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Old 01-24-2004, 07:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Taxing the Church?

Here's a question for you all. What do you think about the fact that the church pays no taxes? I personally think it's absurd, but this comes from someone who is an atheist. Any thoughts?
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Given that a large part of the money brought in by any church is earmarked for humanitarian programs, taxing it would just take money away from the people who need it.

For example, the Sally Ann brought in somewhere in the order of 2.5 billion last year I think and you can bet that a *minimum* of 50% of that went to helping other people.

Taxing on the remaining amount may seem like a good idea, but that too would take money away from humanitarian aid.
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The founders obviously thought that religion played a very important (and presumably positive) role in many people's lives and that churches, as agencies engaged in commerce that cannot be measured in dollars, should not be taxed.

This I agree with.
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It's not just the church, it's all "Non-Profit" organizations in the US.
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cj2112
It's not just the church, it's all "Non-Profit" organizations in the US.
Speaking of which, I'm still amazed that Scientology gets to claim tax-exempt status when they are clearly a profit organization.
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
Speaking of which, I'm still amazed that Scientology gets to claim tax-exempt status when they are clearly a profit organization.
Another thread, but I totally agree.

That group is nuts.
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Old 01-24-2004, 08:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Yes, some non-profits are .. questionable at best. Software development groups like X.org shouldn't be tax exempt.
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think it's absurd to not tax churches.
Of course, I also believe they are titanic wastes of human effort to begin with and represent, at best, misguided attempts at harnessing the human spirit and human resources.
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Churches get a lot of non-monitary donations.

Should we tax the church for food it gets during a food drive?
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think your types are misguided attempts AT BEST to harnessing the best of human resources ARTelevision. Look at Mother FUCKin' Theresea, so looked out for the most poor of the fuckin' poor and held down shop, she was a true soldier, what have the "athesists' done for the poorist of the poor, have the athesists held the hand of the lonely?.... No, your tyoe are the limo cab liberal, sure you may show up at the soup kitchen on thanksgiving on christmas, but who is holding down shop for the rest of the year... thats right the religious... those radical christians or crazy jews/ Arabs.. we are there year round donating and lending a hand. Where are you guys, where are your charities?
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The Church used to tax us, which seems pretty ironic now. But there was a time when the political machine revolved around them, and they had to have the extra money to keep things moving. It may not always have been spent honestly, or spent at all, but corruption and greed is eventually endemic to all governing bodies, to a certain degree.

Anyway, taxing the church wouldn't make much sense, since so much of their money goes towards humanitarian purposes and they don't operate for a profit, only to provide spiritual guidance and things like soup kitchens, schooling, and space for things like reading groups, musical performances...In many places, the church is still the center of town, socially.
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Churches aren't taxed because they are non-profits. They provide services to the community.

I draw the line at tax exempt status. I don't support "faith based initiatives" or anything like that.

MojoPeiPei - Atheists don't really have a "church" that engages in charitable activities, however, you'd be hard pressed to prove that athiests exhibit lower participation in activities that benefit the community (charities, community service, and the like) than do religious folk. There is no "Motherfucking Teresa" of atheism, but then again, most atheists don't advertise their beliefs. Moreover, plenty of harm has been done in the name of religion. There haven't been any atheistic wars.

That's a whole other can of worms, but I couldn't let you get away with that ignorant and dishonest assertion.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:00 AM   #14 (permalink)
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What ignorant and dishonest can of worms? Name one atheist that has done has much as a mother theresa or PJP II, or saved as many lives as Pius. Name one atheist charity that feeds the the hungry or clothes the naked like a mary Jo copeland like my native minnesota. What has atheism done to help your fellow man like that of the Catholic Church, the Christian religion, the Islamic religion or the Jews... when have the secular Atheiests ever done anything that those of the Judeo-Chrisitian-Islamic influence done anything to help their fellow man???? There have never been atheist wars??? Maybe not, but I do remember Stalin sending catholics and other brave souls not willing to forsake their beliefs to the gulags, I do remember Saddam imprisoning and crushing the beliefs of Shiites because it challeneged his power... you better believe more sin lies on those of the secular and atheist tradition in this century, our "enlightened" century, then those of the Judeo-Christian denomination.


Further more you may resent the Church for sins of the past, but my humble and most honorable leader PJP II has asked for forgiveness of the sins of the past and if you are not "man" enough to forgive the church that beef rests on you. Outside of that, where would this world be without the church??? Thats right you would probably be Muslim and speaking some form of spanish right now had it not been for those "ignorant christians" ,bible thumping ignoramices, those cruel and savage muslims who were bent on world domination several hundred years ago would rule this sindig... this world would be a different place and you would not have a place such as the TFP to vent you frustrations against the "church". The fact remains the church perserved western civ to the extent that is now, NOT Atheism, Not Islam, Not Thaoism, Not the Hindu's and Not the Buddist's. If you can't get over some petty stupid bullshit wrongs on past generations, then there is no helping you. May the god that governs' man, may the god that gives us our god given rights preserve youin peace and prosperity.

Was it atheism that inspired our founding fathers??? Oh no thats right it was the god that governs man. Not the Judeo-Christian God, but the God of nature and man. Pick him as you will, he is out there, and Judgement is his, and may he have mercy on YOUR soul. Good fight and good night.

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Quote:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ......
We've fucked up (in the church), we're big enough to admit and ask for forgiveness, are you big enough to forgive us???I'm crunked up, that is all thanks.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Name one atheist that has done has much as a mother theresa or PJP II, or saved as many lives as Pius. Name one atheist charity that feeds the the hungry or clothes the naked like a mary Jo copeland like my native minnesota. What has atheism done to help your fellow man like that of the Catholic Church, the Christian religion, the Islamic religion or the Jews... when have the secular Atheiests ever done anything that those of the Judeo-Chrisitian-Islamic influence done anything to help their fellow man????


<a href="http://www.amnesty.org/">Amnesty International</a>

<A href="http://www.wfp.org/index.html">The World Food Program</a>

<a href="http://www.msf.org/about/index.cfm">Médecins Sans Frontières</a>

<a href="http://www.care.org/">CARE</a>

<a href="http://www.oxfam.org.uk/index.htm">Oxfam</a>

<a href="http://www.icrc.org/">International Committee of the Red Cross</a>
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:10 AM   #16 (permalink)
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IOCC - International Orthodox Christian Charities
www.iocc.org/

CHRISTIAN SERVICE CHARITIES : : : : : Christian Service Charities ...
www.csoa.org

Christian Charities/USA
www.ccusa.org

Generous Giving
www.generousgiving.org

Christian Children's Fund
www.christianchildrensfund.org

Habitat Christian Charity
https://www.habitat.org/donation/

http://www.takingitglobal.org/opps/o...ype&orgtype=18

Click on the link above ^^^^^ for all th sites below

ACT International
(Geneva 2, Switzerland)
African Child Foundation
(Kampala, Uganda)
Answerway
(Pasadena, CA, United States)
Apostolic Youth Network
(United States)
Association Chritiene des Eleves et Etudiantes Protestants de Cote D'Ivoire (ACEEPCI)
(Côte d'Ivoire)
Auburn Seminary
(New York, New York, United States)
Bahá'i International Community
(New York, NY, United States)
Brahma Kumaris
(India)
CanadaHelps.org
(Toronto, Ontario, Canada)
Canadian Catholic Students Association/Canadian Catholic Campus Ministry
(New Brunswick, New Brunswick, Canada)
Canadian Youth Network
(Keswick, Ontario, Canada)
Central Board of Nahdlatul Ulama (PBNU)
(Jakarta, DKI Jakarta, Indonesia)
Christian Children's Fund of Canada
(Scarborough, Ontario, Canada)
Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions
(Chicago, Illinois, United States)
CROSSROADS Youth Ministries
(Edmore, Michigan, United States)
Crusade In Uganda
(kampa, kampala, Uganda)
Dramatic Youth
(Hannibal, Missouri, United States)
Eckankar (ECK) youth
(Minneapolis, MN, United States)
Ecumenical Church Loan Fund (ECLOF)
(Geneva 2, Switzerland)
EGAD! Ideas
(Canada)
Emmanuel The Church of God
(Napier, New Zealand)
European Bahá'i Youth Council (EBYC)
(London, England, United Kingdom)
Foundation for Spiritual Democracy
(San Francisco, California, United States)
Friends of Uganda Worldwide
(Belgrave, Victoria, Australia)
Frontier Youth Trust

Get-Real Ministries
(Clarinda, Iowa, United States)
Glenhaven Youth Ranch
(Plainview, Arizona, United States)
Global Fellowship
(Helensburgh, Scotland)
Global Network of Religions for Children(GNRC)
(United States)
Ground Zero Youth Ministry
(New London, Pennsylvania, United States)
Hephzibah Ministries Worldwide (HMW)
(Kaduna, Kaduna, Nigeria)
Hindu Students Council
(United States)
Holma College of Holistic Studies
(Höör, Sweden)
Humanity's Team para Argentina
(Cdad. de Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina)
ImpacTauranga
(Tauranga, New Zealand)
Interfaith Youth Core
(Chicago, IL, United States)
Internatinal Christian Centre For Missions
(Benin City, Edo Sate, Nigeria)
International Association for Religious Freedom
(Oxford, United Kingdom)
International Christian Youth Exchange (India)
(Frazer Town, Bangalore, India)
International Christian Youth Exchange (Norway)
(Olso, Norway)
International Council of Christians and Jews
(Heppenheim, Germany)
International Federation of Catholic Parochial Youth Movements
(Antwerp, Belgium)
International Interfaith Centre
(Oxford, United Kingdom)
International Kalachakra Network (IKN)
(A-8020 Graz, Austria)
International Movement of Catholic Agricultural and Rural Youth (MIJARC)
(Brussels, Belgium)
International Movement of Catholic Students
(Bruxelles, Belgium)
International Religious for Peace
(Kinshasa, Congo, Democratic Republic of)
International Sri Satya Sai Organization
(India)
ISKCON Youth Ministry
(Alachua, FL, United States)
Ismaili Youth

Kaleidoskop - Holistic Living Centre for SEE
(Skopje, Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of)
Life Teen
(Mesa, Arizona, United States)
Lutheran Volunteer Corps
(Washington, DC, District of Columbia, United States)
Mennonite World Conference (MWC)
(Strasbourg, France)
Mercy Ships International
(Garden Valley, Texas, United States)
Ministry of Youth & Sports
(Rarotonga, Cook Islands)
Ministry of Youth & Sports
(Rarotonga, Cook Islands)
Ministry of Youth & Sports
(Rarotonga, Cook Islands)
Nanzan Institute for Religion & Culture
(Shôwa-ku, Nagoya, Japan)
National Network of Youth Ministries
(San Diego, California, United States)
New York City Task Force for the Gandhi-King Season for Nonviolence
(New York, NY, United States)
New York Open Center
(New York, New York, United States)
Northern Nigerian Frontier Mission (NNFM)
(Jos Nigeria, Nigeria)
Orphanos Foundation
(Bartlett, Tennessee, United States)
Overcomers' Movement-Ghana
(ACCRA, ABEKA, Ghana)
Pastoral da Juventude do Brasil
(Brazil)
Presbyterian Youth of America
(Atlanta, Georgia, United States)
Purple Consulting
(New Bombay, India)
Reach Out Youth Solutions
(Norcross, Georgia, United States)
Sambayanan Online
(Seoul, Korea, Republic of (South))
Sikh Network
(United States)
Soka Gakkai International
(Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo, Japan)
Students International
(Visalia, California, United States)
SYNDESMOS, the World Fellowship of Orthodox Youth
(Athens, Greece)
Teen Mania Ministries

Teens Missions International
(Merritt Island, Florida, United States)
TeensWeb
(Geldern, Germany)
Temporal Blessings Ministries
(Round Lake Beach, Illinois, United States)
The Abraham Fund
(New York, New York, United States)
The First Church of Christ, Scientist
(Boston, MA, United States)
The Section for the Spiritual Striving of Youth
(Dornach, Switzerland)
The St. Vincent Pallotti Center
(Washington, District of Columbia, United States)
The Unification Church of Reverend Sun Myung Moon
(Seoul, Korea, Republic of (South))
The World Congress of Faiths (WCF)
(Oxford,, Oxford,, United Kingdom)
The World Council of Churches
(Geneva 2, Switzerland)
The World Student Christian Federation
(Nairobi, Kenya)
The Youth Council
(Ebute-Metta,, Lagos, Nigeria)
TruePath
(Escondido, California, United States)
United Community Action Network
(Lancaster, California, United States)
WhiteClouds
(India)
Wings of Hope
(Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina)
WINMENA
(Ariana, Tunisia)
Word of Life Ministries - Ghana
(Wotton Under Edge, South Gloucestershire, United Kingdom)
World Assembly Youth
(Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia)
World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth
(Bangkok, Thailand)
World Student Christian Federation (WSCF) Europe Office
(Amsterdam, Netherlands)
World Union of Jewish Students
(Jerusalem, Israel)
World Vision
(Federal Way, Washington, United States)
World Youth Day
(Rome, Italy)
World Zoroastrian Organization (WZO)
Young Jains of America
(United States)
Young Life
(Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States)
Young Men Christian Association (YMCA) Gabrovo
(Gabrovo, Bulgaria)
Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) - Tanzania
(Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania, United Republic of)
Youth for Christ
(United States)
Youth Pilgrimage NGO
(Yerevan, Armenia)
Youth With a Mission (YWAM) International
(Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States)
YouthSENTral

HIHIHI go religion!!!! those came from one site and one search "christian charities". I didn't care to siffer through all the Jewish and Islamic sites....
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:46 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Charitable institutions should not pay tax in my opinion
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
What ignorant and dishonest can of worms? Name one atheist that has done has much as a mother theresa or PJP II, or saved as many lives as Pius. Name one atheist charity that feeds the the hungry or clothes the naked like a mary Jo copeland like my native minnesota. What has atheism done to help your fellow man like that of the Catholic Church, the Christian religion, the Islamic religion or the Jews... when have the secular Atheiests ever done anything that those of the Judeo-Chrisitian-Islamic influence done anything to help their fellow man???? There have never been atheist wars??? Maybe not, but I do remember Stalin sending catholics and other brave souls not willing to forsake their beliefs to the gulags, I do remember Saddam imprisoning and crushing the beliefs of Shiites because it challeneged his power... you better believe more sin lies on those of the secular and atheist tradition in this century, our "enlightened" century, then those of the Judeo-Christian denomination.


Further more you may resent the Church for sins of the past, but my humble and most honorable leader PJP II has asked for forgiveness of the sins of the past and if you are not "man" enough to forgive the church that beef rests on you. Outside of that, where would this world be without the church??? Thats right you would probably be Muslim and speaking some form of spanish right now had it not been for those "ignorant christians" ,bible thumping ignoramices, those cruel and savage muslims who were bent on world domination several hundred years ago would rule this sindig... this world would be a different place and you would not have a place such as the TFP to vent you frustrations against the "church". The fact remains the church perserved western civ to the extent that is now, NOT Atheism, Not Islam, Not Thaoism, Not the Hindu's and Not the Buddist's. If you can't get over some petty stupid bullshit wrongs on past generations, then there is no helping you. May the god that governs' man, may the god that gives us our god given rights preserve youin peace and prosperity.

Was it atheism that inspired our founding fathers??? Oh no thats right it was the god that governs man. Not the Judeo-Christian God, but the God of nature and man. Pick him as you will, he is out there, and Judgement is his, and may he have mercy on YOUR soul. Good fight and good night.

Sir Mojo of Pei Pei...

We've fucked up (in the church), we're big enough to admit and ask for forgiveness, are you big enough to forgive us???I'm crunked up, that is all thanks.
Okay thats about enough o' the bull that you are spinning....

The deaths caused by Stalin were in the name of statism just because Stalin was a sociopath has nothing to do with his beliefs. Furthermore, Stalin did take Russia from a back-water third world country to a country that can do toe-to-toe with the united states and he did this in less than 30 years.

On Saddam you said "I do remember Saddam imprisoning and crushing the beliefs of Shiites because it challeneged his power..." Gee a dictator killing people who challenge his rule, how very, very predictiable. This one is again a product of politics and statism.

Your argument on the Catholic Church's history is they did bad things but prevented the spread of Islam. Kind of like how Stalin did bad things but built his country into a superpower.

"Further more you may resent the Church for sins of the past, but my humble and most honorable leader PJP II has asked for forgiveness of the sins of the past and if you are not "man" enough to forgive the church that beef rests on you"
You fail to see that the Church then and the Church now are the same, the Catholic Church is a power structure and it tries to get people to live the way it wants them to live. The CC still has a misguided worldview because that worldview is based on a static 1900/1700 (Nicea) year old book. The beliefs against birth control is only their so that more Catholics are born and thus the Vatican power structure is propped-up. The lies (Condoms can't stop AIDS, ect) coming out of the Vatican hurt all people and are solely propigated to further the Catholic Churches agenda. The reason I can't forgive the Catholic Church is the acts have changed but the mindset is clearly the same.

Your aguments against Muslims are absurd since Christians and Jews were taxed a bit and then left alone in Muslim society. All-non Christians were killed in a LOT of Christian societies, hell a lot of the time it was Christians killing Christians (Spanish inqusition, France's religious wars.) Nevermind that Muslim society PRESERVED western (Greek/Roman) society when Europe into the Dark Ages till the Renissance/Enlightenment.

"Was it atheism that inspired our founding fathers??? Oh no thats right it was the god that governs man. Not the Judeo-Christian God, but the God of nature and man. Pick him as you will, he is out there, and Judgement is his, and may he have mercy on YOUR soul. Good fight and good night."
Yeah, um... a lot of the founders were Diests. Which means infact he ISN'T out there, he left after creating the world. That also means no judgement and no soul. Sorry if you believed that Diest = Christian but it doesn't.

So in closing, please leave the bullshit at the door because some people on the forum have pretty good detectors.
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm split on this.

Let's first lay aside the relative merits of the good and the bad done by the Catholic church and Islam in general, and the absurdity that is Scientology and focus on the principle: Should religious organizations be taxed.

On the one hand, these are charitable organizations that, ideally, profit only insofar as is necessary to administer and market their humanitarian message. That looks suspect to me when I write it out that way, since the humanitarian aims of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and any other religious establishments (hereafter "churches") are at the best only part of their message and are at worst merely marketing. Would it be too much then to suggest that the charitable arm of a church should be separately incorporated as a legal, secular non-profit institution and that funding transferred from the church to that charitable arm is beyond question exempt from taxation? To my mind, that is the fair way to do this, and the church itself should be taxed on the remainder, the property as well as the non-charitable income.

The idea of tax-exemption for churches does not grow from any high minded endorsement of their humanitarian efforts, but from the medieval reality that the Catholic church was at one time one of the Two biggest players in any state: a parallell power to the king. As such, it was a shadow government and exempt from taxation as a matter of politics, not ideaology.

So I guess I have to come down on the side of taxation. Now, here is the compromise I would be willing to make: Recognizing that, even with the most generous outlook, some portion of the humanitarian/charitable activity of any church is intended as self-aggrandizement - PR and marketing and prosletyzation - it seems unreasonable to me to require that the legally separate charitable non-profit institution allied with that church not discriminate in their hiring against applicants who are not church members. However, recognizing that church sponsored charity is marketing as well a mercy, government grants to these charities should be at the very least competed with other charities, and most likely altogether banned. A middle ground here would be to allow the government to set aside some minority portion of social welfare funding that may be distributed to church charities if and only if they compete for these grants with the charities of significantly different churches - so Catholic Services would have to compete with, f'rinstance, Jewish and/or Muslim groups to gain any part of this grant funding, and if there were no competetive charities of other religions, then the grant would only be available to secular charities.

Edited for brevity, clarity, and incompetant grammer and typing.
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Location: USA
Very cogent there, Tophat665.
I like how you present it - rationally and pragmatically.
The way we do it now gives them a pass to pile up lots of Medieval treasure, loot, and generally line their larders with all sorts of material and monetary wealth.
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Old 01-25-2004, 11:12 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
[B]Okay thats about enough o' the bull that you are spinning....

The deaths caused by Stalin were in the name of statism just because Stalin was a sociopath has nothing to do with his beliefs. Furthermore, Stalin did take Russia from a back-water third world country to a country that can do toe-to-toe with the united states and he did this in less than 30 years.

On Saddam you said "I do remember Saddam imprisoning and crushing the beliefs of Shiites because it challeneged his power..." Gee a dictator killing people who challenge his rule, how very, very predictiable. This one is again a product of politics and statism.
So one thing I never got was this, perhaps you can help me out Nano... When the church put people to death they were just being corrupt and evil. *Note that these people that challenged their politic power* But when a secular atheist like Stalin targets people of particular religions and sends them to their deaths "its just a product of politics and statism".

Quote:
"Further more you may resent the Church for sins of the past, but my humble and most honorable leader PJP II has asked for forgiveness of the sins of the past and if you are not "man" enough to forgive the church that beef rests on you"
You fail to see that the Church then and the Church now are the same, the Catholic Church is a power structure and it tries to get people to live the way it wants them to live. The CC still has a misguided worldview because that worldview is based on a static 1900/1700 (Nicea) year old book. The beliefs against birth control is only their so that more Catholics are born and thus the Vatican power structure is propped-up. The lies (Condoms can't stop AIDS, ect) coming out of the Vatican hurt all people and are solely propigated to further the Catholic Churches agenda. The reason I can't forgive the Catholic Church is the acts have changed but the mindset is clearly the same.
Comments like "You fail to see that the Church then and the Church now are the same" just show your ignorance regarding the church. PJP II and Vatican II (which was done in 1960's, not 1700's) have done a great many things that brought the church into the modern century. However you feel just because the church holds its ground on morals and its beliefs, because it hasn't caved to the "moral progress" that is eating away at the moral fiber of our culture and society, they are stuck in past.

The whole Catholics only like birth control because its creates more catholics is a pretty weak comment, there may be some truth to it, but not much. I think its more an issue of those crazy catholics and their crazy beliefs value the sanctity of life. Having sex creates a human life, who'd a thunk?!?! Condoms can't stop aids is a lie? What if it breaks? Is not a cell of the Aids virus several hundred times smaller then the would be semi-permiable holes of the condom? Besides whats wrong with the churchs' message of abstinance, it is the true means of would be safe sex... even though there is a lack of said sex.

Bottom line people like you knock the church for the same reasons that you are bitching at them, their agenda doesn't fir yours.

Quote:
Your aguments against Muslims are absurd since Christians and Jews were taxed a bit and then left alone in Muslim society. All-non Christians were killed in a LOT of Christian societies, hell a lot of the time it was Christians killing Christians (Spanish inqusition, France's religious wars.) Nevermind that Muslim society PRESERVED western (Greek/Roman) society when Europe into the Dark Ages till the Renissance/Enlightenment.
Actually a big part of the preservation was due to catholic monks who kept writing and copied hundreds of years worth of literature. But I'm not going to argue history. All I ever said was that church fucked up in the past, we have asked for forgiveness now, but obviously you aren't man enough to acknowledge that and forgive them.

Also sorry if I am thread hijacking here, but I think my rant is relevant to the topic at hand.
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Old 01-25-2004, 11:30 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I have a problem with church's not paying municipal taxes. With the size of some of the churches around here, I resent the fact that I have to pay so much property taxes and they can built huge buildings, using loads of municipal recourses without a care for costs.
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Old 01-25-2004, 11:46 AM   #23 (permalink)
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the power to tax is the power to destroy (John Marshall). when non-profit orgs can be destroyed by using the IRS, we have lost a great freedom to associate for political/social change. it is a hateful thing to think that one's intellectual conclusions are infalliable enough to attempt the destruction of another's society.
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:35 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't think hate has anything to do with this discussion.
It is proceeding rationally where possible.
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:39 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Taxation is theft.

Period.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:06 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
So one thing I never got was this, perhaps you can help me out Nano... When the church put people to death they were just being corrupt and evil. *Note that these people that challenged their politic power* But when a secular atheist like Stalin targets people of particular religions and sends them to their deaths "its just a product of politics and statism".
I was pointing out that Stalin was doing what he did for political reasons, not religious. That makes the fact that Stalin was an Athiest pointless. I said Stalin was a sociopath, as evil and corrupt as Pope Alex VI.



Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
[B]Comments like "You fail to see that the Church then and the Church now are the same" just show your ignorance regarding the church. PJP II and Vatican II (which was done in 1960's, not 1700's) have done a great many things that brought the church into the modern century. However you feel just because the church holds its ground on morals and its beliefs, because it hasn't caved to the "moral progress" that is eating away at the moral fiber of our culture and society, they are stuck in past.
/B]
Congrads are in order when the church does moved into the 19th, inparticular the whole "galieo might have been right thing." I also applaud the Church for doing away with the "Index of prohibited books" in 1966. That almost puts them in the 20th century. The mindset of control still exists in the catholic church though and if you can't see it I feel bad for you.


Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Condoms can't stop aids is a lie? What if it breaks? Is not a cell of the Aids virus several hundred times smaller then the would be semi-permiable holes of the condom? Besides whats wrong with the churchs' message of abstinance, it is the true means of would be safe sex... even though there is a lack of said sex."
The Catholic Church is dead wrong on this issue. "On Friday, World Health Organization spokesperson Fadela Chaib criticized as "totally wrong" a top Vatican cardinal's claim that condoms do not protect against HIV." http://www.hivdent.org/publicp/inter/ppinCCAC102003.htm

Furthermore it is totally and completely irresponsible for the CC to spread this lie when millions in Africa are dieing of AIDS. Abstinance fails a LOT more often than condoms.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
All I ever said was that church fucked up in the past, we have asked for forgiveness now, but obviously you aren't man enough to acknowledge that and forgive them.
The AIDS/Condom thing just goes to prove the catholic church hasn't changed, it still lies to its congregation in hopes that they will do what it tells them. They can have my forgiveness when they stop the lies.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Taxation is theft.

Period.
Actually, property is theft. But let's stipulate that taxation is theft. Fine. Then execution is murder and incarceration is kidnapping.
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:18 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ARTelevision
when one word is no different from another very different word, we have lost our way.
No kidding...

Let's not forget that property exists because we all implicitly (at the least) agree to it. As well as our economy and the existence of money as currency. I think people tend to think they have a right to a lot of things that have been given to them by the system. Taxation is part of the economic system that we all benefit from. I personally don't like the distribution of who pays what percentage of their annual income, but to call taxation "theft" implies that the entire economic system shouldn't exist. How can you feasibly reject only part of the economic system that you agree to and benefit from?
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilbjammin
Let's not forget that property exists because we all implicitly (at the least) agree to it. As well as our economy and the existence of money as currency. I think people tend to think they have a right to a lot of things that have been given to them by the system. Taxation is part of the economic system that we all benefit from. I personally don't like the distribution of who pays what percentage of their annual income, but to call taxation "theft" implies that the entire economic system shouldn't exist. How can you feasibly reject only part of the economic system that you agree to and benefit from?
America survived quite well for over 100 years without an income tax. Why do you assume that it is as necessary as air for exsistance?
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Old 01-25-2004, 03:15 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Ustwo, I like the argument you're starting, not least because I am ambivalent about it and could easily argue either side. However, the point of this thread is not whether taxation is genearally wrong, but, whether, given that it happens, it should also happen to the church. Perhaps a different thread with "Taxation = Theft" as the subject is in order?
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Old 01-25-2004, 03:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
America survived quite well for over 100 years without an income tax. Why do you assume that it is as necessary as air for exsistance?
Because the way we survived without income tax was by selling land or using land grants in place of monetary payments. It's ot like the Fiscal Fairy just showed up with bags of money whenever they needed it. The government has to provide some services (disregarding for the time being the proposed scope of those services). The government has to pay for those services. What's your suggestion for how to pay for those services if not through taxation?
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Old 01-25-2004, 03:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
America survived quite well for over 100 years without an income tax. Why do you assume that it is as necessary as air for exsistance?
Well, you're asking a tangential question to the heart of what I'm saying. To reiterate what I previously said in simple terms: You do not have a fundamental right to the money or other property that you have because its existence hinges on the mutual agreement between the citizens of this country and our social contract that gives the government the tools to regulate and entrust citizens with property. Money is the ultimate example of this because it is a creation by the government, and absolutely regulated by the government.

As for your tangential question: Our social contract gives the government the ability to tax us, if you don't like it, then you should either get the majority of the nation to change the social contract or move to a different country.
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Old 01-25-2004, 03:45 PM   #34 (permalink)
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This thread is going all over the place.

I still don't think that anyone has shown that, as a whole, atheists are less virtuous than believers. Moreover, you can't compare atheism with theism in the way that you might compare islam and christianity. They're two different things. I happen to believe that secular morality is more genuine, as it is not tied to a benefit after death. Moreover, secular charities exist only to solve problems, and not to improve the image of a church. In addition, secular charities are free from the temptation to use charitible activities to spread a point of view. 12 step programs offered at churches to stop substance abuse participants to accept their religion. Although faith might work for some people, individuals have a right not to be preached to when they are mentally vulnerable, and secular programs have been shown to work.

I don't expect you to agree with me. As far as I'm concerned, your notion that religion makes people better isn't always true. Most atheists I know are very conscious of right and wrong. Perhaps the removal of dogmatism allows more clarity in the consideration of moral problems?
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Old 01-25-2004, 05:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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whoa there thread hijack

and don't turn this thread into your own personal crusade on whatever stance you hold while you attempt to flame others
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:16 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Zeld, we're all doing it. We have been doing it for quite a few posts now, and the only one complaining about it is you. Why don't you spend your time doing something constructive? You could seriously go to just about any thread here or in Tilted Philosophy and post the exact same thing you just said. We don't want to hear it. Nobody wants to hear it. I'm done ranting.
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scipio
Zeld, we're all doing it. We have been doing it for quite a few posts now, and the only one complaining about it is you. Why don't you spend your time doing something constructive? You could seriously go to just about any thread here or in Tilted Philosophy and post the exact same thing you just said. We don't want to hear it. Nobody wants to hear it. I'm done ranting.
I though that thread-jacking was a skill that was praised on the politics/philo board.
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I though that thread-jacking was a skill that was praised on the politics/philo board.
Politics and philosophy is all about tangential thinking (as frustrating as that can be)! It just shows how related everything is.
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:58 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
I though that thread-jacking was a skill that was praised on the politics/philo board.
ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!


I ought to lock this thread just for that!!!!
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:05 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
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ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!


I ought to lock this thread just for that!!!!
Alright, I will attempt to get back to the point. I'm functionally an atheist, and I don't see any reason for a church to pay taxes. As I understand it, churches aren't created as money-making operations. It is hard enough for some churches to keep up with rent and simple maintenance that taxes could realistically put a lot of churches either out of operation entirely, or turn churches to more capitalistic enterprises.
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