03-18-2011, 12:30 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Another Isolated Incident
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Here we're provided with further evidence that the United States' greatest terrorism threat doesn't come from Muslims, but rather the radical right-wing. Despite fervent claims from the right that this long, long line of domestic terrorists who happen to all be right-wingers are simply isolated incidents, crazy people the motivations of which can't be linked to political ideology, this man's motivations align all too perfectly with those present in the conservative media: the mosque at ground zero, abortion, homosexuality, and nationalism. In fact, this man's hateful rant could have appeared word for word on Glenn Beck. There can be no reasonable doubt that this man is a right-winger and there can be no doubt that this man's political beliefs, married with the political climate and his own emotional instabilities, were on course to result in bitter tragedy. Moose, like the dozens if not hundreds in the last few decades, represents a clear and persistent danger and begs more than a few questions, imho: Do you recognize the pattern of right-wing extremism? What does this pattern in right-wing violence and potential violence mean to you? Do you feel more in danger from radical Arab or Islamic terrorism or from right-wing terrorism? What can legally be done to stem the tide of hatred without violating the Constitution? Where are the moderate conservatives on this issue? Why aren't there, instead of apologists, prominent right wingers lambasting the media and GOP for fostering extremism? |
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03-18-2011, 03:44 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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why is it that those who are willing to take to violence to protect freedom are considered extremists or right wing radicals?
---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ---------- here's an idea.....try not violating the constitutional rights when you force your agenda down the throats of people that want to be left alone
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
03-18-2011, 03:57 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Bombing innocent people is the very definition of not leaving people alone. |
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03-18-2011, 04:37 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Sorry, but how is building a Mosque at ground zero violating people's rights (note: they aren't even building a new one there, it's a community centre). If anything this nut job, by his own set of rules, should be supporting the right to build a mosque.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
03-18-2011, 07:05 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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here's my problem with the broad brush.
you want to take a handful of idiots who hate muslims and use THAT as your example of right wing extremism instead of isolated incidents, yet let me throw up 2 dozen examples of police misconduct that occur in two days and broad brush all police as bullying psycopaths, and half or more of you are adamant that they are just isolated incidents. but i guess you can all call that false equivalence and stick to your talking points.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
03-18-2011, 07:35 PM | #7 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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First off, what does the thread topic have to do with crooked cops? This thread is about a pattern of extremist right-wing related violence and attempted violence. I don't think it's unfair of me to expect for people posting in this thread to include their thoughts about that particular topic.
Second, yes, there are a lot of cops who are bullying psychopaths. A lot of cops are high on their own farts, have no clue what civil rights are, let alone respect for them, and some are more deserving of prison time than the people they catch. That said, I do not expect an abortion clinic or mosque to be blown up by a crooked cop. I've not seen a specific pattern of cops committing or attempting to commit acts of domestic terrorism for political ends. Whether you intended it or not, your first post in this thread defended an attempted mosque and abortion clinic bomber as someone protecting freedom and that's beyond the pale. If you have something to say about crooked cops, start a thread and I'll be glad to have a discussion about it, but for the time being, I respectfully suggest a bit of introspection about your response to this particular topic. It's one thing to understand that there are extreme circumstances in which violence may be necessary, but entirely another to think that the rational response to having philosophical differences about issues like freedom of religion and a woman's right to choose is the murder of innocent people. That has exactly nothing to do with revolution and everything to do with terror. And let me make one thing crystal clear: if there's a revolution in the United States and on one side is people who blow up mosques and Planned Parenthood clinics because they're either too stupid or too brainwashed to understand that freedom of privacy and religion are fundamental Constitutional rights, expect me to be on the opposing side. |
03-19-2011, 07:51 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I believe your reading comprehension is much better than that. I defended nothing. I attacked the accusation that all violence or intended violence is 'right wing'.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
03-19-2011, 11:40 AM | #9 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The intended violence I specifically referenced in the OP is clearly right-wing. Anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-Muslim, and pro-nationalism are undeniably conservative American right wing ideologies. You know that.
You're a libertarian, so while you may not like abortion, you're probably okay with the government minding it's own business on that topic. You also probably have no problem with the government getting out of the marriage business, which means private lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender marriages are coo with youl. You are a strong proponent of the Constitution, so you're certainly cool with Muslims going about their lives worshiping Allah and reading the Qur'an. You're a nationalist, of course, but I don't think you're an American (read: white, Christian American) exceptionalist like the attempted terrorist in the OP. In short, you should be on my side in this. Donny Eugene Mower has clearly thrown in his lot with the neoconservative authoritarians. He doesn't understand or accept religious freedom, he does not understand or accept a woman's or lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender's right to privacy. If you want to regale me with tales of recent right-wingers who were justified in their acts of violence or attempted violence, I'd be glad to discuss the merits of those situations, but this thread is about Donny Eugene Mower, who is just the latest in a long string of authoritarian neoconservative bigoted terrorists and attempted terrorists. |
03-19-2011, 11:41 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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any extremist scares me but the right wing has always terrified me most.
some lefts can be idiotic but overall the violence level seems to be much, much more extreme than the left. even groups like the Weathermen (as far as I know) never hurt anyone. The ultimate un-American stance is to push your ideals on others. If you can't have tolerance for other people you need to GTFO. people came here so they could start a new unbiased life. Anybody who thinks a Muslim is a terrorist by default they fail at life and are simply ignorant motherfuckers. the media rarely brings hate groups to attention because they are threatened with people like Murdoch and it doesn't sell as well as evil Muslims. sorry this post is kind of all over the place. busy and distracted. |
03-19-2011, 09:18 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Tilted
Location: Iron Mountain
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I would say that there is a point to pointing out the knee jerk reaction that violence in these situations is "right wing". However certain elements of the right or right based groups have sanctioned such action however thinly veiled.
Having said that, they often leave behind or shout their allegiance at the top of their lungs. It doesn't help that all of the violence is against things the right are against and the left are for. Let's just say you argue that on any basis, there is the fact that there is no shortage of right wing people saying they will do exactly that if they either dont get their way, the election doesnt go their way, etc. All of the people who want to kill abortion doctors or bomb them are admittedly right wing. So... Does it mean they are? No. Does it give us a reasonable level of plausibility that it likely is them? I think so, furthermore I feel reasonably safe assuming so. Just my nickel |
03-20-2011, 10:44 AM | #12 (permalink) |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Personally, I'm more scared of common criminals with no organized agenda rather than the extremists amongst Muslims, cops, or right-wingers.
And since the topic's already been noted with the usual false dichotomy attached, I'll make my own note: there's nothing inherently un-libertarian about pro-life/anti-choice/anti-abortion political stances. Nothing. To insist that there is, is to hold your hands over your eyes and ignore the most important part of the debate.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
03-20-2011, 10:56 AM | #13 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Is this because libertarians believe in the right of the fetus to exist? Do libertarians consider the fetus an individual?
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
03-20-2011, 10:36 PM | #15 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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You're suggesting a rather large coincidence. You're saying the pattern of domestic terrorism and attempted domestic terrorism recently is just coincidentally right-wing? Yes, a few have been apolitical or have been so skewed that they can't be linked to a political ideology, but I've not seen any Al Gore supporters or Obama voters trying to blow anything up or shoot anyone for clearly political reasons. Other than that nut that shot up the Discovery Channel, I can't think of an example in my lifetime (dob 1983).
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03-20-2011, 11:36 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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03-21-2011, 12:03 AM | #17 (permalink) | ||
Tilted
Location: Iron Mountain
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---------- Post added at 02:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 AM ---------- Oh, I dont know about white supremacists, but Christians definitely overwhelmingly vote republican. This is always one of the things I find ridiculous about conservatives. All this claim to less government and letting you live and thats the first party to tell you how to live and allow governing, legislation and laws based on morals rather than ethics. Add to that the ridiculous idea of people who in one breath invoke jesus and in the next invoke a party and support its ideals that do the exact opposite of what he taught. there are exceptions sure, but if we're talking what the obvious majority you can pretty much count on? Yeah thats well known. Last edited by urville; 03-21-2011 at 12:06 AM.. |
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03-21-2011, 12:43 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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Not Christians, I was talking about Christian Identity. The difference between the two is like the difference between Glenn Beck and the terrorists listed in that article. |
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03-21-2011, 01:31 AM | #19 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I think the problem is we have people on the radio and "news" programs that sell a theme of if you can't win with your views violently take back the country. An attitude and all but directly saying: "Let us take people's apathy for government spin it around OUR ideals and sell OUR beliefs in a way that makes the listeners angry at those we want them to be angry at. If someone takes it to an extreme it helps us. It may stir up some controversy but our ratings will go over the top as people will want to hear first hand how bad we are."
That saddest part, in my eyes, is that these radicals will use Jesus' name in most cases as some warped excuse for blatant planned out murder of innocents. And the irony is that these people talk about losing rights while at the same time respecting no one else's legal rights.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
03-21-2011, 07:50 AM | #21 (permalink) | ||
Tilted
Location: Iron Mountain
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My uncle says the same crap without bombing people, lol. "Oh, we let the stupid people live who should have never made it" I tell him thats called progress, besides you dont believe in evolution. Then he makes me leave. Think about that. What McVeigh was saying is essentially calling them RINOs while considering himself a true conservative. So, thats right wing. it may not all agree, but its right wing.... Man, give me a dollar for evey conservative who complains about affirmative action, and behind closed doors says far worse about gays, women, blacks and I would be well off, but you give me the same for every liberal who has, and I'd might owe a few dollars. Quote:
Last edited by urville; 03-21-2011 at 07:58 AM.. |
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03-23-2011, 08:20 PM | #22 (permalink) | ||||
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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Yes. Key word being extremist. Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist terrorist, not every right winger is a violent, racist white supremacist.
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03-23-2011, 09:11 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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And you think white supremacists vote Demeocrat, apparently. Do you think they put their check next to Barack Obama to be the president of the United States? You think they vote for affirmative action? Honestly, I don't know what you're thinking. |
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03-23-2011, 09:22 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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That makes two of us. |
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03-23-2011, 10:01 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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I can't imagine why the guys who resort to planting explosive devices would think checking a box on a slip of paper in the local high school gymnasium was worth their time. |
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03-23-2011, 11:03 PM | #27 (permalink) | |||
Tilted
Location: Iron Mountain
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Last edited by urville; 03-23-2011 at 11:15 PM.. |
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03-23-2011, 11:30 PM | #28 (permalink) | ||
Crazy
Location: Yonder
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03-23-2011, 11:57 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Tilted
Location: Iron Mountain
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Right is closer to fascism than progressivism/left is. to answer the OP questions btw: I've never been a conservative fan and this trend doesnt help, but I do think its high time they began being forced by their own hands to own their real and true agendas/actions/ideals. I feel a far more real and present threat of right wing violence. If I could move right now... Education and social/economic change for the youth. Big time. Because cleverly in the conservative parties unity is everything, you comply or your ousted. Ultimately no matter what is said, your either on board or not in the club lest the bloggers get you. |
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