04-26-2003, 09:13 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
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The proof that Saddam worked with bin Laden
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04-26-2003, 11:35 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Insane
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Urm, there are plenty of "proof" about US supporting terrorist organizations also. Different countries have their own national interest in minds when they engage in such behaviour. There is no such thing as a good terrorism(led by CIA) or bad terrorism(Arab, Muslim etc.)
I also like that this evidence was found by a newspaper. Am I to believe that the CIA is that incompetent? EDIT: This is getting predictable. Where have I seen it before!
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04-27-2003, 10:04 PM | #3 (permalink) |
The Original Emo Gangsta
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Must...resist...urge...to...post...picture...of...
fuck it, here's Rumsfeld and Hussein shaking hands once again! <img src="http://www.msnbc.com/news/1639839.jpg">
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04-27-2003, 11:28 PM | #4 (permalink) |
42, baby!
Location: The Netherlands
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I had hoped you had resisted that urge... it's so useless and pointless. After all, it's not like Rumsfeld meeting Saddam in the 80s has *anything* to do with Saddam meeting Al-Qaida guys in the 90s.
But I suspect you just don't care about logical debates... |
04-27-2003, 11:50 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
The Northern Ward
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04-27-2003, 11:55 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
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Notice, historical hindsight begins and ends where one chooses--not according to objective socio-historical occurences. |
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04-28-2003, 12:43 AM | #8 (permalink) | |
The Original Emo Gangsta
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Also, the United States supplied satellite intelligence and military advice to Saddam Hussein during the 10-year war that followed his 1980 invasion of Iran. Might not be Al-Qaeda, but has something to do with all the shit that's going on in the desert. Oddly enough, he seems to be shaking hands in the 80's too. As far as Al-Qaeda, in 1979, the CIA launched a covert operation that supported the war of certain Muslim states against the Russians, most notably Afghanistan, which the Russians had invaded. Both Saudi Arabia and the United States supported the defense of Afghanistan, giving money, and more importantly arms. Oddly enough, the Taliban and our good friend Osama received this diplomatic gesture. If you want me to, I'll stop reading history and put a flag sticker on my car like everyone else.
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04-28-2003, 12:44 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
42, baby!
Location: The Netherlands
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More importantly, should the CIA *not* have trained Osama and his merry men? You know, so that Russia might still have been in Afghanistan, and the Soviet Union might not have suffered a humiliating defeat that pretty much ensured it's own downfall? Sometimes one has to support some not-so-nice people to get rid of an even greater problem at that time. Just like the whole US-supporting-Iraq thing. Of course, everyone seems to forget that it wasn't just the US supporting Iraq, but that pretty much *everyone* supported Iraq in it's war against the huge threat in Iran... How about France's Chirac giving Saddam a guided tour of a nuke plant, German companies building chemical weapons factories, and Russian and French companies selling huge amounts of weapons to Iraq? If you look at the "historical context", one has to look at *everything*, not just the things that support your side in a debate... |
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04-28-2003, 01:18 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
The Original Emo Gangsta
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04-28-2003, 05:23 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Junkie
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grin, that picture of rumsfeld and hussein always makes me chuckle
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04-28-2003, 08:48 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
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04-28-2003, 09:27 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Winner
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This is old news. We knew about this stuff 4 years ago.
Here's a quote from this FoxNews article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85274,00.html Quote:
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04-28-2003, 01:07 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Psycho
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It’s not quite this simple, but this is how this thread reads so far:
Person A posts a link saying: “Here is ‘proof’ of a link between Al Qa-eda and Hussein. Game, set, match.” Person B posts a picture of Rumsfeld and Hussein, suggesting that links don’t mean much. S/he might even have been implying that 'links' don’t equal ‘proof’. Person A says: “That isn't relevant, because the geo-political situation was different back then.” Then Person B says: “But when your ‘proof’ occurred, it was a different geo-political situation also, just like the picture of Rumsfeld/Hussein. Person A says: "That's different. And quit arguing things that support only your side". Ye gods… |
04-28-2003, 03:00 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
The Original Emo Gangsta
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04-28-2003, 03:12 PM | #17 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
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Give it up, Dragonlich.
They demand proof and when you provide it, they brush it off or bring up unrelated topics to counter. There is no bunkerbuster that will ever get through to them.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
04-28-2003, 04:20 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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Do you recognize that we are the same that way? At least there is something. |
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04-28-2003, 04:27 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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To quote the Bare Naked Ladies,
"Well I guess that's one thing we got."
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
04-28-2003, 06:32 PM | #21 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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For his sanity, not yours smooth.
Don't ever make the mistake of thinking I'm on your side in this.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
04-28-2003, 06:47 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Everything's better with bacon
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What's really funny is that at one time (early 80's) everything the US was doing was "alright" by many people's standards-of course we probably knew a lot less then too.
Now, however, we know quite a bit more. As informed people with all sorts of information at our fingertips, we find some of the acts of the US government distasteful. You know what? Feel free to disagree, it's your right. Feel free to bitch and moan, that's also your right. One thing you have to ask yourself is, are you glad you know more now then you did then?
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04-28-2003, 11:17 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
42, baby!
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It seems to me that I look at the whole picture, while some other people here deem it necessary to only point at one side (the US) and their faults. What some people seem to forget, is that without some of those US "faults", the world would be very different than it is today. We cannot know *how* different, but I'm willing to bet that most of you wouldn't like that world. Just as an example: if the US (along with the rest of the world) had not supported Iraq, it would have lost the Iran-Iraq war. Iran would then have conquered ("liberated") most of the other countries there, which would have led to one big fundy Muslim state in the middle-east... that would have meant either a *huge* oil crisis and accompanying blackmail, or a very bloody west-versus-east war to secure the oil. If Iran was then allowed to do as it pleased, this would also have led to the destruction ("liberation") of Israel, and the murder of many of it's inhabitants. Now, you can agree with this scenario or not, but that's the kind of scenario world leaders have to deal with on a daily basis. How would you have reacted to such things? |
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04-29-2003, 06:39 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Non-smokers die everyday
Location: Montreal
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Dragonlich, attempts at precognition are not a good way to support an argument. You could say "what if" for just about any situation and extrapolate like it's going out of style, but this isn't concrete evidence and so it doesn't support your point.
Any action has short-term and long-term impacts. The latter are obviously more difficult (if not impossible) to determine. By providing weapons and training to help push back Russia all those years ago, the US knew what the short-term impacts would be. Did they know about 9-11 or the current war? Of course not, since these things could not be predicted. They also could not have happened, but they did. Cause and effect can be extremely tricky, but while certain key events may certainly produce others, I think it's foolish to claim to know the future with any kind of certainty.
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04-29-2003, 08:06 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
42, baby!
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You're saying that it's impossible to predict the future effects of your actions today, are you? Then why are *some people* here saying that the US shouldn't have done this, and shouldn't have done that, etc? At the time, they seemed good ideas, after all... The reality of high-level crisis meetings is as I described it: something happens (Iraq attacks Iran, Iran strikes back, seems to be winning). Military and political figures then produce a series of potential scenarios of what might happen. They suggest a series of potential solutions to prevent the bad scenarios from coming true. The president and his staff then decide what to do, based on these scenarios and solutions. As they cannot foresee the future, there are always potential side-effects they hadn't thought of. However, they cannot do *nothing*, because the results could (would?) be nasty. With hindsight, one might say that certain actions were wrong, and that the positive effects do not outweigh the negative, but at the moment that you make those decisions, you try to do what you think is right. Politicians make mistakes; after all, even with all their information, they're just as blind as the rest of us, stumbling along from one crisis to the next. Blaming them for the consequences of their decisions isn't really fair if those consequences couldn't have been foreseen. Or does anyone think the CIA could have known that Osama and his fellow Afghani mujahideen would end up fighting a holy war against the USA, for example? If you do, I think you're giving these guys too much credit; after all, they weren't even able to prevent 9-11; how then would they be able to look 20 years into the future? |
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04-29-2003, 08:52 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Non-smokers die everyday
Location: Montreal
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Dragonlich,
I wasn't attempting to be on your side or against you. I was just saying that using hypothetical scenarios (your own, not the military's) as examples was a poor way to build an argument, since these are based on assumption, not concrete evidence.
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A plan is just a list of things that don't happen. |
04-29-2003, 09:19 AM | #27 (permalink) | |
42, baby!
Location: The Netherlands
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And my scenarios weren't just made up on the spot. They were a summary of the scenarios that were widely used back in the days of the Iran-Iraq war, used as justification for supporting Iraq. |
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04-29-2003, 09:39 AM | #28 (permalink) |
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Location: NYC
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For KillerYoda and his supporters –
New York Times 1986: "Chirac has said many times that he is a personal friend of Saddam Hussein." <img src="http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Apr/20034295032925940918315.jpg"> <img src="http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Apr/20034293973815364805104.jpg"> StratFor.com - "In September 1975, Hussein traveled to Paris, where Chirac personally gave him a tour of a French nuclear plant. During that visit, Chirac said, “Iraq is in the process of beginning a coherent nuclear program and France wants to associate herself with that effort in the field of reactors.” France sold two reactors to Iraq, with the agreement signed during Hussein’s visit. The Iraqis purchased a 70-megawatt reactor, along with six charges of 26 points of uranium enriched to 93 percent -- in other words, enough weapons-grade uranium to produce three to four nuclear devices. Baghdad also purchased a one-megawatt research reactor, and France agreed to train 600 Iraqi nuclear technicians and scientists -- the core of Iraq’s nuclear capability today. Other dimensions of the relationship were decided on during this visit and implemented in the months afterward. France agreed to sell Iraq $1.5 billion worth of weapons -- including the integrated air defense system that was destroyed by the United States in 1991, about 60 Mirage F1 fighter planes, surface-to-air missiles and advanced electronics. The Iraqis, for their part, agreed to sell France $70 million worth of oil. During this period, Chirac and Hussein formed what Chirac called a close personal relationship. As the New York Times put it in a 1986 report about Chirac’s attempt to return to the premiership, the French official “has said many times that he is a personal friend of Saddam Hussein of Iraq.” In 1987, the Manchester Guardian Weekly quoted Chirac as saying that he was “truly fascinated by Saddam Hussein since 1974.” Whatever personal chemistry there might have been between the two leaders obviously remained in place a decade later, and clearly was not simply linked to the deals of 1974-75. Politicians and businessmen move on; they don’t linger the way Chirac did." The reason i posted this, is to show that all world leaders deal with scum.
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When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression Last edited by Mr. Mojo; 04-29-2003 at 09:41 AM.. |
04-29-2003, 09:56 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Upright
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So- Now we have more documents siting proof of a tie between Osama and Co. and Saddam Hussein.
1. The first sterling silver, bullet- proof link between our two antagonists was found just before Colin Powell spoke to the Security Council the second time, grasping for any sort of support. This smoking gun was discovered by British Intelligence, and dekunked entirely within 24 hours. In fact, it was shown to have been plagiarised, (typos and grammatical errors included) from 3 different sources, one being a ten year old grad-thesis. 2. Ok fast forward to 3 weeks ago. Ari Fleischer tells the planet that they found proof that Iraq was working on Nuclear wmd. Saddam imported 70 tons uranium from Nigeria. Within 20 hours of release, the documents were shown to be the weakest of sophistic forgeries. So, based on the administrations justifications for this war so far, and their "proof", logic would dictate an healthy dose of skepticism, perhaps? |
04-29-2003, 10:21 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
42, baby!
Location: The Netherlands
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04-29-2003, 10:50 AM | #31 (permalink) | |||
The Original Emo Gangsta
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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team." Last edited by KillerYoda; 04-29-2003 at 10:57 AM.. |
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04-29-2003, 11:39 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
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I hate that photo of Rummy as the fact that people, not saying you, like to blame the US for all the problems in the world. Every nation has some responsibility for Saddam being in power. And I never said its "ok when the US does it" – That’s just world politics of 'an enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Most time this policy blows up in your face down the road. But the world thinks short term. If we're responsible for supporting Saddam, isn’t it our responsibility to take him out? Righting a old wrong.
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04-29-2003, 12:02 PM | #33 (permalink) | |
The Original Emo Gangsta
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And thanks for the link.
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