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Old 03-02-2004, 04:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Drugs and Prostitution, Legal and Taxed.

It would seem to me, This country could solve several problems by legalizing certain drugs, and prostitution. Drug use and the oldest profession will never go away in the forseeable future. Wouldn't it make more sense to quit spending billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop them.
We could instead legalize and control them both, while placing a heavy tax on each. This could ensure quality and health of product as well as remove some of the primary motivators for violent crime. Between the costs saved on the "war on drugs" and the increased tax income, we would likely kill the deficit in a few years as well.
Added benefits would include a much lower prison population, less need for state funds to support an already overburdened court system, regulatory control over health and wellfare aspects, and reliable statistics on just how prevelant these issues actually are, just to name a few.
It should be clear that prohibition was a failure once, I fail to see how we can expect it to work now.

I, personally, do not partake in either of these options. But I can see the need for something to be done.
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Old 03-02-2004, 04:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I never have never will do drugs. I never have never will pay for a prostitute. Saying that, this is a great idea.

The argument against this is making it legal encourages people to do it, which is kind of true.

As for me personally I dont have a problem with it. Atleast the money these dirtbags pay will go to the Government instead of some kind of terrorist/mafia organization.
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Old 03-02-2004, 06:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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How much money would the american taxpayers save by abandoning the misguided wars on drugs and prostitution? How much could we produce be turning around and taxing the shit out of these activities?
The answers speak for themselves.
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The drug war, including all profits from tax we would receive, is costing Americans about 500 BILLION a year.

So, I think all consentual crimes should not be crimes.
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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"Ain't nobody's business if you do"

600 page book...takes about 2 hrs to read...get it, love it, learn it

seriously, it has some of the best arguments i've ever seen against "consensual crimes"
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Drugs and Prostitution, Legal and Taxed.

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
It would seem to me, This country could solve several problems by legalizing certain drugs, and prostitution. Wouldn't it make more sense to quit spending billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop them.
We could instead legalize and control them both, while placing a heavy tax on each. This could ensure quality and health of product as well as remove some of the primary motivators for violent crime. Between the costs saved on the "war on drugs" and the increased tax income, we would likely kill the deficit in a few years as well.
Added benefits would include a much lower prison population, less need for state funds to support an already overburdened court system, regulatory control over health and wellfare aspects, and reliable statistics on just how prevelant these issues actually are, just to name a few.
Welcome to the Libertarian Party, tecoyah. We're damned glad to have ya.

This is one of the planks of the Libertarian Platform. Unfortunately, however, it is often the only one that people focus on. This is propogated by threatened Republicans, and Democrats, in an attempt to discredit Libertarians, by painting us as the party of, by and for...drug users. Yeah...right. Your own post echos my sentiments, as well as most Libertarians that I know, extremely well. I'll get off my soap box now.
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Make it legal and I will open the Nude Hash House in Alaska. Make the Bush Company look like a newbie bar.

Free nachos with every bowl. Sleep on the premises with one of the Hash House Nudies.
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Old 03-03-2004, 09:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Good thread.
Couple of points I would like to make.
Not all drug money goes to terrorists and the mafia (stopping drugs from getting into the USA is not that hard..someone else is getting paid).
Secondly, I am anti-drugs, but I dont believe anything which grows naturally from the ground is a drug.
Third and lastly...you can pay someone for a massage, psychotherapy or a pedicure, yet you cant pay someone to have sex with them.
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Old 03-03-2004, 10:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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At my liberal heart, I cannot argue with these points.

As a father, I cannot bear the idea that my children will grow up in a society where becoming a prostitute is an acceptable idea, or becoming a crack addict is just another "personal choice". If two individuals decide between themselves to have a duel to the death, does that make it "okay"? It's their choice, but the world we live in does not allow us to make that decision (legally), and rightfully so.

Fact is, people are stupid and life is hard. When you give them "easy" outs like drugs and prostitution, does that make them harder workers, intent on improving themselves, or does it simply provide another outlet to divorce yourself from principled behavior? I'd rather not live in a country with no principles, and if the USA decides to become that way, I'd just as soon relocate as play along.

Granted, I was raised in a family of sexual dysfunction and rampant drug and alcohol use, and perhaps that alters my perception... or maybe it's the marijuana.

(Just kidding)
(About the marijuana)

Any Republicans can back me up on this?
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Old 03-03-2004, 10:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If they legalized both and put appropriate Luxary taxes on them, we could retire the national debt rather quickly. I can not see spending all the money to stop prostitution and then have it legal in one state. Also, i don't do drugs, have no desire to do drugs, but with the wide spread use of it, put a heffty tax on it and make it legal. With all the press and studies that show cigarettte smoking causes health problems, medically, why are cigarettes not ilegal? Turn about is fair play. Let those who want to indulge in life altering substances have them, just tax the hell out of them.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Set up "Coke" machines in Manhattan, San Francisco, Hollywood, Burbank, Culver City, etc. with a heavy tax and we could wipe out the national debt in a few years.

Maybe one outside the "Betty Ford" clinic too...
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tomservo
At my liberal heart, I cannot argue with these points.

As a father, I cannot bear the idea that my children will grow up in a society where becoming a prostitute is an acceptable idea, or becoming a crack addict is just another "personal choice".
Congratulations, you are reaching the point in life where you figure out that cozy "intellectual" concepts just don't always jibe with the reality we want to live in.

It is one thing for a 20 something intellectual to talk about how the world would be a better place if drugs were legalized, corporations outlawed, blah blah, but as you've astutely observed, it's another thing when your child becomes an addict or when there are no employers to give you a job.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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People's children become addicts now, thats the whole point - criminializing drugs isnt working, because they are still so easy for anyone to get. However, the quality is poorer, they cost more and often drive people to crime, and violent and organised crime becomes involved in their distribution.

A child should not be allowed to inject heroin anymore than they should be allowed to drink vodka - the fact is in the real world it is very hard to prevent them from doing either if they are determined to.

A consenting adult should be free to do anything to themselves that they wish, the state and the community does not have the right to tell me I cannot harm myself.

There is also no sane argument I can understand against prostitution being legal - again, it is widespread and the laws against it dont work - legalising it makes it safer, protects the people in it (by installing health and safety standards) and removing violent pimps from the equation.

If two free and consenting individuals wish to exchange money for sexual services, why in the hell does the state have the right to tell them they cannot? A woman (or a male prostitute) owns her own body, and she can sell it to anyone she wants to.
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Old 03-03-2004, 01:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Though I have strong libertarian tendencies, I don't think legalizing hard drugs would be a good idea. I think a distinction needs to be made. Crack, meth, LSD and heroin are really bad, and will ruin lives. Small amounts of pot, sold by Kraft instead of some kid are another story. Kids smoking pot and sitting around eating doritos and watching cartoons are safer than kids cruising around drinking beer and looking for a fight, or women, or both. Plus, legalizing all drugs would have some serious effects on doctors, pharmacists, etc... That would not be good for the nation.
Let's hear it for the pragmatic libertarians!
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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As far as I am aware, LSD doesnt have any serious physicsal side effects.
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
As far as I am aware, LSD doesnt have any serious physicsal side effects.
taken from http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic911.htm

Quote:
Mortality/Morbidity: Very few deaths are attributed exclusively to the pharmacologic effects of LSD. Deaths associated with LSD use are often from trauma resulting from risk-taking behavior while intoxicated.
However,
Quote:
While the effects of LSD often are considered pleasurable to the user, at times they may be profoundly disturbing, resulting in a "bad trip." Novices as well as seasoned users can experience bad trips. Common manifestations include the following:
Panic reaction
Amplification of unconscious fears
Self-aggression
Suicidal or homicidal ideation
Fear of going insane or of the inability to return to normal
Perception of rapid aging of self or others
Profound depression

Physical:

Predominantly sympathomimetic effects develop within 5-10 minutes of ingestion. Findings include the following:
Profound mydriasis
Hyperactive reflexes
Tachycardia
Hypertension
Tremors
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Piloerection
Mild pyrexia
Seizures (rare and typically with doses >10 mcg/kg)
Intact orientation and cognition

In massive overdose, additional signs include the following:
Coma (very rare)
Respiratory arrest
Hyperthermia
Coagulopathy
Crazy people wanting to kill themselves or others is more dangerous than kids watching cartoons and eating Doritos.

Last edited by dy156; 03-03-2004 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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There are good arguments on both sides pf this issue.

One thing you learn in some of the addiction counselling courses I'm taking is the percentage of addicts is primarily steady. The only increases and decreases you see are in good and bad economic times. (However, we now have legal prescription drugs for any ailment you can dream of and websites offering you sales of percocets, darvocets, vicadin, oxys, anything you want or need with no prescription necessary. (Maybe Limbaugh should have dealt with them instead of Dr. shopping and his cleaning staff.)

So legalizing probably won't affect the rates of addiction. It could however affect trafiic and work place accidents. But so can percs and darvs and vikes and all are "legal". The only difference between legal and illegal drugs is that legal drugs have BIG BIG Corporations behind them (Parke-Davis, Merck, Bayer, Johnson and Johnson, Pfizer and so on.). While illegal drugs the profits mainly benefit underground groups that will push drugs to kids and buy and sell guns with the profits. Ask the Bloods and Crips.

Personally, it is a matter of choice. Being an addict (compulsive gambler five years clean march 20th), I can honestly say I didn't become one because gambling was legal. I became one because just like 95.5% of all addicts I wanted an escape and to be numb. Until we can figure out how we can get people to be able to deal with life, there will always be drugs and there will always be addiction. Therefore you may as well legalize it and put the money into government and out of theunderworld.
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Old 03-03-2004, 02:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Dy156.......the effects listed could just as easily describe alcohol, or diet pills....why is one illegal and the other giving people longer prison terms than rape?
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Old 03-03-2004, 03:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I don't drink or use drugs and wouldn't consider visiting a prostitute and never have.

Something like this is best decided by popular referendum and representative government. Whatever "the people" want.

As always though, it's too bad the people are swayed by mass culture.
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Old 03-03-2004, 03:59 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The fact that some drugs are illegal hasn't stopped anyone i know from developing a chemical addiction. I doubt legalized drugs would up the addiction rate significantly since the law is meaningless when it comes to preventing addiction.
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
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TV, Music, the WWW, Porn, Tobacco, Alchohol & the overall pressures to achieve the American Dream are more harmful than prostitution or marijuana/any other natural mind enhancer.

Hard drugs I am not supportive of them.
If they legalized prostitution how would they stop people from working off the books? Here is the systems biggest problem...sex (in the case women) is the most natural product which has an everlasting demand. What will they do? Sew girls @ birth until they get a hooker license?
Marijuana...anyone can grow it....there may be more of a demand for SEEDS than weed.
The GOVERNMENT will not be able to make $$ if they are legalized.
The moral arguments against these things are quite juvenile.
If you dont wanna pay for some sex..cool, dont wanna puff some herbs...cool.
Dont try to demoralize the issues.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:46 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
Dy156.......the effects listed could just as easily describe alcohol, or diet pills....why is one illegal and the other giving people longer prison terms than rape?
This doesn't need to turn into a physical-side-effects-of-LSD thread, but diet pills and alcohol don't sometimes cause "Suicidal or homicidal ideation" See also my post about David on the thread about drugs messing up peoples' lives.

Back on topic, and in response to Bookman, even if there were some that evaded taxes, this is always a possibility. One could grow tomatoes, or put some yeast in grape juice and let it sit there awhile under your bed, and not pay taxes on your "wine" or vegetables. People sell home brewing kits, but Anheiser Busch isn't threatened. There are NO taxes being paid on marijuana or prostitution currently, so it would not really matter if some people were growing their own weed and not reporting times they got paid for sex. Even if some evade taxes, I bet the reduction in costs to our government of not enforcing these crimes, plus the taxes collected would more than offset the cost of government regulation of these new industries, and the tax evaders participating in them.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Legalize pot and prostitution. Pot smokers don't tend to beat their kids or drive their car at ninety miles an hour like drunk people do. Watch cops, and see how many people are drunk vs. people stoned on pot. Of course, I don't do wither, but I am less likely to be assaulted by a stoned person than a drunk at the local 7-11.
Prostitution. The oldest profession (you have to have sex to have kids). Legalize it, regulate with testing, get the kids out of it, and lets all have some fun. Its worked for other countries.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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ok, i'm in total agreement about legalizing drugs and ending the drug war. the arguments you stated have been around for a LONG time, as i found out when i did a paper on it like 5 years ago in high school.

the PROBLEM, is that the drug war has been institutionalized, for lack of a better term. so many ppl depend on the drug war to make a living. Most notably are the police, judges, lawyers, and other people in the legal system. Over half of convicted criminals in correctional facilities today are from drug related crimes. A lot of people make their living on putting them in there and keeping them in there.

Now, when you take into account that so many lawyers and judges, etc, make there living off of the drug war, and that those ppl most directly involved with the legal system also are in the most direct control of the government, the result you get is a system dependant on itself for its own continuation.

the bottom line is that many people in control have an interest in keeping the drug war going for their own interests.

my dad, a corrections officer (prison guard) is one of those ppl. i mean, he doesn't have control, and his feelings are similar to mine on this issue, but if the drug war ended and half the prison population were let go, they wouldn't need him anymore (probably, he's a sergeant with seniority now...)

another side issue is, if drugs were legalized, do you realize how many lawsuits against the gov't there would be, even if there was a statement they couldn't be sued?
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Old 03-07-2004, 07:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Count me in.
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:21 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by KungFuGuy
ok, i'm in total agreement about legalizing drugs and ending the drug war. the arguments you stated have been around for a LONG time, as i found out when i did a paper on it like 5 years ago in high school.

the PROBLEM, is that the drug war has been institutionalized, for lack of a better term. so many ppl depend on the drug war to make a living. Most notably are the police, judges, lawyers, and other people in the legal system. Over half of convicted criminals in correctional facilities today are from drug related crimes. A lot of people make their living on putting them in there and keeping them in there.

Now, when you take into account that so many lawyers and judges, etc, make there living off of the drug war, and that those ppl most directly involved with the legal system also are in the most direct control of the government, the result you get is a system dependant on itself for its own continuation.

the bottom line is that many people in control have an interest in keeping the drug war going for their own interests.

my dad, a corrections officer (prison guard) is one of those ppl. i mean, he doesn't have control, and his feelings are similar to mine on this issue, but if the drug war ended and half the prison population were let go, they wouldn't need him anymore (probably, he's a sergeant with seniority now...)

another side issue is, if drugs were legalized, do you realize how many lawsuits against the gov't there would be, even if there was a statement they couldn't be sued?
There are many reasons that make a transition hard, from the current situation to a more sane approach. That does not mean it shouldnt be done. It was very hard to abolish slavery, yet it was done.Any job loss would be more than offset by revenues and regulatory positions, as well as savings from the billions spent now on the war on drugs. We as a society need to set the priorities, not the federal government, unless we decide to forgo our democratic republic in favor of a totalitarian regime.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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tecoyah- i was pointing out reasons why people that could start the transition arent doing it. but i agree with what you're saying. should definately be done.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:59 PM   #28 (permalink)
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KungFuGuy,

In Montreal, cops and judges would love nothing more than to stop being forced to go after drug users and focus instead on more serious crimes, such as rape, murder and racketeering. However, since the decriminalization bill didn't go through, they still have to bust their balls and those of people who just want to relax and have a toke. Judges have to deal with case after worthless case of minor possession, which delays judgement of more pressing issues.

Jails and courtrooms losing those charged with what amounts to trivial things would be a good thing, since they would then fill up with those who do the more fucked up shit and actually need to be put there.
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Old 03-10-2004, 08:27 AM   #29 (permalink)
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A short exam:

Which is more likely to endanger a person's health?
a. skateboarding
b. football
c. bronco bull riding
d. motocross racing
e. binge drinking of alcohol
f. chain-smoking cigarettes
g. smoking an occasional joint of marijuana ?

Extra credit: Which of these activities is entirely legal and which are not? Explain the different treatment under law.
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:33 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Secondly, I am anti-drugs, but I dont believe anything which grows naturally from the ground is a drug.
(Laughs to self...)
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:38 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Something like this is best decided by popular referendum and representative government. Whatever "the people" want.

As always though, it's too bad the people are swayed by mass culture.
So, whats good for the voting majority is good for everyone?

Why don't we find out what makes people 'want' to visit prostitutes; what makes them 'want' to do drugs?

-SF
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Old 03-10-2004, 08:48 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Biter
KungFuGuy,

Jails and courtrooms losing those charged with what amounts to trivial things would be a good thing, since they would then fill up with those who do the more fucked up shit and actually need to be put there.
very true. i'd just like to add that most violent crime is a result of drug laws. wasn't it in amsterdam that when whey legalized marijuana the rate of violent crimes dropped by more than half of what it was before?

that being said, prisons probably wouldn't "fill up" as much as there would be a whole lot more room for people that actually belong there.
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Old 03-11-2004, 04:12 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by saltfish
So, whats good for the voting majority is good for everyone?

Why don't we find out what makes people 'want' to visit prostitutes; what makes them 'want' to do drugs?

-SF
Mostly because we already know.
Drugs and prostitution have been around since man could record such facts.Both sex and drugs release dopamine into the human neuoligical system, and change the chemical composition of the brain temporarily. but that has little to do with the Politics of this thread.
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:00 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I hate pot heads, quite a bit, but there is logic to legalizing such things and turning loss into earnings. I think it may be a good idea just for marijuana, alcohol, tobacco, and such. I also am finding it more and more difficult to care about what other people do to themselves, I wish some Americans weren't ignorant, fat, lazy, or drug addicts, but there's not much I can do about it other than attempt to educate them, and I'm sure as hell not going to put out the effort to force anyone to cut it out when they refuse to listen.
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Old 03-11-2004, 08:07 PM   #35 (permalink)
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If congress were to pass something like this we(america) would truly be the center of the world, but to bad they wont be doing it anytime soon. As you probably already know our country has way to many christen values so all this talk about legalizing drugs and prostitution gets thrown out the door.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:20 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I had a discussion once with a woman who truly believed that legalization of prostitution would automagically create a brothel on virtually every urban street corner in the nation, dragging us down into Sodom-and-Gomorrah depredation until we were finally swallowed whole by Hell itself. Her ex-husband also happened to have cheated on her with a hooker, though.

And while legalizing certain drugs may relieve debts both domestic and abroad, it also opens the doors to every street corner hustler with two legs and a mouth. Take a walk around downtown Amsterdam and see if you're not propositioned for extasy, cocaine, and/or LSD about every fifteen minutes. All you have to do is sit down somewhere and let them come to you. It's disheartening. And the same thing would happen here. After all, if the rich American wants to smoke some pot, than maybe he's willing to try something else, enh?

While A-dam is often affectionally painted as a city full of laid-back, reasonable people who don't mind if you want to spark up a fatty or pay for sex, the reality behind their global postcard has some decidedly sharp edges and is populated by desperate foreigners, tacky neon signs, and an air of unsettling unpredictability.
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:31 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I would add my own thoughts to this argument, but they are already articulated so well in the following taken from http://www.cognitiveliberty.org . This doesnt address prostitution, but the same principles could be applied to that issue.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/faqs/faq_drugpolicy.htm

Quote:
Most drug policy reform organizations take a harm reduction position against the war on drugs. They oppose the drug war because it (drug prohibition) causes more social harm than the drugs themselves. This is a consequentialist approach to the issue – one that debates the relative harms of drugs versus the relative harms of drug prohibition.


We believe that this harm debate is not only impossible to resolve (how exactly does one quantify the harm of a heroin overdose versus the harm of over-crowding prisons or corrupt police officers?), the debate structure may actually produce its own sort of harm because it encourages bad science about drugs and drug policy. Framing the debate and policy analysis in terms of harm encourages the government to exaggerate the harm associated with drug use, and to deny that some drug use may present little or no harm. (One example is, medical marijuana, which the federal government will not acknowledge has any medicinal value because such a acknowledgement would detract from its larger argument that marijuana is an inherently harmful drug that must be outlawed.) Additionally, we are concerned that a harm reduction approach to drug policy leaves open the possibility of future, more efficient (less harmful) forms of prohibition.


Most importantly, critiquing the drug war by focusing exclusively on its consequences ignores the character of drug prohibition – and its character is flawed._

We seek to add this -- otherwise unaddressed -- component to the national debate over drug policy.


How is the CCLE’s approach to drug policy different?


The CCLE’s focus is on protecting the unlimited potential of the human mind, and we maintain that criminal drug prohibition infringes on the inalienable right to freedom of thought. We maintain that the war on drugs is not a war on pills, powders, and plants, anymore than the earlier governmental efforts to ban books or to censor publications was a war on paper and ink. These are wars against thinking certain ways, and for this reason we maintain that criminal drug prohibition is unconstitutional cognitive censorship, and inconsistent with the basic values and freedoms upon with the United States was founded. So long as a person does not endanger others, the CCLE maintains that the government lacks the constitutional authority to punish the person simply for self-determining his or her own cognitive processes.
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