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Old 01-19-2004, 08:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Today

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- MLK, Jr

King's position on non-violence changed over time. He originally felt it was unrealistic in some situations. However, travel to India and study of Ghandi's work showed him how non-violence could work in social conflict.
"Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were only effective in individual relationships. The 'turn the other cheek' philosophy and 'love your enemies' philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals were in conflict with other individuals. When racial groups and nations were in conflict a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi, I saw how utterly mistaken I was."

Here is a man who was beaten, jailed, opressed. He fought every day of his life, and yet he still managed to win without violence. He is accorded more respect than most in our nation's history. Three men's birthday's are celebrated as national holidays: Washington/Lincoln on President's day, and MLK. The man's legacy is inarguable. He knew how to achieve victory without force of arms. I submit that those of us who cannot are simply not as brave, as virtuous, as brilliant as that man.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Getting shot helped too.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Ustwo, I'm sure you're just being flip, but it's a little insulting to everything MLK accomplished to insinuate that he's remembered well mostly because he was assassinated. You have a point that the manner of his death is one of the things that makes his legacy memorable, but it's not just that he was shot, it's that he died essentially because of his vision of equality and justice for all people.
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Old 01-19-2004, 12:55 PM   #4 (permalink)
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In one of life's greater ironies, up until 2001 Virginians celebrated Martin Luther King, Jr along with Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee on the same day.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Whats wrong with that? Robert E. Lee was one of America's most noble and Charismatic leaders. Granted he may have been ignorant in some of his views, he was for abolition. And as far as the war went for him, it was never about slavery, he could just never turn his back on Virginia, that's courage.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Getting shot helped too.
That's sadly true. I have a lot of respect for Martin Luther King Jr.; his letters from Birmingham Jail have had a real effect on me and my thinking about life. With that said, we live in a culture that pays attentions to martyrs. Socrates and Jesus leading the way... at least MLK's message was a positive one and his efforts have been carried on towards improving society.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Getting shot helped too.
That was so unnecessary.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Whats wrong with that? Robert E. Lee was one of America's most noble and Charismatic leaders. Granted he may have been ignorant in some of his views, he was for abolition. And as far as the war went for him, it was never about slavery, he could just never turn his back on Virginia, that's courage.
Sorry, no- if anything he was one of Virginia's most noble and charismatic leaders. But the second he put Virginia before America, he became a traitor.

Sorry for threadjacking, that's all I will say on this thread.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Whats wrong with that? Robert E. Lee was one of America's most noble and Charismatic leaders. Granted he may have been ignorant in some of his views, he was for abolition. And as far as the war went for him, it was never about slavery, he could just never turn his back on Virginia, that's courage.
Crap!! Quick...someone check to make sure that the earth is still spinning on its' axis.

I agree with Mojo_PeiPei!!

Most people assume that if the man wore gray, then he was automatically proslavery. When, in fact, the case was quite the opposite. It took tremedous courage to turn down Lincoln's offer of command over the union forces, because he couldn't raise his sword against his native Virginia.

/threadjack
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
In one of life's greater ironies, up until 2001 Virginians celebrated Martin Luther King, Jr along with Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee on the same day.
A friend of mine in Missouri said they still do there. Its MLK/REL day.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Getting shot helped too.
It's rather simplified, if not a bit brutal, but I have to admit, as much as I hate to, that Ustwo has a point. Martin Luther King Jr's death, and the ironic way in which it was brought about, took his message much further than the man ever could have.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The man's legacy is inarguable. He knew how to achieve victory without force of arms. I submit that those of us who cannot are simply not as brave, as virtuous, as brilliant as that man.
I don't know if you've given it much thought, but "enlightenment principles" such as Ghandi's non-violent protest only work if your adversary is a reasonable, moral entity. That's why it worked with Britain, and that's why it worked in the U.S.

Dealing with a brutal self-serving tyrant in that manner will achieve nothing other than your own expeditious execution.

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Last edited by madp; 01-19-2004 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 01-19-2004, 02:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hiredgun
That was so unnecessary.
Politically it is necessary.

If MLK wasn't shot but instead died of a heart attack 10 years later, we wouldn't be celebrating his birthday today. It seems it takes a death, at the height of your popularity, for your cause to raise you to a great status.

Kennedy wasn't that great a president, but he became a symbol after his assassination.

MLK had his problems too, but again, with his death the man became unimportant to the message.

A lot of politics is the manipulation of emotions and ideas, sometimes purposefully sometimes coincidentally, but you need to be aware of it.
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Old 01-19-2004, 03:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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There is much truth in that. King was forgiven his human shortcomings (such as allegedly cheating on his wife and plagiarizing his doctoral dissertation) because he was assassinated, and thus came to symbolize the civil rights movement.

I like the way Dr. King operated, and I think he was and is an important part of our history.

However, to diefy him in such a manner as the original poster is way over the top imho.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You know, madp, you can use my name. You won't get cooties or anything.
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Old 01-19-2004, 10:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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What previous posters said about King and being shot is true, like it or not.

I'm sure that King would be remembered as a great man today if he hadn't died, but I'm also equally sure there wouldn't be an MLK holiday.

Why?

Because he got a pass on the allegations against him by being murdered.

The same phenonemon is seen with JFK.


So it isn't racism to state it, its just an astute observation on human psychology.
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:24 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Lebell
So it isn't racism to state it, its just an astute observation on human psychology.
You're so humble I'm suprised this post is on the same page as yours.
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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How did MLK win, by making America no longer a racist country?
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Old 01-20-2004, 01:16 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
You're so humble I'm suprised this post is on the same page as yours.
Erm,

I see why you said what you said, but I'm not claiming to be the first one to note this phenonemon.
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Old 01-20-2004, 07:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Just bustin' your chops, chief. Just bustin' your chops.
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