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Old 03-04-2004, 04:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Schools, and how they foster laziness.

I've been through this numerous times in my head and even with my wife on this. Basically, it all starts with the school system, and how they set up kids to be "lazy." I'm using that word because I can't think of another one. If you read what I type here, you'll know what I mean, and maybe thing of another...better word for it.

Anyhow, here is the current scenario. Schools in general, including grade school, high school, and colleges are in session some nine months out of the year. In there, you have time off for the holidays, but not just the day. Some schools offer a week at Thanksgiving, and up to five weeks at Christmas. Furthermore, most schools offer a full week for a Spring Break. You have NO idea how much I wish this resembled the real world. I get less days off per year for holidays than some places get for Spring Break. Oh, yeah, I work for a living.

So, you're probably wanting my solution, right? Well, I don't have it 100% nailed down yet, it would involve a school system that readies the students for the real world. It would be year round, with one week of "vacation" allowed per year. I realize the problems it would introduce for the grade school students, but then on top of that, the parent's wouldn't have to find a sitter through the summer. Classes would run from 8a-5p, just like a normal day's work. Holidays would render the class out of session...for that day. Not the next month. It would follow a reasonable tolerance, where if the holiday fell on a Thursday, the next day, Friday, would also be off. If it was a Wednesday, you'd be S.O.L., and if it was a Saturday, you'd get Friday, or if it was a Sunday, you'd get Monday. Business operate year 'round, not nine months a year. Getting two months vacation in that nine months also doesn't happen, either.

I wish they would institute year 'round schooling. Anything less is setting our kids up for a fall.

OK...your turn.
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Old 03-04-2004, 04:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Year round schooling? No thanks

I dont think the length of school is exactly what fosters laziness - its overral laziness in society in general. When things around become easier you expect it all to be easier.

And to be honest there are many ahrd working people - its a matter of character, upbringing, and personal self. I can be a lazy bastard in casual places but I know ill get the work done and I do get it done regardless.

And its defenitely not length of school IMO
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Year round schooling would dramatically increase costs. We might get a better product, but a debate about how to improve results is incoherent without a discussion of costs. In other words, we have to consider alternatives that are of similar or lesser price. I don't know what they might be, but they deserve consideration.

On a side note, one of the problems with the current system is that parents spend much more time at work than kids spend at school. This creates time where the parents are away, but the kids aren't at school. It is during this time that a lot of kids fall into trouble. Lengthening the school day would help alone, but it would have more dramatic effects in that it would eliminate this asynchronous parent-child schedule.

One more point. The amount of homework that is assigned to kids these days is not appropriate. I'm by no means advocating a weaker system, but grade school students shouldn't have 3-4 hours of busywork a night.
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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An alternate would be to decrease the amount time the parents stay at work, and [i]lengthen[i] their vacations--I think it's time we joined the rest of the Western nations. We're working too damn long and hard, and attributing such statements to "laziness" isn't going to do anything but make you work until the stress kills you.
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Old 03-04-2004, 06:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, as a former teacher, I'd say until schools take seriously the task of deprogramming students from the mind raping effects of mass media...

Let me put that in a way that might not be so troublesome to some:

Until the schools take seriously the task of teaching media literacy, there will be very little education occurring.

There are so many structural and socio-cultural problems contained within the "educational system" that I decided it was a truly hopeless situation and changed careers.

You're right in calling for revolutionary reform.
As you may know, teachers' unions are the most anti-educational force in the country and will oppose any reform at all - unless it can be "agenda-ized."
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Old 03-04-2004, 06:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I see one problem with your idea, and that's when do the teachers do the stuff other than teach? Teachers will grade homework, setup class plans, etc...if the school day's lengthened, then they'll be doing that much more work.
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Old 03-04-2004, 06:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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As a teacher I am all for year round school. However, I am not for the idea of us raising other people's children. Children need time to play, participate in sports and other activities, and be with their families. I believe there must be a balance. Parents should work less -- our society is way too type A, imho. The main reason kids should go to school year round is because they loose a lot of ground during the summer, not because they are "lazy." We through lot more information at a lot more types of people now, then we did 50 years ago. Let's modify the system to fit today's needs -- but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Keep what is good and there is a lot of good.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:46 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I understand what is being said here. I mentioned to my wife after typing this up, that there were a few things I should have included, and didn't. Classes could be more relaxed, and the children given more time to play, and still have a productive day. Especially, if the classes went year round. A relaxed place would take pressure OFF of students and teachers. I do agree that teachers would have a little more time wrapped up in their work, what with prepping, grading, and what have you. You're all right, in that a balance would need to be struck...maybe my idea in its entirety wouldn't be better, but, I feel that in general, it would be a better suited situation for todays kids that grow up "working" 7 months a year, to go to a real life work world that works 54 (Please tell me you catch the sarcasm there) weeks a year.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I went to school, and I'm not too lazy to... um... sure, okay.

Typing is too much work.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think that we should have year round school, but only because I think that the three months in the summer really messes kids up. Many teachers complain about having to get children caught up on stuff they forgot over the summer. They feel that the first couple of months of school is wasted.
School districts in America tend to have 180 days a year. Many European and Asian schools are 200 a year. Lets be the best. Go to 220 days a year, thats 44 weeks. Kids get 4 two week breaks a quarter.
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Old 03-07-2004, 03:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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over here in the good ol' U of K, this is our current break down of your average state shcool term (colleges, unis and sixth forms vary):

start in september, first term runs until just before christmas, with a week break half way through (half term). at christmas there is a two week break.
the next term runs from january to easter, with another half term in the middle. there is a two week break for easter.
the next term runs from after easter to around may/june (students get study leave if they are taking big exams) with a half term again.
there is a six week summer holiday, and it all starts again.

this system seems to work pretty well for us, plenty of breaks to ease the mind of the student, but still a good amount of teaching time.
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Old 03-07-2004, 04:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Children arent able to concentrate for such long periods. Also, kids have homework, when most people leave work, they try not to even think about it until they go in the next morning.
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Old 03-07-2004, 12:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You also have to remember that many high school students have part-time jobs while still in school. If you made them go to school all day it would seriously hurt the amout of money they could make.
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Old 03-07-2004, 04:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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the education system would never be able to shoulder the added cost of a year-round school. even if it could... i don't think it'd be healthy for the kids to be in school as often as adults are expected to be at work. in order to combat the problems that sometimes occur on extended break... i would be all for splitting the school year into 4-6 different sections... each separated by a couple week's worth of vacation.
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Old 03-07-2004, 07:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You also have to remember that many high school students have part-time jobs while still in school. If you made them go to school all day it would seriously hurt the amout of money they could make.
Sarcasm?
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Old 03-07-2004, 07:21 PM   #16 (permalink)
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No, its not sarcasm. Some teens have to work in order to support their living costs. Not everyone has parents that pay for everything.

17 year olds need a car, car insurance, + gas, not to mention start saving to pay off their lifelong debt from the college loan. If your parent does not pay then you need a job.
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Old 03-07-2004, 09:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
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One problem with summer schooling is in rural communities many of the kids that are "lazy" have to work 6am-8-pm on the farms. Not exactly lazy if you ask me.

This is a small minority but it exists and many farms rely on the kids during the summers. So this leaves a problem of do we let these kids fall behind the rest of the nation? Or do we let their farms fail?
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Old 03-07-2004, 09:16 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Pure year round school would be 261 days. 365-104 (weekends)

So on average, teachers would need to be given about a 50% pay raise.

A drastically large amount of school supplies would be needed. Paper, ink/toner, chalk, 50% more across the board.

You're asking this from many school districts that can't even afford 180 days. I remember when at my school the teachers had to start saving paper because they were on pace to run out at the 3rd quarter mark, I remember boxes of chalk being treated like gold. I remember school desks being used 20 years past their intended lifetime.

The dollar costs alone are too high.

But the kids being lazy? School, friends, work, extracurriculars. Lazy? I remember with the exception of my last semester I was at school for 8 hours. I would normally like to spend some time with friends, so I'll say 2 hours there. I had a job for about a year and a half, where I would work normally 4-6 hour shifts during the week. Of course, if I had anything extracurricular with a class, that would go for most of the night too, band concerts, popping popcorn for basketball games, covering topics for the school paper (when the semester I wrote for it), or what not. That's a busy day, and it doesn't factor in time for family, time to relax, or time to SLEEP. I normally got about 5 on a weeknight. I forget what doctors say kids really need, but I believe it's about 9 hours.

Taking time away wouldn't do anything to make me less lazy, I'd just be a pissed off son of a bitch for a hell of a lot longer.

I was lucky to go to a high school of 2000 where there was a large number of choices of classes to take, however, a large number I took because I had to. I learned absolutely nothing from them, and I saw absolutely no point to them, spending an extra 20 hours in that class would just be a waste of my life. No, I'm not bull shitting in the least, it would be a complete waste of my life and I'm not the only one, because everyone I knew felt the same way. (EDIT: I feel this needs an example, so how about "Teen Living Skills" a class where we learned absolutely nothing in all seriousness. Well, after thinking about it, I believe we learned about a proper diet, how to make crappy food dishes, how to do laundry, and some worthless psychology crap that was dumbed down so far any psychologist walking into the class and hearing the crap they say would probably break down the door of the principle and demand they learn a fucking clue. And oh yes, THIS IS A REQUIRED CLASS TO GRADUATE) So say the occasional 1% would be touched, whoopty fucking doo, it's a waste of thousands of hours of life a YEAR.

What's the point? Well, those thousands of hours of wasted life the tax payers have to pay for. Oh, and that's just in my district alone. I don't even want to think about putting those numbers into national numbers.

Oh yeah, and I was relatively uninvolved compared to everyone else I knew.

I'm a strong proponent that the parents are almost always at fault, and this is coming from an only child whose parents are divorced, whose mom should be in a mental hospital, and whose dad he rarely saw because either he's working, or I was doing something. 9 month school years didn't hurt any previous generations, and I strongly doubt all of a sudden I don't feel like doing anything because I have 3 months off.
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:42 AM   #19 (permalink)
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exactly.
it's all very well saying we need kids in school more and that schools foster lazyness or whatever, but in practicality, you can't keep kids in longer without a riot, and if you think it makes kids lazy, go back to school yourself.
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Schools, and how they foster laziness.

stevie: That proposal would require tax increases, so that will NEVER fly in America.
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Old 03-11-2004, 04:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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my kids go to school year round.....at home.
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Old 03-11-2004, 06:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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My wife's an elementary school teacher, so I have some strong opinions on this.
Here's why having school 8-5 year-round school won't, or shouldn't, work:
1. Teachers Unions-which are an impediment to any real change, as mentioned above- but on this they have a valid point. Not all teachers teach a class, then teach that class again, and maybe get a couple of class periods where they don't teach. Some are on their feet the vast majority of the day, working with the same kids without a break except for 30 min. lunch and when they go to PE or music sometimes. That's a long time to be "on" and vigilant, and teachers are in short supply as it is. (I disagree, by the way, w/ the teachers unions' opposition to allowing peolple to teach without an education degree.)
2. Little kids don't need that much instruction. They need to play, and interact socially, and teachers and our school system should not be babysitters. Schools are for education.
3. Cost -covered by other posts
4. Summer vacations and afternoons provided me with some of my most fond memories of growing up, and I bet the same is true for many many people.
5. America's long working period is one of the reasons America is so productive, and where it is economically compared to other nations. American kids do alright adjusting to the real world as it is, without the benefit of schooling all day, every day, and there is no reason to change force them to adjust any earlier.
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Old 03-13-2004, 08:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Who will pay for the extra costs? And that would be a lot of
unneeded stress for kids.
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Old 03-13-2004, 11:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by PoteMatic
And that would be a lot of
unneeded stress for kids.
heheheheheheheh

Anyway I agree that the school system should spend more time teaching, and less time handing out homework. DE137's views are a little extreme for me, but I feel that school hours should be longer, and there should be less "down time". I think it'd support more traditional values of family and community, as well as preparing our children for life at an earlier age. Let's face it, the percentage of kids that go to a post secondary institution to continue their schooling is rising vrey rapidly. Soon i feel it'll be a standard to obtain a job higher than menial labor. But getting out at 23 and 24 to "start" your life is too late. We need our children ton understand all these concepts earlier, so the past generation does not have to spend some 19-24 years supporting their offspring. (yes i know there are exceptions, i'm generalizing here)

A longer day, one day a week off, and more in-class learning i feel would provide a much better school environment for kids.
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Old 03-14-2004, 01:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally posted by skier
A longer day, one day a week off, and more in-class learning i feel would provide a much better school environment for kids.
i agree, that would probably provide a much better learning enviroment, at the expense of the social progression of the kids.
social development is a major part of a childs upbringing and growth, and it's easy to see the gits in society who were deprived of that.
it's all very well saying kids should learn more, but you can't ignore our basic evolutionary needs to interact, play and socialise on many levels.
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Old 03-14-2004, 04:31 AM   #26 (permalink)
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i'll have to disagree there. What better place to learn social cues, behavior, and other important social skills than in a room surrounded by your peers? Spending 2 hours at home doing homework every night is far more antisocial than having an in-class disscusion (social studies/english) or grouping into 2's and 3's to solve problems (math). Schools are a major meeting area for peers at the same stage of social development. Just because I feel that school hours should be longer does not mean I feel children should stop playing altogether and just work. Social skills are just as important as technical skills in life, as I learned the hard way some time ago.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:25 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The school system needs to be completely refurbished, it doesn't need more money. It needs more money like the government needs more lazy ass workers who don't do shit all day.

As a side note, I'd like to add that I was home schooled. It took me approximately 2 hours a day to completely rape my assigned work, and some days I'd finish a weeks work in a day so I could slack off. I now work a full time job, run the bulk of my fathers real estate business' operations, and have recently just started my own business venture. So I don't think free time directly influences whether a person is lazy or not.

What I would suggest is CUTTING the hours/days of high school (elementary school is more of a daycare then it is a place of education), and increasing the quality of education, more like college in the sense that you get a book, listen to the teacher give his rap and learn like a bastard or fail your test. Basically changing the whats, hows and whens.

This way we can cut costs and increase the quality of education as well as the quality of the student's lives. The downside is you'll lose a lot of teaching jobs (and this is what I think is needed but will sadly never happen due to the teachers union being ginormous and thus holding a lot of political sway), but you do get a large workforce you can put to work for beans.

Or you can privatize and unrestrict the system and see what the variety of schools can produce.



(Two edits, high score.)
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Old 03-14-2004, 09:15 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by skier
i'll have to disagree there. What better place to learn social cues, behavior, and other important social skills than in a room surrounded by your peers? Spending 2 hours at home doing homework every night is far more antisocial than having an in-class disscusion (social studies/english) or grouping into 2's and 3's to solve problems (math). Schools are a major meeting area for peers at the same stage of social development. Just because I feel that school hours should be longer does not mean I feel children should stop playing altogether and just work. Social skills are just as important as technical skills in life, as I learned the hard way some time ago.
true, but school lacks spontanuity (if that's a word) and still has rules.
theres a big difference between running around in a park throwing sticks at each other and generally messing around to just sitting in school under the watchful eye of the teacher.
yes school does have social interaction, but it simply isn't fun, and everyone knows that having fun is a vital part in any kids life.
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Old 03-14-2004, 09:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I bet that no one here who wants to extend school hours or make education harder on pupils was arguing for it when THEY were in school...
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Old 03-14-2004, 04:46 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Phaenx, what share of an adult's attention did you have from the age of, say, 4 to 10 when being home schooled? I'm guessing about 1/10 to 1/2?

If you staffed schools with 1 teacher for every 2 to 10 kids, I'd bet you could teach kids much faster. =) But, it would cost an arm and a leg: and don't get me wrong, home schooling is expensive. Lets say your parent could have earned 30$/hour (including raises on after-childhood salaries because of more experience etc), how many hours did they put into your schooling? At 2/day/student, 365 days/year, that's 22 thousand dollars a year per student.

A high salary? I am presuming whoever educated you was pretty smart. =)

Home schooling can be an amazing education, but realize it isn't a cheap education.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:57 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
What I would suggest is CUTTING the hours/days of high school (elementary school is more of a daycare then it is a place of education), and increasing the quality of education, more like college in the sense that you get a book, listen to the teacher give his rap and learn like a bastard or fail your test. Basically changing the whats, hows and whens.
I agree with this. I think school makes people lazy, but not in the sense DEI37 is saying. So much of it is a complete waste of time. Nothing is learned if you're in the upper half of the class.

I know a lot of people who never worked before college. They'd show up to class in high school only to fall asleep or play games on their calculator. They spent no time on homework, never read the book, and still aced every exam. They were taught at an impressionable age that it doesn't take any work to be at the top, and many of them could never shake that lesson. Unfortunately, these are just the type of people who society should be trying to give the opposite message.
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:15 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I agree with this. I think school makes people lazy, but not in the sense DEI37 is saying. So much of it is a complete waste of time. Nothing is learned if you're in the upper half of the class.
i agree totally with that. in my old school, there used to be advanced lessons for the kids who were brighter, me included. But, it only took one stupid parent to complain that the lessons were bad because they seperated out kids (i mean, c'mon, kids with problems get help, kids who are average get all the attention, but if your good, you get dragged round by everyone else, and not spured or pushed to your potential at all), so they stopped them. the wonders of comprehensive schooling for you.
i breezed through all my school life pretty easily, granted i failed most of my exams (mostly due to the fact i was on some mind altering substance during them), but very rarely was i even remotly pushed beyond normal work.

it's all PC for you, your made if your poor, stupid, out of work, lazy, generally messed up, but if your good at anything, or have a job, then your on your own, because the government doesn't like you in their plans.
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