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Old 04-27-2004, 01:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Is it time to dump Kerry?

I just read this commentary from James Ridgeway with the Village voice. I think he is right. What do you all think? Should the democrats get rid of Kerry before it's too late?

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0417/mondo1.php

Mondo Washington
by James Ridgeway
John Kerry Must Go
Note to Democrats: it's not too late to draft someone—anyone—else
April 27th, 2004 11:45 AM

WASHINGTON, D.C.— With the air gushing out of John Kerry's balloon, it may be only a matter of time until political insiders in Washington face the dread reality that the junior senator from Massachusetts doesn't have what it takes to win and has got to go. As arrogant and out of it as the Democratic political establishment is, even these pols know the party's got to have someone to run against George Bush. They can't exactly expect the president to self-destruct into thin air.

With growing issues over his wealth (which makes fellow plutocrat Bush seem a charity case by comparison), the miasma over his medals and ribbons (or ribbons and medals), his uninspiring record in the Senate (yes war, no war), and wishy-washy efforts to mimic Bill Clinton's triangulation gimmickry (the protractor factor), Kerry sinks day by day. The pros all know that the candidate who starts each morning by having to explain himself is a goner.

What to do? Look for the Dem biggies, whoever they are these days, to sit down with the rich and arrogant presumptive nominee and try to persuade him to take a hike. Then they can return to business as usual—resurrecting John Edwards, who is still hanging around, or staging an open convention in Boston, or both.

If things proceed as they are, the dim-bulb Dem leaders are going to be very sorry they screwed Howard Dean.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Howard Dean was their best shot.

No, the Dems will proudly go down with the Kerry ship and blame Republicans because they couldn't offer a better alternative to the American public than Kerry.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Lebell
Howard Dean was their best shot.

No, the Dems will proudly go down with the Kerry ship and blame Republicans because they couldn't offer a better alternative to the American public than Kerry.
I agree on both points. It’s a good thing that the Dems can always blame the "Republican attack machine" or the "vast right wing conspiracy" instead of confronting the true problems that the party faces. I think democrats are completely out of touch with their voters. They always make their constituency into bigger victims than they really are. I think Americans think higher of themselves than do the Democratic Party. According to them we are all in soup lines and are too stupid to figure out how to get out of them.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Lebell
Howard Dean was their best shot.

Excuse my lack of memory, but was Howard Dean the guy who let out a " Yip yip Hooray Whoo Hoooooo" in the middle of a speech he was giving a few months back?

If that's the guy, your right he would have the best chance against Bush. Both men seem rather characteristically similar.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't want to elect Kerry but Bush can't stay in office. I don't think Kerry could possibly do a worse job, especially if he picks up Edwards.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have believed that an Edwards/Lieberman ticket could probably beat Bush/Cheney. And I still think so, which means I truly hope they DON'T drop Kerry, since he's helping out Bush's chances more and more all the time.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally posted by djtestudo
I have believed that an Edwards/Lieberman ticket could probably beat Bush/Cheney. And I still think so, which means I truly hope they DON'T drop Kerry, since he's helping out Bush's chances more and more all the time.
As a republican, I must concur.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Edwards/Lieberman (or, preferably, Lieberman/Edwards) is a ticket I would have most likely voted for. I'm pretty much a centrist, so my vote can go either way since I disagree about as much as I agree with both candidates a lot of the time. So, in this election, at laest between the two primary candidates, I have two options: 1) Bush, the guy who, while he may not be perfect, is straight-forward about his intentions for the most part and who you know where he stands, and 2) Kerry, who is like a fish, wriggling back and forth between the issues, and is running a campaign based on hate and being the Anti-Bush rather than saying why he'd actually be a GOOD president. Character says a lot when you're a centrist like me, and Kerry has got none.

That said, I find it amusing all the wishful thinking now that Kerry would drop out or be dropped. I think speculating these scenarios is really a worthless waste of time - it's something that simply doesn't happen and won't happen.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecretMethod70
I think speculating these scenarios is really a worthless waste of time - it's something that simply doesn't happen and won't happen.
It may happen with this long of a political season. We have the whole summer. Most times the season does not start until after Labor Day. There is a lot of time for the dems to really take in who they have chosen and for John Kerry to wriggle around some more. Just something to consider.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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not knowing anything about james ridgeway, i should point out that the village voice is very much a left-of-center publication. the fact that james ridgeway believes that the DNC will regret that they let howard dean go suggests he's not got winning on his mind, but ideology.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I say let the Democrats decide. Let the convention do it's thing.

But god dammit....don't wait till the last minute like they did with that criminal Torrecelli and take it a court, tp get your own rules overturned, when you realize your guy is a looser.

If you do, well then...you loose, afai concerned.

(although I'm sure some off his rocker judge will sympatize *sigh*)

-bear

I might go with any ticket which has Edwards on it btw...
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Before everyone goes writting Kerry off, this is a LOOOONNNGGG campaign and we are only in the opening stages. Kerry's campaign does not have a great deal of money and is conserving funds to do a big build up before the convention. He is being attacked pretty effectively by both Bush and Cheney and he simply does not have the resources to fight back right now. He need a V.P. to help with fighting back and spreading his agenda as well as assisting with fund-raising. Unfortuately Kerry is known to sit back a bit during elections, but he has always ended strong.

Is he the ideal candidate - probably not, but barring anything crazy, he will be the Democratic Nominee and believe it or not he can win. However, second term elections are always a referrendum on how the President is doing, so Bush is in the driver's seat.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecretMethod70
2) Kerry, who is like a fish, wriggling back and forth between the issues, and is running a campaign based on hate and being the Anti-Bush rather than saying why he'd actually be a GOOD president. Character says a lot when you're a centrist like me, and Kerry has got none.
It's funny how when the press says something enough, it becomes true.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Wow,

You're attacking him like he's a Republican instead of the guy who was almost the Democratic Presidential nominee

Anyway, I posted at the time that his infamous "yell" was taken out of context and was really a non-issue.

Quote:
Originally posted by OFKU0
Excuse my lack of memory, but was Howard Dean the guy who let out a " Yip yip Hooray Whoo Hoooooo" in the middle of a speech he was giving a few months back?

If that's the guy, your right he would have the best chance against Bush. Both men seem rather characteristically similar.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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At this point, it seems that they're going to keep Kerry. As for the Bush vs. Kerry issue, I think it was Mae West who said: When choosing between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before.
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Old 04-27-2004, 05:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Kadath
It's funny how when the press says something enough, it becomes true.
Yep.
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Old 04-27-2004, 05:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mml
Before everyone goes writting Kerry off, this is a LOOOONNNGGG campaign and we are only in the opening stages. Kerry's campaign does not have a great deal of money and is conserving funds to do a big build up before the convention. He is being attacked pretty effectively by both Bush and Cheney and he simply does not have the resources to fight back right now. He need a V.P. to help with fighting back and spreading his agenda as well as assisting with fund-raising. Unfortuately Kerry is known to sit back a bit during elections, but he has always ended strong.
I really admire your positive spirit when referring to John Kerry. You really don’t hear too many real Kerry supporters. I've seen a few of your posts since joining a few days ago and all your posts about John Kerry are very up-beat no matter what the issue at hand. Your optimism is very refreshing. Thanks mml.
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Anyway, I posted at the time that his infamous "yell" was taken out of context and was really a non-issue.
Out of ALL the possible things a politican could do to ruin a chance of a nomination, a yell is a joke. I agreed with Dean on a majority of issues. If Dean was the canidate, I'd vote for him in a heart beat.
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
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http://www.americandaily.com/item/5500
Quote:
Polls: Two polls came out last week showing President Bush defeating John Kerry by about the same 5-point margin. CNN/USATODAY/GALLUP and the WASHINGTON POST/ABC polls seemed to offer good news to the President - and bad news to the Kerry camp.

Fox News Channel's Brit Hume roundtable on Thursday night reviewed these polls - as did other networks and commentators - with the spin that Bush "is on the rebound."

Funny, but the best and most accurate pollster - John Zogby, theonly pollster to have the 2000 deadlock right on - shows Kerry narrowly (47%-44%) ahead of Bush. Yet none of these reports mentioned this poll. I guess it got in the way of the "Bush Rebounds" headline they were promoting.
I guess I missed the part where Kerry was washed up. Personally, all these Kerry issues seem like small potatoes compared to the mess in Iraq and the mess in the Economy. I think Kerry is doing exactly right by taking the high road and ignoring the personal attacks. Much like it worked for Bush when questions about his past cocaine usage came up during the election campaign.
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Old 04-27-2004, 07:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
It's funny how when the press says something enough, it becomes true.
This is very true. However, it's not hard to look into Kerry's voting record and to watch what he says himself when interviewed, and he is in fact shifty. Not as bad or in all the ways the Republicans would like to say he is, but shifty nonetheless.
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Old 04-27-2004, 07:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Wow,

You're attacking him like he's a Republican instead of the guy who was almost the Democratic Presidential nominee

Yeah well, I think in another thread I was regarded as an idealist, so it's up to me to withhold that label.

It doesn't matter who the President is or his party line as long as his competency level is somewhere near the top of the list
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Old 04-27-2004, 08:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally posted by SecretMethod70
This is very true. However, it's not hard to look into Kerry's voting record and to watch what he says himself when interviewed, and he is in fact shifty. Not as bad or in all the ways the Republicans would like to say he is, but shifty nonetheless.
Personally, I have to go way back to remember a president that wasn't. Bush Jr. is shifty (example: Kyoto treaty), Clinton was shifty (example: I did not have sex with that woman), Bush Sr. was shifty (example: read my lips, no new taxes).

I guess Reagan doesn't seem shifty to me, but I was too young to care about politics then.

In an age where the most admired exec, Bill Gates, can get into an argument about the meaning of "is", I guess I've just come to expect it out of leaders and politicians.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:41 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by assilem
I really admire your positive spirit when referring to John Kerry. You really don’t hear too many real Kerry supporters. I've seen a few of your posts since joining a few days ago and all your posts about John Kerry are very up-beat no matter what the issue at hand. Your optimism is very refreshing. Thanks mml.
Thanks assilem, my feelings about Senator Kerry stem from the fact that I have actually researched his background and studied his proposals and for the most part I like what I see. I try not to just take what I hear, see or read in the media, I like to look a bit deeper. I also am a realist and understand that after so many years in the Senate, you are going to be able to spin his voting record any way you want. I guess it is the price for doing something for your country and it is also why it is so difficult Senators and Congressmen to win the Presidency in this day and age. I also have met him and genuinely like him.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Personally, I have to go way back to remember a president that wasn't. (shifty)
Or any politician who is 100% consistent in their voting record. How many weapons systems did Cheney get rid of?

The fact is that situations change and it's important to be flexible enough to change to reflect the conditions. During the 90's we were disarming from the cold war. It was a different situation. And those votes are going to be held against Kerry? I'd like to see how many conservatives voted against those systems too.

There can be many other reasons why a legislator will vote for or against a bill. Often there will be amendments inserted into otherwise good bills that make them unpalletable. The sponsors of bills will sometimes withdraw their sponsorship because of bad amendments. Does anyone acuse them of being "shifty"? Sometimes senators will "trade votes." A "I'll vote for your bill if you'll vote for mine" kind of thing. It's how business gets done. So I really have a hard time seeing how you can hold votes on individual bills against anyone. A general voting record, yes, "he voted against this bill", no.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally posted by mml
Kerry's campaign does not have a great deal of money and is conserving funds to do a big build up before the convention. He is being attacked pretty effectively by both Bush and Cheney and he simply does not have the resources to fight back right now. He need a V.P. to help with fighting back and spreading his agenda as well as assisting with fund-raising. Unfortuately Kerry is known to sit back a bit during elections, but he has always ended strong.
What we're seeing in this thread is a lot of short-sighted analysis. We're looking at the election from a point, and not with knowledge of the past and anticipation of the future. Kerry is not actually at a funding disadvantage right now. The Bush campaign just spent about $50 million on an ad blitz, and has rather little to show for it. Money is important, but not the key. Just ask Karl Rove, or any Democrat for that matter.

So that's one thing to keep in mind, that Bush just spent a shitload of money. Another thing to remember is that Kerry has raised considerable amounts of money, and that even during the primary, the aggregate donations to Democratic candidates matched up favorably to the money raised by Bush. So, don't go with the conventional wisdom that Kerry will be grossly outspent: it's just not true.

Second, in much the same way that Republicans like to defend Bush's low re-elect numbers a few months back by saying his campaign hasn't started, I would contend that Kerry hasn't really gotten into full swing with his campaign either. There are tactical and strategic reasons for this. First, tactically, Kerry has little reason to try to compete with generally negative Iraq news for converage. Second, he seems to be using a broader strategy of starting his campaign later in the season. This is a gamble, but one that might pay off. The idea is that people won't really pay that much attention now anyway, and an intense 60-90 day campaign near the election date will be much more effective. Also, it will help to negate spending by Bush before the Kerry campaign really gets going.

Why Kerry? While I sympathize with the difficult situation our President is in, I think it requires more than tough talk. Bush has failed to follow up his good intentions with smart policies that work. I think that's the biggest reason I can give for Kerry. Kerry brings experience and honesty to the job. Bush and Rove are too concerned with reelection and building a Republican dynasty in Washington.
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:36 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Personally, I have to go way back to remember a president that wasn't. Bush Jr. is shifty (example: Kyoto treaty), Clinton was shifty (example: I did not have sex with that woman), Bush Sr. was shifty (example: read my lips, no new taxes).

I guess Reagan doesn't seem shifty to me, but I was too young to care about politics then.

In an age where the most admired exec, Bill Gates, can get into an argument about the meaning of "is", I guess I've just come to expect it out of leaders and politicians.
This is true, and it's also true that there are lots of reasons for opinions to change. I'm not saying Bush is much better, but at least I haven't heard him contradict himself within a single interview (granted, he doesn't do interviews now that he's president, so I suppose it's an unfair comparison). This is why I would have loved to see Lieberman or Edwards as the candidate - both of them are much better PEOPLE than Bush or Kerry IMO. Of course, I'm almost definitely going to vote 3rd party anyways provided I find a candidate there that I agree with more. It's a difficult time to be a centrist right now with Bush and Kerry as the candidates. Then again, maybe now that we're out of primary season, Kerry will stop taking so many cards out of the Dean playbook as it seemed he did then, slowly shifting more and more left. Maybe he'll self-corredct and move back towards the center again as the race goes on. Only time will tell, and that's why I couldn't possibly say who I'm definitely voting for at this point.
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Old 04-28-2004, 01:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Give me a break. The only people I see even entertaining that question are right-wing Republicans and delusional Dean/Nader supporters(like James Ridgeway), all of whom would love to see Kerry lose and Bush win. These guys would be bashing the Dem. nominee no matter who it was, other than Dean of course. If Edwards had won, for example, these same guys would be saying that the Dems made the wrong choice in picking the young and inexperienced junior senator because they thought he could beat Bush rather than because of his position on the issues.

The bottom line is that Democratic primary voters have overwhelming thrown their support behind Kerry and he will be their nominee. Kerry is running about even with the President, even after the onslaught of Bush attack ads and petty media attacks. It's still very very early and to suggest that Democrats need to dump Kerry at this point is simply ridiculous.
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:14 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Real Kerry supporters, who are actually voting FOR him and not against Bush are kind of hard to find. Regardless, the difference between the candidates is smaller than the margin of error. I think the election will be entirely decided on the state of the war in Iraq and the economy when we get closer to the election. I just wish I could find a way to isolate myself from the mass media for the next 6 months .
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:03 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The Dems are stuck with Kerry and there is very little doubt about that. Our political system is really not that dynamic compared to where we are with modern transmission of information and it would not support a switch at this point. Kerry has the delegates pledged and the rest is a formality.

I wish he would drop the Universal Healthcare farce and some of his other spending intensive - tax raising - programs. If the Dems had choosen a moderate to run this fall instead of this fellow, they might have gotten my vote.

As it stands now, I want to set my vote on fire. I am unhappy with my choices in a big way.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:54 AM   #30 (permalink)
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http://www.americandaily.com/item/5500


compared to the mess in Iraq and the mess in the Economy.
Umm what mess with the economy? 4.2% growth is pretty nice.
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