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Old 01-25-2004, 05:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The assault on sanity continues....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...schools25.html

Quote:
Underachievers' parents deny honor students

By Matt Gouras
The Associated Press

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NASHVILLE, Tenn. The school honor roll, a time-honored system for rewarding "A" students, has become an apparent source of embarrassment for some underachievers.

As a result, all Nashville schools have stopped posting honor rolls, and some are considering a ban on hanging good work in the hallways at the advice of school lawyers.

After a few parents complained their children might be ridiculed for not making the list, school-system lawyers warned that state privacy laws forbid releasing academic information, good or bad, without permission.

Some schools since have put a stop to academic pep rallies. Others think they may have to cancel spelling bees. And schools across the state may follow Nashville's lead.

The change has upset many parents who want their children recognized for hard work.

"This is as backward as it gets," said Miriam Mimms, who has a son at Meigs Magnet School and helps run the Parent Teacher Association. "There has to be a way to come back from the rigidity."

Most states follow federal student privacy guidelines, which allow the release of such things as honor rolls, Department of Education officials said.

"It's the first time I've heard of schools doing that," said Jim Bradshaw, department spokesman.

But Nashville school lawyers based their decision last month on a state privacy law dating to the 1970s a law not always followed because no one challenged the honor-roll status quo.

School officials are developing permission slips to give parents of the district's 69,000 students the option of having their children's work recognized. They hope to receive clearance before the next grading cycle.

Until then, principals will try to figure out what is acceptable.

Sandy Johnson, chief instructional officer for the Nashville schools, says the restrictions go "far beyond the honor role."

"It's for anything having to do with grades and attendance or anything normally reserved just for the student or parent," she said.
Yes success can not be honored or even mentioned as it might make some people feel bad.

Being on the honor roll was a motivation for me, and not making WAS an embarrassment but one that made me work harder. Yes now only sports can be used to judge ones position to their peers.
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Old 01-25-2004, 05:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes. As a former teacher, I see America's schools as anti-educational institutions. The reasons are many. This is one of them.
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Old 01-25-2004, 05:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah defenitely WTF is going on there !
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Old 01-25-2004, 06:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Not really that surprising i guess. The schools are just covering their asses y folowing the law as set forth by the tennesee legislature who was elected by the people of tennesee. I don't think we can be sure either way how this will effect the learning of these students. Besides, they should be more worried how colleges and employers look at their gpa's.
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Old 01-25-2004, 06:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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now thats just stupid


its nto like they are saying the grade of the students who do bad



this is that same bullshit line of thinking i got so sick of in highscool


o no i only got a a not an a plus
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Old 01-25-2004, 06:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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At my school we would've kicked your ass down the stairs for complaing about that. But on a more relevant note, god forbid someone create some standards which some may not meet and then feel bad about!
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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this is fucked up! What is their reasoning again? and not even the dreaded spelling bee? So um... Reinforcement... where is it? What is there to promote us to do good?

So again... the reasonsing part...
Quote:
After a few parents complained their children might be ridiculed for not making the list
MIGHT.... MIGHT?!?!?!!? How about you go and fucking study with your child then so you don't have to worry about it. I don't recall being made fun of when I made it, or when I didn't make it. If its such a concern, they can do something about it. Might be young for study groups, but not for tutors. This is utter bullshit.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think the idea is that maybe shame isn't the most productive motivational tool.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
I think the idea is that maybe shame isn't the most productive motivational tool.
Yes they ALL get gold stars!

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Old 01-25-2004, 07:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Funny. Back in my days in high school, kids on the honour were the ones that were shamed by those who weren't on it. Out of jealousy? I don't know.

Face it, people. No matter how any situation is changed, especially nowadays, there will always be some malcontents. Always.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Shame is an excellent motivator when used properly.

This is just asinine.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Yes they ALL get gold stars!

Yes, and i know plenty of kids who were really encouraged and inspired to learn by being put in the "brown" reading group.
I don't think it is really a big deal either way. I really doubt any of the students really care about this issue. The real issue is that, with no honor roll, how are parents going to show how competent they are as role models without their "proud parent of a so and so school honor student" bumper stickers?
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Shame is an excellent motivator when used properly.
I found shame and fear work even better. Sometimes people need a figurative kick in the ass.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Shame is an excellent motivator when used properly.

This is just asinine.

Quote:
I found shame and fear work even better. Sometimes people need a figurative kick in the ass.
Yes, i know plenty of high school students who only need more shame. Then they'll get their shit together. Some, however, don't respond well to such motivational tools. Look at how well shame worked for dylan klebold and eric harris. I realize that their reaction was extreme. A lot of kids may just give up on school entirely, thinking that they aren't worth it when all they really needed was a different motivation. Some depressed kids might just feel even more worthless with the help of a little shame. This isn't to say that an honor roll has that much effect on a student, just that shame isn't always the best way to make people develop self confidence and healthy relationships with their peers.

p.s. ustwo, how long were you sitting on that carebears image? How long were you waiting for the perfect instance of compassionate liberalism to show your keen wit?
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:44 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This reminds me of the no child can excell policy!
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
p.s. ustwo, how long were you sitting on that carebears image? How long were you waiting for the perfect instance of compassionate liberalism to show your keen wit?
About 10 seconds with a GIS search.

And as for it being 'compassionate liberalism' this has very little to do with liberalism, though I don't find it surprising that you would defend it.

The issue here to me is basically parents who are avoiding the obvious issue, and over litigation. I do think you will find a lot of liberals on the board unsupportive of this action.
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I guess i'm not really defending it. Just defending my statements from you and lebell. I don't think that it's a big deal either way. It is not going to ruin anything. The smart kids are still going to feel smarter than everybody else and the dumb kids are still going to feel dumber than everybody else. Why do you think it is a big deal that some parents are asking the schools in nashville conform to state law?

When i used the phrase "compassionate liberalism" i really was just trying to paint my position as how i thought you rould see it. Sorry i made this a liberal vs. conservative issue because it is not.
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
Yes, i know plenty of high school students who only need more shame. Then they'll get their shit together. Some, however, don't respond well to such motivational tools. Look at how well shame worked for dylan klebold and eric harris. I realize that their reaction was extreme. A lot of kids may just give up on school entirely, thinking that they aren't worth it when all they really needed was a different motivation. Some depressed kids might just feel even more worthless with the help of a little shame. This isn't to say that an honor roll has that much effect on a student, just that shame isn't always the best way to make people develop self confidence and healthy relationships with their peers.

p.s. ustwo, how long were you sitting on that carebears image? How long were you waiting for the perfect instance of compassionate liberalism to show your keen wit?

No. Kleibold and Harris had no shame.

And that was the problem.

And I did say "when properly used".


Have you never heard, "Have you no shame?"

The key is to tie shame to the bahavior that we want to discourage.

Like having poor study habits or mowing down your classmates in a hail of bullets.
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:04 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
School officials are developing permission slips to give parents of the district's 69,000 students the option of having their children's work recognized. They hope to receive clearance before the next grading cycle.
No worries. Just one extra bloody permission slip for mom or dad to scribble on as they throw the kids in the minivan. Closing this loophole might even pre-empt some silly future lawsuit.

Agree with Ustwo about sports stars getting more than their fair share of adulation though.
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
No. Kleibold and Harris had no shame.

And that was the problem.

And I did say "when properly used".


Have you never heard, "Have you no shame?"

The key is to tie shame to the bahavior that we want to discourage.

Like having poor study habits or mowing down your classmates in a hail of bullets.
kleibold and harris had the shame shamed out of them.

I think shame often becomes a teaching tool for someone who doesn't really know how to teach. If i am ashamed because i let myself or my loved ones down because i slacked off, that is fine. I'll learn my lesson.
But if i am ashamed because i believe that i am a moron who lacks value in society because despite the fact that i tried my hardest i wasn't able to get better than a C in most of my classes last quarter that is another thing entirely. Where is the instructive value in that shame?

Now i know you qualified your endorsement of shame by adding "when properly used", but do you really think we can rely on high schools to use shame properly?
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Old 01-26-2004, 05:02 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Perhaps 20 years from now I'll be on a stump declaring "As President, I promise to pass the 'STOP YOUR BITCHING, PUSSIES!' bill. Also, free ice cream for all."

Oh, and also. Anyone who made fun of me for being home schooled can reference themselves to the fact that public schools have sucked for the past 40 years, and continue to suck exponentially as time goes along.
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Old 01-26-2004, 05:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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What if I went to private school? Can I make fun of you for your homeschooling then?
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Old 01-26-2004, 05:11 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Phaenx get this passed and I'd vote for ya.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of Non Rights.

* ARTICLE I -- You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any form of wealth.

More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

* ARTICLE II -- You do not have the right to never be offended.

This country is based on freedom, and that means the freedom for everyone, not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots and probably always will be.

* ARTICLE III -- You do not have the right to be free from harm.

If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful. Do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

* ARTICLE IV -- You do not have the right to free food and housing.

Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generations of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

* ARTICLE V -- You do not have the right to free health care.

That would be nice but, from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in government run health care.

* ARTICLE VI -- You do not have the right to physically harm other people.

If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

* ARTICLE VII -- You do not have the right to the possessions of others.

If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen TV or a life of leisure.

* ARTICLE VIII -- You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience.

We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight, if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

* ARTICLE IX -- You don't have the right to a job.

All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

* ARTICLE X -- You do not have the right to happiness.

Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
kleibold and harris had the shame shamed out of them.

I think shame often becomes a teaching tool for someone who doesn't really know how to teach. If i am ashamed because i let myself or my loved ones down because i slacked off, that is fine. I'll learn my lesson.
But if i am ashamed because i believe that i am a moron who lacks value in society because despite the fact that i tried my hardest i wasn't able to get better than a C in most of my classes last quarter that is another thing entirely. Where is the instructive value in that shame?

Now i know you qualified your endorsement of shame by adding "when properly used", but do you really think we can rely on high schools to use shame properly?

I'd disagree with the first sentence, agree with the second paragraph and say that I never said the third.
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
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so we'll stop rewarding good student performance so the slackers and their parents can feel better. I'll admit those "my brat is on the honor roll" bumper stickers annoy the hell out of me, but that's still something to be proud of.

my advice to those who didn't make it on the honor roll: if you really care that much, why don't you TRY HARDER instead of crying about it!!!!

//sorry, I'm at school and it's not even 9am, I have NO sympathy for underachievers right now.
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:12 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
I'd disagree with the first sentence, agree with the second paragraph and say that I never said the third.
The reason you didn't say the third is because it is a question that i asked you. Do you trust educators to know when shame is an appropriate tool for your child's educational progress?

Quote:
* ARTICLE VIII -- You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience.
On an irrelevant sidenote, much like the quote this is quoted from, this seems like an interesting idea. Have you fowarded this to the president?
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:23 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
The reason you didn't say the third is because it is a question that i asked you. Do you trust educators to know when shame is an appropriate tool for your child's educational progress?

Shrug.

Do you trust educators to spend 6 or more hours with your children educating them and otherwise shaping their little minds?

Either you do or don't.
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:25 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
On an irrelevant sidenote, much like the quote this is quoted from, this seems like an interesting idea. Have you fowarded this to the president?
I thought it was for oil.
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
I thought it was for oil.
Nope, you're wrong. It was to liberate the iraqis. No, wait! It was because saddam was an imminent threat. No, wait, hold on! It was because saddam was a part of 9/11. Wait! "It" depends on whatever excuse was just exposed as subterfuge. The motivation for war is a four faced fella who shows you whatever face is convenient.


Quote:
Shrug.

Do you trust educators to spend 6 or more hours with your children educating them and otherwise shaping their little minds?

Either you do or don't.
Do you always answer questions with with questions?

To answer your question, i think i would trust the average teacher with my hypothetical child. That doesn't mean i want anybody shaming said hypothetical child.

Now, do you trust teachers to shame your child effectively? Also, do you trust educators to spend 6 or more hours with your children educating them and otherwise shaping their little minds?
More than a shrug would be nice.
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:43 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
Do you always answer questions with with questions?

To answer your question, i think i would trust the average teacher with my hypothetical child. That doesn't mean i want anybody shaming said hypothetical child.

Now, do you trust teachers to shame your child effectively? Also, do you trust educators to spend 6 or more hours with your children educating them and otherwise shaping their little minds?
More than a shrug would be nice.
Not as a rule, but it seemed appropriate in this case.

But in general, yes I do trust them, until they give me reason not to trust them.

The alternative is to second guess and monday arm chair quarter back every thing they do.
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:06 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Kids are very resilient. Everybody had a asshole teacher or two and we all survived into adulthood. I even make enough to cover the broadband bill. If a teacher ever shames one of mine into doing something better or letting something stupid be, more power to them. I wouldn't tolerate abusive teachers though, but I think a lot of people's skin are getting very thin, which is why article 2 from above really should be made law.
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Old 01-27-2004, 05:14 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I'm not the world's greatest when it comes to sport.

OK...I'll admit it, I suck at every concievable sport, always have, always will.

We had sport when I was in school, complete with such things as "the A-League Team", "competitions" and "Physical Education"(Gym).

Often the schools team for some sport or another would return home victorious and parade around the school displaying their trophies and medals, and later photographs would be hung in the hallway.

Perhaps I have the right to take offense at such things?
Perhaps this, combined with my athletic "underachivement", caused irrevocible damage to my precious self esteem?
Who the fuck can I sue?

With any luck, maybe I will be able to get rid of such awful things as "competitions" and "teams" from school altogether!

Or maybe i should just shut the fuck up whining, accept that sport isn't my thing/I am to lazy to put any effort in, and get on with things. Give the people who worked hard to achieve what they did (academic or athletic) the credit that they desrve, and then get on with life!
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Old 01-27-2004, 05:38 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I think we are paying too much attention to western media. I just heard on BBC world news that the issue revolves around a state law concerning parental permission to release student information of any kind. The honor role students can be on the list if the parents give concent for release. As usual media hype has changed the news to sensationalism.
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Old 01-27-2004, 06:41 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CSflim
I'm not the world's greatest when it comes to sport.

OK...I'll admit it, I suck at every concievable sport, always have, always will.

We had sport when I was in school, complete with such things as "the A-League Team", "competitions" and "Physical Education"(Gym).

Often the schools team for some sport or another would return home victorious and parade around the school displaying their trophies and medals, and later photographs would be hung in the hallway.

Perhaps I have the right to take offense at such things?
Perhaps this, combined with my athletic "underachivement", caused irrevocible damage to my precious self esteem?
Who the fuck can I sue?

With any luck, maybe I will be able to get rid of such awful things as "competitions" and "teams" from school altogether!

Or maybe i should just shut the fuck up whining, accept that sport isn't my thing/I am to lazy to put any effort in, and get on with things. Give the people who worked hard to achieve what they did (academic or athletic) the credit that they desrve, and then get on with life!
Well now, I've gotta say that I think that CSflim has summed this up pretty nicely. I agree 100% with everything that he has said here. Well said, sir...well said.
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Old 01-27-2004, 08:01 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
Well now, I've gotta say that I think that CSflim has summed this up pretty nicely. I agree 100% with everything that he has said here. Well said, sir...well said.
Ditto.
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Old 01-27-2004, 10:15 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Why not just stop grading students altogether, then their intellectual worth won't be reduced to a number. Stop testing students too. Its too stressful and students may get upset at their scores if they don't do well. We shouldn't make them do any work either. Work is very difficult, and if you don't do very well at your job you may feel worthless or stressed out. We shouldn't be allowed to have kids anymore either, because if you are alive you will eventually die, and death is really scary.

This is so stupid. Honor kids if they do well. How detrimental can that be? I didn't make the honor roll in High School, and I didn't excel in sports. And believe it or not, I turned out just fine.
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Old 01-27-2004, 10:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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This is the first step in the heat death of the universe....
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Old 01-27-2004, 10:42 AM   #38 (permalink)
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If we stop teaching them, hopefully they'll all stay equally stupid.
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:14 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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I don't think this is the big issue people are making it out to be. If I read this article correctly, the stupidity is being demonstrated by the parents of the underachievers.

The schools are only complying with them 'cause it really is against state policy to release this information. The institutions are not thinking that showering overachievers (although I prefer to think of them as simply students and that everyone should "overachieve") will be to the detreminent of others, although the article certainly makes it sound that way.

It is an interesting story, though...
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