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Old 08-26-2003, 11:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What about religion, more importantly christianity scares you liberals out there???

Straight forward question, I already know most of you will say "I'm not scared by it, but blah blah blah...". If you aren't scared by it then why do you harbor so much animosity towards the judeo-christian beliefs, and why do you so ferverntly oppose its influence here in America?
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Old 08-27-2003, 12:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The inquisition, witch hunts, the KKK, Timothy McVeigh, bombings of abortion clinics, and that Christianity will direct foreign policy and be used as a justification to limit personal freedoms.

There are reasons to fear any religion, though.
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Old 08-27-2003, 12:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Although I'm not afraid of religion, I do become nervous at overt attempts to merge it with our political structure.

Your belief that it ought to permeate our political structures, our civil life, and that it is necessary to reinstate our nation's greatness is similar to the theories and justifications for Islamic fundamentalist movements and political-relgious organizations like the Taliban.
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Old 08-27-2003, 03:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Faith, by definition, is belief without proof. This applies to all religions.

What deity would grant it's creations rational thought then insist they not use that ability to gain entry into paradise?

D'oh!

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Old 08-27-2003, 04:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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XenuHubbard, smooth, 2wolves hit the nail on the head! I am by no means a liberal when it comes to politics except I guess, when you talk Religion. Gotta Keep'em Separated.
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Old 08-27-2003, 05:31 AM   #6 (permalink)
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What scares me is that people believe 'they have god on their side'.
I've been raised a christian - quit when I was 14 - and I've experienced first-hand the manipulative, guilt-tripping tricks they use to get me back to the flock.
All of it, ofcourse, in my best interest..

Religion would be a totally different matter if the members would accept that everyone has the freedom to choose his or her own religion, or none at all.

I don't mind some guy putting up a plaque with the ten commandments on it- the ones that are not about god are pretty sensible. What I dislike is that these people refuse to accept that a human being can have principles without kneeling to some santa-like figure in the sky.
What I dislike is these people refusing the possibility that god may not exist.
In many discussions I've had to deal with people who were convinced that I did 'know' that god exists, but that I refused to accept him.

It's the shear stubburn irrationality and self-righteousness of religious people that scares me.

I totally agree with JBX that religion and state should be seperated. Politics are (imo) supposed to be objective, religion is subjective by definition.
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Old 08-27-2003, 06:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
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also, the state is supposed to give the same treatment to all it's citizens. but endorsing/promoting one religion/its idols, state is not being fair.

if the govt wants to be fair, it should give equal oppurtunity to all the religions in the nation, which would be next to impossible.
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Old 08-27-2003, 06:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm a liberal catholic and I echo

Quote:
Your belief that it ought to permeate our political structures, our civil life, and that it is necessary to reinstate our nation's greatness is similar to the theories and justifications for Islamic fundamentalist movements and political-relgious organizations like the Taliban.
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Old 08-27-2003, 06:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I disagree with a lot of what the religous right wants to do. So, in conclusion, fuck them. Personal opinion nothing more.
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Old 08-27-2003, 06:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
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People like Jerry Falwell don't scare me, the fact that people believe and listen to people like Jerry Falwell scares me.

"We have sinned against Almighty God, at the highest level of our government, we've stuck our finger in your eye," said Robertson. "The Supreme Court has insulted you over and over again, Lord. They've taken your Bible away from the schools. They've forbidden little children to pray. They've taken the knowledge of God as best they can, and organizations have come into court to take the knowledge of God out of the public square of America." "
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Old 08-27-2003, 07:12 AM   #11 (permalink)
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^Agreed.

I suppose you could call me a liberal that leans towards the middle. I'm not scared of religion. I believe in God, but I don't go to church.

I just like my religion to touch my government on my dinner plate. The two are better seperate. Our country was founded with many religion-based beliefs, but I think times change.
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Old 08-27-2003, 07:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: What about religion, more importantly christianity scares you liberals out there?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Straight forward question,
It's not a straightforward question. It's a weasel question. You've created the presupposition that liberals are scared by religion. This is patently false: a good many liberals are religious, members of any number of faiths, and the balance of the remainder don't really care one way or another what religion someone is. You offer no proof whatsoever for your contention that liberals are "scared." Please do so before you craft another such loaded question. Secondly, you said "more importantly christianity" - Christianity is not a "more important" religion. It's a religion like any other, with the same merits and the same shortcomings.

Quote:
I already know most of you will say "I'm not scared by it, but blah blah blah...".
Then why did you ask the question, other than perhaps trying to score some sort of point by painting liberals with a Coulter-esque brush, indicating that we're all godless heathens who need to be converted by force?

Quote:
If you aren't scared by it then why do you harbor so much animosity towards the judeo-christian beliefs, and why do you so ferverntly oppose its influence here in America?
For a host of very simple reasons, most of which the posters prior to me have already elucidated. To recap: government should not promote one religion over the other, regardless of the beliefs of the members of that government. America's all about equality, remember? Christianity in particular (though certainly not the only one) is notorious for being anti-intellectual, promoting dogma that runs counter to empirical and scientific evidence. I've got a thick file of evidence should you require it. Christianity, finally, is one of the worst examples of the "church muscular" - the church, and by extension its members, can do no wrong if they invoke God in their cause. This belief led to the Crusades, among other historical atrocities. This and many other things make Christianity an unfit model for a national government.

Bottom line, your question was utterly ridiculous in its premise, insulting and misleading in its assertions, and disappointing in its utter transparency. Perhaps the question should have been "Why are you, Mojo_PeiPei, afraid of a secular world, more importantly, a world where secular humanism defines the scope and breadth of law?" It would have been just as legitimate a question. So... care to answer?
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Very well said ctembreull.

I don't fear Christians. My Grandmother is a Christian and she's a truly wonderful human being. The only people liberals look at with suspicion are the convert-or-get-off-our-planet type extremists. So why do liberals in America most often discuss their suspicion of fundamentalist Christians specifically?

Well, it's natural to pay the most attention to your society's most powerful and influential religion. After all, if your society ever goes the repressive theocracy route; that, realistically, will be the religion that does it.

So if I were a liberal Malaysian or liberal Indonesian - I'd be most wary of the extreme Muslim clerics in my society. If I were a liberal Indian, I'd be wary of the extremist Hindus. They would represent the primary threat to the religious freedom of my community.

Am I, as an liberal in Australia, going to run around warning people about the rastafarian or zoroastrian takeover of the Government; or am I going to keep a watchful eye on Peter Jensen and Fred Nile?
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:07 AM   #14 (permalink)
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No need to get all angry, people.

In some ways I feel it's a legitimate question (with some good responses btw). It certainly has the effect of bringing some good points to the foreground for discussion. It also is giving me personally a look into how some people think about religion in general.
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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In response:

1) I don't advocate some "fundamentalist" chrisitian government. Its all of your assumptions, that because I'm christian, I some how think everyone should be christian too is the exact reason I asked this question.

2) I couldn't agree more that government and religion don't mix. I don't like religion as an institution, it is ran by humans, who are by nature flawed.

Quote:
This belief led to the Crusades, among other historical atrocities. This and many other things make Christianity an unfit model for a national government.
You sir are misinformed. Before the Muslims took over the holylands they were in Christian control. So they attacked first, the christians were only attempting to regain what was once in their control.

Quote:
Your belief that it ought to permeate our political structures, our civil life, and that it is necessary to reinstate our nation's greatness is similar to the theories and justifications for Islamic fundamentalist movements and political-relgious organizations like the Taliban
1) I already answered about the political
2) whats wrong with people having religion in their lives that instills good principles like "Love thy Neighbor". Or Put Christianity aside, all religion have good stuff to say, they instill morals, this country could sure use some.
3) As far as reinstating christianity in this country although I would like it, I'm not here to force anything. As a christian I realize people have free will and its not my job to tell them how to live. But if this country forgets where it came from and who she was (what everyone is definently doing) then we are doomed to fall.

BTW while all you people knock the catholics church for her past sins, if it weren't for the church 1) we for sure would not be at the point we are now due to the Dark ages and 2) We all would probably be Spanish speaking muslims who are still stuck in the 12th century AD.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macheath
If I were a liberal Indian, I'd be wary of the extremist Hindus. They would represent the primary threat to the religious freedom of my community.
I am. I'm very afraid for the future of the country. Many hindu's think that india is a hindu nation and that it's a privilage for muslim's to live in the country. The party in power has many coalitions to these right wing religiously motivated parties.

Quote:
Originally posted by ctembreull
Perhaps the question should have been "Why are you, Mojo_PeiPei, afraid of a secular world, more importantly, a world where secular humanism defines the scope and breadth of law?"
I'd like to see that question answered too.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:13 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Actually, there's plenty of need to get angry.

1) The question was loaded. The words chosen were meant to exclude and encourage arguement rather than include and encourage debate.

2) There is a frightening trend in the U.S. brought about by an extremely vocal minority, that all things not Christian are immoral and evil, and thus should be illegal. Conversely, all things Christian are moral and good, and thus should be folded into the foundations of Civic and governmental practice.

3) I've studied and read about almost every religion that could be considered 'Major' currently practiced by humans on this planet. At the very core of their moral teachings they are all the same. The rituals and specifics of belief and practice differ from sect to sect (hell even from region to region within a sect). South American Catholicism is VERY different from European Catholicism. If people who supposedly worship the same God and profess a belief in the same faith can't get along with one another, how can imposing one religion above all others possibly work?

People don't fear Chrsitianity or Islam or Shinto, they fear what the people who want to make them the only option will do to them once they achieve their goals.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:15 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
In response:

1) I don't advocate some "fundamentalist" chrisitian government. Its all of your assumptions, that because I'm christian, I some how think everyone should be christian too is the exact reason I asked this question.

2) I couldn't agree more that government and religion don't mix. I don't like religion as an institution, it is ran by humans, who are by nature flawed.



You sir are misinformed. Before the Muslims took over the holylands they were in Christian control. So they attacked first, the christians were only attempting to regain what was once in their control.



1) I already answered about the political
2) whats wrong with people having religion in their lives that instills good principles like "Love thy Neighbor". Or Put Christianity aside, all religion have good stuff to say, they instill morals, this country could sure use some.
You don't need religion for morality.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Because God has played a big role in this country thus far and we have done fine with him. But hey lets go to Communist Russia, that was "secular", what a fine example of a secular government. Maybe Nazi Germany where the Reich and Furor were the only form of religion," In Germany, they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't communist. Then they came for the jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a jew. They they came for the catholics. I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up." Hitler removed religion, as did stalin... Whats the body count those two ass clowns are responsible for 100 million+?
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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are you afraid that the US infastructure will collapse and chaos will ensure without god?
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:17 AM   #21 (permalink)
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No but we will go down a path that we can never get back from.

Actually yes, I am afraid of the moral choas that will ensue.. Ahh I can see it now... Partial Birth abortion, ahh fuck it if there is something wrong with the baby at birth lets decapitate it!!! And you know what, Hitler was onto a good idea with those Eugenics programs, lets create a perfect human, who cares if the "prototypes" are deformed, they are inconvienent and expendable. Hey I know something that could help the economy lets harvest the organs of aforementioned aborted children. Yes I can see it now.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:18 AM   #22 (permalink)
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The basis of this country's rule of law is secular philosophy, not religious ideology. However, I don't expect a politician to ignore his or her beliefs, nor do I expect him or her to stick strictly to a humanist approach.

Most of us aren't "afraid of influence." I'm apprehensive of the black-and-white Christian distinctions of good and evil, and religious justification of political action. I don't want a president who kills people because God told him to.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:19 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
No but we will go down a path that we can never get back from.
can you describle where we will be headed?
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Excuse me, but when did the muslims hold Russia? The Baltic States? Finland?

Crusades went there too.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:21 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
You sir are misinformed. Before the Muslims took over the holylands they were in Christian control. So they attacked first, the christians were only attempting to regain what was once in their control.

BTW while all you people knock the catholics church for her past sins, if it weren't for the church 1) we for sure would not be at the point we are now due to the Dark ages and 2) We all would probably be Spanish speaking muslims who are still stuck in the 12th century AD. [/B]
Two additional responses: Before the Christians, it was the Pagan Romans who controlled the Holy Land. Before the Romans it was The Babylonians. Before the Babylonians it was the Hebrews. Before the Hebrews there were various semitic tribes, who are now known collectively as "Palestinians." So perhaps we should roll the clock all the way back through human history and give the holy land back to the people who were truly there first.

And as a recovering Cathoholic, I'll knock it as much as I want, thank you very much. The Catholic Church of the Middle Ages accused people Like Galileo Galilei and Copernicus of Heresy for trying to think differently. It certainly didn't encourage experimentation and free thinking. Europe in generarl only moved out of the Dark Ages because people were tired of the Papal Bullshit that was going on and they had been enlightened by learning and ideas received from Muslims while in the Holy Land. Marco Polo would never have gone to China if the Muslims hadn't told him it was there in the first place. The best thing the Oppressive Catholicism of the middle ages did was make people despise its practices and look for a better way of doing things. Even my history teachers in a Catholic High School admitted that.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:34 AM   #26 (permalink)
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The moral choas that will ensue.. Ahh I can see it now... Partial Birth abortion, ahh fuck it if there is something wrong with the baby at birth lets decapitate it!!! And you know what, Hitler was onto a good idea with those Eugenics programs, lets create a perfect human, who cares if the "prototypes" are deformed, they are inconvienent and expendable. Hey I know something that could help the economy lets harvest the organs of aforementioned aborted children. Yes I can see it now.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:36 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The moral choas that will ensue.. Ahh I can see it now... Partial Birth abortion, ahh fuck it if there is something wrong with the baby at birth lets decapitate it!!! And you know what, Hitler was onto a good idea with those Eugenics programs, lets create a perfect human, who cares if the "prototypes" are deformed, they are inconvienent and expendable. Hey I know something that could help the economy lets harvest the organs of aforementioned aborted children. Yes I can see it now.
Get some glasses, then. You're raving.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:36 AM   #28 (permalink)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by erion
[B]Two additional responses: Before the Christians, it was the Pagan Romans who controlled the Holy Land. Before the Romans it was The Babylonians. Before the Babylonians it was the Hebrews. Before the Hebrews there were various semitic tribes, who are now known collectively as "Palestinians." So perhaps we should roll the clock all the way back through human history and give the holy land back to the people who were truly there first.

All true and all valid, but I am a firm believer in "To the victor go all the spoils". Christians lost and tried to get it back, can't blame for trying.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Morality <> Religion.

It is possible to have a moral compass, to know the difference between right and wrong, and have no faith in any God whatsoever. Just because people don't want to have a specific flavor of religion shoved down their throats does not make them an amoral monster.

The lack of a clear statement of Christian Values in our modern society is not what causes the problems so many people choose to equate with that. The problem with modern society, in my opinion, lies more with a lack of personal accountability (which is encouraged by blind faith -- the Lord proclaimeth, et cetera) than with a lack of organized religion in the civic arena.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I bet a lot of people stopped fearing mixing religion and politics after Mojo's post...

Hey people, war over religion is now okay!
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:42 AM   #31 (permalink)
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@ XenuHubbard --

Which Post?
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:45 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The moral choas that will ensue.. Ahh I can see it now... Partial Birth abortion, ahh fuck it if there is something wrong with the baby at birth lets decapitate it!!! And you know what, Hitler was onto a good idea with those Eugenics programs, lets create a perfect human, who cares if the "prototypes" are deformed, they are inconvienent and expendable. Hey I know something that could help the economy lets harvest the organs of aforementioned aborted children. Yes I can see it now.
moral chaos just for you cuz i dont think i'll have one.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Quote:
All true and all valid, but I am a firm believer in "To the victor go all the spoils". Christians lost and tried to get it back, can't blame for trying.
So...... might makes right. Interesting, if not original, philosophy. That absolves all the wonderful, joyful, things that the Europeans and United Stater's did to my ancestors. Blowback is a mofo.

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Old 08-27-2003, 10:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
All true and all valid, but I am a firm believer in "To the victor go all the spoils". Christians lost and tried to get it back, can't blame for trying.
According to that logic, when the Muslims conquered it, they should have received the "spoils." My point re: the Crusades, though, was larger than strictly territorial and geopolitical. It was this period that was characterized by the selling of indulgences (one of those things that pissed off Martin Luther), where a knight could go to his priest and basically say "Ok, padre, I'm gonna rape, pillage, and burn (in that order) my way across eastern Europe and the Middle East. What's that gonna cost me?" And the priest would name a price, the knight would pay it, and take off to do all those horrid things because God had "told" him it was OK. I was referring to the concept of the church muscular - that anything, no matter how horrid, is okay if you can find someone to tell you that God is on your side. For a more recent reference, try the bombing of abortion clinics. Or, for the Europeans among us, try either Northern Ireland or the Catholic Church's tacit support of Hitler's Holocaust.

It is these things that have no place in America. Will you now attempt to argue that they're not among a host of valid reasons to attempt to keep the extremes of religion away from civil government?
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:54 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
What about religion, more importantly christianity scares you liberals out there??
This is just a troll; It makes enough assumptions and generalizations to make my blood boil, which I assume is the point. But I will address the question.

The only thing that "scares" me are people that have this sort of attitude about their religion. Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are no different, except the former thrives in an area ravaged by land disputes and more conducive to violence. I have no doubt whatsoever that Christian fundamentalists would do the same sort of atrocious acts in the name of God, given the opportunity: bomb abortion clinics, and perform wholesale slaughter on "Liberals" who do not see things the same way.

Thankfully there are enough men and women of reason in this country who realize that their personal beliefs are just that -- personal, and just beliefs.

edit: fixed grave typo.
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:03 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Because God has played a big role in this country thus far and we have done fine with him.
God's role and place are in the homes, hearts, and minds of American citizens - not in the letter or intent of laws.

Quote:
But hey lets go to Communist Russia, that was "secular", what a fine example of a secular government.
Russia was a secular government, yep. But it wasn't an example of a secular humanist government. There's a difference; do you know what it is? Remember also that the intent of the Soviet Union was perfect equality, economic and social, for all its people. Pretty noble, that. Who's to say that a religious government, seeking equally noble goals, wouldn't wind up mirroring the USSR in most of the ways that count? Don't tell me it's because Christians are moral. Prove to me that a strictly spiritual government would be any better than a strictly secular one.

Quote:
Maybe Nazi Germany where the Reich and Furor were the only form of religion
First off, it's spelled "F&uuml;hrer". And Hitler, just for your information, was a Christian. The Catholic Church quietly supported him during the years when he was massacring Jews. Also for your information, both sides of the Northern Ireland conflict are Christians. Don't go telling me that Christianity automatically implies a moral government.
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:15 AM   #37 (permalink)
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The church most definently did not support the massacring of the jews, that is the biggest crock of bullshit ever pushed by Liberals to discredit the church. The only reason the church ever supported Hitler was in the early years and that was because he fervently opposed communism.
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA, Earth
(I apologize for the angry tone, but historical ignorance is not an attractive thing, particularly in this matter.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The church most definently did not support the massacring of the jews
Really? Did you know that Hitler was a baptized Catholic, yet was never excommunicated? Did you know that Mein Kampf was never placed on the Church's list of banned books? Did you know that Pope Pius XII never commented as a matter of dogma upon the Holocaust? Did you know that the Catholic church has several centuries of anti-Semitic publications and rhetoric for which it has yet to apologize? Did you know that the Catholic Church has yet to apologize or seek forgiveness for its failure to speak or act on behalf of the Jews during the Holocaust? Here.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
http://www.chn-net.com/news/edital.h...20Confessional

Go educate yourself. Now, what were you saying again?
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ctembreull is offline  
Old 08-27-2003, 12:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
Kiss of Death
 
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
How about you go educate yourself Pope Pius worked to save over 800,000 jews secretly. Several powerful and respected Jewish leaders have come to Pius' defense, the Head Rabbi of Rome converted to Christianity after the war out of respect for the pope. What about Golda Meir Israeli Prime Minister who lived during the time of the holocaust, she said ," When Fearful martydom came to our people in the decade of Nazi Terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims." What about Moshe Sharat the second Prime Minister of Israel ," I told Pope Pius XII that my first duty was to thank him and, through him, the Catholic Church on behlaf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countires to rescue Jews. WE ARE DEEPLY THANKFUL TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."

None of this bullshit came out until a radical SOCIALIST German author tried to place the church and jews against each other, his name was Rolf Hochhuth and he was a member of HItler's youth group. Also notice how all the attacks against Pius are from non-Jewish sources??? Thats interesting.

Also not to long ago PJP II asked for forgiveness for the whole of the church for its centuries of anti-semitism and various sins throughout the ages.

Also Hitler may have been born or baptized a catholic, that doesn't make him one. Espcially considering how much he was into the occult, the man was definently not catholic.

Thank you, please drive through.
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Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 08-27-2003 at 12:09 PM..
Mojo_PeiPei is offline  
Old 08-27-2003, 12:29 PM   #40 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Just outside the D.C. belt
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
How about you go educate yourself Pope Pius worked to save over 800,000 jews secretly.
Your phrasing is.... curious.

1.. How about getting back 'on topic?'
2. Anyone surpised that this tread is heading straight to hell?

It's very, very, very difficult for a believer to examine the not so glowing aspects of their faith in a fair and balanced fashion but it can be kept civil. Let's try to not take personal offense at every turn shall we?

2Wolves
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