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Old 02-17-2004, 06:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Coulter & Hannity...pretty Embarassing regardless of race, creed, color or Politics

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Quote:
Cleland Drops A Political Grenade
February 11, 2004

Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War

FORMER Sen. Max Cleland is the Democrats' designated hysteric about George Bush's National Guard service. A triple amputee and Vietnam veteran, Cleland is making the rounds on talk TV, basking in the affection of liberals who have suddenly become jock-sniffers for war veterans, and working himself into a lather about President Bush's military service. Citing such renowned military experts as Molly Ivins, Cleland indignantly demands further investigation into Bush's service with the Texas Air National Guard.


Bush's National Guard service is the most thoroughly investigated event since the Kennedy assassination. But the Democrats will accept only two possible conclusions to their baseless accusations: (1) Bush was "AWOL," or (2) the matter needs further investigation.


Thirty years ago, Bush was granted an honorable discharge from the National Guard –– which would seem to put the matter to rest. But liberals want proof that Bush actually deserved his honorable discharge. (Since when did the party of Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd get so obsessed with honor?)

On "Hardball" Monday night, Cleland demanded to see Bush's pay stubs for the disputed period of time, May 1972 to May 1973. "If he was getting paid for his weekend warrior work," Cleland said, "he should have some pay stubs to show it."


The next day, the White House produced the pay stubs. This confirmed what has been confirmed 1 million times before: After taking the summer off, Bush reported for duty nine times between Nov. 29, 1972, and May 24, 1973 -- more than enough times to fulfill his Guard duties. (And nine times more than Bill Clinton, Barney Frank or Chuck Schumer did during the same period.)


All this has been reported -- with documentation -- many times by many news organizations. George magazine had Bush's National Guard records 3 1/2 years ago.


All available evidence keeps confirming Bush's honorable service with the Guard, which leads liberals to conclude ... further investigation is needed! No evidence will ever be enough evidence. That Bush skipped out on his National Guard service is one of liberals' many nondisprovable beliefs, like global warming.


Cleland also expressed outrage that Bush left the National Guard nine months early in 1973 to go to Harvard Business School. On "Hardball," Cleland testily remarked: "I just know a whole lot of veterans who would have loved to have worked things out with the military and adjusted their tour of duty." (Cleland already knows one -- Al Gore!)


When Bush left the National Guard in 1973 to go to business school, the war was over. It might as well have been 1986. Presidents Kennedy and Johnson had already lost the war, and President Nixon had ended it with the Paris peace accords in January. If Bush had demanded active combat, there was no war to send him to.


To put this in perspective, by 1973, John Kerry had already accused American soldiers of committing war crimes in Vietnam, thrown someone else's medals to the ground in an anti-war demonstration, and married his first heiress. Bill Clinton had just finished three years of law school and was about to embark upon a political career -- which would include campaign events with Max Cleland.


Moreover, if we're going to start delving into exactly who did what back then, maybe Max Cleland should stop allowing Democrats to portray him as a war hero who lost his limbs taking enemy fire on the battlefields of Vietnam.


Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix. In fact, Cleland could have dropped a grenade on his foot as a National Guardsman –- or what Cleland sneeringly calls "weekend warriors." Luckily for Cleland's political career and current pomposity about Bush, he happened to do it while in Vietnam.


There is more than a whiff of dishonesty in how Cleland is presented to the American people. Terry McAuliffe goes around saying, "Max Cleland, a triple amputee who left three limbs on the battlefield of Vietnam," was thrown out of office because Republicans "had the audacity to call Max Cleland unpatriotic." Mr. Cleland, a word of advice: When a slimy weasel like Terry McAuliffe is vouching for your combat record, it's time to sound "retreat" on that subject.


Needless to say, no one ever challenged Cleland's "patriotism." His performance in the Senate was the issue, which should not have come as a bolt out of the blue inasmuch as he was running for re-election to the Senate. Sen. Cleland had refused to vote for the Homeland Security bill unless it was chock-full of pro-union perks that would have jeopardized national security. ("OH MY GOD! A HIJACKED PLANE IS HEADED FOR THE WHITE HOUSE!" "Sorry, I'm on my break. Please call back in two hours.")


The good people of Georgia -- who do not need lectures on admiring military service –- gave Cleland one pass for being a Vietnam veteran. He didn't get a lifetime pass.

Indeed, if Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. senator in the first place. Maybe he'd be the best pharmacist in Atlanta, but not a U.S. senator. He got into office on the basis of serving in Vietnam and was thrown out for his performance as a senator.


Cleland wore the uniform, he was in Vietnam, and he has shown courage by going on to lead a productive life. But he didn't "give his limbs for his country," or leave them "on the battlefield." There was no bravery involved in dropping a grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight. That could have happened in the Texas National Guard -- which Cleland denigrates while demanding his own sanctification.
This guy has the largest audience out there and his methods are the equivalent of a third grader.

Last edited by Bookman; 02-17-2004 at 06:50 AM..
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Old 02-17-2004, 06:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Why did you put Colmes in the title?
What did he have to do with this?
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Old 02-17-2004, 06:51 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Why did you put Colmes in the title?
What did he have to do with this?
Changed it as you replied...TYPO
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Old 02-17-2004, 06:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Aah, ok.

Ann is just being her usual queen bitch self.

Several men from Clelands platoon have come forward and said something to the effect, and this is going off of memory, That they were not partying at the time, the grenade did not come from any of them, it was from an outside source, and Cleland saved their lives by picking it up in an attempt to get rid of it
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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This guy shapes American political thought...for people who dont care to think at least.
When he has an intelligent guest he railroads them and they cant get any thought out.
To mock a man who lost three limbs (most likely in his case lying about details) in Vietnam in effort to support GWB is spineless.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Is there something wrong with that woman?
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Only her Psychologist knows, what, for sure.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:16 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Several men from Clelands platoon have come forward and said something to the effect, and this is going off of memory, That they were not partying at the time, the grenade did not come from any of them, it was from an outside source, and Cleland saved their lives by picking it up in an attempt to get rid of it
If that is true, as seems likely, then I am once again reading an article and underestimating what a truly vile human being Coulter is. I've got to get out of that habit.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Like all political portrayals (on both sides) it's unbalanced and disregards the fact that his actions four days prior to the grenade explosion garnered him a Silver Star at Khe Sahn. Certainly the Democrats and the Cleland camp prefer to portray losing the limbs in a grand heroic manner which does not seem to be the case.

The fact is Cleland is a war hero. Not for having lost limbs but for his actions at other times during his career. There is a bit of dishonesty from all sides in this.





From the Atlanta Constitution:

"While disembarking from a transport helicopter [on April 8 near Khe Sanh], Capt. Cleland reached for a grenade he believed had become dislodged from his web gear. Later it was discovered that the grenade belonged to a young soldier new to the theater. That soldier had improperly prepared the grenade pin for easy detonation and had dropped it while coming off the helicopter. The grenade exploded and severely injured Capt. Cleland."

Here's a first-hand account:

"On April 4*, 1968, Price was with the Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 1st Marines.
"Charlie Company was opening up Route 9 going into Khe Sanh, near the demilitarized zone between the then-separate North and South Vietnams, and had secured a mountaintop.
"Cleland, a captain in the Army Signal Corps, and his team flew by helicopter to the hill that Price and Charlie Company held to set up a radio relay tower.
"When the helicopter landed, Cleland and his soldiers jumped off and the helicopter immediately ascended.
"Then there was an explosion.
"Price, who was digging a foxhole, thought the blast might have been an enemy mortar round. It was common for the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese to shoot at landing helicopters, Price said.
"This time, a soldier was severely wounded. It was Cleland and he had lost an arm and a leg. His other leg was badly mangled."
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Ann Coulter is a disgrace to intelligent discourse. Fox News disgraces itself by repeatedly inviting her to spew her venom on its network "news" shows.
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Old 02-17-2004, 08:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Cleland responds to Coulters slander.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=42979

Quote:
2/15/04
Former Sen. Max Cleland defended his military service record Saturday night in response to comments from columnist and television commenter Ann Coulter that accused him of playing up injuries he suffered in the Vietnam War for political gain.

Coulter, in a column published this week, said that Cleland, who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam, is no war hero, but rather a victim of a tragic, accidental grenade explosion who plays up his amputations for political gain.

“If Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. Senator in the first place. Maybe he’d be the best pharmacist in Atlanta,” Coulter said in her column, published on February 11.

“He didn’t ‘give his limbs for his country,’ or leave them ‘on the battlefield,” Coulter said. “There was no bravery involved in dropping the grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight.

In fact, Cleland was wounded picking up a grenade that someone else dropped, during what he says was a combat mission.

“I volunteered for a combat mission with the 1st Air Calvary division going into break the siege at Khe Sahn, and if that isn’t a combat mission, you ought to ask some of the people that were there and the 200 guys that were killed in that mission.”

As he campaigns for Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, Cleland has questioned President Bush’s military record and touted Kerry’s, who served as Navy lieutenant during the Vietnam War.

“(Bush) goes into Iraq and then three weeks in the battle stands on an aircraft carrier, dressing up pretending to be a super hero, and the guy hardly showed up for drills in Alabama,” Cleland says. “He got favorable treatment in Vietnam.”

Rusty Paul, a Georgian Republican Party strategist, said Coulter crossed the line with her comments.

“You can’t take away from Max Cleland his record of service to this country and the sacrifice that he’s made, regardless of the circumstances. To me, that’s out of bounds to talk about that,” he said.

Paul, however, said attacking the politics of Cleland and Kerry was well within bounds. “I think the voters would prefer to talk about what George Bush’s view for the future is versus John Kerry’s rather than what happened 30 years ago,” he said.

President Bush released all his Vietnam-era records Friday to counter Democrats’ suggestions that he shirked his duty in the Texas National Guard.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:36 AM   #12 (permalink)
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So the whole problem is that she called Cleland's wound accidental?

Also what does Hannity have to do with this?

Cleland is an asshole and just because you were wounded doesn't make you immune to criticism. Hell he had a fund raiser by Jane Fonda, I bet the Vietnam vets would love to know that one.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:02 AM   #13 (permalink)
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No the whole problem is that she denegrates Cleland and his service. She pretty much implies it was HIS stupid mistake and that he allowed one of HIS grenades to fall. And then she says that he is falsly applying the hero status to himself. First, he does not call himself a hero. Those who know him and know what he has done correctly apply that moniker to him. What he did was heroic because he volunteered for a dangerous combat mission which he unfortunately didn't make it too. And his actions quite possible saved serveral servicemens lives.

This information is easily available and has been available for years. Ann Coulter touts her ability to use Lexis Nexis yet was unable to find these simple truths? No, she is outright slandering a fine american. She knows what happened and she knows what regard Cleland has in the Veterans community. She just takes GREAT pleasure in destroying innocent, good men.

If anyone deserves the succubus moniker, Ann does.

Cleland doesn't try to hide his record. Kerry had a passing association with Jane, a woman who has since apologized over and over for what she calls a deception. Kerry's organizational association is well known and he still rates high among veterans. What he was doing in that group is trying to end a war they were suffering in. Nothing to denegrate there for a Veteran.
For Jane, her only goal was to try and end the war, not see americans suffer. She was used and duped.
I'm not trying to say what she did was ok, but she didn't do what she did with any kind of negative intents for americans.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:13 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt


For Jane, her only goal was to try and end the war, not see americans suffer. She was used and duped.
I'm not trying to say what she did was ok, but she didn't do what she did with any kind of negative intents for americans.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Fonda should have been tried for treason. What she did in North Vietnam and to our POW's there is unforgivable.

But thats a different subject for a different and pointless thread, and one you would look very foolish in if you take the above stance, so lets just drop it.

As for Cleland, exactly how he was injured seems in dispute, but I'm willing to accept his version. I'd love to see if Coulter has a source for hers, I might even try to email her for the hell of it.

What Cleland does after the war, much like Kerry, is what bothers me.

As for Kerry, if he thought erroding the support for the troops at home, with fake wittnesses and false testimony was done to save US servicemen lives, he is even dumber then you think GWB is.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:40 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I find it ridiculous that people find "anti-war" to be "anti-american".
This is a disease of the mind, like HIV or something.
If wars were not called wars...but called Empirical outings or Domination conventions...I wonder how many people would support them? Probably more than we have now supporting this war. Call a spade a spade. We have never fought a war at home....only "WARS" to protect our interests and the principle of Democracy.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ustwo
As for Cleland, exactly how he was injured seems in dispute, but I'm willing to accept his version. I'd love to see if Coulter has a source for hers, I might even try to email her for the hell of it.
"willing to accept his version"... It's not his version, it's the fact. I wonder, Ustwo, if Gallileo was a Democrat, would you ask for a second opinion when he told you the Earth was round?

Vietnam was a mistake, as the vast majority of Americans would agree. Cleland and Kerry really have the most defensible positions on Vietnam: They were against it (again, like a majority of Americans), but they also served there, on the ground, and didn't dodge out of it.

Also, I think the article was by Hannity, it was just posted on Coulter's website (probably because no self-respecting editorial page would print it)
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:48 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Funny how "Treason" is being thrown around in today's time.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:49 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Cleland responds to Coulters slander.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=42979
I don't see any significant response from him here. He says he volunteered for a combat mission, that does not mean he was on one when the grenade exploded. He then goes off on a tangent about Bush and the Alabama National Guard.
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Last edited by onetime2; 02-17-2004 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:53 AM   #19 (permalink)
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It is all ridiculous.
Whether he blew himself up to be discharged or not.
He was THERE. He was decorated.
You dont see any president in the USA putting the uniform on for political reasons.
This is what this is all about.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:57 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I believe your account you gave says it. He was preparing to go on the mission, as the helicopter they stepped out of was taking off, he saw a grenade on the ground with no pin. He bent over to pick it up and ultimately shielded his fellow soldiers from a blast that could have killed many people.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:05 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
I believe your account you gave says it. He was preparing to go on the mission, as the helicopter they stepped out of was taking off, he saw a grenade on the ground with no pin. He bent over to pick it up and ultimately shielded his fellow soldiers from a blast that could have killed many people.
According to the account I found, he thought it had fallen off his web belt and was picking it up. Nothing about doing it to shield his fellow soldiers and the like as his camp and others like to insinuate. He was not yet on a combat mission but in preparation to go on one.

It's really only nitpicking on both sides. Does Cleland play up his war wounds? Yep. Does the author of the posted article point that out? Yep. Does the author of the article imply that Cleland isn't a war hero? Yep. Is every bit of this wrong on some level? Absolutely.

Those berating the author of the article are overlooking Cleland's exaggeration and those berating Cleland are overlooking the rest of his record.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:10 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bookman
It is all ridiculous.
Whether he blew himself up to be discharged or not.
He was THERE. He was decorated.
You dont see any president in the USA putting the uniform on for political reasons.
This is what this is all about.
I don't really know what you mean by "putting the uniform on for political reasons" but certainly politicians have and will continue to use their military service for political pandering/gain. From Washington to Bush/Kerry they all do it.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:20 AM   #23 (permalink)
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What exactly, has Cleland exagerated?

I don't believe he is playing up his war wounds. I think he does demand a measure of respect for what he left on the battle field for this country. Regardless of whether or not he was in battle or preparing for it, he volunteered for a combat mission that ultimately got him crippled.

Last edited by Superbelt; 02-17-2004 at 11:22 AM..
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
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The author of this article has been successful -- no one on this thread is talking about Bush.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:37 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
I don't really know what you mean by "putting the uniform on for political reasons" but certainly politicians have and will continue to use their military service for political pandering/gain. From Washington to Bush/Kerry they all do it.
Exactly yet GWB doesnt really have the credentials to use his experience.

Like 'Seretogis" has said..this is BEAT.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
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You're right. All we have to do is unnecessarially attack some innocent disabled veteran to get the mark off of Bush.
Slander anyone you can, just get the spotlight off of someone who can't stand up to scrutiny.

[edit] I find it Ironic the woman wrote a book about "slander" yet that is the only mode of communication she can successfully garner attention with. And she garners an assload of attention.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:41 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
What exactly, has Cleland exagerated?

I don't believe he is playing up his war wounds. I think he does demand a measure of respect for what he left on the battle field for this country. Regardless of whether or not he was in battle or preparing for it, he volunteered for a combat mission that ultimately got him crippled.
The way all the press releases are written it makes him look like his limbs were lost during a battle. Obviously the story of unknowingly picking up a live grenade he thought he had dropped doesn't play as well as the candidate who "gave three limbs serving his country in Vietnam". Certainly not false, but it gives the impression of a heroic act of bravery rather than a bad accident.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
The way all the press releases are written it makes him look like his limbs were lost during a battle. Obviously the story of unknowingly picking up a live grenade he thought he had dropped doesn't play as well as the candidate who "gave three limbs serving his country in Vietnam". Certainly not false, but it gives the impression of a heroic act of bravery rather than a bad accident.
Yet he doesnt don the uniform and go flying onto aircraft carriers.
That is the issue.
OK gone for good this time.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
You're right. All we have to do is unnecessarially attack some innocent disabled veteran to get the mark off of Bush.
Slander anyone you can, just get the spotlight off of someone who can't stand up to scrutiny.

[edit] I find it Ironic the woman wrote a book about "slander" yet that is the only mode of communication she can successfully garner attention with. And she garners an assload of attention.
Trotting out a disabled veteran to bash a sitting President's military service with no real evidence of impropriety is pretty appalling in itself. I guess that's ok though because anything that will help get rid of the evil George Bush is justified.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:46 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bookman
Yet he doesnt don the uniform and go flying onto aircraft carriers.
That is the issue.
OK gone for good this time.
He most certainly plays up his military ties. If you're gonna fault GWB for doing it, why not fault Max? Bush served and according to all military records completed his requirements enabling him to be honorably discharged. He has every right to wear the uniform.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:47 AM   #31 (permalink)
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ok, here's one way of settling bush's military experience/where he was/what he did: RELEASE THE FREAKING RECORDS...as every other president has done. They normally aren't a sealed record, ya know..while you're at it, release the records from his governorship of Texas...

There, the issue is back to bush now..
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Old 02-17-2004, 12:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paq
ok, here's one way of settling bush's military experience/where he was/what he did: RELEASE THE FREAKING RECORDS...as every other president has done.
They did.
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Old 02-17-2004, 01:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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his entire military record?
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:04 PM   #34 (permalink)
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No just the pay stubs and some dental records which prove..... that he at least accepted the pay and benefits for the contracted service that he didn't perform for this nation.
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:17 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Yeah, that's what i thought...
and if i recall, it was a fairly blurry page..
i'm talking about his whole record, ya know..like everyone else did...think he has something to hide?
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:38 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Whoever wrote that article is clearly mentally ill.

As for Bush and his national guard duty - I couldnt really care less if he dodged it or not, it is what he is doing as president now that matters, now what he did when he was a young guy.
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Bush's entire military records will be released. Once the ink has dried.

And all the Bush- bashers will see that the reason nobody ever saw him report for guard duty in Alabama is because he was flying secret combat missions in Vietnam.
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
No just the pay stubs and some dental records which prove..... that he at least accepted the pay and benefits for the contracted service that he didn't perform for this nation.
Must I always do your homework.

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Bush Orders Release of Military Records
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(AP) George W. Bush is shown during his time in the Texas Air National Guard, 1968-73, in this undated...
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WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush, trying to calm a political storm, ordered the release of all of his Vietnam-era military records Friday to counter Democrats' suggestions that he shirked his duty in the Texas Air National Guard.

Hundreds of pages of documents detailed Bush's service in the Guard in Texas and his temporary duty in Alabama while working on a political campaign there in the early 1970s. Democrats have questioned whether Bush ever showed up for duty in Alabama.

"The president felt everything should be made available to the public," White House press secretary said. "There were some who sought to leave a wrong impression that there was something to hide when there is not."

Bush's service record has been an issue in each of his presidential campaigns
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Old 02-17-2004, 03:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
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Location: Grantville, Pa
Maybe you should do a little bit of homework yourself.

In those reams of documents:
Bush has not released his retirement points records, which are recorded on an attendance basis. He has not released his attendance records nor has he had any credible eye witnesses who can attest that they served with him in Alabama.

Anyone can say they are releasing all their records, until that action has been verified, words mean jack shit.
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Old 02-17-2004, 03:27 PM   #40 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Superbelt
Maybe you should do a little bit of homework yourself.

In those reams of documents:
Bush has not released his retirement points records, which are recorded on an attendance basis. He has not released his attendance records nor has he had any credible eye witnesses who can attest that they served with him in Alabama.

Anyone can say they are releasing all their records, until that action has been verified, words mean jack shit.
They said all, you say not all, blah blah blah, try giving me a source.
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