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Old 02-01-2004, 11:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Religious Stampede?!?!

Unbelievable

What can one rationally make of this?

Bizarre on so many levels...
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Please post content and not just links.

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-------------------------

Hajj stampede: 244 pilgrims dead
Sunday, February 1, 2004 Posted: 9:38 AM EST (1438 GMT)



The stampede happened Sunday during a stone-throwing ritual

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MECCA, Saudi Arabia (CNN) -- A stampede Sunday morning killed 244 Muslim pilgrims and injured another 244 at a stone-throwing ritual which has been the source of deadly tramplings in the past, according to Saudi's health minister.

The incident happened around 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) during the annual Hajj pilgrimage. The health minister said the stampede lasted for about 27 minutes before the crowd was brought under control. The stoning ritual has since resumed.

Seven of those hurt were seriously injured.

The pilgrims traveled from the Muslim holy city of Mecca to Mina to cast small pebbles at three columns of stone that symbolize the devil.

An estimated 2 million pilgrims are attending this year's Hajj.

Last year, 36 pilgrims were trampled to death, most of them en route to the devil stoning ritual.

In 2001, a stampede at the same ritual killed 35.

Muslims across the globe make the annual Hajj pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia, where they worship at Islam's holiest sites. The five-day journey -- which every adult Muslim must take at least once if possible -- began Jan. 31.

The gathering of millions is often the scene of deadly stampedes and other violence.

The most deadly Hajj-related incident was a 1990 stampede in which 1,426 pilgrims were killed.

Here is a breakdown of other violent incidents at the annual Muslim pilgrimage:

1998 - 180 people died in a stampede near Mecca at the end of the Hajj;

1997 - A fire in Mina tore through the sprawling, overcrowded tent city , trapping and killing more than 340 pilgrims and injuring 1,500;

1994 - a stampede kills 270 pilgrims;

1991 - a chartered airliner carrying pilgrims home to Nigeria crashed, killing 261;

1991 - a plane crash in northern Saudi Arabia killed 91 Senegalese soldiers returning from a trip to Mecca which had been a reward for their service in the U.S.-led coalition that drove Iraqi forces from Kuwait in the Gulf War a month earlier;

1989 - bombs exploded near the Grand Mosque in Mecca, killing one pilgrim and wounding 16 others;

1987 - some 400 people, mainly Iranian Shi'ite pilgrims, were killed in clashes with Saudi security forces during anti-Western protests in Mecca.

-- CNN Correspondent Rym Brahimi and Producer Ayman Mohyeldin contributed to this report
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It's what happens when you get 2 million people in such a cramped space. I'd say that the religious nature of it is completely unrelated, just ask any fire marshall - one thing goes wrong in a crowd like that, and panic spreads like wildfire.
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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bleh, what a horrible way to die
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re-read it...its religious ritual/fervor.
Quote:
It's what happens when you get 2 million people in such a cramped space.
This violence simply doesn't occur, for instance, at Disneyland, Superbowl, Olympics, Rose Bowl, Carnivale in Rio, Indy500, etc..
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I heard today that if you die at Hajj you go straight to heaven
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Old 02-01-2004, 05:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
T MUSIC VENUES:

Dec. 3, 1979, Cincinnati: 11 killed in a crush to get into a concert by The Who.

Aug. 29, 1980, Maseru, Lesotho: About 20 people killed in a stampede when police in the African country fired tear gas into a crowd trying to force its way into a concert by singer Steve Kekana.

Sept. 30, 1987, Mexico City: Four killed when 25,000 people waiting for a performance by Timbiriche, Flans and Fresas pushed into the concert area.

Dec. 19, 1987, Nashville, Tenn.: Two teens killed in the crush of a crowd departing from a Public Enemy concert.

Jan. 18, 1991, Salt Lake City: Three teen-agers killed when the crowd at an AC-DC concert rushed the stage.

Dec. 28, 1991, New York: Eight suffocated in pileup of people trying to get into City College of New York gymnasium for charity basketball game played by rappers.

May 30, 1999, Minsk, Belarus: 53 killed when a crowd fleeing storm at a rock concert and beer festival stampeded in an underground passage.

July 1, 2000, Copenhagen, Denmark: Eight killed in crush of fans trying to get closer to Pearl Jam at an outdoor concert.

Feb. 17, 2003, Chicago: At least 21 killed at a Chicago nightclub when guests rushed to the exits after someone used Mace or pepper spray.

AT SOCCER STADIUMS:

June 23, 1968, Buenos Aires, Argentina: 74 killed when soccer fans try to leave stadium by closed exit and are crushed by others.

March 12, 1988, Katmandu, Nepal: At least 93 killed and more than 100 injured when soccer fans fleeing a hailstorm stampede into locked stadium exits.

April 15, 1989, Sheffield, England: 95 crushed to death when police opened gates to alleviate crowding at soccer match.

June 16, 1996, Lusaka, Zambia: Nine soccer fans crushed to death and 78 others injured during a stampede.

April 11, 2001, Johannesburg, South Africa: 43 people killed and 155 injured as fans try to push into overcrowded stadium.

AT RELIGIOUS FESTIVALS:

July 2, 1990, Mecca, Saudi Arabia: 1,426 pilgrims killed in a stampede in an overcrowded pedestrian tunnel leading to holy sites. It is the worst hajj tragedy.

May 23, 1994, Mecca, Saudi Arabia: 270 killed in a stampede as worshippers surge during stoning of the devil ritual.

April 9, 1998, Mina, Saudi Arabia: About 180 trampled to death when panic erupted after several pilgrims fell off an overpass.

March 5, 2001, Mina, Saudi Arabia: 35 killed in stampede during stoning of the devil ritual.

March 31, 2001, Multan, Pakistan: 30 people killed when crowd of worshippers surged through the gates of a shrine.

Feb. 11, 2003, Mina, Saudi Arabia: 14 Muslim pilgrims trampled to death at a ritual near the end of the hajj pilgrimage.

OTHER STAMPEDE TRAGEDIES:

Dec. 4, 1999, Vienna, Austria: Five people trampled to death in a stampede of spectators at a snowboarding event.

Dec. 1, 2001, Gaibandha, Bangladesh: At least 31 killed in a stampede of people scrambling for charity clothes.

July 21, 2001, Akashi, Japan: 11 trampled to death when youths pushing through a crowd at a fireworks festival triggered a stampede.
from http://www.bluemud.org/article/23345

its a tragedy...and it is fueled by religious fervor, but its not unique to the islamic world. i mean, people died for the Who...its a factor of the size of the crowd, bad planning, and some bad luck.
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Old 02-01-2004, 05:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Man, it's a damn good thing the Who wasn't playing too.

Sorry, I just got back from a Catholic funeral, and, though I realize that many people get a lot out of them, this ritualistic, superstitious folderal either leaves me chuckling in a self satisfied kind of a way or fuming at the time and resources wasted. I really can't feel too bad for folks killed at a ritual in which it seems some folks get killed every other year or so at least.
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Old 02-01-2004, 05:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
It's what happens when you get 2 million people in such a cramped space. I'd say that the religious nature of it is completely unrelated, just ask any fire marshall - one thing goes wrong in a crowd like that, and panic spreads like wildfire.
I've been in crowds of over a million people and there were not deaths like this. Its the nature of the event in this case where everyone is pushing to get to one spot which causes the problem, not just the size of the crowd.
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Old 02-01-2004, 06:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This from an AP version of the story:

Safety measures were in place at the site - one where fatal stampedes have been frequent - but "caution isn't stronger than fate," said Saudi Hajj Minister Iyad Madani. "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will."

.................

It's "God's will," I guess...
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Old 02-01-2004, 09:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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No one here has ever been the the kind of packing-in that happens on Haaj. There are hundreds of thousands going through the paces in one religious event, such as stoning the devil.

This is European football x50. People die every other week in the crouds of european football matches.

Just gotta get the mix of human density + excitement.
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Old 02-02-2004, 10:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
A couple of hundred people are dead because they were a little too enthusiastic about stoning the Devil. This happens every year. Is it culturally insensitive to ask whether there isn't something profoundly awry about a religion that sends so many to their deaths as part of a religious duty? The Hajj minister in Saudi Arabia comments: "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate." Excuse me? God's will to commit hundreds to their deaths? At the same time, Islamist fanatics murder scores by killing themselves in Iraq. What we have on our hands is, in some instances, not that far from a death cult.
Source
Quote:
This manual supports my point that the “stoning” ritual and accompanying deadly stampedes are a form of human sacrifice that is tacitly condoned. Everyone involved knows there’s a great likelihood of mass casualties, yet the pilgrims don’t modify their behavior and the authorities don’t institute effective counter-measures. It’s a state-sanctioned blood ritual; they’re not putting people on altars and ripping their hearts out like the Aztecs did, but it’s only one step away.
The "Manual"
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Old 02-02-2004, 11:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Powerclown, what statement were you trying to make?
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Old 02-02-2004, 12:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Powerclown, disguised human sacrifice is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard how often this goes on. Of course, I kind of blew it off with a "nobody's that crazy any more", but that's just my much trampled optimism making a break for it. (Back in your cage, you sniveling, simpering bastard! *Shhhhwih Crack!*)
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Old 02-02-2004, 01:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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crazy religious whackos :P
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Old 02-03-2004, 07:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Justification for the Iraq War.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ever wonder if religion is the root of all evil?
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
Comment or else!!
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boo
Ever wonder if religion is the root of all evil?
No..girls and money is...

back to the stampede...god damn! have some control people!

Do they NOT watch where they're going or something?
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Old 02-16-2004, 10:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think a lot of it has to do with the level of religious fanaticism prevalent among some Muslims. I don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, I know not all Muslims are crazy and that every religion has its zealots. It seems to me that Muslims living in the 3rd world are the very craziest, least predictable people on earth though. That's just my opinion and I sincerely hope that I haven't offended anyone.
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:23 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Its not a matter of fanatacism, its a matter of a million people trying to do something all at once.. Its poor planning.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:18 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Don't you think that rationale people would realize that the current Hajj system isn't working and that it should be reviewed?

The Hajj minister in Saudi Arabia comments: "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate."

I think there is a little more to the situation than a lot of people packed in a tight space. People continue to die every year there.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:49 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dostoevsky
I think a lot of it has to do with the level of religious fanaticism prevalent among some Muslims. I don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, I know not all Muslims are crazy and that every religion has its zealots. It seems to me that Muslims living in the 3rd world are the very craziest, least predictable people on earth though. That's just my opinion and I sincerely hope that I haven't offended anyone.
Clearly you've never been to Singapore.

<img src=http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/03/07/09/rpirates.jpg>
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Ok, first thing I thought was:

"Who farted?"
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Old 02-17-2004, 06:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
Riiiiight........
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
Clearly you've never been to Singapore.

Actually, its hardly a 3rd world country. Much closer to Boston/Manhattan than to hmm...say New Delhi...

infinitely better education (at least for high school and below) than the US. Your top colleges remain world class, for now....
comparable (in quality) and infinitely cheaper health care system.

Pretty good religious and racial harmony, and a not a very strong social divide. But of course, you're right. Muslims in Singapore are just like everyone else. Not much in the way of fanaticism there.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dostoevsky
I think a lot of it has to do with the level of religious fanaticism prevalent among some Muslims. I don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, I know not all Muslims are crazy and that every religion has its zealots. It seems to me that Muslims living in the 3rd world are the very craziest, least predictable people on earth though. That's just my opinion and I sincerely hope that I haven't offended anyone.
The USA has its share of religious kooks, so I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Muslims. Off the top of my head:

- Waco (6 dead)
- Heaven's Gate cult (39 dead)
- Jim Jones (400 dead)

Take a good look in the mirror before you condemn a whole culture. I'd say that the USA is one of the more fanatical nations. Look at the highly placed officials like Ashcroft pushing a religious agenda, or that general in Iraq saying that the muslims are following Satan.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:48 PM   #26 (permalink)
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People die at the Hajj in mass numbers yearly. And going to the hajj is a part of Islam, its part of the foundation. Last time I checked cults waiting for spaceships and christians drinking kool-aid weren't the norm.
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:53 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Last time I checked neither religion is innocent of its own forms of killing throught their pasts.

P.S. Unless you're Islamic and not another pro-everything Christian guy, you have little room to say anything on another religion from which your sources are the internet.
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Old 02-18-2004, 03:46 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dimbulb
Actually, its hardly a 3rd world country. Much closer to Boston/Manhattan than to hmm...say New Delhi...

infinitely better education (at least for high school and below) than the US. Your top colleges remain world class, for now....
comparable (in quality) and infinitely cheaper health care system.

Pretty good religious and racial harmony, and a not a very strong social divide. But of course, you're right. Muslims in Singapore are just like everyone else. Not much in the way of fanaticism there.
Wasn't expecting a serious response to my attempt at humor, but thanks for the info about Singapore. The last I heard about the place was when a diplomat's kid got caned.
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