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Old 09-10-2003, 09:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Dean has the right take on the Israel Palestine issue.

Rivals criticise dean for Mideast comments

Howard Dean came under fire yesterday from two rivals for the Democratic nomination for saying the United States should not "take sides" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Five days after Dean told supporters in New Mexico that "it's not our place to take sides" in the conflict, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (Conn.) accused him of advocating a "major break" from the United States' long-standing policy of explicitly siding with Israel in the Middle East.

Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.) said: "It is either because he lacks the foreign policy experience or simply because he is wrong that governor Dean has proposed a radical shift in United States policy towards the Middle East. If the president were to make a remark such as this it would throw an already volatile region into even more turmoil."

....

In an interview, Dean sought to clarify his statement but did not back down from his belief that the United State cannot negotiate peace unless it is seen as a neutral party in the region. "Israel has always been a longtime ally with a special relationship with the United States, but if we are going to bargain by being in the middle of the negotiations then we are going to have to take an evenhanded role," he said.


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He is absolutely right and finally there is a candidate who is advocating we pull back from our way too close relationship with the Theocracy of Israel and start tackling this issue in a fair way to both sides rather then give in to everything Israel wants.

This is sound foreign policy which is our presidents primary job. he deserves the nomination above everyone else in the field. Until we start giving the Palestinians the respect and consideration they deserve rather than the constant billshitting, there will never be peace over there.
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Old 09-10-2003, 10:03 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Wow. Well, that wraps it up for me. Dean has my vote.
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Old 09-10-2003, 10:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree with him 100%.

We shouldnt close our eyes and back Isreal regarless of their actions.

In order for negotions to work, the negotiator must be neutral.
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Old 09-10-2003, 12:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I dont know enough about him personally and I dont consider myself a Democrat to say I would vote for him; but I find his courage to be amoung the first to finally approach this issue with that mindset; impressive.

I wonder if he would continue to do so if elected.
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Old 09-10-2003, 01:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah, Dean seems to have a good idea about Israel/Palestine, for that peace to work, we would need to back off and say "Both sides need to make concessions and we'll help you compromise." Wow, I'm agreeing with Howard Dean, WTF IS WRONG WITH ME!?
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I didn't see the debate and largely agree with Sixate in his comment on another thread declaring these debates waste of time circle jerks.

However...strangely I find myself concurring with Dean on this issue. Neutrality. It's the only way to be NEUTRAL on an issue as a mediator. Amazing really.

I think I'll go scrub all my sensory input points with steel wool now.

-bear
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I've got a question: The media keeps saying that Dean is a "phenom" in the sense that the Democrats aren't sure what to do with him, seeing as he's going over so well. I don't get it. They're acting like it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone like Dean to get elected... but if he's so popular... wouldn't that mean he COUDL get elected!? Someone help me out here. I really don't know much about him (I know he's apparently pretty damn left-wing), but if he's so popular, why are they acting like that's a problem?
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It's something the scared republicans threw out to try and destroy Dean before he can do the same to Bush.
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
It's something the scared republicans threw out to try and destroy Dean before he can do the same to Bush.
Bullshit.

It is because primaries are for the party loyal. The winner of the party primary was elected by the party die hards. On either side of the spectrum.

Historically it is the undecided or those not loyal to a party that win General Elections. The swing voters if you will.

Swing voters are not likely to vote for an extreme idealogue from either side of center.
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Old 09-10-2003, 03:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Right, Dennis Kuchinich has realistically no chance since he is so far left that the moderates wouldn't go for him.

Good thing Dean is a moderate. He isn't an anti-war nut. Just anti irrational war. He favored the first gulf war and Afghanistan.
He has been given top marks by the libertarian CATO institute for his fiscal responsibility and he is so far appearing to be foreign policy intelligent as opposed to the man who couldn't name most of the most powerful leaders in the world when quizzed about it in 1999.
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I've been lukewarm on Dean, but this pushes him ahead of Kerry in my mind.
Also, as Superbelt points out, Dean is not on the far-left. If you believe this and aren't on the far-right, you need to stop believing everything you hear in the media and start thinking for yourself. The reason he got stuck with that label is because he was against the war from the start. But if that's all that makes someone far-left, that would make almost half of all Americans far-left.
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It's a mark of how irrational things have become that we're all highly excited by the highly novel idea of a foreign policy that ISN'T inspired by the Book of Revalations
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
...Good thing Dean is a moderate....
In your dreams.

Be careful about your 'answering questions correctly' assertion...especially when talking about Dean. This is the presidential hopeful who DIDN'T even know the manpower of our current Military?

Oh and don't confuse me with someone who thinks Bush is the Cat's meow either.

Probably the best thing that could happen to Bush would be Dean's nomination.

I really hope I eat those words someday

-bear
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Old 09-10-2003, 06:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Be careful about your 'answering questions correctly' assertion...especially when talking about Dean. This is the presidential hopeful who DIDN'T even know the manpower of our current Military?
sorry, but there's a huge difference between not knowing the current manpower of the military and not knowing who the leader of major foreign countries are. How many people know what the current manpower is? Its not exactly posted all over the place. I don't think President Bush knows. He couldn't even name the leader of Pakistan right after he took power.
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Old 09-10-2003, 06:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I would say that U.S.'s foriegn policy on Israel/Palestine is pretty neutral. Besides the fact that Israel has been an Ally for over 50 years, espcially during the Cold War we should favor them. Netruality in this situation won't help it along any. The whole situation won't get fixed until both sides truly want peace and want to coexist. You think any person alive will be able to curb thousands of years of hatred, and "religious" nationalism by staying neutral... keep dreaming.
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Quote:
This is the presidential hopeful who DIDN'T even know the manpower of our current Military?
Bullshit.

Dean's estimated range of one to two million active military was correct. The range he cited wasn't a guess at all.

Two days after Dean's appearance on MTP, three active military leaders directly involved in the Iraq War were asked by media reporters the number of troops of active duty in Iraq. They each gave a different number, ranging from as low as 120,000, to as many as 300,000. Now, if these military leaders weren't able to give accurate counts, why chastise Dean for giving a similar range?

The correct answer is 1.4 million.

Last edited by Superbelt; 09-10-2003 at 07:04 PM..
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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they weren't our ally the whole of the cold war...we bought isreal off the soviets, and have been paying trhough the nose since. but i don't see why we ought to be unsupportive of a democracy in that region. I'm not a huge likud fan, and i think they need to be a little more realistic in their demands of the PA, but i think Dean goes to far. pandering to anti-isreali sentiment (some of which goes so far IMO as to be anti-semitic) is not a good direction for the democratic party....
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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It doesn't seem to be anti-israeli or anti-semitic to me whatsoever. What he is proposing is to stop our "Israel, Right or wrong" mindset we have had for so long.

Trying to be an impartial mediator between two factions is not being anti- to one of them
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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clarification...i don't believe dean is antisemtic...but some of the pro-palestine activity in the american left is. playing to that crowd is very dangerous, IMO.
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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How have we been paying through the nose? Sure we give them the 3 billion in military aid, the rest is in loans, loans which they have never defaulted on. Palestine is in the predictiment they are in because back in 48' they started a fight they couldn't finish.
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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single largest recipient of forgien aid since whenever. even when plague and famine hit other parts of the globe. their economy is highly dependant on our aid at this point. i'm not saying it wasn't worth it. but it has been a hell of a price tag.

Moreover, several forgien leaders had strong roles in starting both 48, and 67...i wouldn't blame an amporheous palestine. do the people deserve to suffer for mistake made by despots and kings? they need a state-there were arabs living in eretz isreal at time of the creation of the state, and 67 was as much isreals war as the arabs.....
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Old 09-10-2003, 08:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Personally I blame the Arab Nations as a whole, they have really fucked over the Palestinians. Does anyone think that going neutral at this point would help the situation??? I mean with the UN resolutions and the EU/UN/Nato/Russian whatever working with the road map (regardless of its flaws...), do you think it matters?
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Old 09-10-2003, 11:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macheath
It's a mark of how irrational things have become that we're all highly excited by the highly novel idea of a foreign policy that ISN'T inspired by the Book of Revalations



chavos I dont fully understand what you mean (sorry Im a little slow at times) could you reword what your stating? Thanks.

Mojo I also wanted to know what you mean in stating the current situation there is mainly the surrounding arabs fault. Thanks.

Actually chavos Mojo scratch that; that travels outside what this particular thread is about, and Im sure there will be another Israel/Palestine thread popping up in the future.
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Last edited by Sun Tzu; 09-10-2003 at 11:45 PM..
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Old 09-11-2003, 05:22 AM   #24 (permalink)
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i applaud Dean for this, and ... shit, i'm 18 now. i can vote for him! and i will. but i have to say that he will never be elected now, having come out and said something like this.
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Old 09-11-2003, 06:52 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Personally I blame the Arab Nations as a whole, they have really fucked over the Palestinians. Does anyone think that going neutral at this point would help the situation??? I mean with the UN resolutions and the EU/UN/Nato/Russian whatever working with the road map (regardless of its flaws...), do you think it matters?
blame whoever you want, but we have a problem at our hands and blaming somebody else wont solve it.

palestians are very unlikely to cooperate with the "road map to peace", as bush calls, if US is only looking out for Isreal.
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Old 09-11-2003, 12:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
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So far this is the first thing Dean said that took courage, and I also happen to agree with. Its too bad he has no chance of winning.
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Old 09-11-2003, 01:44 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm collecting quotes from you where you say Dean has no chance of winning. I have quite a few now and look forward to throwing them all back at you come next November.
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Old 09-11-2003, 03:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I'm surprised that nobody has brought up a secondary issue associated with Dean's comments, the response from the other Democratic candidates. Granted, they are fighting for a position, and politics has never been nice, but...
Quote:
"If this is a well-thought-out position, it's a mistake, and a major break from a half a century of American foreign policy," he said in a statement.

"If it's not, it's very important for Howard Dean, as a candidate for president, to think before he talks."
A quote from Mr. Liebermen, who would obviously have concerns with Dean's statements even if he weren't running, but look at what he is saying, either Dean is wrong, or is wrong, there is no thought on the issue.

Or perhaps another front-runner
Quote:
Senator John F. Kerry, "It is either because he lacks the foreign policy experience or simply because he is wrong that governor Dean has proposed a radical shift in United States policy towards the Middle East. If the president were to make a remark such as this it would throw an already volatile region into even more turmoil."
Again, there is no thought or consideration about the statement at all, it is a reflex action

And a final quote from Nancy Pelosi, who I believe is the Minority Leader in the house?
Quote:
"It is unacceptable for the U.S. to be `evenhanded' on these fundamental issues," the letter said.
unacceptable, unacceptable to be even-handed? This is just surreal to me. Many people have said that the Jewish Lobby is the second strongest lobby in the country, and they were almost uniformly attacked as perpetuating the antisemitic stereotypes that have been around for centuries. But in light of these reactions to what by all accounts is a reasonable and seemingly obvious statement, doesn't the claim hold some merit??
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Old 09-11-2003, 04:00 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Basically the quotes by Lieberman, Pelosi, and Kerry are saying: "We can't be fair. We need to be biased on the side of Israel. Palestinians aren't worthy of even-handed treatment."

There will be a decided lack of criticism on this as time goes on. Dean is pretty much immune to anti-semitism being attributed to him seeing as how his wife is Jewish.

This will pass and the jewish lobby and everyone critical of him will either have to shut up or be exposed as discriminatory towards the Palestinians.
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Old 09-11-2003, 04:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
I'm collecting quotes from you where you say Dean has no chance of winning. I have quite a few now and look forward to throwing them all back at you come next November.
right back atcha!!!

PS I would expect no less!!!
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Old 09-11-2003, 04:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Basically the quotes by Lieberman, Pelosi, and Kerry are saying: "We can't be fair. We need to be biased on the side of Israel. Palestinians aren't worthy of even-handed treatment."

There will be a decided lack of criticism on this as time goes on. Dean is pretty much immune to anti-semitism being attributed to him seeing as how his wife is Jewish.

This will pass and the jewish lobby and everyone critical of him will either have to shut up or be exposed as discriminatory towards the Palestinians.
This, I can agree with. In America, the world Palastinian is synonomous with Terrorist. We all forget, that the Indians did raids on the US, and no one called them terrorists. Yes, there are bastards like Hamas, and Arafat, but I truly think that the average person in Palastine would just love to live without the fear of Isreal "claiming" more land.

Does the news ever speak of the fact that Israel has made over 80 new settlements in Palastinian land since 9 11? No, all we hear is how someone in Israel is blown up. Granted that is bad, but so is forcing people off their lands, and stealing the very houses their their grandparents built.
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Old 09-11-2003, 05:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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American's don't like Palestinians, you know why? Remember a year ago today the footage from Palestine after the attacks happened, you see people massing in the streets to cheer the attack against "the great satan" that is America. In fact I also remember hearing about Arafat shitting a brick when he saw this, he knew that the Palestinian people fucked up big time.
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Old 09-11-2003, 05:24 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Mojo,

I aint gonna argue that. As a NY who lost his best friend two years ago today, I was screaming for Bush to nuke the whole Mid east from orbit!

But now, you have to realise that if not for America, Israel would not have the power to terrorise and push Palastine around.

In the words of Ariel Sharon "We ( Israel) control America".

Where would Israel be withtout the loan gaurentees and six billion a year we give it? So most of the middle east sees Israel as an extention of the USA. Its amazing that this tiny strip of worthless land, with no natural resources, and history of aggression, and is basically another middle eastern theocracy, has such an influnce on the most powerful nation in the world's history.
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Old 09-11-2003, 05:26 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
American's don't like Palestinians, you know why? Remember a year ago today the footage from Palestine after the attacks happened, you see people massing in the streets to cheer the attack against "the great satan" that is America. In fact I also remember hearing about Arafat shitting a brick when he saw this, he knew that the Palestinian people fucked up big time.
Ok, trace back to why the palestinians hated the US.
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Old 09-11-2003, 06:55 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
American's don't like Palestinians, you know why? Remember a year ago today the footage from Palestine after the attacks happened, you see people massing in the streets to cheer the attack against "the great satan" that is America. In fact I also remember hearing about Arafat shitting a brick when he saw this, he knew that the Palestinian people fucked up big time.

This is quoted a whole lot in Palestine/Israel threads, but is it really true?

http://members.tripod.com/thinkagain...lebrating.html



I wish I could find the whole tape, anybody that can do so gets a gold star of enormous magnitudes.

and also, one should note that Isrealis were also celebrating, but not in the streets of Tel-Aviv, rather in the streets of America...
http://www.crimelynx.com/dozens.html

I think it should be expected for people from other nations not to take 9-11 nearly as seriously as Americans, but we should at least understand everything about it before using it to categorize an entire country.
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Old 09-11-2003, 07:40 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by inkriminator
This is quoted a whole lot in Palestine/Israel threads, but is it really true?

http://members.tripod.com/thinkagain...lebrating.html



I wish I could find the whole tape, anybody that can do so gets a gold star of enormous magnitudes.

and also, one should note that Isrealis were also celebrating, but not in the streets of Tel-Aviv, rather in the streets of America...
http://www.crimelynx.com/dozens.html

I think it should be expected for people from other nations not to take 9-11 nearly as seriously as Americans, but we should at least understand everything about it before using it to categorize an entire country.
It is true, I remember watching it myself on NBC.
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Old 09-11-2003, 08:40 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
American's don't like Palestinians, you know why? Remember a year ago today the footage from Palestine after the attacks happened, you see people massing in the streets to cheer the attack against "the great satan" that is America. In fact I also remember hearing about Arafat shitting a brick when he saw this, he knew that the Palestinian people fucked up big time.
Can you blame them? We have here three highly prominent Democrats (and we all know what the republican position is, allied with the Christian Coalition) who are basically saying we have been favoring Israel and it is unacceptable to do anything but support Israel no matter what.

I'd hate you too if you had a 50 year history of bias against me in favor of the people who oppressing me.
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Old 09-11-2003, 10:38 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Superbelt
Can you blame them? We have here three highly prominent Democrats (and we all know what the republican position is, allied with the Christian Coalition) who are basically saying we have been favoring Israel and it is unacceptable to do anything but support Israel no matter what.

I'd hate you too if you had a 50 year history of bias against me in favor of the people who oppressing me.
I can't blame them, I just don't give a fuck when Israel blows their shit up. The fact is they started a fight they couldn't finish, and now that they are backed against the wall they still have unreasonable demands and goals.
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:10 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
American's don't like Palestinians, you know why? Remember a year ago today the footage from Palestine after the attacks happened, you see people massing in the streets to cheer the attack against "the great satan" that is America. In fact I also remember hearing about Arafat shitting a brick when he saw this, he knew that the Palestinian people fucked up big time.

Hmm, what attack a year ago? I'm gonna go ahead and think that you mean the WTC attacks two years ago. The cheering and massing was 99% archive photography, the last percentage was of a woman cheering, they found her and she said that she was asked by a journalist to cheer and all of a sudden she was on TV all over the world.
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:40 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Regardless of the context, what did the American public see???
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