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Old 07-25-2011, 09:53 AM   #121 (permalink)
 
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there is a debate to be had about this--what the meaning of the deficit is, what the causes, what the ways forward.

it'd be much easier were obama to get a spine implant and do some basic moves---like stand down on the lunatic (conservative-inspired) "war on terror" and put the outlandish expenditures lavished on its various institutional cancers on the table, and ignore the cretin tea party attempts to draw arbitrary brackets around the whole question of taxes in order in order to divert the debate in a direction that won't make grover norquist mad.

but this "debt ceiling" canard is lunacy. and it's not a debate.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:55 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Well, Ron Paul may be right. But he just as easily could be completely wrong. That's the thing about trying to predict what's going to happen a long ways off.

Either way, a default now could be a pretty bug fucking deal. And it isn't as if debt is really a concern of the tea party folk. They have had the opportunity to agree to a couple of plans which would have reduced the debt by trillions. They refused because they don't want to pay more taxes. They would rather the US be a deadbeat than pay a single dollar more in taxes.

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:00 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Yeah, I thought it a bit weak to consider defaulting the bold disaster-averting decision.

The decision should be to uphold your commitments and agreements and then look at the useless spending that does little but make (some) Americans feel more comfortable about state security.

Does anyone want to explain to me why it makes sense to allocate over 50% of spending towards the Pentagon and Iraq/Afghanistan?

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Old 07-25-2011, 11:59 AM   #124 (permalink)
 
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danny schechter in al jazzera on the farce being performed by the far right:

Kamikaze tactics used in US debt battle - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

no problemo.

the dollar is at an all-time low against the swiss franc because of this nonsense:

US debt impasse spooks markets - FT.com

there's no crisis. the ultra-rightwing sociopaths KNOW.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:04 PM   #125 (permalink)
 
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The Chart That Should Accompany All Discussions of the Debt Ceiling - James Fallows - Politics - The Atlantic

here's a nice infographic.

the right's record is one of the main reasons the tea party exists: to provide an illusion of break with themselves and con the gullible into thinking that this right is not the right of the bush period. but it is. it is the same old shit.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Maybe Obama is kind of like a stepping stone back towards the fiscal conservatism of Bill Clinton.
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:04 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Ya, default now or keep putting it off until tomorrow when it will be catastrophic.

The US is so far from a default (from an inability to pay, not a political game by the fringe nuts) it is not even funny.
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:43 PM   #128 (permalink)
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i found this on an australian website on how the debt ceiling crisis will affect australia. i found this to be really interesting. it feels like im playing monopoly with fake money again...when we used to run out of money we would add zeros to the monopoly money or get some choc bars are put a value to them.

Quote:
10) The US should mint a $1 trillion coin
This is an idea that is bouncing around some of the blogs. The basic idea is right: The US Treasury does not actually need to borrow any money at all to pay its bills.

Why not? Because Treasury can unilaterally create money out of thin air.

So, the idea to get around the debt ceiling is for the Treasury to mint a one-ounce, $US1 trillion palladium coin and deposit it in the Treasury's bank, the Fed.

(Under the law, the monetary value of any coin has no relation to its metallic value.)

The Fed would credit $US1 trillion to the Treasury, which could use it to pay the USA's creditors.

It is a brilliant and creative idea in theory, but in practice it would be almost as devastating to the full faith and credit of the United States as a default would be.

If this gimmick were used only once in an emergency, that would be one thing. But once the Government got the idea that this sort of alchemy is an option, it would use it all the time.

Inflation - perhaps hyperinflation - would result from overuse of the alchemy/seigniorage option. Do not go there.



Read more: Crazy or scary? Ten things you need to know about why the US debt ceiling matters | News.com.au
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:10 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Maybe Obama is kind of like a stepping stone back towards the fiscal conservatism of Bill Clinton.
HOW?

assuming your premise that he was a fiscal conservative, obama has done nothing even close in regards to balancing a budget or reducing the deficit.

---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:46 PM ----------

obama 'the decider bush' wants to do things on his own

Quote:
“The idea of doing things on my own is very tempting, I promise you, not just on immigration reform. But that’s not how our system works. That’s not how our democracy functions,” Obama told the National Council of La Raza.
maybe he can just decide to raise the debt limit or change budgets like he decided to bomb libya. budgets, finances, and wars are mostly the congress's job (as outlined in section 8 of the constitution) not the president's who is supposed to execute their decisions.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:13 PM   #130 (permalink)
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HOW?

assuming your premise that he was a fiscal conservative, obama has done nothing even close in regards to balancing a budget or reducing the deficit.
A few points, at least:
  1. No new wars (future course in Libya notwithstanding)
  2. Fundamentally against the Bush tax cuts, at least for high income taxpayers
  3. Much of new spending is in response to disaster, rather than creating it
  4. Compared to Bush's ideas on deficit reduction, Obama's ideas make more sense


---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

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the obama 'the decider bush' wants to do things on his own
History will tell if he ever does. (I don't think it's likely at this point.)
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:21 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
A few points, at least:
  1. No new wars (future course in Libya notwithstanding)
  2. Fundamentally against the Bush tax cuts, at least for high income taxpayers
  3. Much of new spending is in response to disaster, rather than creating it
  4. Compared to Bush's ideas on deficit reduction, Obama's ideas make more sense


---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

History will tell if he ever does. (I don't think it's likely at this point.)
he may be fundamentally against these ideas in rhetoric, but again his actions don't represent these ideas in the least. he is an empty suit.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:24 PM   #132 (permalink)
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he may be fundamentally against these ideas in rhetoric, but again his actions don't represent these ideas in the least. he is an empty suit.
The problem with Obama is that there are too many Republicans.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:27 PM   #133 (permalink)
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The problem with Obama is that there are too many Republicans.
no, the problem with obama is that when there weren't too many republicans he did NOTHING to address our current financial problems, which were apparent towards the end of the bush administration.

His suggestions fall on deaf ears now.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:49 PM   #134 (permalink)
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no, the problem with obama is that when there weren't too many republicans he did NOTHING to address our current financial problems, which were apparent towards the end of the bush administration.

His suggestions fall on deaf ears now.
Nothing? Are you saying he ignored the financial problems or did he at least acknowledge them before doing nothing?

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Old 07-25-2011, 09:14 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Obama said tonight the American People find all this BS offensive. and he is right.

I thought his speech was adult and even respectful of Speaker JB, but then when JB came out with his address, I found him snarky from the get go. I mean he may as well have come out and said "fuck you" fuck you America and fuck you Obama.

Obama seemed to have a framework that, as he said shared the grief (which is still an insane concept considering the wealth distribution in this country) and dig us out, and JB really just seemed to be saying...ahhh sorry, the rich don't want to contribute even after they huge economic crash they created, so again, fuck you all, we'd prefer to keep our money...

I don't know what to think but that's how it came off to me.

this is the worst shit storm overall I can remember seeing a President have to deal with. the wars, the overall global unrest, massive oil spills, storms, earthquakes and he's still holding it all together. add to that he got bin laden, the giant McGuffin of the 911 saga.

so to me the repugs still look like the guys that destroyed our economy, perpetrated horrendous pointless wars and now want to drive our economy off a cliff, with the rest of the global economy chained to it.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:18 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Nothing? Are you saying he ignored the financial problems or did he at least acknowledge them before doing nothing?

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acknowledging them isn't really enough, any politician can fill that roll. his actions when he had the will of both houses and the american people was less than mediocre.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:23 AM   #137 (permalink)
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acknowledging them isn't really enough, any politician can fill that roll. his actions when he had the will of both houses and the american people was less than mediocre.
Were you around then? Were you paying attention? Just saying. Having majorities in both houses doesn't really mean much when you need 60 people to agree with you in the senate just to reach a vote.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:32 AM   #138 (permalink)
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acknowledging them isn't really enough, any politician can fill that roll. his actions when he had the will of both houses and the american people was less than mediocre.
Is there anything in here you want to address specifically?

Politifact.com - The Obameter: Campaign promises that are about the economy

Politifact.com - The Obameter: Campaign promises that are about taxes
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:38 AM   #139 (permalink)
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The problem with Obama is that there are too many Republicans.
That is it.

Obama pretty much saved Wall St with the QE1/QE2. Wall St and baby boomers 401k's are doing a lot better now than they were in 2008. Housing prices here and in a lot of the country have stabilized since 2008 (caused by deregulation and speculation).

Obama also put all of the budget on the books instead of using shifty accounting to hide the numbers...

Obama is doing a good job. He would be doing better if there were more Democrats\Greens.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:01 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:07 AM   #141 (permalink)
 
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i read somewhere a pithy statement of something i've been saying for a while now: we cannot expect a crisis engendered by neo-liberalism to be solved using neo-liberal tools.

and we're watching that happen. the problem goes beyond the fact that not only are there too many republicans and, worse, that the republicans now find themselves squeezed between the sociopaths in the tea party and the evil grover norquist. the problem is that to maintain a centrist discourse is to stay within the cognitive and policy boxes particular to neo-liberal thinking. this thinking is **the** cause of the current fiasco. and from that viewpoint there is no way out. the right isn't even focused on presenting an coherent pathway forward---all they're about is damaging obama. it is a scortched earth policy---and were the corporate press in the united states not entirely and abjectly complicit in maintaining the idiotic lingua franca of neo-liberalism themselves (having committed to it early on in the game, shifting away could undermine their already quite precarious positions by raising questions about the supposedly neutral language of reporting) and so trapped in a position of taking the right far more seriously than they should be taken, the republicans could never get away with it.

la pensée unique it's called. intellectual monocropping. it's mutant chickens are coming home to roost.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:18 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Yes, roachboy, I agree. The problem certainly extends beyond the Republicans themselves. I'm constantly amazed at the political environment in the U.S. both inside and outside the House. A big part of that has to do with the majority of my media consumption originating outside of the U.S. if not outside of North America.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:23 AM   #143 (permalink)
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I can't wait to hear Ace's spin on how Obama's speech was weak and lacking leadership while Boehner's was the epitome of political guile and gumption
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:31 AM   #144 (permalink)
 
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the new head of the imf joins the chorus of people around the world telling the united states to get its shit together:

IMF's Christine Lagarde warns Europe and US over debt crises | Business | guardian.co.uk

and the repercussions of this absurd game of chicken are at this point being taken mostly by the dollar:


Quote:
But action on the foreign exchanges perhaps suggests the dollar is starting to feel the weight of investors’ chagrin at Washington’s inability to conclude the tortuous budget negotiations as the August 2 deadline approaches.

The greenback is down 0.7 per cent on a trade-weighted basis to 73.62 and is struggling against most big crosses, losing 0.8 per cent to $1.4495 versus the euro and at SFr0.8025 is threatening to close below SFr0.80 for the first time.
Dollar takes brunt of Washington debt deal battle - FT.com
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:01 AM   #145 (permalink)
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The Tea Party would have just loved for Obama to simply ask to raise the debt ceiling, no strings attached.

Obama is both the cause of and the impediment to remedying the financial crisis.

Winning is everything, compromise means losing.

The Democrats The Gang of Six Obama is wrong, the Republicans Tea Party is right.

Did I miss anything, ace?
Yes.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:09 AM   #146 (permalink)
 
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"The United States could be facing another jobless recovery. Again, that's why we've advised against fiscal consolidation that is unduly hasty – even as we stress the importance of getting a fiscal consolidation plan agreed soon. We've also recommended active labour market policies to stem the rise in structural unemployment, and measures to ease adjustment in the housing market (for example, mortgage relief)."
from christine lagarde's statement.
the degenerate state of american political discourse has fallen behind even that of the imf.
well played.

but what this highlights is the obvious: the right does not want to see the state investing in programs that might ease the very considerable structural unemployment and begin to address the consequences of 40 years of neo-liberal enabled restructuring of the american economy not because it isn't needed, but rather because it would make a party with absolutely nothing to say, no programs to offer, no solutions---and no viable candidates---unable to continue to pretend to itself that if it just damages obama long enough that somehow people will take leave of their sense and vote for less-than-zero because it's not obama.

so the right would rather impose unnecessary austerity measures for no fucking reason in the middle of a crisis than address the crisis for reasons of petty partisan politics.

and the ultra-right imagines they will benefit by creating more difficulties for more people---including themselves.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:50 AM   #147 (permalink)
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ace, dear, that a sociopath can rationalize being a sociopath doesn't make the sociopath any less a sociopath.
First, I get the underlying point and won't pretend that I don't the way others do around here. So, I make it perfectly clear that I know what I am and I will proudly and honestly state it. I am an extremist. I have a big ego. I never compromise on issues of importance. I have strongly held biases. Etc. Etc. Etc. We have been through my ( and people like me) "issues" several times.

Your (and people like you) problem is that you are shocked that people like me exist, you wish we would go away and be quiet. However, you in fact , have to deal with and interact with us. But you are at a loss, you don't know what to do. So, I say that I will not support any tax increases and you spend 8 months trying to shame me, embarrass me, ridicule me, threaten me, etc., etc., into changing my view. It does not work. You waste time and get frustrated. You never stop and ask the question what would actually work. You never try to understand the differences. You will forever be a victim of your ignorance in these dealings.


Quote:
no-one in their right mind points to the relative stability of bond yields right now to demonstrate anything beyond the fact that investors in the main expect that this sociopathic game of chicken the right is playing will ultimately resolve.
That is what I have been saying from the beginning.

Quote:
i assume that what we'll see, should this stupid, unnecessary game come undone, is a concerted offensive from the right media apparatus to reframe it as somehow obama's fault. but no-one is fooled. no-one at all. approval ratings for the republicans are hovering at about 20% now. this happens and the right is fucked.
Obama is folding like a lawn chair. Like I said Obama presented a false crisis with a false deadline, I doubt there will be anything that his fault. In fact Republicans are pretty much getting what they wanted from the very beginning.

Quote:
there's a side of me that is looking forward to laughing as the tea party nutcases drive straight into a wall, saying all the way into it that there is no wall.
The ultimate game of chicken. Do you think I ever lost that game as a child even when the threat was real? There are some real risks in dealing with "crazy" people - what I have learned is to never challenge a person who is "crazier" than I am. Perhaps, I am not as "crazy" as I may appear to be, given the fact I really only take calculated risks. If I know you will fold first, I will play that game all day long.


Quote:
o, and trust me, ace, there was nothing complimentary in my saying that the tea party is ace on a national scale. nothing whatsoever.
The compliment is being associated with winning. A small number of Tea Party freshmen controlled the Washington agenda and will win. what does that say about the others?

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Quote:
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I can't wait to hear Ace's spin on how Obama's speech was weak and lacking leadership while Boehner's was the epitome of political guile and gumption
What about your spin on it? Didn't he spend half the speech blaming others, and then saying we should have the "balanced" approach that is not even being currently considered! Then he lied about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling. The US will not default on debt. The US will make social security payments. To suggest otherwise is a lie. Why is this behavior from a President acceptable to you? Why would you want another 4 years of this crap?

---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

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Ace I didn't know Obama could introduce bills in the house and force the house to vote on it. Especially when it is controlled by the GOP. The fact is this bill has to originate in the house.
Bush got his legislation introduced and passed. Other Presidents have been able to work with members of Congress to set a legislative agenda, why can't Obama?
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:56 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Yes.
Will you help me out?
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:07 AM   #149 (permalink)
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The problem with Obama is that there are too many Republicans.
Or, it is his view of Republicans.

I can honestly say that the way to get me to sit down and seriously talk is not by attacking my integrity, intellect, and concern for others. Then if the other party sets up some kind of false crisis and if I don't think there is any credibility I become like a stone wall of granite.

The most surprising things is when you tell them what the issue is, yet the persist in doing all the wrong things and then wonder why.

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

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Will you help me out?
It starts with our different views on "compromise".

All I can do is give examples, take them for what they are worth I know that you normally miss the bigger points in my examples, but I will try.

My wife wanted a cat, I did not. There can be no compromise. We either get a cat or we don't. We got a cat. I did not compromise. My wife asked me about my concerns. I explained them. She responded to my concerns and we got a cat.

I wanted a motorcycle, my wife did not want me to get one. There can be no compromise. We either get one or we don't. We got the motorcycle. She did not compromise. I asked her about her concerns regarding the motorcycle. she explained them. I responded to her concerns and I got the motorcycle.

Oh, but you say compromise could have been her getting the cat and you getting the motorcycle. Wrong. With that, the underlying concerns never get addressed - and happiness turns to resentment or other problems.

So, I don't understand your view of compromise - you don't understand mine. Basically I do not believe in compromise, I don't think it works, it makes things worse over time. I believe in addressing the real underlying issues.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:26 AM   #150 (permalink)
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It starts with our different views on "compromise".

All I can do is give examples, take them for what they are worth I know that you normally miss the bigger points in my examples, but I will try.

My wife wanted a cat, I did not. There can be no compromise. We either get a cat or we don't. We got a cat. I did not compromise. My wife asked me about my concerns. I explained them. She responded to my concerns and we got a cat.

I wanted a motorcycle, my wife did not want me to get one. There can be no compromise. We either get one or we don't. We got the motorcycle. She did not compromise. I asked her about her concerns regarding the motorcycle. she explained them. I responded to her concerns and I got the motorcycle.

Oh, but you say compromise could have been her getting the cat and you getting the motorcycle. Wrong. With that, the underlying concerns never get addressed - and happiness turns to resentment or other problems.

So, I don't understand your view of compromise - you don't understand mine. Basically I do not believe in compromise, I don't think it works, it makes things worse over time. I believe in addressing the real underlying issues.
To make your example more relevant, I will make some adjustments:

• Your wife wants another cat; you think you already have too many (one). Your wife explains that adding a second cat will help reinforce the first one in terms of the dynamics of daily living. She also explains that although there will be an added cost, they will be somewhat shared due to there already being a system of owning a cat in place. She also explains that adding a second cat will make it easier to leave them alone, allowing you and your wife to go out more often and on more extended journeys. In addition, she explains to you how the second cat will add even more joy to your lives. You, on the other hand, state in no uncertain terms that you will absolutely not agree to a second cat and never will, as you are mildly allergic to them, you don't like cat hair and the smell of litterboxes, and you're more of a dog person.

Possible outcomes:
  1. Your wife compromises and gets a toy stuffed cat and one of those virtual pet apps through the Apple app store, in addition to some catnip and a new toy to improve the playtime with her existing cat.
  2. You compromise and suggest that she can get the cat as long as you don't have to care for it; you resent the cat for as long as it lives and your wife resents your coldness towards it.
  3. No compromise: your wife gets a cat anyway and you argue about it for weeks if not months.
  4. No compromise: nothing is done.

• You want to make repairs and improvements to your motorcycle. Your wife doesn't think it's a good idea, considering that you're still paying it off through financing. You explain to her that the repairs will make the motorcycle safer and the improvements will better the experience not only for you but for her as well whenever she decides to ride it. She's not convinced. She states that there isn't room in the budget for it and that she has no real need for it anyway because she has a bicycle that works just fine that she can repair and improve by herself. She goes on to say that the motorcycle should probably be sold off anyway, as she was never really a fan of it in the first place.

Possible outcomes:
  1. You compromise by making do with superficial repairs and minimal performance adjustments, spending within your previously agreed discretionary amount; furthermore, you secretly hope that next month she doesn't bring up the subject of selling the motorcycle again.
  2. Your wife compromises and suggests that you to pay for the repairs and improvements by getting a second job; you resent having to work more and you both resent spending less time together.
  3. No compromise: you pay for the repairs and improvements anyway and you argue about it for weeks if not months.
  4. No compromise: nothing is done.
tl;dr: your examples are oversimplistic binary choices that don't reflect the real-world topics we're discussing. My examples are a bit closer.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:14 PM   #151 (permalink)
 
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ace, dear, for what it's worth perhaps the most fundamental divergence i have with you is that i don't consider conceptual rigidity a virtue--quite the contrary is the case.

you approach politics as a religious believer. i think that's absurd.

you cannot argue effectively for the validity of your assumptions--they're articles of faith.

you have some tedious and bizarre notion of competition. i don't care about it.

you seem to imagine that if you are able to keep repeating the same things no matter what kind of arguments are leveled against what you're saying, that somehow you "win"--but that's only in a charlie sheen sense. you know, in a self-obsessed kinda way.

your socio-economic philosophy is demonstrably a failure if you look at it's implementations in the actually existing world and the consequences of those implementations---your position is that reality is just a variable, and what matters is your faith. i see that as childish. you see it as something else.

in the actually existing world, your socio-economic philosophy has enabled the dismantling of the american productive infrastructure. you live in a fantasy world of heroic entrepreneurs.

in the actually existing world, the modern state performs fundamental stabilizing functions that allow the capitalism that you worship in a genuinely abject manner to operate as a system. these functions came about gradually over the course of this history of late 19-th/20th century capitalism. you seem to know nothing about the history of capitalism and, worse, your ideology doesn't require that you know anything about it.

but if your ideology does not require that you know anything about history--and by extension know anything about the present---then what fucking good is it?

the main things your neo-liberal nonsense have accomplished are:

an unprecedented concentration of wealth
a financial crisis
a massive debt burden incurred largely through two unnecessary, stupid wars and through unnecessary, ill-advised tax cuts for the wealthy.
the pulverization of the lives of ordinary working people.
a radical intensification of class conflict.
a massive expansion of the prison system
an unprecedented percentage of the population in jail
a dominant discourse predicated on denial, on the substitution of simple-minded fantasies for complex and often problematic realities.

your socio-economic philosophy implemented has been an unmitigated disaster.

no wonder you have a reality-optional approach to things.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:18 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aceventura3 View Post

What about your spin on it? Didn't he spend half the speech blaming others, and then saying we should have the "balanced" approach that is not even being currently considered! Then he lied about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling. The US will not default on debt. The US will make social security payments. To suggest otherwise is a lie. Why is this behavior from a President acceptable to you? Why would you want another 4 years of this crap?
Then why is it widely reported that the August 2 date is so important? Why is it being reported that our credit rating may be downgraded? Why is assigning blame to those who are at fault a bad thing for a leader to do?

Quote:
Bush got his legislation introduced and passed. Other Presidents have been able to work with members of Congress to set a legislative agenda, why can't Obama?
Because the Democrats under Bush didn't act like babies and stamp around shouting "NO!" about every single bill introduced by the opposition
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:27 PM   #153 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
To make your example more relevant, I will make some adjustments:
.
.
.
tl;dr: your examples are oversimplistic binary choices that don't reflect the real-world topics we're discussing. My examples are a bit closer.
I repeat I don't understand your view and you don't understand mine. I saw nothing in what you added that clarified anything. I am not being judgmental, am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I just don't get it. For example if my wife wants another cat, my buy-in is contingent on my issues being addressed to my satisfaction. And I don't suggest my wife or anyone is obligated to satisfy my issues or concerns, however getting my buy-in requires what I stated. If my wife got a second cat without my "real" (that term again) buy in, it would be pretense to believe those issues go away just because she acted without my buy-in.

In context of the debt issues. I can easily support closing loop-holes in the tax code. All that is needed is an honest discussion regarding my concerns and issues and "we" could get a deal done that includes tax reform. There is a reason this did not happen, and you don't understand the reason. You just think I (again not literally "you" and "I" but people who hold our views and share our personality type) am being unreasonable.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:28 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Ace, you don't know the broader consequences of not raising the debt ceiling. Your certainty that inaction by congress won't be problematic just makes it seem like you get your economic advice from Michelle Bachmann. She's the last person I'd use as a source of reliable prediction.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:39 PM   #155 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aceventura3 View Post
I repeat I don't understand your view and you don't understand mine. I saw nothing in what you added that clarified anything. I am not being judgmental, am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I just don't get it.
I think it would be more accurate to say that 1) I understand your view but that I can't seem to see how it applies to the real world, and 2) you understand my view but disagree with it.

If you need me to clarify my view, let me know. I'll try to keep it simple. Maybe I'll use an example with cats.

Quote:
For example if my wife wants another cat, my buy-in is contingent on my issues being addressed to my satisfaction. And I don't suggest my wife or anyone is obligated to satisfy my issues or concerns, however getting my buy-in requires what I stated. If my wife got a second cat without my "real" (that term again) buy in, it would be pretense to believe those issues go away just because she acted without my buy-in.
But you made it sound as though your buy-in was of absolutely no consequence. Do you care to elaborate?

Quote:
In contest of the debt issues. I can easily support closing loop-holes in the tax code. All that is needed is an honest discussion regarding my concerns and issues and "we" could get a deal done that includes tax reform. There is a reason this did not happen, and you don't understand the reason. You just think I (again not literally "you" and "I" but people who hold our views and share our personality type) am being unreasonable.
Why didn't it happen? Because today's Republicans are more tax adverse than Reagan?
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:50 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
ace, dear, for what it's worth perhaps the most fundamental divergence i have with you is that i don't consider conceptual rigidity a virtue--quite the contrary is the case.
So explain to me how the above is not an illustration of rigidity???? Come on, let's get real. You call me ridged because I disagree with you and I am vocal about it, even to the point of being a smart-ass. Yes, I know when I am being a smart-ass. Your flaw is you don't know how to handle me, and it frustrates the hell out of you. On the other-hand, I have taken a step back and tried to understand who you are - hence you don't frustrate me, you don't make me angry, I don't dislike you - I simple have learned to know what to expect.

Quote:
you approach politics as a religious believer. i think that's absurd.
I have told you when I have what you call "religious" held type views. I have told you when my mind is closed on an issue. I have told you when I am biased. Gee. So, you think it absurd, so what. It is what it is. You either manage it or you don't. Red pill or green (Matrix reference) the choice is yours.

Quote:
you cannot argue effectively for the validity of your assumptions--they're articles of faith.
Some are and some are not.

Quote:
you have some tedious and bizarre notion of competition. i don't care about it.
Occasionally I am lazy and when I use pronouns, "you", "I", etc., it is in a generic sense. That is almost never the case with your (literal) posts. If you want to change me, you can't. I don't care what you think about me. Hell, ignore me - I don't care about that either. Do you realize this is an anonymous bulletin board?

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton View Post
Ace, you don't know the broader consequences of not raising the debt ceiling. Your certainty that inaction by congress won't be problematic just makes it seem like you get your economic advice from Michelle Bachmann. She's the last person I'd use as a source of reliable prediction.
Right. I clearly stated what I thought about Obama's false 8/2 deadline and why. That as a given, to me it is obvious that the response to me would be to present information to change my view. Hence my example with my wife and her cat - we sat down and honestly discussed my issues and concerns, see had an answer for each, not a perfect answer but good enough to move me from a "no" to "yes". The irony is that I think I am pretty easy to live with because I am honest and direct and therefore I have a low tolerance for subterfuge and playing the dishonesty games that eventually lead to dis-trust. I am that way with my wife, in business, with my son, with everyone. I am often disappointed because it is what I expect of others.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:09 PM   #157 (permalink)
 
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again, ace, you dodge the main point. your ideology has been a failure. it's been implemented. so your positions are irrelevant. so it is of no real consequence what your relation to the assumptions particular to that framework are.

i'm not interested in changing you. i am sometimes interested in demolishing the stupid arguments you make because, at the time i write posts, it amuses me to do it. and it would be nice to demolish your arguments so thoroughly that you cannot continue. that would make me laugh.

but like i've said before, arguing with you is like playing chess with a six year old. there's no challenge and it's not interesting.

what might be interesting--for once--is a justification for your continued adherence to an ideology that's produced such fiasco where it's been implemented. and don't waste time getting all purist about it---"o it hasn't **really** been implemented"---the usual line of trotskyites who are as rigid about their orthodoxy as you are about yours.

as for the debt ceiling debacle--engineered by people who think as you do because they imagine there's some political benefit that can accrue to them if they can make people forget that the crisis is fake, really, and that such problems as there are and will come of it are the result of an entirely cynical political calculation---it's astonishing to me that given your seeming years of repeating exactly the same things--alternating from time to time with yet another stupid, homespun analogy notable only for the trigonometry that's required to connect them with whatever you imagine your point to be---is that you have the audacity to make pronouncements about compromise.

i know i know--blah blah blah leadership because really all you heroic individuals are submissives and just want a presidential daddy to take you over his knee and smack your ass until you say yes yes daddy yes.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:12 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
I think it would be more accurate to say that 1) I understand your view but that I can't seem to see how it applies to the real world, and 2) you understand my view but disagree with it.
You say #1 as if I don't live in the "real world", which is somewhat insulting. On #2, and I know the problem with the lack of precision in the definition of certain words, like "understanding" - but a person may understand how a bumble bee can fly, but not really understand it. I understand your words, I understand your intent but I do not understand why you think the way you do by making what is simple more complicated than it needs to be. From my point of view you never break an issue down to its most simple common denominator.

Quote:
If you need me to clarify my view, let me know. I'll try to keep it simple. Maybe I'll use an example with cats.
Perhaps you mean this to be condescending, I am not sure. Or, perhaps this means that you can not see the broader points in my examples, I am not sure. I normally with you assume the latter.

Quote:
But you made it sound as though your buy-in was of absolutely no consequence. Do you care to elaborate?
My wife has choice. My buy-in has consequence, but in her decision making process those consequence may or may not be important enough to sway her decision. It is my hope that she has concerns for my buy-in, but because she is a free independent person she makes her own decisions. The same is true for me with her. So, to say I am inflexible is not accurate. Again, I don't compromise on us having a cat - I support "us" having a cat. The cat is 100% part of our household. After going through our give and take, I am 100% on-board with the cat in our house. But, to add to you confusion, because I doubt you understand, I am not a cat person - I will never be a cat person.

Quote:
Why didn't it happen? Because today's Republicans are more tax adverse than Reagan?
If the left took time to understand the issue - the difference is in the level of trust. I simply do not believe the people in Washington today are serious about spending cuts. I believe that if they raise taxes, spending with still go up. That is my primary concern on the tax question in this debate - it boils down to the simple issue of trust - or as Roach would say it is a "religious" type issue - 100% emotion based. I tell you that, I have told you that, yet it is ignored. If I knew your issue with me was trust, the first think I do is address that. Real world stuff. Pretty simple stuff. It is how stuff gets done. Put issues on the table and work through them! Obama failed.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:22 PM   #159 (permalink)
 
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bullshit, ace. pure, unadulterated tea party bullshit.

look at the figures. you are bothered by deficits, start with repealing the bush tax cuts. stand down on the republican-friendly "war on terror"---which obama buys into---along with the whole of the national-security state apparatus.

The Chart That Should Accompany All Discussions of the Debt Ceiling - James Fallows - Politics - The Atlantic

you aren't serious at all. this is nothing but cheap political posturing.


addendum.

here's an explanation for the tea party:

http://i.imgur.com/NoI5H.jpg

the american educational system is a catastrophe.
see in particular the stats about teacher recruitment.

it has everything to do with the low priority placed on education in the states.

it's way more important to manufacture systems that kill people in great number than it is to address class conflict as it is deployed through the american educational system.

priorities here are all fucked up. seriously.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:31 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
again, ace, you dodge the main point. your ideology has been a failure. it's been implemented. so your positions are irrelevant. so it is of no real consequence what your relation to the assumptions particular to that framework are.
My ideology has not been implemented. What we currently have is a hybrid system that I think is destine to fail. If you have been reading what I have written you would know that. Your pattern with me is to respond to what you think I am writing rather that responding to what is actually written. That is one reason I rarely interact with you on anything other than the most superficial level.

Quote:
but like i've said before, arguing with you is like playing chess with a six year old. there's no challenge and it's not interesting.
I was a pretty good chess player when I played - I doubt you would have a chance if we ever played. You are far too emotional and reactionary to be any good.

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
bullshit, ace. pure, unadulterated tea party bullshit.

look at the figures. you are bothered by deficits, start with repealing the bush tax cuts. stand down on the republican-friendly "war on terror"---which obama buys into---along with the whole of the national-security state apparatus.

The Chart That Should Accompany All Discussions of the Debt Ceiling - James Fallows - Politics - The Atlantic

you aren't serious at all. this is nothing but cheap political posturing.
See what I mean. What are you responding too? Certainly not that I don't trust the people in Washington. Did you notice I used the word "Washington". I did not use the words "liberal", "Democrats", "Neo-liberal", "socialist", "Keynesian" - I use the word "Washington" and I did it for a reason. Currently, Republicans are trying to respond to the trust issue, Democrats are not. Read what I write or stop wasting your time!
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