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Old 09-15-2003, 06:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How do I benifit from the US giving 9 billion to Israel?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...srael_usa_dc_5


All I get is hatred from the muslim world. I am not Jewish, nor religious. I dont care one wit for another theocracy in the Middle East. Israel has nothing to offer me, no resources, and because of our stance, the oil producing world, which like it or not, we need, hates us.

So again, what am I getting out of the Israel welfare package?
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:06 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Nothing really.

How is it that israel even qualifies for us foreign aid???

Actually, they receive the most foreign aid from the USA. I guess they need help building more settlements.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Perhaps the fact that they are one of our most important strategic allies. Alot of that aid is in loans, which I don't think they have ever failed to pay back.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The reason that we send them so much aid is that our government feels that it's necessary to preserve strong ties with the only democratic state in the region.

Without letting my personal views into it, that's the biggest political reason that we have to send them anything.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:34 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: How do I benifit from the US giving 9 billion to Israel?

Quote:
Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...srael_usa_dc_5


All I get is hatred from the muslim world. I am not Jewish, nor religious. I dont care one wit for another theocracy in the Middle East. Israel has nothing to offer me, no resources, and because of our stance, the oil producing world, which like it or not, we need, hates us.

So again, what am I getting out of the Israel welfare package?
Also I'd say probably one of the biggest reasons the radical muslim world hates is not so much our stance on Israel, but rather our presence of troops in Saudi Arabia, that was what brought OBL into the picture.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Perhaps the fact that they are one of our most important strategic allies. Alot of that aid is in loans, which I don't think they have ever failed to pay back.
Strategic allies against what?? Islamic countries taking over the world? Islamic countries invading europe?

Quote:
"The State of Isreal will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice, and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets
- Isreali constitution

something else i found by searching

Quote:
In a similar vein, religious and secular Jews fight over street closings that make it more difficult for those wishing to drive on the Jewish Sabbath to reach their destinations, but which promote a "Sabbath atmosphere" in neighborhoods in which the overwhelming number of residents are Sabbath observers. In commenting on these disputes, a retired Israeli judge insists that religion is purely a private matter that should be allowed no public expression.
Quote:
Meanwhile, religious courts in Israel have control over personal status issues, such as marriage and divorce, hence, women cannot initiate divorce proceedings. Many women have to live under the status of agunah (a woman who cannot remarry) for months or even years until the husband is pressured into giving a get (a Jewish divorce).
not true characteristics of a democracy.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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First off, the Saudi's asked us in Saudi Arabia.

Second, anyone who thinks Israel is a democracy needs to ask they they banned Arab political parties. Only Jewish political parties in Israel. That makes them a theocracy, not a democracy.


And so far, no one has told me what I am getting out of it.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
Strategic allies against what?? Islamic countries taking over the world? Islamic countries invading europe?
Well like Mr.Selfdestruct said they are the only friendly nation in the region. Plus if you remember the cold war the Entire Arab world was in the Soviet camp, Israel was with us.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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So what if they are the only friendly nation in the region? So what if they are the only democracy in the region? Does that mean we have to give them obscene amounts of money to build more obscene weapons?
I see only 2 valid reasons for giving foreign aid: for humanitarian reasons or to promote the security of our nation.

In the case of Israel, neither of these reasons apply. Instead, I suspect the reason has more to do with political pressure than anything else. And as a result, we are actually damaging the security of this nation.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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One of the main factors, alluded to in the last post, is the amazing strength of the Israeli lobby. I am not trying to "threadjack" but consider the back-lash to Dean saying we need to be 'even-handed' in the middle east. He was forced to back-track explain defend and equivocate simply for saying we should be fair. The israeli lobby is strong, very strong.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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It's a trade-off.

We have lots of money.
They have many eyes and ears in the Middle East. Not to mention a top-notch military presence.

IMO - it's money well spent.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm with him^^
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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again, why exactly do we need a middle east military presence? just like why do we need those bases in saudi arabia?

and no, we dont have lots of $. we're running in a deficit right now.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If we gave say, Sryia the cash we gave Isreal, would could have a military presence there, they would be our eyes and ears, and best, we wouldnt have the hatred of the Arab world.

So again, what is all this money to Israel doing for me?
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
The reason that we send them so much aid is that our government feels that it's necessary to preserve strong ties with the only democratic state in the region.

Without letting my personal views into it, that's the biggest political reason that we have to send them anything.
Israel is only marginally more democratic than Iran. Both have constitutional commitment to oversight by religious bodies.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Well like Mr.Selfdestruct said they are the only friendly nation in the region. Plus if you remember the cold war the Entire Arab world was in the Soviet camp, Israel was with us.
Egypt was in the camp of whoever gave them money at the time. Iran, while not strictly an Arab nation, is in the region, was with the US until that whole, "Backing a murderous dictator who kills his own people" thing backfired so spectacularly.

Iraq was an ally of the US once the US fell out of love with Iran. Saudi Arabia has nominally been a US ally for much of the cold war.

Lebanon had good relations with the West until Israel invaded it. Since the US backed Israel, Lebanese are no longer so keen on the US. Pity, it was a functioning democracy, too.

At the same time, of course, Israel was selling US nuclear secrets to Aparthied era South Africa, and nowadays passes on the US millitary hardware it gets preferred access to China.
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Old 09-15-2003, 10:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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What you get is a sustainable and strong ally in the most unstable portion of the globe. It is,also, the only democratic state in the region which grants us a certain affinity with them as two democratic states have ever warred against one another. Basically, what you get is a base of operations in a region that is the greatest source of American foreign fears, a strong ally in Middle East negotiations, a sustained democratic state in VERY nondemocratic region, & loyalty that comes with long term relations. The latter is especially important in a time when America is viewed as a vigilante who strikes at will when, and where, it pleases. Helping Israel lets the foreign community at large know that America remembers who its allies are and doesn't hop ship when things get rough.

Disclaimer: This is the official story on what a strong relationship with Israel gets the American public and only gets my partial endorsement. I don't think we should hang our good friends in Israel out to dry, but I do think their Palestinian issues have gotten way out of hand and their policies are simply wrong and need to be corrected. Conversely, we aren't going to get them to change their ways by disserting them now. Friends can change your opinion, but an enemy never will.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:30 AM   #18 (permalink)
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You get a veiled threat to counter Pan Arab nationalism and other radical Muslim movements.

You get a sop for the "moderate" Arab world - meaning the Israeli government allows its citzens to continue being blown up or otherwise murdered so that you you can prove that ypu're "evenhanded"
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Every time they launch an attack you get one less terrorist or homocide bomber in the world.
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:11 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
First off, the Saudi's asked us in Saudi Arabia.

Second, anyone who thinks Israel is a democracy needs to ask they they banned Arab political parties. Only Jewish political parties in Israel. That makes them a theocracy, not a democracy.

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

1) Many Jews are Arabs

But, if you're refering solely to Muslim/Christian Israelis from Arab descent...


2) 10% of Israeli paliament is Arab, in line with the general population.

3) There exists many Arab parties within Israel.

But, if you're refering to the one Arab party that was for a time banned last year because the leader met various times with Hamas and in Syria (a sworn enemy of the State) called for Arab nations to stand up against Israel, then you're wrong again. The party, Balad Party, was reinstated by the Israeli Supreme Court before the election.

How's that for a theocracy?
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:15 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
If we gave say, Sryia the cash we gave Isreal, would could have a military presence there, they would be our eyes and ears, and best, we wouldnt have the hatred of the Arab world.
That would be like paying the foxes to guard the henhouse.
My money says that Saddam, along with all his chemical and biological ordnance, is a protected guest of Syria. I also believe that most of the non-Iraqi fighters responsible for ambushing U.S. soldiers every day crossed into Iraq from Syria.

There's only one nation in the Middle East that shares our interests - and that is Israel.
_______________________________________________

Oh - and <b>The_Dude</b> - I meant "compared to Israel" we have lots of money. Perhaps I should have said, "We spend lots of money."
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:50 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Honestly, we just need to let Israel off of their leash so they can nuke the region into oblivion and establish a "United States of Israel." We would finally have peace in the middle east.
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by reconmike
Every time they launch an attack you get one less terrorist or homocide bomber in the world.
Actually, you usually end up with a few more. Which suits the present Israeli administration's agenda perfectly.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Fel owning on this one, hey fel you need to come back to shc kameha king is starting a load o religous foolishness again
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:11 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cynic
Fel owning on this one, hey fel you need to come back to shc kameha king is starting a load o religous foolishness again
<_<

>_>

Are you sure about that? I've seen every one of his points blown to pieces, and would hardly call that "ownage"..
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:25 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Alot of empty rhetoric has been given about democracy and friendship, but no one has given any benefits that are not dependent upon or completely dwarfed by the significant drawbacks resulting from our relationship with Israel.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by maximusveritas
Alot of empty rhetoric has been given about democracy and friendship, but no one has given any benefits that are not dependent upon or completely dwarfed by the significant drawbacks resulting from our relationship with Israel.
How about the first Gulf War?

If Israel & the US are not close friends, do you think that Israel would choose to stay on the sidelines after they receive almost daily bombings from another country? Can you name any other country in the world that acted (or would act) this way for a friend?

The close relationship between the US & Israel is the only thing that kept the coalition together and allowed the US to go after Saddam at all.
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:07 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
The reason that we send them so much aid is that our government feels that it's necessary to preserve strong ties with the only democratic state in the region.
Turkey, Egypt, Jordan?

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Old 09-16-2003, 03:03 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Turkey gets hooked up through being in NATO, Egypt has been getting equal amounts of aid since Sadat signed the peace accords back in the late 70's.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
Turkey, Egypt, Jordan?

This might clarify things:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/531/eg9.htm

Jordan:

"These were important developments, but Jordan is still a long way off from embracing true democratic reform. "
http://www.countercurrents.org/jordan-urbina080703.htm

Egypt:

"The country is now a presidential republic where despite democratic structures there is no fair chance for the opposition. "
http://www.electionworld.org/election/egypt.htm

"Political parties cannot operate legally in Egypt without a license from the Political Parties Committee of the Shura Council. Since its establishment in 1977, this government-controlled body has approved the licensing of only one new political party, in March of this year."
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena...ection-bck.htm


While things might be slowly moving towards democracy in Jordan & Egypt, to call them democracies right now isn't facing the facts. They both have a very long way to go.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:50 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by popo
How about the first Gulf War?

If Israel & the US are not close friends, do you think that Israel would choose to stay on the sidelines after they receive almost daily bombings from another country? Can you name any other country in the world that acted (or would act) this way for a friend?
Even if you concede that we would have gotten involved in the first Gulf War without our ties to Israel, I think you are off in thinking that Israel didn't retaliate just because of its friendship with the United States. Say we weren't friends with Israel at the time, you are saying they would have retaliated. This would have probably led to another Arab-Israeli War, which would have ended in Israel using WMD. According to quite a few people on this board, this would have been a desirable endpoint. So really, that's quite a weak reason to be spending all this money.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Egypt has been getting equal amounts of aid since Sadat signed the peace accords back in the late 70's.
According to the most recent House Appropriations bill, Egypt gets 1.9 billion for its 50 million people, while Israel gets 2.7 billion for its 6 million people.
Personally, I think they should both be getting about 1.9 and 2.7 billion less than that.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by maximusveritas
Even if you concede that we would have gotten involved in the first Gulf War without our ties to Israel, I think you are off in thinking that Israel didn't retaliate just because of its friendship with the United States. Say we weren't friends with Israel at the time, you are saying they would have retaliated. This would have probably led to another Arab-Israeli War, which would have ended in Israel using WMD. According to quite a few people on this board, this would have been a desirable endpoint. So really, that's quite a weak reason to be spending all this money.
That was probably the only thing that kept Israel from retaliating.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by maximusveritas
Even if you concede that we would have gotten involved in the first Gulf War without our ties to Israel, I think you are off in thinking that Israel didn't retaliate just because of its friendship with the United States. Say we weren't friends with Israel at the time, you are saying they would have retaliated. This would have probably led to another Arab-Israeli War, which would have ended in Israel using WMD. According to quite a few people on this board, this would have been a desirable endpoint. So really, that's quite a weak reason to be spending all this money.
If you're really saying this then I don't think anything will ever change your mind.

You're arguing that:

1) The US would not have gotten involved with Iraq if it weren't for Israel? You don't think Kuwait & Saudi Arabia had anything to do with that?

2) You think that Israel would have not retaliated because of fear of turning it into a larger conflict? You can't be serious.

Last edited by popo; 09-16-2003 at 04:22 PM..
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:14 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by popo
With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

1) Many Jews are Arabs

But, if you're refering solely to Muslim/Christian Israelis from Arab descent...


2) 10% of Israeli paliament is Arab, in line with the general population.

3) There exists many Arab parties within Israel.

But, if you're refering to the one Arab party that was for a time banned last year because the leader met various times with Hamas and in Syria (a sworn enemy of the State) called for Arab nations to stand up against Israel, then you're wrong again. The party, Balad Party, was reinstated by the Israeli Supreme Court before the election.

How's that for a theocracy?

no you are wrong, the arabs make up 20% as yes, that party was banned true, and as of now, there is no party for the non jewish 20% arabic peoples in Israel. and again, so much for democracy.
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:24 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by popo


"Political parties cannot operate legally in Egypt without a license from the Political Parties Committee of the Shura Council. Since its establishment in 1977, this government-controlled body has approved the licensing of only one new political party, in March of this year."
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena...ection-bck.htm


While things might be slowly moving towards democracy in Jordan & Egypt, to call them democracies right now isn't facing the facts. They both have a very long way to go.
Well, given that 1/4 of the population of Israel has no representation in the government, it may be a stretch to call Israel a democracy...
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Old 09-16-2003, 08:41 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
no you are wrong, the arabs make up 20% as yes, that party was banned true, and as of now, there is no party for the non jewish 20% arabic peoples in Israel. and again, so much for democracy.
Dude, get yer facts straight.

Israeli Arabs do make up 20% (actually 17-18% but ok) but a good percentage of them (~30%) usually votes for parties such Labour so as not to split the vote with the Left and allow the Likud in. Others vote for Arab/Muslim parties such as Balad, Hadash-Ta`al, and United Arab List, not to mention all-encompassing parties like Am Echad. Contrary to what you may think not all Arabs vote for Arabs and not all Jews vote Likud/Labour.

That being said, last election 10/120 members of parliament were Arab/non-Jewish. The parliament before this one had 13 elected Arabs. One of the current elected Arabs is even part of Sharon's Likud party and IIRC he's one of Sharon's cabinet ministers.

So, here's a list of all elected members and their party affiliation:

http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mki...eng.asp?view=1

Note the 3 Arab parties that have elected officials.

For an in-depth analysis of the Arab vote:

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/act...s/2003/c2.html

And here are all parties that were registered for the 2003 election, along with their platforms:

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/act...platforms.html

C'mon, did you really believe that Israel had banned all Arab non-Jewish parties?? If you were told that, I can understand why you have such contempt for them but realize that whoever is handing you this info is serving up some major BS for their agenda.


Debaser:

I assume that you're talking about Palestinians in the WB & Gaza... As I'm sure you know, they don't make up any percentage of Israel's population since they're not part of Israel. Israel has never nor will it ever annex the WB & Gaza. But just for argument sake, the Palestinians did have their own elections and voted in you know who.

Last edited by popo; 09-16-2003 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:20 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If you are referring to Palestinians technically they want/operate their own state. If you are referring to Muslim Israeli population its sort of a misrepresentation to say that they aren't represented. Here in America we have about a 15% Muslim population and no Muslims in elected positions in the federal government. Does that mean we are not a democracy? Democracy is a style of government not another would for equality. Even before African Americans and women had voting rights we were still a democracy. Don't make the mistake of confusing modern democratic values with democratic style government
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:41 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
If you are referring to Palestinians technically they want/operate their own state. If you are referring to Muslim Israeli population its sort of a misrepresentation to say that they aren't represented. Here in America we have about a 15% Muslim population and no Muslims in elected positions in the federal government. Does that mean we are not a democracy? Democracy is a style of government not another would for equality. Even before African Americans and women had voting rights we were still a democracy. Don't make the mistake of confusing modern democratic values with democratic style government
Very good point but just to be sure that folks like Food Eater Lad see this... non-Jewish Arabs ARE represented by numerous political parties AND by 10-15 (~10% of all elected members) parliamentary members each election.

As has been said many times by many people, Arabs in Israel have more voting rights than in any Arab country. I remember one poll that asked Israeli Arabs whether they would move to Palestine after it becomes a reality and a huge majority said that they would rather stay & live in Israel.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:54 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by popo
Very good point but just to be sure that folks like Food Eater Lad see this... non-Jewish Arabs ARE represented by numerous political parties AND by 10-15 (~10% of all elected members) parliamentary members each election.

As has been said many times by many people, Arabs in Israel have more voting rights than in any Arab country. I remember one poll that asked Israeli Arabs whether they would move to Palestine after it becomes a reality and a huge majority said that they would rather stay & live in Israel.
Do you know where to find that poll?
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