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Old 01-29-2004, 06:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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"Environmental guerrillas" vandalize SUV's

LINKY

Quote:
Teens held for smashing 'decadent' SUVs
'Environmental guerrillas' vandalize almost 50 sport utility vehicles

A teenage self-described environmental guerrilla led a group of peers in vandalizing almost 50 sport utility vehicles in Houston, police charge.

According to the Houston Chronicle, local law-enforcement authorities say the group, led by Randall W. Heinrichs, 18, smashed windows and slashed tires on SUVs in north Harris County, Texas, from October through December.

Capt. Rick Brass says Heinrichs "talks about how [SUVs] are environmentally unfriendly [and] decadent," the paper reported. The officer says the teenager has a "personal hatred" for sport utility vehicles.

Heinrichs is on probation for felony arson in a flag-burning case.

While Heinrichs was nabbed Jan. 9, two other teenage suspects were arrested Tuesday. The ringleader is being held without bail because of his arson probation. The other suspects had bail set at $5,000. A fourth suspect was expected to turn himself in to authorities.

The lone female in the group, Lindsey Garofano, 18, told deputies she particularly resented "arrogant ladies" who drive expensive SUVs instead of buying more economical cars and donating the surplus money to charity, the Chronicle reported.


This isn't a major story, but I do have one point to make.

Is anyone willing to bet that these people are 100% against the Patriot Act because they say it violates their rights? But they feel as though you shouldn't have the right to spend your money on whatever you want to drive.... Does this make any sense at all? Of course not.
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Old 01-29-2004, 06:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What an excellent jump in logic. I don't think Evel Knievel would attempt something like that.

I agree that property damage maybe isn't the best way to get people to listen to what you are saying. These were probably just some teenagers with a destructive streak rationalizing their actions through politics.
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Old 01-29-2004, 06:44 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The lone female in the group, Lindsey Garofano, 18, told deputies she particularly resented "arrogant ladies" who drive expensive SUVs instead of buying more economical cars and donating the surplus money to charity, the Chronicle reported.
The money didn't go to charity. That was her decision and right.

However, by smashing and slashing the tires of the named SUVs, how is that not ultimately wasting even more of that "arrogant lady's" money on repairs or insurance?
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Old 01-29-2004, 07:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hmmm, interesting link.

But if you want to argue along these lines, then I will point out that there is nothing in the constitution that guarentees your right to an SUV (let alone your right to drive), while there are provisions against unreasonable searches, due process, etc.

So in otherwords, the govt. *could* outlaw driving tomorrow and the Patriot Act would *still* be unconstitutional (at least partially, maybe wholly).
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Old 01-29-2004, 07:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Suvs = decedant, okay that I can understand in a lot of instances, not all but most. This is very poor execution of political activism by the teens. Scratch that, this isn't even political activism, this is angry teens doing property damage as Grondar said.
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Old 01-29-2004, 08:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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18 years old == stupid. I'm not sure that this story proves any point other than that.

But yeah, people are amazingly hypocritical in the world. I can't believe Bill Bennett was gambling away while preaching morality, or that Condit was slamming Clinton while bonking an intern. So much hypocrisy everywhere...
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Old 01-29-2004, 08:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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strawman, what? "How much you wanna bet" is not of logical value. Even if they did...some stupid people who don't like the patriot act does not make all people who don't like the patriot act stupid.
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 01-30-2004, 08:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I can understand posting the article, but in light of sixate's analysis how is this anything but an attempted troll thread? What kind of discussion is it meant to start? How does this act of vandalism have anything to do with the patriot act?

I'm pretty sure if i posted anything along these lines the post beneath it would contain an implicitly threatening "I'm watching" or a warning.

Last edited by filtherton; 01-30-2004 at 09:03 AM..
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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what is this thread about anyway? crazy hypocritical liberals or SUVs... there's no point debating leftists who don't think straight... its would be the same as posting something about uber-conservative christians who cherish the bible and love their neighbor... almost as much as their handy-dandy gun rack... criticizing the far-end spectrum of any side for not thinking very well is pointless... If this thread were about SUVs however, thats an interesting point... I wonder sixate if you consider that while somone has a right to spend their money on whatever they want (as long as it isn't illegal) somone else might perhaps have the right to breath clean air in a city, where SUVs are completely pointless? I myself love driving and love driving big things, but I only ever justify driving an SUV when I'm at home in Zambia and sometimes the roads and or security conditions require it. Driving a hummer in NYC? like a bald man with a comb
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I see the little environmentalist shit is on probation for flag burning. Wasn't thinking much of the environment when he released the fumes from the toxic dyes in the flag now was he?
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:51 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I fully support the actions of this group.

Burning a flag is an expression of the freedom of speech the American's claim they love - but really we understand that it is freedom only to say those things allowed within the rules set by the master class.

Destroying and damaging the wasteful SUV's is a bold and daring statement against America's arrogant and inhuman environmental policies. These are not vandals, they are political prisoners, and maybe in one definition prisoners of war - because it is a civil war, bubbling under the surface of society, between the master class and the followers of capitalism, militariasm, racial and religious hate - and those of the working classes and student classes who love freedom and democracry.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I bet you're a real party animal down at the pub.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I do not believe that sixate is attempting to be a troll, although to many people his position is very hard to understand. This revolutionary group represents millions of workers and students, but at the same time they represent a whole generation that Middle America does not even comprehend the existence of.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
Filtherton

I do not believe that sixate is attempting to be a troll, although to many people his position is very hard to understand. This revolutionary group represents millions of workers and students, but at the same time they represent a whole generation that Middle America does not even comprehend the existence of.
I think you're the one that is confused - Bet ya' a pint of your favorite - give any one of these little assholes (and there are hundreds and hundreds - no where close to your imaginary figure) the keys to a Hummer or Escalade and he'll hop in and drive happily into the sunset.

They'll burn someone elses but you probably better not touch theirs.
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Old 01-30-2004, 11:02 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I bet you're a real party animal down at the pub.
Most people I know are careful never to mention politics in my presence
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Old 01-30-2004, 01:05 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Heinrichs is on probation for felony arson in a flag-burning case.
Last time i checked, i have the right to burn a flag should i so desire. I'm guessing he was doing it in a hazardous fashion
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Old 01-30-2004, 04:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
I can understand posting the article, but in light of sixate's analysis how is this anything but an attempted troll thread? What kind of discussion is it meant to start? How does this act of vandalism have anything to do with the patriot act?

I'm pretty sure if i posted anything along these lines the post beneath it would contain an implicitly threatening "I'm watching" or a warning.
Attempt to believe whatever you want. I could care less. First, I didn't see you take me up on my bet. Second, I don't get special treatment for being a mod. If I did something that was out of line I would be told about it. The simple fact is these people would be against the Patriot Act, but they feel as though you don't have the right to drive an SUV and spend your money on whatever you want. Are you willing to bet on the fact that they support the Patriot Act? I didn't think so. This has a lot to do with the Patriot Act. When people whine and cry about it violating their rights they shouldn't violate other people's rights to spend their money on whatever vehicle they want to drive. Are you gonna tell me that's a logical thought process?

Why is it that any time someone doesn't like a post it's considered trolling. Maybe I'll just run into every pro liberal post and accuse everyone who supports an idea that I don't a troll.....


Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
I fully support the actions of this group.

Burning a flag is an expression of the freedom of speech the American's claim they love - but really we understand that it is freedom only to say those things allowed within the rules set by the master class.

Destroying and damaging the wasteful SUV's is a bold and daring statement against America's arrogant and inhuman environmental policies. These are not vandals, they are political prisoners, and maybe in one definition prisoners of war - because it is a civil war, bubbling under the surface of society, between the master class and the followers of capitalism, militariasm, racial and religious hate - and those of the working classes and student classes who love freedom and democracry.
You think they have the right to be criminals? See, that's exactly what's wrong with the world today... The fact that there's a shitload of people who support people's rights to be criminals. Thanks for your contribution to society.

These people are not even close to political prisoners. I'll keep the rest of my comments to myself because I don't know why I waste time commenting on someone's opinion who lives on the other side of the planet who doesn't really know what's going on over here and only chooses to believe whatever propaganda he wants to believe.

Quote:
Originally posted by arch13
Last time i checked, i have the right to burn a flag should i so desire. I'm guessing he was doing it in a hazardous fashion
You do, if it's your flag. He went on other people's property and burned their shit. He went to a local school and store, and burned their flags. That is illegal. Are you gonna defend him and say he has that right? Should he also have the right to burn your house down just because he doesn't like it?
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
Attempt to believe whatever you want. I could care less. First, I didn't see you take me up on my bet. Second, I don't get special treatment for being a mod. If I did something that was out of line I would be told about it. The simple fact is these people would be against the Patriot Act, but they feel as though you don't have the right to drive an SUV and spend your money on whatever you want. Are you willing to bet on the fact that they support the Patriot Act? I didn't think so. This has a lot to do with the Patriot Act. When people whine and cry about it violating their rights they shouldn't violate other people's rights to spend their money on whatever vehicle they want to drive. Are you gonna tell me that's a logical thought process?

Why is it that any time someone doesn't like a post it's considered trolling. Maybe I'll just run into every pro liberal post and accuse everyone who supports an idea that I don't a troll.....
Can i borrow this?

My point is that it is quite a jump to go from an article about destruction of property to the patriot act. I really wouldn't have a problem with your post if i could see a point to it other than an attempt to talk shit about people who don't support the patriot act.

What else can we speculate on about these misguided kids?
I bet they're cokeheads. Stupid dopers think its all right to buy drugs but not an suv.
Maybe their straightedge. Stupid x-heads can't handle doing drugs but they can handle destroying other people's property.
Maybe they're ecoconscious white supremacists.
No wait, i bet their fanatic christians who think that SUV's are a metaphor for the excesses of satan.
Whatever.

Let's make a deal. I'll believe whatever i want and you can pretend that anyone who questions your motivations is a crackpot.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Sixate, I saw this article the other day and it pisses me off as much as it does you and for the very same reasons. Imagine what these satan-led assholes would do if we took away their degenerate music or cracked down extremely hard on drug use. They'd scream and cry (and smoke up) because they felt as though their own freedoms of choice had been taken away from them, all the while demonizing others for driving SUVs just because they use slightly more gasoline than their own cars. And you're right--if you handed any of them the keys to an Escalade or Suburban they'd be so happy they'd forget to take their Ritalin for at least a day or two until mommy put them in time-out. Basically, they've been raised by people who were willingly brainwashed by the leftist media of the 60s and 70s, and were never taught anything about morals or the genius of capitalism. Chances are they were never spanked for anything, mommy asked them to behave instead of demanding it, and daddy worked too much and spent too much time with his new wife to pay any attention to them. They hate America, SUVs, the Right and Christianity because they hate themselves, and they're too fucking stupid to ever learn how to behave as good people or proper citizens. All we can hope for is that they all contract herpes or another STD during their "sexual experimentation" years and render themselves incapable of reproducing, or O.D. on extasy.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I honestly don't see the connection between the Patriot Act and property damage under the guise of political activism. It seems like you (sixate) are trying to create a strawman from this action and then apply it to the Patriot Act to claim some kind of hipocracy. If you want to defend the Patriot Act, great, but don't try to defend it by the strawman. Inparticular I take issue with the phrase

"The simple fact is these people would be against the Patriot Act, but they feel as though you don't have the right to drive an SUV and spend your money on whatever you want. Are you willing to bet on the fact that they support the Patriot Act? "

and the way you somewhat slyly transition from attempting to explain their (the vandals) beliefs on the Patriot Act to anyone who disagrees with the Act, with this statement

"When people whine and cry about it violating their rights they shouldn't violate other people's rights to spend their money on whatever vehicle they want to drive."

And as you stated earlier "Are you gonna tell me that's a logical thought process?"


In attempting to show that all people who disagree with the Patriot agree with the vandals' actions, you show a lot of bias and the mindset that you are working from, not to mention you have demonstrated that you can pull a sly debate trick *applause.*
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:36 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoCo
Sixate, I saw this article the other day and it pisses me off as much as it does you and for the very same reasons. Imagine what these satan-led assholes would do if we took away their degenerate music or cracked down extremely hard on drug use. They'd scream and cry (and smoke up) because they felt as though their own freedoms of choice had been taken away from them, all the while demonizing others for driving SUVs just because they use slightly more gasoline than their own cars. And you're right--if you handed any of them the keys to an Escalade or Suburban they'd be so happy they'd forget to take their Ritalin for at least a day or two until mommy put them in time-out. Basically, they've been raised by people who were willingly brainwashed by the leftist media of the 60s and 70s, and were never taught anything about morals or the genius of capitalism. Chances are they were never spanked for anything, mommy asked them to behave instead of demanding it, and daddy worked too much and spent too much time with his new wife to pay any attention to them. They hate America, SUVs, the Right and Christianity because they hate themselves, and they're too fucking stupid to ever learn how to behave as good people or proper citizens. All we can hope for is that they all contract herpes or another STD during their "sexual experimentation" years and render themselves incapable of reproducing, or O.D. on extasy.
I'm not excusing, but i think it might make sense to point out that unless you know these kids personally you don't know anything about these kids aside from what is in the article. Meaning that you aren't really in a position to make any of the judgements that you just made. Maybe they're just confused kids who made a mistake while going through a rebellious stage. Either way i think it might be to soon to hope that they lose their ability to reproduce. Didn't a lot of america hating hippies grow up to be america loving conservatives?

Although maybe it is good for you to vent all that inner rage before you get an ulcer or something.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I've known enough of these worthless people to know them when I see them. Your opinions of my abilities to spot piece of shit people are meaningless to me.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
Can i borrow this?

My point is that it is quite a jump to go from an article about destruction of property to the patriot act. I really wouldn't have a problem with your post if i could see a point to it other than an attempt to talk shit about people who don't support the patriot act.

What else can we speculate on about these misguided kids?
I bet they're cokeheads. Stupid dopers think its all right to buy drugs but not an suv.
Stupid x-heads can't handle doing drugs but they can handle destroying other people's property.


Let's make a deal. I'll believe whatever i want and you can pretend that anyone who questions your motivations is a crackpot.
Borrow whatever you want.

I'm no talking shit. I'm pointing out some simple facts.
Just give me a straight yes or no answer. You don't have a problem with someone hating the Patriot act because it "violates their rights", then turn around and vandalize your vehicle because they don't think you should have the right to drive whatever you want? You don't see a point in that?

I left the parts in which I would bet my ass these kids do fall in.

Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
I honestly don't see the connection between the Patriot Act and property damage under the guise of political activism. It seems like you (sixate) are trying to create a strawman from this action and then apply it to the Patriot Act to claim some kind of hipocracy. If you want to defend the Patriot Act, great, but don't try to defend it by the strawman. Inparticular I take issue with the phrase

"The simple fact is these people would be against the Patriot Act, but they feel as though you don't have the right to drive an SUV and spend your money on whatever you want. Are you willing to bet on the fact that they support the Patriot Act? "

and the way you somewhat slyly transition from attempting to explain their (the vandals) beliefs on the Patriot Act to anyone who disagrees with the Act, with this statement

"When people whine and cry about it violating their rights they shouldn't violate other people's rights to spend their money on whatever vehicle they want to drive."

And as you stated earlier "Are you gonna tell me that's a logical thought process?"


In attempting to show that all people who disagree with the Patriot agree with the vandals' actions, you show a lot of bias and the mindset that you are working from, not to mention you have demonstrated that you can pull a sly debate trick *applause.*
What's the applause for?

Did I say that all people who disagree with the Patriot Act are vandals? FUCK NO! Read what I said. I said these people are vandals, and I'd bet they don't support something which they think takes away their rights, but they violate people's rights on a daily basis. You think I'm a hypocrite because you think you know what I said, but you don't think these people are hypocrites? What a joke. The only reason you take issue with anything I said is because it makes perfect sense.

Last edited by sixate; 01-30-2004 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:42 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
What's the applause for?
It's his way of trying to make himself appear intellectual.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:42 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoCo
Sixate, I saw this article the other day and it pisses me off as much as it does you and for the very same reasons. Imagine what these satan-led assholes would do if we took away their degenerate music or cracked down extremely hard on drug use. They'd scream and cry (and smoke up) because they felt as though their own freedoms of choice had been taken away from them, all the while demonizing others for driving SUVs just because they use slightly more gasoline than their own cars. And you're right--if you handed any of them the keys to an Escalade or Suburban they'd be so happy they'd forget to take their Ritalin for at least a day or two until mommy put them in time-out. Basically, they've been raised by people who were willingly brainwashed by the leftist media of the 60s and 70s, and were never taught anything about morals or the genius of capitalism. Chances are they were never spanked for anything, mommy asked them to behave instead of demanding it, and daddy worked too much and spent too much time with his new wife to pay any attention to them. They hate America, SUVs, the Right and Christianity because they hate themselves, and they're too fucking stupid to ever learn how to behave as good people or proper citizens. All we can hope for is that they all contract herpes or another STD during their "sexual experimentation" years and render themselves incapable of reproducing, or O.D. on extasy.
Okay school is in session, time for a few lessons:

1. Ad homs (insults) are not real arguments and spewing them only makes you look foolish. Specifically the phrases of "satan-led assholes", "They hate America, SUVs, the Right and Christianity ... they're too fucking stupid to ever learn how to behave as good people or proper citizens" and "they'd forget to take their Ritalin for at least a day or two until mommy put them in time-out" make you look like a raving loonie and people will automatically discount anything of value you might have to say.

2. When ranting have a specific focus, you ranted against the media of the 60's and 70's, music, drugs, sex, satan, non-capitalists, psychology and STD. This makes you look like someone ranting with no purpose, people will discount your valid arguments when things are presented this way.

3. Try to use either warrants (logic) or sources in an argument otherwise the entire basis for your argument is worth nothing.

*bell rings* okay school is out for the day.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
What's the applause for?

Did I say that all people who disagree with the Patriot Act are vandals? FUCK NO! Read what I said. I said these people are vandals, and I'd bet they don't support something which they think takes away their rights, but they violate people's rights on a daily basis. You think I'm a hypocrite because you think you know what I said, but you don't think these people are hypocrites? What a joke. The only reason you take issue with anything I said is because it makes perfect sense.
You switched from "these people" and a specific argument against vandals, to an argument against all "people" who disagree with the Patriot Act and disagree with SUV drivers. It is a cute debate trick but really transparent when used on an on-line forum.

"The simple fact is these people..."

to

"When people..."
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
You switched from "these people" and a specific argument against vandals, to an argument against all "people" who disagree with the Patriot Act and disagree with SUV drivers. It is a cute debate trick but really transparent when used on an on-line forum.

"The simple fact is these people..."

to

"When people..."
I'm obviously talking about these people in the article. DUH! If you want to think I'm speaking for everyone, then by all means. Go right ahead. Sorry for not being specific enough for you.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:59 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Sixate. he has no argument so he's simply trying to pick apart what you said instead.
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Old 01-30-2004, 06:01 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
I'm obviously talking about these people in the article. DUH! If you want to think I'm speaking for everyone, then by all means. Go right ahead. Sorry for not being specific enough for you.
Sure, I will concede that you were talking about the vandals when you made the "when people" statement but regardless bringing the Patriot Act into the thread was a blantant threadjack attempt.
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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."
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Old 01-30-2004, 06:04 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoCo
Sixate. he has no argument so he's simply trying to pick apart what you said instead.
1. Refutation is formed by taking someone's statements and picking them apart.

2. Why not try some of that refutation instead of making the warrantless comment of "he has no argument" ?
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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."
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Old 01-30-2004, 06:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
Borrow whatever you want.

I'm no talking shit. I'm pointing out some simple facts.
Just give me a straight yes or no answer. You don't have a problem with someone hating the Patriot act because it "violates their rights", then turn around and vandalize your vehicle because they don't think you should have the right to drive whatever you want? You don't see a point in that?
It's not something i'd try to do. So no, it would be hypocritical to claim to hate something for violating your rights and then turn around and violate someone else's rights. Now before you think that i'm agreeing with you let me just say that your assertion that these kids complained about the patriot act is silly. You might have as well have posted a story about a rapist and said, "See, i bet that this guy complained about the patriot act violating people's rights. Now he turns around and violates some woman's rights. That is so typical."

Since i answered your question, please answer me this, what is the point of this thread? Are you trying to point out the fact that these kids were acting like inconsiderate morons? You don't need to mention the patriot act to prove that point. Furthermore, you only lessen your credibility in my eyes when you try to claim that these kids are morons not because of their misguided ecoactivism, but because of something you made up out of thin air (their connection to the patriot act).


Quote:
Originally posted by BoCo
I've known enough of these worthless people to know them when I see them. Your opinions of my abilities to spot piece of shit people are meaningless to me.
To know them when you see them?!? You haven't seen anything. The ability to judge and dismiss people based on superficial and circumstantial evidence is a very admirable one. You should be proud. In a way though, you're "ability" to spot shit when you see it is probably pretty similar to the kids in this article's ability to spot polluters and ecoterrorists. What do you see when you look in the mirror?

Last edited by filtherton; 01-30-2004 at 06:55 PM..
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:03 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
It's not something i'd try to do. So no, it would be hypocritical to claim to hate something for violating your rights and then turn around and vilate someone else's rights. Now before you think that you're right let me just say that your assertion that these kids complained about the patriot act is silly. You might have as well have posted a story about a rapist and said, "See, i bet that this guy complained about the patriot act violating people's rights. Now he turns around and violates some woman's rights. That is so typical."

Since i answered your question, please answer me this, what is the point of this thread? Are you trying to point out the fact that these kids were acting like inconsiderate morons? You don't need to mention the patriot act to prove that point. Furthermore, you only lessen your credibility in my eyes when you try to claim that these kids are morons not because of their misguided ecoactivism, but because of something you made up out of thin air (their connection to the patriot act).
I won't deny it's my opinion with no fact, but if I was bored enough to prove myself right in my thoughts I'm sure I could find proof that they are against the Patriot Act. The reason they would be against the Patriot Act is because they are a domestic terror group, and the government could use means which they couldn't do before to put many of their members away. There's a huge difference between a few crazy guys who rape someone, and a domestic terror group. That's why I brought the Patriot Act into this.

Just check out the link, and then tell me that you think this group would approve of the Patriot Act. The name of the group that these people associate with is called the Earth Liberation Front(ELF).

LINKY

Thanks for giving me a straight answer.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't have to go to the website to know that i'm pretty sure the ELF is fucked. They're violent and very backwards about some things. They're tied to a straightedge punk scene that is pretty misogynistic. Really, the ELF, especially the european elf, in many ways is no different in my mind than the klan or some fringe militia, they all think they are right and are violently uncompromising. I wasn't aware of the ELF connection though. I guess it would only seem logical that they would tend not to favor the patriot act since they no doubt qualify as a terrorist group. I that case though, it seems unlikely that they would denounce the patriot act becasue it violates their rights. Rights should be of little concern for a group that seems to think "gaia" is the only entity that deserves protection.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:48 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sixate
I won't deny it's my opinion with no fact, but if I was bored enough to prove myself right in my thoughts I'm sure I could find proof that they are against the Patriot Act. The reason they would be against the Patriot Act is because they are a domestic terror group, and the government could use means which they couldn't do before to put many of their members away. There's a huge difference between a few crazy guys who rape someone, and a domestic terror group. That's why I brought the Patriot Act into this.

Just check out the link, and then tell me that you think this group would approve of the Patriot Act. The name of the group that these people associate with is called the Earth Liberation Front(ELF).

LINKY

Thanks for giving me a straight answer.
So many cute debate trick but you don't seem to get that they DON'T WORK in on-line forums because what you say is written and can be picked apart.

1. You don't know the mindset of the vandals or their stances on the Patriot Act, your arguments about what they would or wouldn't support are moot from lack of knowledge.

2. You are still trying to prove a link-story between the patriot act and SUV vandals, just stop, you won't find a credible link-story.

3. I get really, REALLY freaking tired of people abusing and misusing the words "terror" and "terrorist". Hamas, Timothy McVeigh, the IRA and the ever mentioned Al-quada are terrorist, kids bashing SUV are not a terrorist group and calling them such is a blatant cop-out to link them with REAL terrorist groups, you know... the ones who kill people for political reasons.

4. By your definition of terror group, anything can be a terror group. Workers picketing on strike, "a few crazy guys who rape someone" or someone who smashes a few SUVs.

5. ELF has nothing to do with these kids, red herrings are bad, leave 'em in the pond. On that note I would like to also point out that even though these kids have no ties to ELF, guilt by association is also bad, leave it at home.
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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."
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Old 01-31-2004, 05:12 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanofever
So many cute debate trick but you don't seem to get that they DON'T WORK in on-line forums because what you say is written and can be picked apart.
I can just as easily pick every one of your words apart, and it wouldn't be hard to get some links to prove a point or two, but I have more important things to do... Like scratch my ass.

You're involved in a one man pissing contest and your aiming toward the wind.
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Old 01-31-2004, 05:33 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
I fully support the actions of this group.

Burning a flag is an expression of the freedom of speech the American's claim they love - but really we understand that it is freedom only to say those things allowed within the rules set by the master class.

Destroying and damaging the wasteful SUV's is a bold and daring statement against America's arrogant and inhuman environmental policies. These are not vandals, they are political prisoners, and maybe in one definition prisoners of war - because it is a civil war, bubbling under the surface of society, between the master class and the followers of capitalism, militariasm, racial and religious hate - and those of the working classes and student classes who love freedom and democracry.
People like you make me want to buy an Excursion just for spite.
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Old 01-31-2004, 07:42 AM   #39 (permalink)
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OK,

This has degenerated enough.

Locked.
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