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Old 02-04-2004, 08:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Isn't it Ironic?

When you listen to democrats talk about America it seems to be an America filled with hungry children, starving widows, no heat, and no medicine. Score two points for emotionalism but lets discuss one fact that hasn't been altered by political bias as it wasn't thought of as political by the people involved.

America has a health crisis right now, and if you follow the news you most likely know what I'm talking about. Its not prostate cancer, heart disease or AIDS, those are so 1990's. No the crisis is now obesity. Americans are fat, and we know it. Its one of the few things Europeans have right about us. We, as a people, are bloated. We eat to much high carbohydrate (read sugar) food, and have ample protein to boot.

And here is the kicker, obesity is a bigger problem with the poor .

I am forced to wonder, WHERE are these starving people? I live in a major metropolitan area and I've never seen one. We are told they are everywhere yet are they invisible? Are they so thin that when a rich man (reads pays taxes) drives by they turn sideways and disappear? We have street people of course in Chicago and they refuse to go into shelters. They tend to be mentally ill, or in some cases just seem to like the life style, but even they are not starving. I listen to the news, yet I don't hear about starving deaths, hell I don't even hear about malnutrition. I can only conclude that people are NOT starving, and NOT suffering from malnutrition (at least not of their own doing).

Hell from what I've heard food stamps are under utilized . There are people who could get free food (well free for them, paid for by others), and they don't bother to make the effort to get it.

I think its safe to say that America has in fact WIPED OUT HUNGER in its own nation. The war on hunger in this country has been won! Now on to the war on obesity!
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Old 02-04-2004, 08:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It is cheaper to eat McDonalds than to spend that $5.25 (a value meal) trying to shop for decent groceries. Maybe crappy groceries at your corner fruit/veg stand...then what about meats?
Fast food is cheaper. Read "Fast Food Nation".
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Old 02-04-2004, 08:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Actually that's not true. I can make a balanced meal from food I purchased at the grocery for much cheaper than I can buy a value meal.
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Old 02-04-2004, 08:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I disagree....fast food is not cheaper, just more convienent. My wife and I went through a very lazy spell recently where no groceries were bought and we ate out all the time, including the teen agers. Our food bill doubled.

We are now correcting that problem and will be saving more money than in the past.

I don't remember the stats, but I have heard many times that Americans are heavier than ever, I know I am.
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Old 02-04-2004, 08:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I though this was going to be an alanis morrisette appreciation thread at first.

I think it is a bit too soon to claim that we've wiped out hunger in this country. You can't really call out democrats for painting with a broad brush and then in the same breath paint your picture with an equally sized brush. Two points for "everything is all right and if you complain you must be panderingism"
Despite what you may think, there are still poor people in this country. People who live paycheck to paycheck and who sometimes have to choose between groceries and heat or groceries and rent.

I know obesity is a crisis, but i myself am more concerned with the crisis of healthcare costs.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:01 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's not quite as cheap when you factor in the need to cook it, the time you spend at the grocery store, etc. There are hidden costs.

I think Ustwo is giving us a bit of a straw man. Hunger isn't an issue in the campaign. If you want a bona fide democratic talking point regarding the down-trodden, look no further than John Edward's rhetoric about the poor. There are something like 30 million people in America below the poverty line. As it stands, our economy is distributing the benefits disproportionately to the wealthy. (The rate of income growth among the rich is higher than that same rate among the poor and middle class)

The thing we need to be concerned about is that their children are extended the same chance at success as the children of the middle class.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Fast food is definitely more expensive. I eat fast food for damn near two meals a day. Just out of convenience. Put it together and it means I'm easily spending $10-$15 per day. That could go along way at any grocery store if I had time to prepare a meal. Convenience is the only driving factor to fast food. Laziness doesn't pay.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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So because many people are obese, there must be no starving people.

And because you haven't seen starving people, they must not exist.

Please.

You're dealing with two separate issues, and it's the worst kind of rhetorical dishonesty to conflate them. I don't even have time to pick apart the flaws in your thinking here. They should be pretty obvious to anybody with half a brain.

"Based on the Census Bureau survey, USDA estimates that in 2000, 10.5 million U.S. households were food insecure, meaning that they did not have access to enough food to meet their basic needs. About 33 million people lived in these households, including 20 million adults and 13 million children."

More stats at http://www.fhfh.org/hunger.html

Pretend it doesn't exist all you want, if it comforts you and allows you to cling to your neocon fantasies.
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Last edited by lurkette; 02-04-2004 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:18 AM   #9 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Location: Grantville, Pa
Driving to the Grocery store ~2-3 dollars including wear and tear.
Your time? I'll be generous and say 15 bucks. Gas bill for the month of cooking? 20 dollars.

Now those costs are spread out over an entire month.

Now you got:
At home. A nutritious meal. $.50-1.00 breakfast. $2-3 lunch. $3-4 dinner. (excluding steak night)

A meal at McD? $5.50 or more each time.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Two value meals at McDonald or one of it's rivals...10-12 bucks.
A pack of Chicken Breasts...the small pack with three pieces...6-9 bucks.
Quality veggies cost MONEY as well as fruit.
Factor in the above mentioned convenience which is implied...uhhh FAST FOOD...and this is an easy choice.

I just adopted practices from using the Scarsdale Medical Diet.
I have never in my life lost so much weight and spent so much shopping.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Have none of you heard of the dollar menu!?!?!
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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double post
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by lurkette
So because many people are obese, there must be no starving people.

And because you haven't seen starving people, they must not exist.

Please.

You're dealing with two separate issues, and it's the worst kind of rhetorical dishonesty to conflate them. I don't even have time to pick apart the flaws in your thinking here. They should be pretty obvious to anybody with half a brain.

"Based on the Census Bureau survey, USDA estimates that in 2000, 10.5 million U.S. households were food insecure, meaning that they did not have access to enough food to meet their basic needs. About 33 million people lived in these households, including 20 million adults and 13 million children."

More stats at http://www.fhfh.org/hunger.html

Pretend it doesn't exist all you want, if it comforts you and allows you to cling to your neocon fantasies.
Look boss da plane da plane!

Ah welcome to Neocon Fantasy Island!

Quote:
Eighty-nine percent of American households were food secure throughout the entire year 2001. The rest were food insecure at least some time during the year, meaning they did not always have access to enough food for active, healthy lives for all household members because they lacked sufficient money or other resources for food. The prevalence of food insecurity rose from 10.1 percent in 1999 to 10.7 percent in 2001, and the prevalence of food insecurity with hunger rose from 3.0 percent to 3.3 percent during the same period. This report, based on data from the December 2001 food security survey, provides the most recent statistics on the food security of U.S. households, as well as on how much they spent for food and the extent to which food-insecure households participated in Federal and community food assistance programs.
That’s from the USDA study. What it says is that 10.7% had food 'insecurities' at some point during the year, not the whole year but some point. That doesn’t mean they were hungry, but they were worried about the food budget!

As for hunger it says it was 3.3%. So at some point during the year there were 3.3% who were hungry for some reason.

Not discussed of this 3.3% it doesn't say WHY they were hungry, just that they were. Maybe momma is spending all her money on drugs, maybe dad left them, maybe its because its a SURVEY and filled out by the people. Yes on volunteer information STILL only 3.3% said they were hungry at ANY given time during the year.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr29/


Quote:
Q5. Were children ever hungry because of a lack of money and other household resources for food?
In U.S. households, children—especially younger children—are usually protected from hunger unless hunger among adults reaches quite severe levels. Even so, about 211,000 households (0.6 percent of households with children) registered hunger among children at some time during the year.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications...&Asecurity.pdf

It goes on, and its kind of funny reading the real report and listening to the liberal lies. .6% of households REPORTED that at some point during the year there was child hunger. What’s really amusing is how a household said they were 'hungry'.

Quote:
Adults ate less than they felt they should.
Based on how fat the rest of America is, that’s easy to understand why they felt that way.

Oh my! We better raise taxes for more food programs.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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http://www.centeronhunger.org/pdf/hungerandobesity.pdf

THE PARADOX OF HUNGER AND OBESITY IN AMERICA

Hunger and food insecurity have been called America’s “hidden crisis.” At the same time, and apparently paradoxically, obesity has been declared an epidemic. Both obesity and hunger (and, more broadly, food insecurity) are serious public health problems, sometimes co-existing in the same families and the same individuals. Their existence sounds contradictory, but those with insufficient resources to purchase adequate food can still be overweight, for reasons that researchers now are beginning to understand. Policymakers and the public need to better grasp this apparent paradox if our nation is to grapple with these parallel threats to the well-being of many children and adults, and avoid potentially damaging policy prescriptions arising from a mistaken belief that food insecurity and obesity cannot co-exist.

HUNGER AND FOOD INSECURITY THREATEN MANY LOW-INCOME PEOPLE IN THE US

Hunger and food insecurity (see text box for definitions) affect more than 30 million people each year, according to national studies carried out by the Census Bureau and the US Department of Agriculture.1 Low-income households are much more likely than others to suffer from hunger and food insecurity since they have fewer resources to buy food.

OBESITY IS GROWING IN ALL POPULATION GROUPS

Simply stated, obesity results when energy intake exceeds energy expenditure. This explanation, however, provides little insight into the important social and environmental causes of higher energy consumption or lower energy expenditures. These causes include energy-dense high-fat foods and larger portion sizes, for example, and lower levels of physical activity (at work, schools, home, and elsewhere).2 • Food insecurity occurs whenever the availability of nutritionally adequate and safe food, or the ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways, is limited or uncertain. • Hunger is defined as the uneasy or painful sensation caused by a recurrent or involuntary lack of food and is a potential, although not necessary, consequence of food insecurity. Over time, hunger may result in malnutrition. • Food insufficiency refers to an inadequate amount of food intake due to lack of resources. Overall, the American population is growing more obese. Some low-income populations are also overweight.3 While the degree to which social, cultural, environmental, and genetic factors have contributed to the increase in obesity is not precisely known, we do know much that can help explain how low-income, food-insecure Americans can be overweight.

CAN OBESITY CO-EXIST WITH HUNGER AND FOOD INSECURITY?

While most Americans are affected by the social and environmental causes of higher energy consumption or lower energy expenditures previously described, many households face the additional burdens of low incomes, which often leave them insufficient money to buy food. Through recent research, scholars now are gaining a better understanding of how food insecurity can be related to obesity. Some of the research in this area is very new, and further research is likely to provide additional insights linking hunger and food insecurity to obesity.

Food insecurity exists when people, due to economic constraints, lack access to enough food to fully meet basic needs at all times. They fear running out of food, and reduce the
quality of their diets and/or reduce the quantity of food they consume. Food insecurity is not limited to those for whom energy supplies are always inadequate, which helps explain why those who are food insecure can also be overweight.

A lack of adequate resources for food could result in weight gain in several ways:

The need to maximize caloric intake. One factor that may contribute to the co-existence of obesity and food insecurity is the need for low-income families to stretch their food money as far as possible. Without adequate resources for food, families must make decisions to maximize the number of calories they can buy so that their members do not suffer from frequent hunger. Low-income families therefore may consume lower-cost foods with relatively higher levels of calories per dollar to stave off hunger when they lack the money or other resources like food stamps to purchase a healthier balance of more nutritious foods.4 The greater the economic constraints, the harder it will be for families to achieve the nutritional quality of foods they desire.5 This in turn affects the overall energy density of the diet.

The trade-off between food quantity and quality. The trade-off between food quantity and quality is shown by research on coping strategies among food-insecure households. This research shows that, along the continuum of typical coping strategies, food quality is generally affected before the quantity of intake. Households reduce food spending by changing the quality or variety of food consumed before they reduce the quantity of food eaten.6 As a result, while families may get enough food to avoid feeling hungry, they also may be poorly nourished because they cannot afford a consistently adequate diet that promotes health and averts obesity. In the short term, the stomach registers that it is full, not whether a meal was nutritious.

Overeating when food is available. In addition, obesity can be an adaptive response to periods when people are unable to get enough to eat. Research indicates that chronic ups and downs in food availability can cause people to eat more, when food is available, than they normally would.7 When money or food stamps are not available for food purchases during part of the month, for example, people may overeat during the days when food is available. Over time, this cycle can result in weight gain.8 Research among food-insecure families also shows that low-income mothers first sacrifice their own nutrition by restricting their food intake during periods of food insufficiency in order to protect their children from hunger.9 This phenomenon may result in eating more than is desirable when food is available, thereby contributing to obesity among poor women.

Physiological changes. Physiological changes may occur to help the body conserve energy when diets are periodically inadequate. The body can compensate for periodic food shortages by becoming more efficient at storing more calories as fat.10

COSTLY CONSEQUENCES

With fewer resources to buy food, or to obtain health care or other preventive or remedial interventions, the poor are particularly susceptible to damage from hunger/food insecurity, obesity, or both. Both hunger/food insecurity and obesity have costly direct and indirect consequences. Obesity is a risk factor for heart disease, diabetes, several types of cancer, and other chronic health problems. It also is associated with premature death and disability, increased health care costs, and lost productivity.11

Hunger and food insecurity impair health status, making people less likely to resist illness and more likely to become sick or hospitalized. Hunger is widely known to impair cognitive or mental function in children, leading to a reduced ability to learn and lower grades and test scores. Lack of adequate resources for food also negatively affects behavior, especially among children, leading to a greater need for mental health and special education services.12 By impairing health status and cognitive function, hunger/ food insecurity and obesity not only limit the well-being of individuals, but also undermine the nation’s investments in education and our need for a more productive and competitive workforce.

SOLUTIONS TO HUNGER, FOOD INSECURITY, AND OBESITY

Both obesity and hunger/food insecurity require solutions that include regular access to nutritionally adequate food. Federal nutrition programs – food stamps, WIC, and child nutrition programs like school lunch and breakfast – historically have protected the nation’s most vulnerable people from severe hunger and malnutrition. Today, federal nutrition programs continue to be vital for health, education, and economic well-being, and are critical lifelines for families struggling at low-wage jobs. Eligibility for these programs needs to be expanded to reach more in need. Suggestions that food allotments should be reduced, on the grounds that nutrition programs contribute to obesity among the poor because they provide too much food, are without scientific merit. Federal nutrition programs provide access to food, and, when working properly, can help families achieve food security. In addition, evidence shows that each of the major federal nutrition programs improves nutrition:

• The Food Stamp Program is the largest nutrition program for poor households. The program increases food security and enhances household nutrition. Each dollar in food stamps increases a household’s Healthy Eating Index score (an indicator of overall dietary quality).13 However, the Food Stamp Program only provides 79 cents per person per meal, on average. Because benefits are so low, and because food stamp households have such low incomes (nearly 90 percent living on incomes below the poverty level14), it is very difficult for them to purchase an adequate diet over the longer term. Many recipients run out of food stamps and money to buy food before the end of each month. Studies show that this shortfall leads to food shortages at some point each month.15 This puts them precisely in the situation referred to earlier: they face cycles of food availability and restriction, or forgo a balanced diet and depend on a few inexpensive staples to meet their families’ nutrition needs on a monthly basis.

• Children who participate in the school lunch and breakfast programs, compared with students who participate in neither program, consume more than twice as many servings of milk and of fruits and vegetables combined, and one quarter the number of servings of soda and fruit-flavored drinks.16 Increasingly, the programs offer more healthful meals with a variety of foods and appropriate portion sizes. The school lunch and breakfast programs are required to serve meals that are in compliance with the US Dietary Guidelines for fat and saturated fat. USDA studies show a steady reduction in the percent of calories from fat and saturated fat in school meals since the early 1990s.17 If there are nutrition problems in the school cafeteria, they often come from the dining environment – less nutritious foods that vending machines and a la carte lines offer in competition with the federal lunch program; the lack of time and space to eat; and long lines. 3

• WIC (the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children) provides food packages geared to supplement the diets of low-income women, infants and children with key nutrients that are most likely to be lacking in their diets. WIC offers nutrition education especially targeted to the needs of low-income mothers and young children. WIC has been shown to improve the dietary intake of pregnant and post-partum women and young children.18

• The Child and Adult Care Food Program (CACFP) provides nutritious meals and snacks to children in child care programs. Established meal pattern requirements and regulations ensure that the foods served through CACFP meet children’s daily energy and nutrient needs. Research shows that children who receive CACFP meals and snacks have higher nutrient levels, and consume more servings of milk and vegetables, and fewer servings of fats and sweets, than children in child care programs that do not participate in the program.19

A REFORM AGENDA TO ADDRESS BOTH HUNGER AND OBESITY Strengthening federal nutrition programs requires enhancing, not reducing, benefits. Federal nutrition programs also should be improved nutritionally. The poor have a special need for stronger nutrition programs with increased access and availability, and more adequate benefits that would allow families to purchase healthier foods. Greater availability and nutritional quality of vital federal food programs such as food stamps, school lunch and breakfast, WIC and child care food can go a long way toward reducing hunger, food insecurity, and obesity in America. These programs can also support increased physical activity by children and their families. At the same time, our nation can address the more fundamental causes of hunger by focusing on more adequate wages, affordable housing, and health care and child care to reduce poverty and support the efforts of families to be productive and self-sufficient. Improving the nutritional status of households through these means will do much to ward off hunger and food insecurity, and also combat increasing rates of obesity, thereby improving the health and security of millions of Americans.

Developed by: Center on Hunger and Poverty and Food Research and Action Center 4
1 Nord, M., Andrews, M., & Carlson, S. (2002). Household Food Security in the United States, 2001. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Economic Research Service, Food and Rural Economics Division. http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr29/ 2 Flegal, K.M., Carroll, M.D., Kuczmarski, R.J., & Johnson, C.L. (1998). Overweight and obesity trends in the United States: prevalence and trends, 1960-1994. International Journal of Obesity, 22, 39-47. 3 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (2001). The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Prevent and Decrease Overweight and Obesity. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, Office of the Surgeon General. http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics...lltoAction.pdf 4 Basiotis, P.P. (1992). Validity of the Self-Reported Food Sufficiency Status Item in the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Consumption Surveys. In V.A. Haldeman (Ed.), American Council on Consumer Interests 38th Annual Conference: The Proceedings. Columbia, MO: American Council on Consumer Interests. 5 Darmon, N., Ferguson, E.L., & Briend, A. (2002). A cost constraint alone has adverse effects on food selection and nutrient density: an analysis of human diets by linear programming. Journal of Nutrition, 132, 3764-3771. 6 Radimer, K.L, Olson, C.M., Greene, J.C., Campbell, C.C., & Habicht, J. (1992). Understanding hunger and developing indicators to assess it in women and children. Journal of Nutrition Education, 24, 36S-45S. 7 Polivy, J. (1996). Psychological consequences of food restriction. Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 96, 589-592. 8 Townsend, M.S., Peerson, J., Love, B., Achterberg, C. & Murphy, S.P. (2001). Food insecurity is positively related to overweight in women. Journal of Nutrition, 131, 1738-1745. 9 Radimer, K.L, Olson, C.M., Greene, J.C., Campbell, C.C., & Habicht, J. (1992). Understanding hunger and developing indicators to assess it in women and children. Journal of Nutrition Education, 24, 36S-45S. 10 Wardlaw, G.M. & Insel, P.M.(1996). Perspectives in Nutrition. Third Edition. New York, NY: WCB/McGraw-Hill. 11 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. (2001). The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Prevent and Decrease Overweight and Obesity. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, Office of the Surgeon General. http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics...lltoAction.pdf 12 Center on Hunger and Poverty. (2002). The Consequences of Hunger and Food Insecurity for Children. Waltham, MA: Heller School for Social Policy and Management, Brandeis University. http://www.centeronhunger.org/pdf/Co...esofHunger.pdf 13 Basiotis, P.P., Kramer-LeBlanc, C.S., & Kennedy, E.T. (1998). Maintaining nutrition security and diet quality: the role of the Food Stamp Program and WIC. Family Economics and Nutrition Review, 11 (1 & 2), 4-16. 14 Rosso, R. (2003). Characteristics of Food Stamp Households: Fiscal Year 2001. Alexandria, VA: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Food and Nutrition Service, Office of Analysis, Nutrition and Evaluation. http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Pu...CharReport.pdf 15 Kim, M., Ohls, J. & Cohen, R. (2001). Hunger in America 2001 - National Report Prepared for America’s Second Harvest. Princeton, NJ: Mathematica Policy Research, Inc. http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/PDFs/hunger2001.pdf 16 Gleason, P. & Suitor, C. (2001). Children’s Diets in the Mid-1990s: Dietary Intake and Its Relationship with School Meal Participation. Alexandria, VA: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Food and Nutrition Service, Office of Analysis, Nutrition and Evaluation. http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Pu...S/ChilDiet.pdf 17 Fox, M.K., Crepinsek, M.K., Connor, P., & Battaglia, M. (2001). School Nutrition Dietary Assessment Study—II, Summary of Findings. Alexandria, VA: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Food and Nutrition Service, Office of Analysis, Nutrition and Evaluation. http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Pu...SNDAIIfind.pdf 18 Rush, D. (1988). The National WIC Evaluation: An Evaluation of the Special Supplemental Food Program for Women, Infants and Children. Research Triangle Park, N.C.: Research Triangle Institute. 19 Bruening, K., Gilbride, J.A., Passanante, M.R., & McClowry, S. (1999). Dietary intake and health outcomes among young children attending 2 urban day-care centers. Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 99, 1529-1535.
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Old 02-04-2004, 10:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Perhaps these definitions of "hunger" will be more palatable:

Thirty-three million people including 13 million children live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents one in ten households in the United States.(1)

3.1 percent of U.S. households experience hunger: they frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. Nearly 8.5 million people, including 2.9 million children, live in these homes. (1)

7.3 percent of U.S. households are at risk of hunger: they have lower quality diets or must resort to seeking emergency food because they cannot always afford the food they need. 24.7 million people, including 9.9 million children, live in these homes. (1)

Millions of poor children suffer from chronic under-nutrition, the under-consumption of essential nutrients and food energy. The risk of nutrient deficiencies that can lead to serious health problems, including impaired cognitive development, growth failure, physical weakness, anemia and stunting. (2)

A survey of America’s Second Harvest national network of food banks in late 2001 and early 2002 found that 86% had seen an increase in requests for food assistance during the past year. (3)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
(1). ERS Food Assistance and Nutrition Research Report No. (FANRR) 21, United States Department of Agriculture, March 2002

(2). Tufts University School of Nutrition -- Center on Hunger, Poverty & Nutrition Policy, March 1995

(3). America’s Second Harvest, Local Impact Survey

---

Maybe you don't think it's a big deal that 20+ million people in this country have to worry with some frequency about getting food, but in a country where we pay people NOT to grow food because we have so much, it's unconscionable. And if you want to look at it purely from a public health perspective, it's a costly problem that DOES EXIST and needs to be remedied.

I happen to see hungry people frequently. Some of them have been laid off and have to choose between food and rent. Some of them work low-wage jobs and don't qualify for food stamps. Some of them are elderly and have to choose between prescriptions and food. It does exist, regardless of poorly-worded surveys.
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Old 02-04-2004, 10:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I couldnt specifically comment on America, there is limited starvation in the UK, but it is quite rare - and it would be exceptionally rare for someone to be starved to death by cause of poverty - although poor diet may well cause ill health for very many low income families and homeless people.
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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You must live someplace with no homeless, Ustwo. We have lotsa hungry people here in LA- not that I'm an homeless "lover" or anything, but most of the ones I see milling about aren't obese.

We also have many, many illegals who are in good working shape, not fat and lazy. I'm thinkin' they must be hungry to stand around all day waiting for a $20 a day hard labor job.

Oh yeah.. the other factor that might be missed is psychological. Rich/upper class folks have a sense of "style" or "class", they see themselves as upper crust, and try to stay rich and pretty... or handsome. (Think of the cheerleader types in most high schools, usually girls of priveledge in middle class areas) Poor folks know no one gives a crap about them, they're on the bottom rung of society, so who gives a rack? Might as well kill some more Chee-tohs. Oh, and for some, the richer you are, the less you have to work, so you can hit the gym more. Not for all- plenty of hard working rich folks out there.
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Old 02-04-2004, 03:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ustwo, are you wondering, like i am, why all these hungry people don't just eat cake?

Maybe you don't see a lot of hungry people in your life. I know with your multiple degrees that you're smart enough to be aware the fact that "Well, i haven't really noticed any" doesn't really hold up as evidence of any kind in this context. Otherwise i have another observable truth: I haven't really noticed any people complaining about how high their taxes are, i guess that means that the "high taxes" that conservatives always complain about don't really exist, right?
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Old 02-04-2004, 06:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scipio
It's not quite as cheap when you factor in the need to cook it, the time you spend at the grocery store, etc. There are hidden costs.

I think Ustwo is giving us a bit of a straw man. Hunger isn't an issue in the campaign. If you want a bona fide democratic talking point regarding the down-trodden, look no further than John Edward's rhetoric about the poor. There are something like 30 million people in America below the poverty line. As it stands, our economy is distributing the benefits disproportionately to the wealthy. (The rate of income growth among the rich is higher than that same rate among the poor and middle class)

The thing we need to be concerned about is that their children are extended the same chance at success as the children of the middle class.
Everybody can go to a public school. I don't know about other states, but in florida, if you earn a 3.5 GPA and do 75 hours of community service, score at least a 1270 on the SAT (if you have a 3.5 gpa...this shouldnt be hard) than you qualify for a 100% tuittion and fees scholorship to any florida university. Everybody has the same chance at this....its up to the child to work hard at it, if they dont...than they dont deserve it over somebody else just because they come from a poor family.

(Sorry for the semi off-topicness of this)
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:13 AM   #20 (permalink)
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ya know, i only work 3 hours a day. 4 days a week, and i make enough money to pay my rent, eat, and have a cell phone, pay car insurance, electric and maintain a FFXI membership.

how you spead your dollar is very very important if you want to get by on as little as I do. I try to stay away from fast food, but ya know, jack in the box has some really good food for a dollar if thats all you are down to.

I just aquired a 2nd job so I wont be starving, not that I was worried about that before or anything :\
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Old 02-07-2004, 06:22 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Take a trip down to a poorer region of Latin America some time. Notice how the poor peasants who can't afford enough to eat have rather puffy faces. Why? Starch is the main staple of their diet. They're unhealthy due to the fact that they can't eat, yet they don't look like skeletons.

Gee I guess those ethiopian kids you've seen on TV are really eating well, 'cause their stomachs usually jut way out from their bodies.

I think it's pretty stupid to say that because you've never seen a documented problem, it doesn't exist. I've never seen a rape, yet I know it happens.

I also find it interesting that conservatives are so loathe to fund programs that help US citizens, yet they'll fund the crap out of rebuilding some country that they've just spent a fortune conquering. That was one of the more ironic statements in the last state of the union. "We're building hospitals in Iraq." Sure, asshole, you're building them there and closing them down here.

We have an amazing talent in this country for finding and making bungled attempts to fix the problems of every other country on the planet while sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and pretending our own problems do not exist.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:26 AM   #22 (permalink)
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you know, i just reread the first post on this thread and something came to mind that i heard a long time ago:

Republicans love America as a child loves a mother. She can do no wrong and the relationship consists of a blind love. The relationship is an immature type love that sees no wrong.

Democrats love America as a wife loves her husband. She sees flaws and tries to help make the relationship stronger and knows it can be better and works constantly towards that. The relationship is a more mature view of love that knows America is not perfect, but it can be made better than it is right now.

And I know there are exceptions to this rule, but in general, that seems to be a major difference in how the parties view America.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:07 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Driving to the Grocery store ~2-3 dollars including wear and tear.
Your time? I'll be generous and say 15 bucks. Gas bill for the month of cooking? 20 dollars.

Now those costs are spread out over an entire month.

Now you got:
At home. A nutritious meal. $.50-1.00 breakfast. $2-3 lunch. $3-4 dinner. (excluding steak night)

A meal at McD? $5.50 or more each time.

You must be one of those people who think half a cup of cereal is a healthy nutritious breakfast.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:48 AM   #24 (permalink)
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This thread is starting to get a little too personal.

Please keep it on track, everyone.
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Old 02-07-2004, 04:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
Ustwo, are you wondering, like i am, why all these hungry people don't just eat cake?
Where ARE these hungry, yet hard working Americans?

They don't exist.
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Where ARE these hungry, yet hard working Americans?

They don't exist.
.....


did you even glance at lurkette's posts?
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Isn't it Ironic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo

I am forced to wonder, WHERE are these starving people? I live in a major metropolitan area and I've never seen one. We are told they are everywhere yet are they invisible?
Can't find any poor people huh.

Maybe you need to get out more.

Here's a link the US census bureau that states that there are 35 million americans living below the poverty line. I guess they must be invisible.

Or let me guess, the census bureau of the united states is a left wing rag that can not be trusted.

Read it for yourself.....

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/.../cb03-153.html
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Old 02-07-2004, 08:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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hey, i can say, i didn't see them in my town until i walked door to door on a get out the vote program in 2002...

Then i saw them all
and they vote..

and they vote with amazing consistency...
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Old 02-07-2004, 08:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Thread about half way to locked.

You guys want me to go ahead and shut it down or are you going to knock it off with the sarcasm?
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:28 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Re: Isn't it Ironic?

Quote:
Originally posted by james t kirk

Here's a link the US census bureau that states that there are 35 million americans living below the poverty line. I guess they must be invisible.
Poverty in the US is wealth in a great portion of the world. There are poor in the US relative to the 'norm' in the US, but the poor in the US are NOT starving, and by the same data are rarely even hungry. Right now the biggest health problem with the poor in the US is they are to fat! I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:57 PM   #31 (permalink)
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dude...try living on $5000 a year in america

then add 2 kids

nuff said, if you don't see it, maybe you need to walk around town and look closely and don't forget, they are people..just like you.
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