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Old 01-15-2004, 09:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Location: Grantville, Pa
School Vouchers

[I yanked my (this) post off the englands health care thread.]

Voucher systems would only give money from Title 10. Title ten is the only money that the Federal government, which is all Bush can control, doles out to education. The rest of our education spending is state budgets. That amount of money amounts to 1,100 dollars per student. It's equalizer money. Title 10 is meant to level the playing field between different school districts around the country.

That 1,100 will be enticing and effective for upper middle class people who can afford the average 7,500 a year it costs to send a kid to private school. It will also be money given to families who already send their kids to public schools. But for everyone else, the middle class and poor kids, that won't amount to more than a drop in the bucket. It will take a big chunk of that 'evening out money' out of the poor schools who really need it though. And that only makes our schools worse. "No Child Left Behind" is just the first step in fully erasing the american public school system.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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er.. I wonder where the original source got their numbers from... The cost of a private university is far more than 7,500, in fact it is frequently inthe range of $30k - 40k (numbers contain campus living, courses, incidentals, etc from the colleges estimates, I checked 2 years ago when I myself was applying, so minus on campus living would be in the range of $15-25k). Public Universities (not City Colleges or State Colleges) generally are closer to 7,500, the UC I go to is 6k per year.

Either way, its no surprise that the public education system is being dismantled. Even the secondary schools are bad for students. No child left behind is synonymous with no child can go farther, learn more, or be excellent. Its stagnating our greater minds.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Not talking about university, this is grade school, middle school, high school.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by numist
er.. I wonder where the original source got their numbers from... The cost of a private university is far more than 7,500, in fact it is frequently inthe range of $30k - 40k (numbers contain campus living, courses, incidentals, etc from the colleges estimates, I checked 2 years ago when I myself was applying, so minus on campus living would be in the range of $15-25k). Public Universities (not City Colleges or State Colleges) generally are closer to 7,500, the UC I go to is 6k per year.

Either way, its no surprise that the public education system is being dismantled. Even the secondary schools are bad for students. No child left behind is synonymous with no child can go farther, learn more, or be excellent. Its stagnating our greater minds.
I believe he's talking about primary and secondary schools.

I'm undecided about vouchers. I think they should be tried in some districts to see how they work. The argument against the point that the vouchers won't help the very poor is that it would be enough money to put them into parochial school. The counterargument to that argument is predictable and deals with church and state.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Right. I and my brothers were sent to Catholic school. I did it from k-12. I am catholic, so my church ponied up 3k to my education there. That still left my parents paying 3.5k a year.

I had friends there who were not catholic, they had to pay the full tuition of 6,500 a year to go to that school.

So unless you have a church nearby that will pay for half of your private education, or are willing to join a religion/church that will pay for part of your education you are still up feces creek with no locomotion.

And still, 3,500 will still be a huge chunk of change to afford for your child even with the 1,100 voucher.
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Old 01-15-2004, 11:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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You know why so many public school suck and perform below 'standards' and below private school numbers?

No free market.

Bring the free market into schooling. Somewhere I read the average total amount spent per student is 7500ish a year. Lets give THAT to parents and let them choose the school, privately owned and operated. If it sucks, students will leave, if its good, they will be fighting to get in. All schools would be 'private', all would HAVE to perform or they wouldn't stay in bussiness.

The benifits of this would be gigantic, but it would take someone with the balls to stand up to the teachers union and the democrats in their pocket.
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Old 01-15-2004, 02:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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No actually. But please tell me why you think schools are performing below standards? Especially considering all they have to deal with.

Test scores have been rising in all areas since the 1970's.
Science is the only standardized sticking point for the United States.

Americas public school children are increasingly made up of a larger percentage of poor, single parent, and foreign born with English as a second language. That is a tremendous hurdle to overcome for public schools.
Minority percentages have increased from 20 to 40% since the 1970's. Minority dropout rates have decreased and the gap between minority and white test scores are closing.
Plus public school serve students with learning and physical disabilities. Something your average private school doesn't do. They leave that to the specialty schools, which cost a great deal of money.

Private schools perform better, but only because the public schools are handicapped.

Most parents who send their kids to private school do so because they are involved in their kids life and is trying to give them the best education they can afford. Down to the public schools, they take everyone. Private schools don't have to divert funds to teach the special needs kids. This includes the sucicidals, emotionally disturbed, physically and mentally disabled.
Private schools can kick out kids who aren't up to their educational standards, a public school can't.

Making education completely private is not going to help the poor americans. The good schools will cost out of a familys means, and they will be stuck with sub-par or worse.
You want to take the 7500 ish and give it to each student to pick the school of his choice? How you going to do that? 7500 is private costs. The public share is much less than that.

Public schools do work, they tremendously help americans who can't afford an education themselves. It does need some reform though to cut out some of the bureaucracy.
And maybe we should cut out the undesirables, the retarded, disturbed, disabled, and underperformers. You know, make the playing field level. We could easily get the schools up to private standards that way, and do it cheaper.
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Personally I go back and forth over the vouchers thing.

My mom worked her fingers to the bone cleaning people's houses so that I could go to private schools so I appreciate that people want the quality that a private education has come to mean.

Yet it rankles me that it has come to this point: that public schools are seen as inferior.

No, I don't have a solution.
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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The solutions? Parental involvement, first and foremost (how to get that one, I don't know). Smaller classes, the difference between private school class sizes and public school class sizes is astounding. Money, the wealthiest public schools do see benefits in higher test scores and admissions to the better colleges.
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
The solutions? Parental involvement, first and foremost (how to get that one, I don't know). Smaller classes, the difference between private school class sizes and public school class sizes is astounding. Money, the wealthiest public schools do see benefits in higher test scores and admissions to the better colleges.
I know a teacher, so let me address this:


Parental involvement: Absolutely. The problem as you've stated it is, "how?" Many parents simply don't care. I've been told of back to school nights (heavily advertised) where maybe 3 or 4 parents show up.

How do you fight that?


Class size: Again, yes. But voters almost consistently vote down any tax increase (almost knee jerk) that will allow reductions of class size and frequently, will allow maintaining class size.

I know of at least one school district that is facing that dilemma. There is a measure on the ballot for a tax increase just to meet costs. If they don't get it, guess what? Yup, less teachers/aids and bigger classes.

And it looks like they won't get it.


Maybe the American public has lost the will to be a viable culture.
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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And if we can't get this in the public school system with the current crop of leaders, think what will happen if we privatize it all and all these problems coalesce into one huge one.

Think about the kinds of schools disaffectionate parents will send their kids to. The cheapest they can find first off, and that school will have huge class sizes. They will be the equivalent of what we have at the Big time universities. Hundreds of kids, some classes so full kids have to sit in the hall watching on a screen.
These cheapie schools are the bare essentials, the bare minimum in teachers, little to no guidance, a pathetic library, no sports or school sponsored after school activities.

These are the kinds of schools that will be produced on the free market, and there will be a sad level of demand for them.
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
...These cheapie schools are the bare essentials, the bare minimum in teachers, little to no guidance, a pathetic library, no sports or school sponsored after school activities...


I hate to say it, but you are describing some inner city schools right now.

My own personal theory about the decline of the American school centers around the start of the income tax (WW2).

It used to be that mothers (usually) stayed home and formed a community that raised children. And it was a community effort. They also served as resources for each other if there were problems or if a new mom just wasn't up to speed on what to do when little Johnnie wouldn't stop hitting his sister.

This community formed an alliance with teachers that worked very well (and was formalized in the PTA... do they even exist anymore?).

Now both parents must work in order to maintain the same standard of living that took just one parent 60 years ago. There is no sense of community and no safety net for parents who don't know how to parent.

So I guess my solution would start with the elimination of the income tax (it was never supposed to be permanent).

That, or a total Nanny state of 50-75% taxes, where the state takes care of all our needs (Europe is getting there...)
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:

LEAD-IN BY HOST SHALINI TRIPATHI: New information has surfaced on the question of which educational school system is academically beneficial to students. With more on the story, here is Demetria Norris.

STORY: Reports released this year by the National Assessment of Educational Progress indicate that students attending private schools score higher on standardized test than students attending public schools. Other studies suggests that minority students in private schools, particularly African Americans, show greater improvement in the areas of mathematics and science.

Private schools use the Stanford Nine Test, a combination of multiple-choice and open-ended questions. The test focuses on real-life situations and elicits actual performance from students.

The Director at Sweetwater Christian School, Jack Hightower, finds that these tests help private school students compete academically with students from public schools. Hightower says that the Stanford Nine is a better indicator of a student's academic level that tests like the TAAS [and TAKS] which are given in this state's public schools.

"Stanford Nine is a test that tests the student on higher critical thinking skills, it gives us a percentage, where as on the TAAS it is just a yes or no. Whether they are on level or off level you don't really know that. Even some public schools use Stanford Nine now because it gives a more detailed explanation of the level that they achieved on those tests."

Many educational researchers do not believe a comparison can be made between the two types of schools, because private schools are not held to the same accountability that public schools are held.

Private schools use the minimum requirements of the public school's system to pass students to the next level. For example, the Stanford Nine test is a Norm Reference Test, which compares scores of private schools students with other students their age. Superintendent of Champaign Independent School District, Arthur Culver, says that the academic growth and development of students are not captured in the Stanford Nine Test.

"There's a high level of accountability because of the state assessment system, and because the state actually monitors the student success at each district as well as on each campus. Sometimes you go to a private school and that accountability piece is not there because there is no outside agency that's really monitoring things and making sure that all kids are achieving."

yet they have higher scores? (added by Ustwo)

The increasing advancement of educational success of minority students in the private school system is a focal point in a study conducted by Harvard political scientist, Paul Peterson. Based on Peterson's research, African-American students who leave public schools to attend private schools, improve in both math and science.

Sandra Gayden, an African American mother, who has sent her children to both private and public schools, suggests that higher test scores are not the only advantages of going to private schools. Gayden says that the school environment and the attention that the teachers and administration give to the students are also an important factor in school selection. Gayden:

"When my kids were at school, the teachers were there to meet them in the mornings, take them into class, stayed with them all day, even at recess time...it never changed. Versus public school, you may see a teacher, you may not, and if you do, I would suspect that the one teacher is personally dedicated to caring about her children, or her students rather."

Although many parents use test scores in deciding where their children should go to school, other factors may be of equal importance. School environment, teacher dedication and strong administrative leadership can determine which school -- public or private -- regardless of test scores, is best for all students.

Demetria Norris, KPFT News, Houston
The National Assessment of Educational Progress can be found HERE . I went to their data section, and every time I checked a subject/grade leve/public vrs private, the privates were all higher scores (multiple years involved as well). I didn't check them all obviously but quite telling don't you think?

Now, yes public schools are handicapped with who goes there, but think Superbelt WHY do parents who are more involved send their kids to private schools? Maybe because they ARE better?

Ironically that痴 one of the funny complaints about the voucher system, I don't have a source as it was on the radio but some teachers union mouthpiece was saying that vouchers would be bad because they would take the active parents out of a the public schools. I could see her warped and twisted point (sure deny their kid a better education for the possible nebulous and unproven good of other students, how very socialistic), but making ALL the schools private and giving parents a choice would solve this 'issue' without a problem, and maybe those kids with 'less involved' parents would have a chance at least to go to a better school.

I have a nephew with autism. He gets assistance at school, and while he is in a normal public school he does have a teachers aid with him. Making schools private would do nothing to prevent this sort of program. Students with such problems would have a larger voucher (as the govt spends more on them now as it is) to cover such costs. Problem solved.

While not all public schools are bad, they could all be better and like all fields, completion is good. I'll end this with a quote which sums up why our public schools are lacking in so many ways.

Quote:
"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."
Albert Shanker, former president
American Federation of Teachers (1985)
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Old 01-15-2004, 05:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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A school voucher system I'd back.

1> School vouchers are equal to the funding given to public schools (including administrative costs), minus the administrative costs of the school voucher program.

2> If a school accepts a school voucher for a student, the school cannot accept any other form of renumeration from that student, with the possible exception of boarding fees.

Done. If someone wants use the public dole to pay for their child's education, they get the same $-value education as anyone else.

Competition exists, but only on the part of schools. The money they can get for educating one student is highly inelastic, they have to compete not for rich students but for more students.
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Old 01-15-2004, 05:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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And what you said has disproven nothing I said. Like I said, it's all about money and parity and teacher involvement. Privates are only better because they have more money and can afford to pick and choose who goes to their schools.

Yes, minorities who can get into private school do better. That is because they still come out of the poor, urban schools overwhelmingly. Private schools have more money and can focus those resources on normal kids getting better grades.

Give a public schools the money they need, and restructure the bureaucracy to keep the money from getting into the administrations hands, and you will see schools hit some kind of parity with the privates. What you want to do will seriously jeopardize the unfortunate masses.

The government spends more on the poor kids, yeah. But the average per kid is 1,100. You start leveraging that money and you either have to raise taxes, or most kids end up with little to nothing. What the government can give to americas children to go to private schools will not cover their educational costs and most americans will be stuck in some of the worst schools that have ever been in america. Unless of course you want to raise taxes dramatically?
Do it your way and the poor will be stuck in a pit they can't get out of in a fully free market system.
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Old 01-15-2004, 05:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Education should not be a business, it should be an institution.
A business promotes cost cutting, to maximize profits. I don't want my children taught by a corporation.
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Old 01-15-2004, 05:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Education should not be a business, it should be an institution.
A business promotes cost cutting, to maximize profits. I don't want my children taught by a corporation.
I understand.

You want a Jesuit school
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Old 01-15-2004, 05:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
The government spends more on the poor kids, yeah. But the average per kid is 1,100. You start leveraging that money and you either have to raise taxes, or most kids end up with little to nothing. What the government can give to americas children to go to private schools will not cover their educational costs and most americans will be stuck in some of the worst schools that have ever been in america. Unless of course you want to raise taxes dramatically?
Do it your way and the poor will be stuck in a pit they can't get out of in a fully free market system.
Quote:
This is more than three times the average of $8,163 per pupil spent by districts that the New York Department of Education considers similar to Bridgehampton, and more than three and a half times the $6,675 spent by the average New York state public school.
You use your 'facts' and I use mine. I assume you are talking federal dollars, which is pointless, I want a TOTAL voucher, state and federal. The amount spent per student is on par with private, or even more in cases BUT it gives less.

I once had a public school student as a patient of mine, smart girl. She was of Mexican decent and long story short I asked her a few questions. I asked her if she knew what political party Lincoln was in, no idea. So I ask her who was the president of the US (2002) she didn't know. Who was the last president? No clue. I told her who the president was and asked if she knew who his father was, no idea. I wanted to give her an out, this was a SMART girl, so I asked if she was from Mexico, and no she was born and raised in the US. Well this girl was a senior, and that means she had recently taken the government mandated US constitution test. Now I asked how she passed the test, she said the teachers gave them the answers ahead of time. THANKS PUBLIC SCHOOLS another informed voter created.

If you think private schools will do worse then the crap I've seen, you are not a very bright man.
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Old 01-15-2004, 06:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
I understand.

You want a Jesuit school
Catholic was stifling enough!
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Old 01-15-2004, 06:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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http://www.ascd.org/publications/ed_...2/scherer.html

Quote:
The problem is not that we don't know what works. The problem is that we are not willing to pay the bill to provide the things that work for the poorest children in America. And we have not been willing for many, many years. After all, if poor black parents on the South Side of Chicago want to know what works, they really don't need a $2 million grant from Exxon to set up another network of essential schools. All they need to do is to take a bus trip out to a high school in Wilmette and see what money pays for. All they need to do is go out and see schools where there are 16 children in a class with one very experienced teacher. All they need to do is visit a school with 200 IBMs; a school where the roof doesn't leak; a school that is surrounded by green lawns, where the architecture and atmosphere of the school entice people to feel welcome; a school in which the prosperity of the school creates the relaxed atmosphere in which the teachers feel free to innovate, which they seldom do under the conditions of filth and desperation.
Shorter: Money Matters.

Government needs to start paying for what it promises, Like fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. The program was meant to help school districts meet legal obligations to educate children with disabilities and to pay part of the extra expense to do so. Congress was going to fund 40%, they only ever funded 20% of the program. They let the state pick up the rest of the tab. Consequence? The rest of the kids, the ones who are at a normal education level, they suffer.
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Old 01-15-2004, 07:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm a product of both private and public school education (private in elementary, public in secondary). That being said, I'm interested in any new ideas to help the state of education in this country. Have they field-tested voucher programs in several demographically distinct states? If so, are the results conclusive at all? I don't know the answer, aside from my instinct that funding public schools even less will not make them better.
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Old 01-15-2004, 07:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Somewhere I read the average total amount spent per student is 7500ish a year.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo

I have a nephew with autism. He gets assistance at school, and while he is in a normal public school he does have a teachers aid with him. Making schools private would do nothing to prevent this sort of program. Students with such problems would have a larger voucher (as the govt spends more on them now as it is) to cover such costs. Problem solved.
Do you think that $7500 covers your nephew's teacher's aid, and all the extra things he needs at school?
public education has to foot that all, that's why that $7500 is a meaningless, bureaucratic number, it's not that simple.

And who's to say the private school his folks may want to send him to will even want to deal with his disability? the public schools have to deal with students such as he and I, and foot the costs for it, the private school doesn't.
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Old 01-15-2004, 07:46 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mystmarimatt
Do you think that $7500 covers your nephew's teacher's aid, and all the extra things he needs at school?
public education has to foot that all, that's why that $7500 is a meaningless, bureaucratic number, it's not that simple.

And who's to say the private school his folks may want to send him to will even want to deal with his disability? the public schools have to deal with students such as he and I, and foot the costs for it, the private school doesn't.
Which part of 'they get a bigger voucher' didn't you get?

Lets say it costs 30k for him a year, and I have NO idea. Thats money spent, and if its spent at a private school so what?

Also what you people don't understand is that the government can regulate a private school far better then a public one. The public schools even beyond the problem of the pathetic teachers unions are being monitored by the same government that creates them. They WANT the schools to look good on paper, and I don't think you need to dig to deep to find case of schools scores being inflated or cheating being allowed to do better on tests.

The government can still mandate that schools have programs for autistic children, can still have test scores, can still have inspectors, and unlike a government school, if a private school fails they can get closed, and parents can move their children.
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Old 01-15-2004, 08:41 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Now I asked how she passed the test, she said the teachers gave them the answers ahead of time. THANKS PUBLIC SCHOOLS another informed voter created.

If you think private schools will do worse then the crap I've seen, you are not a very bright man.
The issue with public schools is that they have their funding cut if they are unable to meet certain standards. With the funding cut, they can't possibly hope to get themselves up to par for the next accredidation evaluation.
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Old 01-15-2004, 08:56 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
The issue with public schools is that they have their funding cut if they are unable to meet certain standards. With the funding cut, they can't possibly hope to get themselves up to par for the next accredidation evaluation.
Not everything is solved by more money. Per student private schools don't cost more yet do better. Do you 'reward' a school with more money when they do poorly? When two equally funded schools have vastly divergent test scores who should get more funds? Do you motivate people by rewarding their failure (the teachers, and administrators?). The system is set up to fail.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Not everything is solved by more money. Per student private schools don't cost more yet do better. Do you 'reward' a school with more money when they do poorly? When two equally funded schools have vastly divergent test scores who should get more funds? Do you motivate people by rewarding their failure (the teachers, and administrators?). The system is set up to fail.
1. Everything can be solved with more money, the question is always how much more and how quickly. If we cut the entire US defense budget and put it all into AIDS/HIV research, we would have a vaccine/cure in short order in much the same way, we would have the best schools in the world if we took a quarter of the same defense budget and gave it to schools.

2. It seems like you are advocating a total voucher, in essence children will apply to the best schools because money will not be an issue. This application process will create ultra-elite schools, akin to MIT or Yale, which will be detrimental to the learning of people who go to those schools. These schools will also attract the best teachers and the system of tracking, with its well proven problems, will be magnified by several orders.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:15 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally posted by nanofever
1. Everything can be solved with more money...
Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

Please explain how more money will cure parents who don't give a damn.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
2. It seems like you are advocating a total voucher, in essence children will apply to the best schools because money will not be an issue. This application process will create ultra-elite schools, akin to MIT or Yale, which will be detrimental to the learning of people who go to those schools.


Please explain.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:48 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Lebell
Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

Please explain how more money will cure parents who don't give a damn.
Your child does well in school/standardized tests and you get money back or a tax cut. They still won't be intrinsincly motivated but they will be extrinsincly motivated.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:53 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Ustwo


Please explain.
It has always been my belief that public schools teach about society at least as much as academics. If you group all of the very smart / gifted people together in the best schools they lose intangable education. By putting them in a homogenized group, they lose-out on the opprotunities to learn the differences of society which are apparent in public schools.

While the tangable education may be improved by elite schools, the intangable skills that are learned by a diverse public school are lost.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:57 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally posted by nanofever
Your child does well in school/standardized tests and you get money back or a tax cut. They still won't be intrinsincly motivated but they will be extrinsincly motivated.

I don't think the people we are talking about can operate at this level of abstraction.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think so.

Our education problem is a cultural one as much as a monetary one.
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Old 01-15-2004, 10:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Ill agree that our education problem lies inherently in society - the fact is, some people just don't give a shit and just want to get by to get by.

As having seen all sides of this, I can safely say that the school system problem in America isn't simply one on vouchers, public, or private schools - it lies far deeper inside the psychology of all Americans.
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Old 01-15-2004, 11:42 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Good thread, but I dont think anyone has posted an obvious reason vouchers will not work.

A big draw for private schools is their exclusivity. You pay money so your kids dont have to go to school with all the common folk. If we give out vouchers its not like the private schools will magically open thier doors for everyone, they will increase the price for the exact amount that the vouchers are for , wiether it be $1,000 or $10,000.

So in turn all you would really be doing is taking money away from the public shools and giving it to the privates.
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Old 01-16-2004, 04:22 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Good point 89transam. It's just like every time the government increases the amount of federal aid you can apply for college, the colleges jack their tuition up by that same amount.

These schools will do the same thing. Maybe, the government can start giving out federal secondary school student loans so parents can go into deep debt earlier so they can afford even less to send their kids to a good college!

I think nanofevers point needs highlighting. Private schools divide up society. The K-12 years are the formative years of a persons life. They learn their social skills as much as educational values there. When you divide up to get a "better crop of kids" you miss out on a segment of society. You miss out on the true ethnic makeup of this country and you create ignorance in how the world works. Right now private schools only educate a fraction of our kids. But if you implement this through the whole nation, I think we will start seeing some regression.
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Old 01-16-2004, 07:53 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 89transam
Good thread, but I dont think anyone has posted an obvious reason vouchers will not work.

A big draw for private schools is their exclusivity. You pay money so your kids dont have to go to school with all the common folk. If we give out vouchers its not like the private schools will magically open thier doors for everyone, they will increase the price for the exact amount that the vouchers are for , wiether it be $1,000 or $10,000.

So in turn all you would really be doing is taking money away from the public shools and giving it to the privates.
For the 'exclusive' schools yea they would, but thats not an issue. First 'voucher' money isn't like a pile of cash, it would be pretty easy to mandate to schools that taking a voucher means you can't charge extra, problem sloved. You would also see new private schools created by this as well. The government does a horrible job of regulating itself, there is no accountability except to the voters, which they count on not paying attention.
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:10 AM   #36 (permalink)
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If they can't charge extra they increase class sizes, increase teacher to student ratio, decrease turnaround for textbooks, decrease library funding... etc. Businesses always find ways to maximize profits.
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Old 01-16-2004, 01:24 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
If they can't charge extra they increase class sizes, increase teacher to student ratio, decrease turnaround for textbooks, decrease library funding...
Hmmm...this sounds strangely familiar...
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Old 01-16-2004, 01:43 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
If they can't charge extra they increase class sizes, increase teacher to student ratio, decrease turnaround for textbooks, decrease library funding... etc. Businesses always find ways to maximize profits.
Ummmm how do you come to this logic?

Currently private schools charge about the same amount the state pays per student. Why would vouchers turn a private school into the mess of a government school? (which is exactly what you described).
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Old 01-16-2004, 03:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Ustwo, yes that would solve that problem. I dunno, after re reading this thread there are alot of good points in favor. If all it did was "de-regulate" education and give consumers a choice based on quality alone vouchers would be great. But, if somehow schools could choose who they accept or if there were stipulations for admission I think that would be very bad,basically the situstion nanofever brought up.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

Please explain how more money will cure parents who don't give a damn.
I would say that this is the real issue though. Schools can only do so much in thier 6 hours a day. And what about the 5 years of a kids life before they even enter school? If those 5 years are spent neglected and parked in front of a TV they will be playing catch up for years no matter how much time or money is invested into them by the school . I think insted of vouchers we should give parents extra money if thier kids are at a certain level when they enter kindergarden.
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Old 01-17-2004, 12:56 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
First 'voucher' money isn't like a pile of cash, it would be pretty easy to mandate to schools that taking a voucher means you can't charge extra, problem sloved.
LOL, how do you justify regulating a private school's tuition rate?
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