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Old 10-16-2003, 08:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Israeli Propaganda or Truth

Either right click save as or stream it


video was a bit scary....being that im american i dont think i could every understand why those people hate each other so much.....


but teaching hate to children is pretty sick
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Old 10-16-2003, 08:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 10-16-2003, 08:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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try now
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Old 10-16-2003, 09:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I dont see it as propaganda. I see it as a horrible, terrible reality. I also see it as being extremely one sided. IMO
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Old 10-16-2003, 09:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't see propaganda - It is in your face reality. If one were to think of the terrible fear one would have if they had to live under the circumstances these people live with on a day to day basis it is would be unbearable. I don't see it as one sided at all - If I were a parent I would be terrified to try and raise a child under either circumstance. One must realize that the Israelis are not their only enemy - the Israelis are just the enemy they can reach out and touch on a daily basis - there is no reason what-so-ever to think they would not do the same thing here if we were within reach.
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Old 10-16-2003, 10:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Wow such one sided total propaganda. What about the terrorism the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians ? Having helicopters fire missiles into crowed streets, having tanks and bulldozers destroy peoples homes and possessions, building a massive wall on Palestinian land. Each side is guilty of terrorism, murder and destruction. Neither government wants peace, both hate each other far too much. Iím also sorry to say the American government has only made things worse. If any country is in violation of the UN then no aid or trade should be allowed with that country. If that was the case then just because of the financial hardship the people would have to suffer would make the two sides come to a peace settlement. By supplying financial and military aid to Israel the American government is only prolonging the war between these two countries.
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Old 10-16-2003, 10:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I find it interesting. Does anyone have any IDF training videos.
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Old 10-16-2003, 04:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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What complete and utter garbage. I'm seriously offended by this video. What a shame it is that such blatant propaganda can be distributed and people here in the West actually take it seriously. It displays the views of an Israeli hawk, without any regard for intellectual honesty.

It frustrates me that this video can be posted here without proper condemnation.



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Old 10-16-2003, 06:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Two sides to this street aren't there - wonder which side the sun shines on?
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Old 10-16-2003, 06:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Two sides to this street aren't there - wonder which side the sun shines on?
You have to ask?
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Old 10-16-2003, 08:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Sure its onesided, its also totally true.
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Old 10-16-2003, 08:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by OFKU0
I find it interesting. Does anyone have any IDF training videos.

Im having difficulty in connecting videos; they show up on my PC becasue Im gathering they're cached, but on the forum are nothing more than a broken link-- so if anyone has the proper procedure Id appreciate it.


Anyway here's a good example of propaganda. I dont see any truth in the following slide show, nothing but one lie after another.

http://www.al-awda.org/media/ppt/PRRCppt.htm


Also Im having difficulty in believing something Im finding to be disturbing thats why I didnt want to put the quote here. Could anyone please find the what appears to be the infamous quote that the hero Ariel Sharon stated documented by General Ouze Merham?

Using the generals name along with Sharons quote may bring up some findings. If you cant find more than three different sources its proably not worth even being considered true, right? Thanks
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Old 10-17-2003, 04:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Just because something is one-sided doesn't mean that it is untrue. This video is not "Bowling for Palestine."
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Old 10-17-2003, 05:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Produced by CNN???

hmmm, Well it's probably all true.

But you have to ask yourself, why is it that so many Palestinians hate the jews in the first place? How is it even possible to get the Palestinians so riled up? Arabs aren't exactly renouned fighters yet they will pick up a rock to go against a tank. Seems pretty desperate to me.

Maybe because the jews are even worse offenders when it comes to murder, and terrorism. Bottom line, for every jew that has been killed by the Palestinians, 9 Palestinians have been killed by the jews.

Sad world over there.
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Old 10-17-2003, 06:31 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by james t kirk
Produced by CNN???

Bottom line, for every jew that has been killed by the Palestinians, 9 Palestinians have been killed by the jews.

Sad world over there.
Actual in the last 3 years since the infitada uprising it is approximately 3 Palestinians killed to one Isreali.
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Old 10-17-2003, 06:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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This wasn't produced by CNN, it was produced by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. That should answer the question about propaganda right there.

That's not to say that there is no truth in it, but you should look at it with a very skeptical eye, just as you would look at anything produced by the PA.
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Old 10-17-2003, 10:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Im having difficulty in connecting videos; they show up on my PC becasue Im gathering they're cached, but on the forum are nothing more than a broken link-- so if anyone has the proper procedure Id appreciate it.


Anyway here's a good example of propaganda. I dont see any truth in the following slide show, nothing but one lie after another.

http://www.al-awda.org/media/ppt/PRRCppt.htm


Also Im having difficulty in believing something Im finding to be disturbing thats why I didnt want to put the quote here. Could anyone please find the what appears to be the infamous quote that the hero Ariel Sharon stated documented by General Ouze Merham?

Using the generals name along with Sharons quote may bring up some findings. If you cant find more than three different sources its proably not worth even being considered true, right? Thanks

Who is General Ouze Merham and what does what Ariel Sharon statements have t o do with anything. I found the quote, but only from one source so what does that say. You either using sarcasm or shooting your own foot here.

No comment on the slide show.
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Old 10-17-2003, 10:59 AM   #18 (permalink)
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israel seems to be rather genocidal in their intent.
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Old 10-17-2003, 11:35 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by OFKU0
I find it interesting. Does anyone have any IDF training videos.
I don't, but I have trained with the IDF if you have any questions...
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Old 10-17-2003, 12:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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America supports Israel because they are a democracy. That is why we are involved. Also, any time some sort of peace process gets started, the Palestinians attack again and upset the whole process. Sure, both sides have done horrible things (I believe the Palestinians are worse than the Israelis), but major elements of the Palestinians will never compromise for peace and they truly want to kill all Jews.

Hey G5_Todd,
Teaching kids to kill and hate Jews, reminds me of the Hitler Youth Party that was compulsory for all teens 14 and over after 1936.
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Old 10-17-2003, 12:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Israel is not a democracy so long as a significant proportion of their population is disenfranchised.


The simple fact is that the leadership on both sides relies on the continuation of the conflict to ensure their powerbase. Arafat is no more to blame than Likud.
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Old 10-17-2003, 12:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Pocon you left out the part that is rarley reported in US papers. During the peace process Israel builds more settlements on Palastinian land. Why did you leave out that part?

Since 9 11, Israel has created over 80 new illegal settlements in Palastinian land, but I am sure you read about that in the newspapers....
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Old 10-17-2003, 02:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
Israel is not a democracy so long as a significant proportion of their population is disenfranchised.
Really? I'm interested in hearing this argument out.
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Old 10-17-2003, 03:41 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by George W Bush
Who is General Ouze Merham and what does what Ariel Sharon statements have t o do with anything. I found the quote, but only from one source so what does that say. You either using sarcasm or shooting your own foot here.

No comment on the slide show.

I didnt want to list who he was or what has been recorded becasue I thought it might hold better weight if your found the facts yourself. The comment made by Sharon (there are many others far worse than this) is signifcant in it explain his actions.
Its hard to understand that you only found one source. I list ones that I found, but frankly there just too many.

go to google and put in both names General Ouze Merham Ariel Sharon Im confident your find more than one. It appears Arafat isnt alone. I dont advocate what the bombers are doing at all, but it would seem if America didnt withstrain Sharon he would give the Palestinians 2 options go to Jordan or our settlers will take care of you with the complete protection of the IDF. Theres is going to come a point when expansion continues on both the Palestinian side and the ILLEGAL settlement side that shit is going to hit the fan. I stopped trying to understand why the illegal settlements havent been dismantled. A few empty outposts and smaller ones dont mean anything. Why not all? Why are new ones going up? To me the message is clear and unmistakable.

Another point I hear is the Palestinians had their chance. . .well if you havent viewed the slides at least look at this. Tell me what your opinion is on this:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf




***Maybe an entire area should just be devoted to this subject because I dont think anything comes up as consistently as this, and no matter what side subject the thread is started as it always ends up at the same place.****
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Old 10-17-2003, 03:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pocon1
Also, any time some sort of peace process gets started, the Palestinians attack again and upset the whole process.

Funny, for decades they did nothing and were a good little oppressed people. Lot of good that did for them.


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Old 10-17-2003, 03:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLM3
Funny, for decades they did nothing and were a good little oppressed people. Lot of good that did for them.
If by good you mean the distruction of Israel, then yes it didn't help them.
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Old 10-17-2003, 08:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hey Debaser, all of Israels citizens can vote, so it is a democracy. Now who they choose to be citizens is a different story, but every country does have the right to restrict immigration and citizenship rights.

Does anyone know if Palestinians can become Israeli citizens?
I honestly don't know and right now I am too lazy to look it up.
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Old 10-17-2003, 08:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser


The simple fact is that the leadership on both sides relies on the continuation of the conflict to ensure their powerbase. Arafat is no more to blame than Likud.
This is the most honest statement I've heard in the last 3 years from any source.
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Old 10-19-2003, 05:11 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pocon1
Hey Debaser, all of Israels citizens can vote, so it is a democracy. Now who they choose to be citizens is a different story, but every country does have the right to restrict immigration and citizenship rights.

Does anyone know if Palestinians can become Israeli citizens?
I honestly don't know and right now I am too lazy to look it up.
Democracy is not defined as the citizen having the vote, it is defined as those under the power of the government having the vote.

Israel does not fall under this definition. And no, there is no mechanism for displaced Palestinians to become citizens of Israel.
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Old 10-19-2003, 10:38 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I spoke to a Georgetown University history professor, and she said that there are Arab Israeli citizens who are voted into power in Israel. So I guess if Palestinians choose not to become Israeli citizens and vote, that is their choice.

According to this article, others can become Israeli citizens.



BECOMING A CITIZEN OF ISRAEL
by
Adam Starchild
The number of U.S. citizens taking out Israeli citizenship is high. In fact in 1992 the number grew 35% over the year before, while the number from the former Soviet Union declined.
Under Israeli law, the acquisition of nationality is one of the few areas in which the law differentiates between Jews and non-Jews. The Law of Return grants every Jew the right to go to Israel as an oleh (Jewish immigrant), and the Israel Nationality Law automatically confers Israeli nationality on every oleh upon entering the country unless he specifies otherwise. The law even provides that a Jew who expresses his desire to settle in Israel may be granted nationality by virtue of the Law of Return even before he physically immigrates, a clause which allows the Israeli government to issue travel documents to refugees in emergencies.

Article 4A of the Law of Return extends the Jewish rights to family members: "(a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion."

The next section makes it clear that the family member need not even be living: "(b) It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose right a right under subsection (a) is claimed is still alive and whether or not he has immigrated to Israel."

Article 4B provides the definition of a Jew: "For the purposes of this Law, 'Jew' means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

Section 5 of the law allows the Minister of the Interior to grant visas and citizenship to minors without their parents consent, a section that has recently been used for minors from Ukraine, Moldova, and former Yugoslavia who decided to flee without their families.

By contrast, an Arab or any other person not qualifying as a Jew under the Law of Return may acquire Israeli nationality in one of five ways detailed in the Nationality Law and summarized below.


1. Nationality by residence in Israel
Subject to certain qualifications, this section of the law grants Israeli citizenship to former Palestinian citizens who are currently residents of Israel and have lived in Israel since its creation on May 14, 1948, or have entered Israel legally between that time and July 14, 1952, the date the Nationality Law went into effect.

2. Nationality by birth
Nationality by reason of birth is given to any person whose father or mother was an Israeli national at the time of his birth. This provision holds true regardless of where the person in question may happen to have been born.

3. Naturalization by birth on Israeli territory in addition to 5 years immediate prior residence in Israel.
This provision grants Israeli nationality to persons who are born on Israeli territory who meet these qualifications: apply for Israeli citizenship between their 18th and 21st birthdays, have 5 consecutive years of residence in Israel immediately prior to filing a request for citizenship, have no criminal convictions for violation of security regulations, and have not been sentenced to jail for 5 years or more for violation of any other type of law.

4. Naturalization
A person 18 years of age or older may acquire Israeli nationality by naturalization if he meets these criteria: (1) is currently in Israel, (2) has been in Israel for 3 of the 5 preceding years, (3) intends to settle in the country (4) has some knowledge of Hebrew (former Palestinian citizens are exempt from this provision), (5) renounces any and all foreign nationalities, and (6) takes an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel. Completion of all of the above requirements is not essential in all instances, however, as the Minister of the Interior at his discretion has the power (for a special reason) to waive requirements (1), (2),(4), and (5) above.

5. By grant from the Minister of the Interior to certain categories of minors.
The law provides, in addition, for a discretionary grant of citizenship to minors who are not Israeli nationals but who are residents of Israel.
It is important to note that the law discriminates in favor of Jews against all others only as to the method of acquiring nationality. In theory at least, once nationality has been acquired all Israeli nationals are treated equally.

The Israeli passport provides visa-free travel to most countries in the world.


About the Author
Adam Starchild is the author of numerous books and articles on offshore investing and living. This is a sample chapter from his book How To Legally Obtain A Second Citizenship and Passport -- and Why You Want To.
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Old 10-19-2003, 11:03 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Arab Israelis != Palestinians.


The catch all phrase in your post is:
Quote:
Subject to certain qualifications...
Israel is already in a quandary, since in about 50 years they will cease to have a jewish majority. Why would they welcome even more gentiles, especially Palestinians, into their country.

If the Palestinians were treated with anything resembling parity then there would be no violence on their part.
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Old 10-19-2003, 12:15 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Hey Debaser, I think all countries have qualifications about who will be granted citizenship. Nobody wants a bunch of lawless people to enter a country.

Also you said:

If the Palestinians were treated with anything resembling parity then there would be no violence on their part.

I think that is a pretty broad statement considering that many Muslims (not all!) would be happy to wipe all Jews, especially Israeli Jews off the face of the earth.
It might be more accurate to say that if both sides could look past 50 years of bad blood, many people on both sides could work on creating a better situation.
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Old 10-19-2003, 12:43 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Qualifications, yes. However, to deny a large portion of your population the vote is not to participate in any form of democracy. Israel needs to shit or get off the pot. Either grant citizenship to the Palestinians in the occupied territories, or get the hell out and let them determine their own fate.

As long as one side is marginalized and oppressed, there will be no peace, regardless of history.
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Old 10-19-2003, 09:21 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
Qualifications, yes. However, to deny a large portion of your population the vote is not to participate in any form of democracy. Israel needs to shit or get off the pot. Either grant citizenship to the Palestinians in the occupied territories, or get the hell out and let them determine their own fate.

As long as one side is marginalized and oppressed, there will be no peace, regardless of history.
Palestinians in the WB and Gaza held their own elections in 1996 and elected Arafat and his cronies for a 4 year term. It was Arafat's decision to not hold elections since then and Qureia has publically voiced dismay at this.

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...54F0DF243B7618

And speaking of polls, 75% of Palestinians support last week's suicide bombing in Haifa that killed 21 innocent Jews & Arabs eating lunch together, including 4 children. You'll have to excuse me as I now puke.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackage...8&section=news
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Old 10-19-2003, 09:42 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Yeah, this is obviously propeganda, but it's true none the less... pretty sick chubs.
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Old 10-19-2003, 10:51 PM   #36 (permalink)
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rt
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Old 10-19-2003, 10:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Sun Tzu
I didnt want to list who he was or what has been recorded becasue I thought it might hold better weight if your found the facts yourself. The comment made by Sharon (there are many others far worse than this) is signifcant in it explain his actions.
Its hard to understand that you only found one source. I list ones that I found, but frankly there just too many.

go to google and put in both names General Ouze Merham Ariel Sharon Im confident your find more than one. It appears Arafat isnt alone. I dont advocate what the bombers are doing at all, but it would seem if America didnt withstrain Sharon he would give the Palestinians 2 options go to Jordan or our settlers will take care of you with the complete protection of the IDF. Theres is going to come a point when expansion continues on both the Palestinian side and the ILLEGAL settlement side that shit is going to hit the fan. I stopped trying to understand why the illegal settlements havent been dismantled. A few empty outposts and smaller ones dont mean anything. Why not all? Why are new ones going up? To me the message is clear and unmistakable.

Another point I hear is the Palestinians had their chance. . .well if you havent viewed the slides at least look at this. Tell me what your opinion is on this:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf




***Maybe an entire area should just be devoted to this subject because I dont think anything comes up as consistently as this, and no matter what side subject the thread is started as it always ends up at the same place.****
I only found one source on that quote which leads me to believe it may be falsified. I dont think he said that; it would make him just as much of a terrroist as Arafat. He seems to be a hero defending his people; doing what he has to do to defend it.
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Old 10-19-2003, 11:34 PM   #38 (permalink)
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GWB:

www.newsturmer.com/Andre%20artikler/ what_ariel_sharon_said_in_an_int.htm

www.geocities.com/myjoy18/arielsharon1956lie.htm

http://www.countries.com/messageboar...ages/1057.html

http://www.natallchicago.com/Sharon%202for1.pdf.

www.miftah.org/QuotesList.cfm?&StartRow=1

www.silipups.net/archives/000097.html

www.ymaonline.org/pdf/Fact%20Sheet%206.pdf

Thats half of the sources from the first page-with 10 more to follow it. The mans actions appear to follow his philosophy.

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child born in this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man, Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do".-----Ariel Sharon

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

I will rephrase myself: I was not personally there to witness Sharon say these things, so its my belief based on the whole picture (US-Israel/UK/UN/OTs) details I wont go into becasue frankly its getting old. Its also getting hard not to say exactly what I percieve is happening.

You really see this man a hero?

Heres the big question: Its obvious the now infamous settlements arent going anywhere. (The dog and pony show was OK for the media for a couple of days-- a few abandoned outpost and small scale one taken down: the settlers even started resisting those) and new ones are going up.

Two populations expanding within a designated boundry. Basic mathematical projections easily show whats going to happen. The old "this town aint big enough for the both of us" the big difference is settlers that are there illegally have the full protection of the IDF. WHen clashes occur (they happen from both sides) its the Palestinians who are given the label "gunmen" terrorist. SO what it appears to be coming down to is Palestinians either better join the majority of their fellow populus in Jordan; or . . .

GWB Im not trying to be a smart ass here. If what Im interpreting appears as though Im missing something help me to see it, because this is an issue that truly is effecting my day to day life. Im tired of feeling pissed about this so guidance is welcomed.

I'm not asking for a history lesson- Im very familiar with it with various perspectives in historical documentation and record as well as having been there personally 27 times. I want to see how someone that doesnt see what Im seeing has given them whatever perspective they have.
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Last edited by Sun Tzu; 10-19-2003 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 10-20-2003, 12:15 AM   #39 (permalink)
Kiss of Death
 
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If I were an Israeli I would consider him a hero. Hell I'm not an Israeli and I think he is a hero. He is a man who has been at the frontlines fighting those who would destroy him and his people for over 50 years. It's not my place to judge him, that is between him and Yahweh. You have to look at the context of the situation... The Arabs never wanted peace, they don't today, and they won't tomorrow. What you don't understand is you can't play nice when it comes to war, its either kill first or be killed, just happens that Ariel Sharon is very good at bringing the pain to the Arabs.
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Old 10-20-2003, 12:28 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Beep Beep Sun Tzu, just curious but did you bother to read the rest of the that Ariel Sharon letter?

Quote:
Hello,


The comment that you quoted is indeed an invention, and a rather lame one. To begin with, any public expression of such sentiments would be grounds for dismissing a soldier from the army. Hatred is considered to render the soldier incapable of clear judgement and unreliable in carrying out the will of the state. Indeed many young hotheads have been dismissed from active combat duty because of their expression of racist sentiments--sentiments that could have serious consequences in an army in which Jews serve alongside Druze and Bedouin Arab soldiers.

One clue to the fact that the comment is a pure fabrication is the use of the word "Palestinian." In 1956, the term had still not taken hold in reference to Palestinian Arabs, but was at times used to refer to Jews born in Mandatory Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel. The Arabs in Palestine often referred to themselves as residents of "Greater Syria," or of the new state of Jordan. Many were also eligible for citizenship in the new state of Iraq, by virtue of their parents having come from the region prior to the establishment of Iraq. However, a large number had been caught in the process of migrating to look for work at the very time when the modern states were being set up by the great powers, and thus found themselves stateless on arrival in Mandatory Palestine.

At any rate, the term "Palestinian Arab" was made popular only in the early 1960's by what eventually became Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, the Palestine Liberation Movement, which was founded in 1964. It did not catch on right away, and certainly had not gained enough provenance to have been used by Ariel Sharon in 1956. There is simply no way that an Israeli--and certainly not one expressing the sentiments ascribed to Sharon in this comment--would at that time have used the term "Palestinian" to refer to the Arabs. Even when the term began to be used by the PLO in the 1960's, it was scoffed at, on the grounds that there had never been any state in the region called Palestine (see Golda Meir's comment, "There is no such thing as the 'Palestinian people'," referring to the PLO's use of the term.).

I hope this will help to clarify things.

Sincerely,

Yael Shahar
International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism
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