiration to get into an open boat with a bunch of other armed men to chase down ships. I don't see that portion of the act as "low risk" given the possibilities of storms, breakdowns, bad navigation, failure to find any ships, etc. let alone finding a naval vessel by mistake. Let's remember that we have -no- data on how many pirates set out and never come back. It could be a huge percentage. It could be that all of them come back. We don't know. And I can't imagine that pirates think that jail in a foreign country is a spectacular tradeoff either. Finally, drugs are the problem in Somalia. If they were, there would be a bigger international outcry to fix the problem. These are simple warlords, interested only in controlling their little nest of territory.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
02-25-2011, 12:38 PM | #13 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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1) Do we start taking measures to provide for our own protection, or 2) Do we demand that governments around the world add the expense of increasing attack ships and combat sailors to patrol enough of the ocean to protect against pirates?
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-25-2011, 12:49 PM | #14 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
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UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, Article 100:
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I think we should step up naval escorts in the area and radically rebalance the pirate's cost-benefit analysis. Right now, the benefits of piracy, appear to far outweigh the potential costs of piracy.
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02-25-2011, 12:55 PM | #15 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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If I remember my Gilbert and Sullivan, all that needs to be done is for the Major General to invoke the pirates' loyalty to the Queen. They're all noblemen gone wrong, after all.
As far as I'm concerned, the Somali pirate problem is social and economic at it's core. Somalia is still a country living in extreme poverty, leaving piracy as a viable method for making money and securing the future of one's family. This is classic in failed states, where people without access to regular opportunities, turn to alternative opportunities in order to make ends meet. It's so simple, even Time Magazine figured it out, eventually. In short the answer is, and I can't believe I'm typing this, nation-building. I'm not talking about unilateral invasion, occupation, foreign contractors, never-ending war, etc., I'm talking about a new type of nation building, which works a little bit at a time. |
02-25-2011, 01:19 PM | #16 (permalink) | |||||
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Oh, where are you, Ustwo, to insert one of your facepalm pics? It's so desperately needed here!
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Oh, and "shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Hymn refers directly to the Barbary Wars of the 1790's against the Barbary pirates who raided US shipping. Quote:
Governments are not "doing little". But it's a big ocean and there's only so much that they can do. Quote:
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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02-25-2011, 01:35 PM | #17 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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that says it all right there. that's the obvious solution, except that it will never fit in with the general sheeple mindset.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-25-2011, 01:50 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Dk, you're waaaaaaaay out of your league here. It's obvious that you don't even know anything about the guns that you want to discuss. Because if you did, you'd already know that some ship owners are putting armed mercenaries on some of their ships in the region, and those mercenaries have had some success in repelling pirates. Some ship owners have also armed their crew, although not all crewmen want to be armed. Give it up, man. You're just making yourself look stupid, which you're not. But someone who hasn't seen your other posts might assume that you are.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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02-25-2011, 01:58 PM | #19 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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So what can be done beyond the 20+ nation anti-piracy naval commitments that are currently being undertaken in the area?
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-25-2011, 02:10 PM | #20 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
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/facetious
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02-25-2011, 02:23 PM | #21 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I was hoping someone would bring up nukes.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-25-2011, 02:36 PM | #22 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I think we can all agree that if the people on the sailboat were armed to the teeth, it would have been more difficult for pirates to take it over. It could have lead to a massive shootout at sea of the kinds we might see in a Bond movie, but the vessel would have been more difficult to take. Though I hate guns, I'm able to admit that.
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02-25-2011, 02:42 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-25-2011, 02:50 PM | #24 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Then you should have said it instead of doing a drive-by on the the thread, dk. And maybe you want to deign to come down off that mountain of guns you're sitting on to tell us believers in naval power why we should arm recreational sailors that are dumb enough to leave their convoys in known pirate areas.
Do you have any evidence that any of these folks wanted to carry guns? No, you don't. Do you have any evidence that if they wanted to carry guns that they were denied them? No, you don't. Do you know anything about the naval task force operating in the area? No, you don't. Congratulations, you've successfully trolled the thread. Whee.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
03-12-2011, 01:05 PM | #26 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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$600 might be a lot if a house cost $5,000, food was $100/year, and a boat cost $1200... And if all of your neighbors were making that amount too...
But rebuilding an economy can only be done if there isn't a large criminal cartel glamorizing 'easy' money |
03-12-2011, 01:26 PM | #27 (permalink) |
Alien Anthropologist
Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana
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Give them a "Trial At Sea". Perhaps they need to be keelhauled first.
I'm tired of pirates who think they can make the rules. They are wrong, and they need to be dealt with.
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03-12-2011, 04:07 PM | #28 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Or if there isn't a decades-long civil war....
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
03-13-2011, 02:38 PM | #29 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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exactly.
these pirates are terrible and must be dealt with accordingly. that said, I feel bad for them. their country is broke, their jobs are broke, weapons plentiful... if i were attacked i'd have no issues killing them. at the same time, were it possible to help them learn to help themselves, i'd rather take that route. all i'm saying is its not much different than most street gangs. kid has nothing, no food, shelter, care.... he finds it with thugs. it's a vicious cycle. |
03-14-2011, 12:19 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Well shit. It turns out that the Somali pirate situation is a bit more complicated than the Western Media has led us to believe.
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This is more than a little distressing to read. While there are some Somali pirates that are just thieves, many are trying desperately to protect their territorial waters from exploitation by polluters and commercial over-fishing. In our push to take on Somali pirates, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the British, Chinese and Americans are all to glad to lump in the righteous with the guilty. I was very wrong above. The solution to this is not simply nation-building, it's going after polluters and commercial fishermen so that Somalia has even a chance to become a functioning nation again. Without fishing in safe seas, Somalia faces no real options in rebooting their economy. |
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03-15-2011, 09:54 AM | #31 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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There are definitely international crimes and incursions into Somalian waters, but hijacking sailboats, naval ships, and shipping vessels with lots of guns isn't the way to stop the dumping.
In the paper today, it said that 5 were convicted in the attack on a US Navy ship and will spend the rest of their lives in a US prison, that probably costs more than Tent City or a bullet. India captured 61 the other day, yet I don't know what they will do. They have enough people to take care of too. |
03-15-2011, 10:08 AM | #32 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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So, again, the problem with Somalia isn't the pirates.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
03-15-2011, 12:48 PM | #34 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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The symptom has become the problem.
What 'may' have started as a bunch of fishermen commandeering fishing boats and waste barges has turned into hijacking sailboats and other craft that have every right to safely pass through their waters without getting taken for ransom. |
03-15-2011, 03:59 PM | #35 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Oh, I'm not saying the pirates don't cause problems in those waters. I'm saying that it doesn't help all that much to focus on them as one aspect. You aren't going to stop piracy simply by catching and punishing all the pirates you can.
Why did we go into Afghanistan? Why didn't we just try to catch the terrorists coming out of there? Wasn't the problem simply with the terrorists? No. Most violence in the world has deeper root causes that go beyond the direct violence itself. We can focus on the violence to make us feel better that we're doing something to halt it. But will it stop more violence from arising? Not necessarily. Think about criminal activity. Much of that is tied into poverty. Poverty itself isn't necessarily solved by throwing money at it either. Like most major problems, it requires a multifaceted solution. In the case of poverty, it's often an issue of access to quality education (especially among women) and affordable health care and housing. With the piracy, the source is tied into a number of problems: civil war, pollution, illegal fishing, etc. You can go after the pirates, yes, but will it stop the piracy. I don't know. I say not likely. Why do we always think about Somalia these days when we think of piracy? What about all those other pirates causing problems elsewhere? What do you have to say about them?
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
03-15-2011, 07:35 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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The problem with Somalia is the warlords and gangs now control everything. They have the money, they have the power. The international Navies could easily contain the pirates by using technology and lethal force. This has gone on long enough. Sure you can leaf the towns with filers saying if they go out to sea, they will die to warn them not to, but nothing can be done to fix the country until you stop the piracy. And I feel the same way about piracy in Hawaii, Mexico, and the Caribbean. It isn't as frequent or as far away from the coast like in Somalia, but piracy needs to be dealt with in the same way. There are enough people on this planet, nobody will miss a few thugs. |
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03-15-2011, 08:08 PM | #38 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Well, there are lots of things amiss in Somalia. The piracy to me seems like the tip of the iceberg. If there were an easy solution to stop the piracy, it would have been accomplished by now, if not reduced to a marginal issue. While it's a terrible thing that those 4 Americans lost their lives recently, it's a much greater travesty that the so-far-20-year Somali civil war death toll is up to 300,000 or 400,000. That's equivalent to about half the population of Washington, D.C. Oh, and toxic waste and illegal fishing. Somalia has been metaphorically raped repeatedly over a couple of decades now, and everyone is crying foul about the pirates but don't seem all that concerned about stopping the other stuff that's happening in the area. Yes, the piracy is bad. Yes, it would be great to stop it. Throwing naval power at it won't necessarily stop it. They've tried that. They're still trying it.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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