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Old 02-12-2004, 10:41 AM   #1 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
Does anyone know howmany people were killed

In the suicide attack on the World Trade Centre on 9/11

And how many civilian losses were suffered during the attack on and occupation of Iraq by America and the UK?
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Between 8000-11000 Iraqis


http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

around 2,800 civilians in WTC

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...date=2/12/2004
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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538 Americans and 58 Brits; 399 and 25, respectively, since "Mission Accomplished"

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by monkeydriven
Between 8000-11000 Iraqis


http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

around 2,800 civilians in WTC

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...date=2/12/2004
Chuckle, uh huh.
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ustwo, I am not seeing the joke?
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Siting sources like these as fact make baby jesus cry.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Plus taking the deaths out of context. I don't know if those figures listed discern military/baathist/insurgent casulities.
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
Ustwo, I am not seeing the joke?
What Seaver said.
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Perhaps a better question would be...

Why do Iraqi civilian deaths only concern the left when they can blame the US for them?
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
Perhaps a better question would be...

Why do Iraqi civilian deaths only concern the left when they can blame the US for them?
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Kadath I am patient with you, but you have had very little to offer over the last few months. I do thank you for pointing out 2 spelling mistakes over that time period.


It is a very legitimate question on my part and leads to the real source of the angst I feel here.
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Old 02-13-2004, 01:23 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seaver
Siting sources like these as fact make baby jesus cry.
Well, since the USA doesn't count how much civilians they have killed its the only source we have, I'm afraid. Or can you provide a more reliable source?
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:47 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Iraqi civilian deaths concern me whether they are killed by Baarthist supporters or the American army.

At the moment, stories are coming out concerning prisoners of war beaten to death and tortured by British soliders... is THIS the war we went to fight?

What interests me is that the attack on the WTC is presented as one of the most outrageous atrocities ever committed, whereas when far more people in Iraq are killed by American bombs in Iraq, it is somehow seen as an accident, as "collateral damage", some unfortunate but unavoidable side effect of having to remove Saddam Hussain (which we had to do o course, since he could have struck Canterbury or Hemmel Hempstead with chemical weapons at 45 minutes notice... oh, except he couldnt actually, because the Iraqi chemical weapons programme turned out to be pathetic and unable to be used even in combat)

There were a lot of ways Saddam Hussain could have been removed - the best would have been to have given military support to his opponents in Iraq in 1992. America didnt, they left them high and dry and allowed Hussain to massacre them and consolidate his power... then followed the sanctions, which coupled with the corruption of the Baarth regime, caused probably a million deaths in Iraq. Both the Iraqi regime and the West share the blame equally for these deaths.

And now Iraqi's are being killed every day, by civil war and by the occupation forces... I wonder, how many more Iraqi's need to die for people to consider this an equal atrocity to the attack on the WTC attack. It then would be a simple equation, we would know how MUCH more important a westerners life is than an Iraqi's life.
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Old 02-14-2004, 10:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Famous your right about 1992. But we didnt do it. Should we have left Saddam at the helm?
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Old 02-14-2004, 12:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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heh.

An interesting statistic would be how fewer Iraqi casualties there were in the US/iraq war, compared to Hussein's mass-murder in years past. Relatively, the number of casualties on both sides in this war is extremely low.
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by seretogis
heh.

An interesting statistic would be how fewer Iraqi casualties there were in the US/iraq war, compared to Hussein's mass-murder in years past. Relatively, the number of casualties on both sides in this war is extremely low.
A very Orwellian perspective. And I believe also a false one. Hussain may have been responsible for murders, but nothing like on this scale.
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
A very Orwellian perspective. And I believe also a false one. Hussain may have been responsible for murders, but nothing like on this scale.

You're right of course.

The scale of murders committed by Saddam Hussein were much worse.

Link

Quote:
Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power.
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks for the reality checks, Lebell.
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Old 02-15-2004, 06:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Ditto
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
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people killed in a war against Iran are hardly "murdered" by Saddam Hussain, they were casualties of war.

And "between 70 and 125" is a difference of 440,000 deaths overall (assuming 8000 days)... these figures hardly sound precise.
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Old 02-16-2004, 01:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Forgive me for being a dork but I don't know how to do the quote thingy.

Anyway, to point out some thoughts on what is being said.

Saddam fought a needless war against Iran BUT OUR war against Saddam was legitimate. I find that laughable as Dubya changes his reasons every time the previous reason is shown to be a lie.

We're going in because of Axis of Evil. (Under that theory we should have gone into N. Korea and Iran also). And Saddam was a part of 9/11.

Later...... We never linked him to 9/11, but he's got WMD's and he's an IMMINENT THREAT.

Later.............. We never said he had them and we definately noone in the White House ever said Imminent threat.

So don't compare our war as a legitimate one.

I just think Bush is stretching to find an excuse over this war and it's costs. And his followers are so full of hate and anger towards democrats and anyone that would question the war that they'll support anything he does and will turn a blind eye to the reasoning Bush gives.

It's a deadly road we are embarking on and one that soon we will not be able to turn around and get off of it.
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Old 02-16-2004, 02:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
people killed in a war against Iran are hardly "murdered" by Saddam Hussain, they were casualties of war.

And "between 70 and 125" is a difference of 440,000 deaths overall (assuming 8000 days)... these figures hardly sound precise.
*shakes head*

Whatever.

I am washing my hands of this conversation.

Good day to you.
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Old 02-16-2004, 02:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Strange, I think your point was to present the loss of life on both as being equally atrocious, however most of us feel that "intent" is the true measure of conduct.
The WTC bombing was a mass murder, meant to be as such. There was never any other intention but to kill innocent Americans. The target had no military value, nor did the structure have any entity that was diametrically opposed to the radical Islamic movement. Its fall had no strategic value.
Our mission, to route the terrorist threat, is less definable than say a strict ground campaign, but we only pursue military targets. If a radical Islamic group held the position over us that we hold over Iraq, the death toll would be in the millions.
Face it Strange, you have a good heart, but not all the world feels as you do. As a westerner, the radical Islamic would kill you for just being a westerner, and celebrate it. Yet, at least in the USA, our mid eastern emigrants aren't being hunted in the streets.
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Old 02-16-2004, 02:37 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Why did Saddam go into Iran? Because he was afraid of a shiite revolution. Not in anyway shape or form legitimate.
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Old 02-16-2004, 02:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Excuse me.. sorry to interupt, BUT

Why are we linking the World Trade Center deaths with the invasion of Iraq?
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Old 02-16-2004, 04:43 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
people killed in a war against Iran are hardly "murdered" by Saddam Hussain, they were casualties of war.

And "between 70 and 125" is a difference of 440,000 deaths overall (assuming 8000 days)... these figures hardly sound precise.
If Iranian deaths during that war don't count why do Iraqi casualties during this war count?
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Well, this weekend marks 400+ US deaths since "Mission Accomplished"

Happy President's Day....
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