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Old 04-23-2004, 04:46 AM   #1 (permalink)
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The more you embellish, the worse it gets!

Again, The Boston Globe, when your own paper starts finding out things like this, you know you are in trouble.

Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record
Ex-skipper says website wrong
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | April 23, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Vietnam combat records posted on John F. Kerry's campaign website for the month of January 1969 as evidence of his service aboard swift boat No. 94 describe action that occurred before Kerry was skipper of that craft, according to the officer who said he commanded the boat at the time.

On the site, the Massachusetts senator is described as the skipper of Navy boat No. 94 during several actions in late January 1969.

However, Edward Peck, who was the skipper of the 94 before Kerry took over, said combat reports posted by the campaign for January 1969 involve action when he was the skipper, not Kerry. Peck, who was seriously wounded in fighting that took place on Jan. 29, 1969, said he believes Kerry campaign aides made a mistake in claiming Kerry as skipper of the 94 at that time.

On the Kerry website, the report of the combat on that day on the 94 boat is posted as occurring during Kerry's time as skipper of the boat. Peck said Kerry replaced him after the Jan. 29, 1969, event.

"Those are definitely mine," Peck said, referring to the combat reports that the Kerry campaign posted as representing Kerry's action. "There is no doubt about it."

A Kerry campaign spokesman, Michael Meehan, said in an e-mail that the campaign had obtained the combat reports for the 94 from the Navy. He did not directly address the question of why the campaign describes Kerry being skipper of the 94 at a time when Peck says he commanded the boat.

The reports at issue are in a 20-page batch representing Kerry's combat in January 1969. The reports include references to some dramatic action, including an ambush of Patrol Craft Fast, or PCF, 94. In addition to posting the information online, the campaign sent out an e-mail yesterday afternoon repeating the claim that Kerry was the skipper of the 94 boat throughout January and describing action the campaign said Kerry experienced while commanding the craft.

For example, in a summary of action that occurred Jan. 26, 1969, the campaign says Kerry served on boat No. 94 alongside another boat, No. 66. "PCFs 94 and 66 escorted troops up the Ong Doc River early in the morning when they were ambushed by gun and rocket fire from approximately 40 men on both sides of the river," the campaign summary says. "Two B-40 rounds hit close to Kerry's boat, while PCF 66 received 2 B-40 rocket hits. Three men on PCF66 were wounded. A junk containing South Vietnamese troops was also sunk, killing 11 South Vietnamese troops. Intelligence reports after the mission indicated that the Viet Cong troops may have planned the ambush in advance."

Peck said he was the skipper of the 94 at this time and that Kerry was not on the craft. While combat reports show several boats traveling with the 94, the campaign website says only that Kerry was the skipper of the 94 and does not try to place him on the other boats.

In another report, the campaign summarizes action that took place on Jan. 29, 1969, this way: "While Kerry's boat and another [PCF72] were probing a canal along the river, Kerry's boat came under heavy fire and was hit by a B-40 rocket in the cabin area. One member of Kerry's crew -- Forward Gunner David Alston -- suffered shrapnel wounds in his head. His injuries were not considered serious and he was sent to the 29th Evac Hospital at Binh Thuy."

Peck said he was the skipper on this day as well. Peck was also injured in the ambush and was hospitalized.

As a result, Kerry then took over the crew, Peck said. The Navy combat report posted by the Kerry campaign states that Peck and Alston were injured in the same event. There is no mention of Kerry in that report.

Kerry's commanding officer, George Elliott, said in a telephone interview that he vividly recalls Peck's injury and hospitalization and Kerry's replacement of Peck. "I think somebody made a mistake who doesn't know" the timing of Kerry's service, Elliott said. Kerry was skipper of boat No. 44 in December and January before taking over command of the 94, he said.

Michael Kranish can be reached by e-mail at kranish@globe.com.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...kerrys_record/
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Old 04-23-2004, 04:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: The more you embellish, the worse it gets!

Quote:
Originally posted by jcookc6
"I think somebody made a mistake who doesn't know" the timing of Kerry's service, Elliott said.
I think this says it all. Seems to be just a mistake made by campaign staff assuming Kerry was the commander for these actions at that time. Nothing even worth talking about.

The simple fact is, Kerry went to Vietnam, fought honorably and effectively on many occassions and then came home to campaign against the war because that's where his beliefs lead him.

Support him or not but every detail (or incomplete detail) is not a story (I say the same about those criticizing Bush along similar lines).
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Old 04-23-2004, 07:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah, from the looks of it, Kerry took over January 29th. the staff probablly just heard January, and assumed he commanded the boat for all of January. Its sad when our campaigns become about little nitpicky details like this instead of things that matter (no, I wasn't particularly happy when Bush was forced to release his dental records).

Assumeing, of course, they issue a correction and apology.

Last edited by iccky; 04-23-2004 at 07:14 AM..
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Old 04-23-2004, 07:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The thread title is appropriate if you apply it to the poster, who seems to be making a habit of posting nitpicky articles about Kerry's service in Vietnam. How about some real substance next time, eh jcookc6?
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Old 04-23-2004, 07:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
The thread title is appropriate if you apply it to the poster, who seems to be making a habit of posting nitpicky articles about Kerry's service in Vietnam. How about some real substance next time, eh jcookc6?
Ouch!
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Old 04-23-2004, 08:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I don't have a problem with the article, but this I have a problem with:

Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
The thread title is appropriate if you apply it to the poster, who seems to be making a habit of posting nitpicky articles about Kerry's service in Vietnam. How about some real substance next time, eh jcookc6?
Sparhawk,

You could have just said something like, "This is just another anti-Kerry article with no substance" and made your point.
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Old 04-23-2004, 12:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
I don't have a problem with the article, but this I have a problem with:



Sparhawk,

You could have just said something like, "This is just another anti-Kerry article with no substance" and made your point.
I apologize for making my point in an uncivilized way. But Lebell, this is what I have a problem with:

The more you embellish, the worse it gets!
John "The War Hero" Kerry
Another article for Democratic Frontrunner to Waffle on
Another Article on Your Democratic Canidate from the DNC's favorite Paper the Glob
Harvard Crimson article about Kerry from 1970
Interesting article about JF Kerry's tactics
Good article on the "War Hero"
Bring it on and don't let the door hit you
John Kerry's Forehead? Why won't he tell us his Secret?

I mean really, "John Kerry's Forehead? Why won't he tell us his Secret?" and consistently putting "War Hero" in quotes? I expect more from my fellow patriots on the other side of the aisle.
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Old 04-23-2004, 12:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have been calling him the "War Hero" because that is what he has been known as in Massachusetts for years. The 2 nicknames he has are "War Hero" and "Live Shot".
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcookc6
I have been calling him the "War Hero" because that is what he has been known as in Massachusetts for years. The 2 nicknames he has are "War Hero" and "Live Shot".
For fun I checked these out:

"Live Shot" from msnbc and boston globe
Quote:
In the 1996 U.S. Senate race in Massachusetts, the wise guys in the Boston media and political establishment toasted Gov. William Weld and made fun of incumbent Sen. John Kerry. Kerry was mocked as a phony and a publicity hound—dubbed "Live Shot" by Billy Bulger, the Massachusetts state Senate president. Weld, on the other hand, was seen as clever and cool, the witty star of Bulger's annual St. Patrick's Day breakfast. If you had to guess which of the two candidates would do better on "Imus in the Morning," the irreverent talk show that has a large New England audience, you wouldn't have guessed John Kerry.

...

his nickname among Massachusetts political insiders was "Live Shot," a reference to his relentless courting of reporters, especially those with TV cameras in tow.

...

Kerry says he began courting TV cameras, earning the "Live Shot" nickname, as part of a campaign strategy to counteract the TV ad blitz by his wealthy 1990 opponent, Republican James Rappaport. "It was the only way I could win against a multimillionaire," he says. "We devised a strategy to be in every television market to be able to drive the free media and counter what he was paying for."
Couldn't find anything about "War Hero." It might have something to do with the fact that he is a genuine War Hero, though. I did find another nickname, though "Just For Kerry," based off his initials, which he said was invented by a mean-spirited Boston Globe columnist.
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Old 04-23-2004, 04:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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you got the gist.
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Old 04-23-2004, 07:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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jcookc6- just curious.....how long did you serve in Viet Nam?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

NY Roast-
After a complete review of the presidents war record, a glaring discrepancy has come to light.
George W. Bush, while in the Texas Air Nat'l Guard, was claimed to have had three(3) cavities and a loose filling. However, this reporter has found that the level of decay in his left upper bicuscus, was not so severe as to merit the term "Cavity". In fact Dr. theodore biswell, the base dentist remembers specifically the decay was only superficial and did not require the use of drill or filling. Further investigation shows Mr. Bush was regularly late for his appointments, and was entirely absent from scheduled appointments on at least one occasion.
"We expect some level of tardiness from pilots here on the base", Mr. Biswell was quoted as saying."But this guy was only seen on base two or three times a year, and then only for the free dental check ups". A spokesman for Mr Bush explained," Don't you want a president with a pretty smile, this man does after all represent the United States of America".
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Last edited by tecoyah; 04-23-2004 at 07:07 PM..
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:58 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
*snip*

Sparhawk,

Believe it or not, I understand the point you are making.

There are many topics that I think are done to death as well posters that are narrowly focused (from all points of the political spectrum).

Still, I put up with it so long as it takes a new angle, and that I think is what jcook6 has done.

Sure, he bashes Kerry, but he is doing it with different news articles on different topics.

Are they petty?

Well, that seems to be a good topic for debate.

But I would be remiss if I didn't say that you aren't forced to open his threads and read them


cheers,

-lebell
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Old 04-23-2004, 11:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah

NY Roast-
After a complete review of the presidents war record, a glaring discrepancy has come to light.
George W. Bush, while in the Texas Air Nat'l Guard, was claimed to have had three(3) cavities and a loose filling. However, this reporter has found that the level of decay in his left upper bicuscus, was not so severe as to merit the term "Cavity". In fact Dr. theodore biswell, the base dentist remembers specifically the decay was only superficial and did not require the use of drill or filling. Further investigation shows Mr. Bush was regularly late for his appointments, and was entirely absent from scheduled appointments on at least one occasion.
"We expect some level of tardiness from pilots here on the base", Mr. Biswell was quoted as saying."But this guy was only seen on base two or three times a year, and then only for the free dental check ups". A spokesman for Mr Bush explained," Don't you want a president with a pretty smile, this man does after all represent the United States of America".
If I may borrow a catchphrase....BRILLIANT!

The level of "nitpicky" I've seen in some of these articles is appalling. If you're going to be a Kerry detractor, find something that matters. He's a politician....I'm sure there are some legitimate issues that ol' "live shot" has "waffled on." Put those up, let's discuss them.

To resort to this stuff.

Putting crap like this up here only serves to further polarize the board and, in the end, only serves to lower the collective IQ of it's participants.

Spreading stupidity makes my wookiee cry.
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Old 04-24-2004, 02:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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While these "nitpicky" articles do get annoying, let's be honest, there have been just as many going the other way. Besides, I like to know what the wackos on the right are thinking, I already know what the wackos on the left are thinking.
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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compare:

Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
You could have just said something like, "This is just another anti-Kerry article with no substance" and made your point.
and:

Quote:
Still, I put up with it so long as it takes a new angle, and that I think is what jcook6 has done.

Sure, he bashes Kerry, but he is doing it with different news articles on different topics.

Are they petty?

Well, that seems to be a good topic for debate.

But I would be remiss if I didn't say that you aren't forced to open his threads and read them
So conservative trolling is ok, but liberal zippy comebacks are not? OH THE HUMANITY. THE MODS ARE BIASED.

Personally, I click and open conservative troll articles like jcooks' so I can read Sparhawk's zippy comebacks.

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Old 04-24-2004, 03:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was in the same branch of Service as J.F. Kerry(no nicknames) was, The United States Naval Reserve. I didnt have a choice to go anyplace and ended up in the Middle East. by the Way, Kerry was born 6 days after me, so I have been aware of him for all of this stuff. You know, the anti war stuff, and his years in public office. Most people probably never heard of him, other than a mention of something in the senate. But then again he has been mainly invisable there, hardly ever shows up for votes, and never sponsers any legislation of note.
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcookc6
and never sponsers any legislation of note.
Funny. This list:
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/is...islation.html#
seems awfully long for someone who doesn't sponsor anything.
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Old 04-24-2004, 07:21 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
So conservative trolling is ok, but liberal zippy comebacks are not?
I think that the following:

Quote:
Are they petty?

Well, that seems to be a good topic for debate.
is not trolling, in my opinion.

The reason? It calls the subject matter into question by asserting it can be debated. It does not attack the poster him- or herself as to their posting "habits", and calling them "nitpicky".

I don't think this is an example of bias at all.
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Old 04-24-2004, 10:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
So conservative trolling is ok, but liberal zippy comebacks are not? OH THE HUMANITY. THE MODS ARE BIASED.

[/B]
Yup, Guilty as charged.

There, are we all happy now?

Next.
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Old 04-25-2004, 03:06 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Oh my God!!! The mods are human.
*sweeps up the shattered image of perfection*

I really hope you guys/girls are there to shut me up before I get myself into trouble (which will eventually happen on this forum).

And having a Bias against needless pettiness, seems to me a good trait in a Moderator.
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Old 04-25-2004, 08:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Yup, Guilty as charged.

There, are we all happy now?

Next.


Here's the best part, my post mimicing jcook's that I posted as a test got moved to tilted humor by Analog.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=53480

So conservative outrageous claim = defended by mods as ok.

Liberal outrageous claim = censored by moving to tilted humor.

I SEE HOW IT IS NOW. HELP HELP I'M BEING OPPRESSED.
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Old 04-25-2004, 09:59 AM   #23 (permalink)
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It's the violence inherent in the system, you know...

Besides, you'll have to take that up with analog.

We don't coordinate our oppression.
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:02 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
We don't coordinate our oppression.
There's not a big TFP star-chamber where you plot your assaults against liberals?

I had visions of a big room with a bunch of large displays, low lights and cigars all around.
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
There's not a big TFP star-chamber where you plot your assaults against liberals?

I had visions of a big room with a bunch of large displays, low lights and cigars all around.
Something like this?

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Old 04-25-2004, 10:40 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
Something like this?

That's planned for TFP v4.0


This is our current "Star Chamber"






For some odd reason, the meeting attendance has been down.
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Old 04-26-2004, 11:17 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Back on topic, I almost created a new thread, but it's pretty much the same type of thing. I watch Good Morning America every morning, because we only have one local channel with a morning show, and it's on ABC. To my suprise, there was a pretty intense grilling (for GMA) of Kerry about the throwing-his-medals story. Though it doesn't mention it in this (text below) article, I heard him say on a clip from a local talk show at the time that he threw his actual medals. He's been saying, and said again in the interview today that he threw his ribbons but someone else's medals, and tried to explain that ribons and medals are interchangeable, and were both symbols of his country. It looks to me like he either embellished then or is denying now what he did.

I thought it was admirable when he said a few months ago that Bush's national guard record was not relevant, and it appeared that he was trying to step above the Democratic campaigners digging for dirt. However, in this interview he said several times that (paraphrased) this was just an attack by the campaign of a man that has not answered questions about his whereabouts in his national guard service during that time. So much for being above the fray.

This should go a long way toward fending off charges of ABC news having a liberal bias, because I thought it made Kerry look REAL bad. Then again, this story may not have "legs" and blow over. What do ya'll think?

Quote:

In a videotape from 1971, obtained exclusively by ABCNEWS, Vietnam veteran John Kerry said he gave back his medals in order to "wake the country."
ABCNEWS.com

Discarded Decorations
Videotape Contradicts John Kerry’s Own Statements Over Vietnam Medals
By Brian Ross and Chris Vlasto
ABCNEWS.com
April 26— Contradicting his statements as a candidate for president, Sen. John Kerry claimed in a 1971 television interview that he threw away as many as nine of his combat medals to protest the war in Vietnam.




"I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals," Kerry said in an interview on a Washington, D.C., news program on WRC-TV called Viewpoints on Nov. 6, 1971, according to a tape obtained by ABCNEWS.
Throughout his presidential campaign, Kerry has denied that he threw away any of his medals during an anti-war protest in April 1971.

Calling it a "phony controversy" instigated by the Republican party, Kerry said on Good Morning America today that he has always accurately said what took place. "I threw my ribbons. I didn't have my medals. It is very simple."

He also said he — and the military — didn't make a distinction between medals and ribbons. "We threw away the symbols of what our country gave us for what we had gone through," he said.

And in an interview with ABCNEWS' Peter Jennings last December, he said it was a "myth."

But Kerry told a much different story on Viewpoints. Asked about the anti-war veterans who threw their medals away, Kerry said "they decided to give them back to their country."

Kerry was asked if he gave back the Bronze Star, Silver Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for combat duty as a Navy lieutenant in Vietnam. "Well, and above that, [I] gave back the others," he said.

The statement directly contradicts Kerry's most recent claims on the disputed subject to the Los Angeles Times last Friday. "I never ever implied that I did it, " Kerry told the newspaper, responding to the question of whether he threw away his medals in protest.

"I'm proud of my medals. I always was proud of them," he told Jennings in December, adding that he had only thrown away his "ribbons" and the medals of two other veterans who could not attend the protest.

Flip Flop?

The disputed incident happened 33 years ago this past weekend, on April 23, 1971, when Kerry led the group Vietnam Veterans Against the War in a protest against the war they fought.

Many veterans were seen throwing their medals and ribbons over the fence in front of the U.S. Capitol. The Boston Globe and other newspapers reported that Kerry was among these veterans.

"In a real sense, this administration forced us to return our medals because beyond the perversion of the war, these leaders themselves denied us the integrity those symbols supposedly gave our lives," Kerry said the following day.

But in 1984, when he first ran for the U.S. Senate, Kerry revealed he still had his medals. According to a Boston Globe report on April 15, 1984, union officials had expressed uneasiness with Kerry's candidacy because he had thrown his medals away. Kerry acknowledged the medals he threw away were, in fact, another soldier's medals. He reportedly invited a union official home to personally inspect his Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, awarded for his combat duty as a Navy lieutenant.

In the 1971 Viewpoints interview, he made no mention of the ribbons or the medals belonging to another veteran.

And in 1988, Kerry again clarified his statement by saying he threw out ribbons he had been awarded for three combat wounds, but not his medals. "I was proud of my personal service and remain so," he told the National Journal.

Eight years later in 1996, Kerry said while he did throw out his ribbons, he didn't throw out his own medals because he "didn't have time to go home [to New York] and get them," he told The Boston Globe.

Kerry's campaign Web site says he "is proud of the work he did to end the war. The Nixon Administration made John Kerry one of its targets and Republicans have been smearing him ever since. John Kerry threw his ribbons and the medals of two veterans who could not attend the event, and said, 'I am not doing this for any violent reasons, but for peace and justice, and to try to make this country wake up once and for all.'"

ABCNEWS' Madeleine Sauer contributed to this report.
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Old 04-26-2004, 04:27 PM   #28 (permalink)
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How does this make Kerry look bad?

What significance are you attaching to this latest story that you posted?

I can't understand if people are really trying to convince me about Kerry's integrity based on a single line of commentary from over 20 years ago. If that's what you want to base your vote on, that's fine with me--it's none of my business what your reasons are.

If you want to hold criticism of Bush up as an example, I draw a distinction, however, between accusations of being AWOL and wanting to find out if they were true and lying, mispeaking, or being misunderstood about whether one tossed his medals (AFAIK, only some very far-fetched commentators have questioned whether they were earned) or someone else's. For one, the latter isn't illegal.

But it doesn't matter to me. I didn't base my vote, even partially, on whether Bush was AWOL. To my mind, it didn't even become an issue until various right-wing voices began questioning the integrity and patriotism of Democrats. IIRC, that's about the time Kerry made his service become an issue.

So I find it bizarre that you criticise Kerry for "switching" stances regarding whether Bush's military career was relevant. He thought it wasn't germaine then, nor have I seen him use it as an issue now. But he certainly has a right to defend himself, in my eyes, against allegations that he is weak on defense, unpatriotic, doesn't care about the troops, and etc.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Smooth:

Quote:
How does this make Kerry look bad?

What significance are you attaching to this latest story that you posted?

I can't understand if people are really trying to convince me about Kerry's integrity based on a single line of commentary from over 20 years ago. If that's what you want to base your vote on, that's fine with me--it's none of my business what your reasons are.

(snip..)

So I find it bizarre that you criticise Kerry for "switching" stances regarding whether Bush's military career was relevant.

He thought it wasn't germaine then, nor have I seen him use it as an issue now.
Say what you want about Bush, I don't think anyone questions his steadfastness, resolve, and firm convictions. On the other hand, not only has Kerry waffled back and forth on many issues, but he has so many stories about what happened, and his answers are so nuanced that his credibility can be questioned.

Though Charlie Gibson wisely did not, he would have been within his journalistic rights, after reading Kerry's statements recently about his medals incident, and then playing the clip, to ask Kerry, "so were you lying then or are you lying now?" Kerry was caught in an absolute contradiction, and responded by going after Bush's national guard service, just months after he had stated that it wasn't relevant, and criticizing those that were bringing it up. This was yet another change in one of his positions.

Quote:
But he certainly has a right to defend himself, in my eyes, against allegations that he is weak on defense, unpatriotic, doesn't care about the troops, and etc.
He was not accused of being weak on defense, unpatriotic, or not caring about the troops.
He was being accused, albeit impliedly, of changing his story to be politically expedient at the time.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:50 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
So conservative trolling is ok, but liberal zippy comebacks are not? OH THE HUMANITY. THE MODS ARE BIASED.
Yeah, all those neo-cons like me
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