Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-19-2004, 06:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: Grey Britain
Israelis allegedly murder ten protesters, including two children.

I honestly don't know how anybody can continue to support or sanction Israel when this kind of thing is going on. I think this article speaks for itself.

Link

And before you ask, no I don't support the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers either.
__________________
"No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

Last edited by John Henry; 05-19-2004 at 11:28 AM..
John Henry is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 06:57 AM   #2 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
As with most stories in their early stages, I will wait till the details are confirmed and made available. I have a difficult time believing the witness accounts of 4 missiles from a helicopter, tank shells, and machine fire into a crowd of 3000 resulted in "only" 10 deaths and 50 injured. Unless there are lots more victims still unknown it seems out of whack.

Something isn't quite right about this story as it stands.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 07:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
Insane
 
assilem's Avatar
 
Location: Eternity
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
As with most stories in their early stages, I will wait till the details are confirmed and made available. I have a difficult time believing the witness accounts of 4 missiles from a helicopter, tank shells, and machine fire into a crowd of 3000 resulted in "only" 10 deaths and 50 injured. Unless there are lots more victims still unknown it seems out of whack.

Something isn't quite right about this story as it stands.
Not only that, but the story is out of the Guardian. One of the most liberal and anti-Israel rags in Europe.
__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels
assilem is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 09:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junk
 
Rueters showed the footage on t.v.

Nothing new, this happens everyday.

I'm waiting to read the National Post (Canadian pro-Israeli rag) tomorrow to see how many times "human shield" is used. I guess bulldozing a refugee camp and leaving a 1000 people homeless wasn't good enough. Oppps,.. my bad. I just called the Palestinian's a 'people' when they are not recognized as such, especially by the Israeli's and any other racists who think that way.
__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.
OFKU0 is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 09:51 AM   #5 (permalink)
The Northern Ward
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by OFKU0
Rueters showed the footage on t.v.

Nothing new, this happens everyday.

I'm waiting to read the National Post (Canadian pro-Israeli rag) tomorrow to see how many times "human shield" is used. I guess bulldozing a refugee camp and leaving a 1000 people homeless wasn't good enough. Oppps,.. my bad. I just called the Palestinian's a 'people' when they are not recognized as such, especially by the Israeli's and any other racists who think that way.
Well, the broad brushes tickle the most.

That said, fuck the Palestinians. We aren't getting anywhere saying "Hay guys, lets be friends k?"
__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy
Phaenx is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 09:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by OFKU0
Rueters showed the footage on t.v.

Nothing new, this happens everyday.

Was the footage the aftermath or the actual event?
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:14 AM   #7 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Please post content, not just links:

Quote:
10 Dead, 50 Hurt in Gaza Strip Explosion

Wednesday May 19, 2004 2:31 PM


By KEVIN FRAYER

Associated Press Writer

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) - A large explosion ripped through a crowd of Palestinians demonstrating Wednesday against an Israeli invasion of a neighboring refugee camp, killing at least 10 people, most of them children, and wounding at least 50, Palestinian witnesses and medical workers said.

The Palestinians said Israeli forces fired tank shells, helicopter missiles and machine guns at the crowd.

Associated Press Television News footage showed a large explosion going off in a crowd of demonstrators, followed by Palestinians carrying the wounded - including children and teenagers - from the smoky scene.

Military sources said on condition of anonymity that one helicopter missile and one tank shell had been fired. Defense sources said senior officers, including the chief of staff, were in an emergency meeting to investigate the incident.

``We are still checking the event. This is a combat zone filled with explosives devices and it is premature to know exactly what happened this afternoon in Rafah,'' army spokeswoman Maj. Sharon Feingold said.

The wounded were evacuated to the Rafah hospital by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts, witnesses said. The hospital stairs and floors were drenched in blood as doctors shouted for help and blood donations. Hospital staff treated the wounded on the floors after quickly running out of beds.

``We cannot handle the situation, no hospital in the world can handle the situation,'' said Dr. Moawiya Hassanain, a senior official for the Palestinian Health Ministry.

``I got instruction from President (Yasser) Arafat to mobilize all our teams to Rafah immediately and declare a state of emergency all over Gaza Strip hospitals.''

Hassanain said at least 10 people were killed and at least 50 others wounded. He said the hospital had received numerous body parts and could not yet give an exact death toll.

Shabtai Gold, a spokesman for Physicians for Human Rights, said 12 ambulances from nearby Khan Younis traveled to Rafah to evacuate the wounded.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath told The Associated Press the attack was ``a terrorist massacre and a terrorist war crime.''

An estimated 3,000 people were demonstrating against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles.

The strike came as Israeli troops stormed homes in the Palestinian refugee camp in an ongoing search for militants and illegal weapons, confining tens of thousands of residents to houses without electricity or water.

The invasion, launched Tuesday, knocked out power in the camp, home to an estimated 90,000 people, local Palestinian officials said. By Wednesday, they said, water service had been halted as well.

Twenty Palestinians - the highest single-day death toll in more than two years - were killed on the first day of the army's ``Operation Rainbow'' offensive. The victims included a 13-year-old boy and his 16-year-old sister.

International condemnation mounted against the operation, and the United States was asking Israel for ``clarification,'' said Paul Patin, spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv.

President Bush has described the violence as ``troubling'' but said Israel had the right to defend itself from terrorism.

The United Nations and European Union demanded an end to the incursion, which Israeli security officials said would last at least a week.

The massive invasion - the largest in the Gaza Strip in years - came less than a week after Palestinian militants killed 13 soldiers, including seven in the Rafah area.

Israel said it was targeting armed militants, but Palestinians said many of Tuesday's casualties were civilians.

Palestinians said the teenage brother and sister were killed by an Israeli sniper as they gathered laundry from their rooftop.

But the military said an initial investigation found no Israeli soldiers had fired in that area at the time of the shootings. The military said the two apparently were killed by a Palestinian bomb aimed at troops.

Early Wednesday, the army said it demolished the home of Ibrahim Ahmed, an Islamic Jihad militant it said was responsible for a shooting attack earlier this month that killed a pregnant Israeli woman and her four daughters near a Gaza settlement. Palestinian witnesses said at least three homes were demolished overnight.

Ali Bayomi, a 55-year-old resident of Rafah, said soldiers disguised as Hamas militants arrested two of his cousins and were using the men as human shields as they conducted searches of homes. The army did not comment.

Salwa Abu Jazar, a 33-year-old mother of four, said the noise from combat helicopters and shooting kept her family up much of the night.

``There is no water, no electricity, and it is very hard to move inside the house using candles because snipers in the building next door will shoot you,'' Abu Jazar said.

The army said it shot and hit two armed men overnight in Rafah. Palestinian residents said one man was shot in the head and stomach, the other in the leg. They said the intense fighting was making it hard for ambulances to evacuate the dead and wounded.

The facades of Rafah buildings were riddled with holes from Israeli machine guns. Residents said the rocket and gun fire had confined them to the innermost rooms of their homes.

Saleem Katib, 25, said his ailing, elderly father went to morning prayers early Tuesday and still had not returned. Trapped by the fighting and the military curfew, the man was holed up near the mosque with other worshippers, his son said.

``How can you believe that a man can't reach his home when he is only 20 meters away?'' Katib said.

In all, 19 Palestinians were killed Tuesday by Israeli fire - 10 in two separate missile strikes and nine by machine-gun fire, Hassanain said. A 20th man was killed while handling explosives.

Arafat denounced the incursion as a ``planned massacre.''

``What is happening in Rafah is an operation to destroy and to transfer the local Palestinian population, and this must not be accepted, not by the Palestinians, nor the Arabs, nor by the international community,'' an angry Arafat told reporters at his West Bank compound.

Israel's Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected a petition by 46 Rafah residents against demolition of their homes, giving the army the right to tear down buildings that could be used for attacking troops.

Troops demolished four houses Tuesday, witnesses said. The Israeli army chief, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, said homes would be destroyed only if gunmen used them as firing positions or to cover up tunnels.

Mohammed Dahlan, a former chief of Palestinian security in Gaza who is considered to have pro-Western views, said the United States had the power to stop the incursion - but would not in an election year.

``I don't expect any serious move by the Americans to put an end to the ongoing aggression, because if the Americans want to end it, they can stop it by one statement, but they don't want to,'' Dahlan told a radio station in Gaza.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." Ė C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
As with most stories in their early stages, I will wait till the details are confirmed and made available. I have a difficult time believing the witness accounts of 4 missiles from a helicopter, tank shells, and machine fire into a crowd of 3000 resulted in "only" 10 deaths and 50 injured. Unless there are lots more victims still unknown it seems out of whack.

Something isn't quite right about this story as it stands.
Agreed.

Of course I haven't heard any condemnation from the world over the 13 soldiers murdered.

Also, the Palestinians and the Arabs in general don't have a good track record when it comes to accuracy in reporting.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." Ė C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Note:

I am also annoyed at the title of this thread, considering that no one knows exactly what happened.

It seems that it is designed to troll.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." Ė C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
Insane
 
assilem's Avatar
 
Location: Eternity
Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Note:

I am also annoyed at the title of this thread, considering that no one knows exactly what happened.

It seems that it is designed to troll.
Most threads here ARE designed to troll. I think it is the nature of a political board. If we all held the same political philosophies there would be no trolling. Catch my drift?

Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
That said, fuck the Palestinians. We aren't getting anywhere saying "Hay guys, lets be friends k?"
I agree. I say give them (the Palestinians) their own UN recognized state and then letís see if they play nice. If they don't, Israel could declare open war after a terrorist bombing. Enough of this tit for tat crap.
__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels
assilem is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 11:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
Junk
 
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Was the footage the aftermath or the actual event?
It showed the Apaches firing missiles and people running in all directions. Not sure if it was CNN or CBC

This is CBC.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/19...st_rafah040519

Agreed to the above poster. Give the Palestinian's a state. They fuck up, no more state. In fairness the same concessions should be applied to Israel. Antagonize the Palestinian's into a war for a land grab, no more state. Fair is fair in love and war.


Anyways, soldiers killed, civilians killed, nothing ever changes. Like some have said in other threads, war is war, people get killed. I'm out.
__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Last edited by OFKU0; 05-19-2004 at 11:13 AM..
OFKU0 is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 11:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: Grey Britain
Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Note:

I am also annoyed at the title of this thread, considering that no one knows exactly what happened.

It seems that it is designed to troll.
Quote:
Twenty Palestinians - the highest single-day death toll in more than two years - were killed on the first day of the army's ``Operation Rainbow'' offensive. The victims included a 13-year-old boy and his 16-year-old sister.
It's right there in the article. Reported incidentally, but still there.

As for the murders reported in the main body of the article, do you discredit these because they have only been reported by Palestinians?

Just a point of terminology. If a soldier is killed in a combat situation, for example as an occupying force in a foreign country, it does not usually constitute murder, as it does not ordinarily fulfil the criterion of unlawfulness.

When civilians are killed in a situation where they have not initiated any military engagement, it is murder.

The title of this thread was not intended to troll. I phrased it in a way that I hoped would attract attention, because I feel it is an important issue and something that people should know about.

As far as I understand the situation, the title of this thread was simply a statement of fact.

When armed adults wilfully kill innocent children, it is murder.

If a neighbour of the child killed a neighbour of the adult, it is still murder.

Whether the adult is an Israeli or a Palestinian or any other nationality, it is murder.

Whether the adult is part of a well-trained, well-funded, well-armed, well-organised army or part of a rabble of thugs and psychopaths scratched up from a country too deprived to have any real military organisation, it is murder.

Why then, if I am not trolling, do I choose to post relating to murder committed by the Israelis, when I have never posted one about murder committed by Palestinians?

Because I feel that the atrocities commited by the Israelis against the Palestinians receive shamefully little press attention compared to those committed by Palestinians against Israelis.

Perhaps it is different in the US, but to give an example from the British press, a Palestinian suicide bombing will typically be reported every night for about a week from the day it was initially reported, when it will be the headlining item in most places.

Today the headlining TV news item on all the channels I saw was that somebody had thrown some harmless purple powder at the Prime Minister and that nobody was distressed or hurt.

This is wrong.

Edit: As a show of good will, I have edited the title of the thread to imply that the events have so far only been alleged. For those joining the thread since then, the title originally lacked the word 'allegedly'.
__________________
"No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

Last edited by John Henry; 05-19-2004 at 11:29 AM..
John Henry is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 04:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
Conspiracy Realist
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Location: The Event Horizon
(* I make every attempt to find sources that are unbiased as possible (which can be hard to do) and generally and hopefully seen as neutral as possible) If your research into them proves otherwise, please let me know so I can hopefully find one with the same data and seen as acceptable. I want to comment that I do with every source someone provides. I check out the site creators, investigate what information on their background is available; and checking their sources as far as the line has record of. If there are any grammatical or spelling errors please excuse- these long post take up time and while I know mistakes can distract the point- its the substance and the questions I pose that hold the most weight to me- Thanks)

Iíll just continue to intersect every time one of these threads pops up with the same info I always post yet seems to go unanswered. There are two elements I find frustrating about this: subject 1) Anytime I hear George W talk about it in any shape or form (for reasons Iíll go into if needed) 2) Obviously politically seasoned people who appear to approach issues with a researched analytical view of critical thinking taking the stands they do. From anyone thatís read my threads Iím totally against what Israel is doing. (Let me rephrase that----itís not Israel; there are a growing number of Israelis that are also against whatís happening. Itís the Likud Party and primarily Zionism that have major issue with. This subject is on the verge of costing me a few friendships; which sucks. Hereís my problem: I know that if I were to walk into a Palestinian neighborhood (which years ago I did without issues-but times have changed) thereís no doubt in my mind theyíd be out to kill me. I also know if the Israeli soldiers knew I was an American and thought I was a supporter of Israel they would act as an ally. That doesnít make it right. Perhaps I attribute it to traveling there so many times that this is more personal to me than other troubled areas.

With absolutely ZERO sarcasm from my perspective; Instead of just posting the info to try and prove something, Iím posting it and asking for someone to explain a perspective that I seem totally oblivious to. These forms of media are a small amount of data I have used to arrive at where Iím at.

1) Pushing the most honest element of righteousness aside; Conquest, the foundation of the Zionist philosophy rests in previous ancient residence as set forth by their divine right. Well then technically they should move aside for any descendent of the Canaanites. Divine right? Thatís too much for me to go into. One of the better sources I found for bibliogical history

http://www.earth-history.com/Earth-01.htm

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf0...2561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf0...256ddb007bb36f!OpenDocument

2) From the historical research Iíve come to accept the Arab aggression didnít occur until immigration caps were initially being intermittently exceeded progressing to straightly being ignored as the Holocaust progressed; influencing Britain to cease in its regulation efforts. Letís look at what scenario the immigrants were coming into. 1922 census was taken in the month of October. It showed a total population of 757,182, of whom 78% were Moslems, 11% were Jews and 9ē6% Christians (of which contain some Arab)





http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/a...c?OpenDocument

My interpretation is the partition far exceeded the land legally bought by the new residents; angering the Arabs. The partition right or wrong is what multiple members voted on so thatís the way things go. Manifest Destiny happened as it did because thatís the way things go. One would think as a world perhaps there has been a progression in social evolution since such times; yeah. By the recognition by a majority of EARTH; Israel is a state that has the right to exist and live in peace. The problem is: dealing with the SIGNIFCANT loss of territory; and abridged territorial coherency the Arabs sustained in their side of the deal; they had to start dealing with the same shit theyíre dealing with today. And that is Israeli leaders and Zionists (Iím careful to realize that itís not correct or fair to just say Israel or Israelis) were going to settle for what they had; what they given (as immigrants) they wanted it all. (WB and GS) Settlers did then; prior to the war; as they continue to do now- illegally assume land that is internationally recognized as belonging to the INDIGENOUS population.

My interpretation of that war; Israel did a very successful war campaign. I donít think anyone can deny that or should. Why was the war started? Arab aggression. Why were the Arabs aggressing? The partition that happened years prior? They ďWanted to throw them into the oceanĒ? Aside from an immigration agreement that was violated because of spiritual beliefs- (that may carry questionable points of validity in and of themselves) I truly donít understand how a person can research the progression: starting with UN addresses made by the Founding Zionist leaders to Oslo and not see what the ďGrand PlanĒ is.

http://www.doublestandards.org/shockwave/barak_eng.swf



Prior to the second uprising; prior to the suicide bombings I wonder if people truly understand what was happening in the OT.

That was yesterday; letís talk about today. It appears to me that anyone that fully supports Israel; sees it being acceptable for illegal settlements to exist. Put daily harassment, unwarranted incarceration, agriculture razing, closing educational institutions, and similar actions aside. Because while it seems to now be effective to label them countermeasures to terrorism; the truth these actions were occurring long before the bombings began. If a small amount of looking over current maps an equation that seems so obvious to me appears to be nonexistent to others. Even more so with Bush now basically saying that the settlements are OK. (not that an assumed US veto will occur with any resolution drawn on Israel- even basic human rights) So here is where I would SINCERELY welcome feedback or some information that I must be missing.

The bottom line to me is this: everyday those settlers continue to annex land in territory they shouldnít even be in. They do this with simple fencing. In other words they are just taking the land bit by bit. If a farmer or landowner resists this appropriation they are a TERRORIST. So as population increases within both cultures with these territories; the degree of point blank approaches at an accelerated rate. The Wall is going to push it even faster. Point blank being the situation with there is zero buffer area between the settlers and Palestinians. I see the land that can still call somewhat theyíre own shrinking and becoming encircled by Israeli control. One might not even call it occupation thanks to George W. They are there to stay. Does anyone truly believe they are going to stop? Can someone explain how this doesnít resemble cultural genocide? Iím confident that the IDF would allow Palestinian residents to peacefully exit the West Bank and go stack on top of their fellow refugees in Jordan. But events and action seem to define there are going to be no other options available. Lastly the part that puzzles me the absolute most is the impression I interpret from people that the Palestinians should take this situation with a smile on their face. Iím trying to truly comprehend on how people are seeing differently on this. With the evitable collision of cultures approaching: Iím curious to those that agree with Israelís actions; what they feel the Palestinians should do. Te me this particular campaign of genocide isnít like what the Jews themselves experienced or even what weíve seen in other parts of the world. This trend is slow, very deliberate, very calculated, and closing in with each day. So we all agree that suicide bombing is a bad thing. Attacking settlers that continue to multiply and expand on Palestinian land is a bad thing, hijacking is a bad thing, and lastly obviously attacking tanks with rocks is a bad thing; so with the wall being built, the settlers getting more support than even now what should the remaining Palestinians in Israel do? What steps does the younger generation need to take for the scenario their future holds?

Israel says it was an accident-- ofcourse thats a paraphrase and I really dont know if MSNBC is biased as I have seen reports that seem to favor each at different times.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5004007/
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Last edited by Sun Tzu; 05-19-2004 at 04:16 PM..
Sun Tzu is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 05:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Note:

I am also annoyed at the title of this thread, considering that no one knows exactly what happened.

It seems that it is designed to troll.
So was "nude pyramids or beheading?" and "why doesn't the president do his job?" - both locked. Personally, I have no problem with pre-emptive locking or editing of titles. I think titles or posts that are obviously trollish should be locked down early, not later, when possible. A thread that starts bad, ends bad.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 06:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
Gentlemen Farmer
 
j8ear's Avatar
 
Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey
I think it a very reasonable assumption that when palestians are killed by IDF that murder be used to describe the action. Just like the re-classification of suicide bomber into homicide bomber. I find nothing trolling about it. That what the IDF does. Has, does and will do. It is one of their 'tactics.' Some call it assisination, or self defense...It's still murder to me.

I also think that posting anything pro Israel or pro Palestine is destined to result in a troll fest.

Heels just seem so dug in on this issue.

Hell, isn't politics just one big troll fest in itself? My way, your way, no way?

-bear
__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.
j8ear is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 07:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
Conspiracy Realist
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Location: The Event Horizon
The point Ive arrived at is trying to find an understanding. I say that because I think Israel should be able to live in peace; if it discontinues its seemingly goal of attempting to drive the Palestinians into Jordan or worse. Its hard for me not feel frustration that President that knows exactly whats going on and supports it. The reasoning is crystal clear to me. My desrie to comprehend other mindsets lies in the direction of my fellow tax payers. I suppose perhaps theres a simple brilliance to overlooking what is happening and promote actions done in retailiation as terrorism. Its just to big of Blinds eye for me to turn.
I wonder if its the fact the Israel is considered a US ally and has a democracy that this has been allowed to progress to the state it has, and in recent events thus ordained by President Bush.

I understand if I were to visit some of the same areas I did years ago; Id probably by killed the Palestinians. Here is the very essence of paradox gone out of control. The fact the they would do that; Im suppose to see them as terrorists; as the enemy? Take on the attitude of supporting my own because its my own? Well I'd like to that in addition to creating a life in the pursuit of liberty and happiness for ourselves; that in the very least America stands up for justice globally. We've stepped in before when a weaker people needed aid against an agressor, and yet. . . most of the people I've personally spoke with dont understand the full implecations of what Bush has done with this situation.

Ift There were absolutely no settlements in the areas that were designated to the Palestinian---the same time they internationally aquired theirs and there were attacks and similiar agression coming from the Palestinians THAT would a completely different scenerio. COMPLETELY. But its not; it never has been.

I just having this thought that at least Native Americans have been allowed to open casinos.
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Last edited by Sun Tzu; 05-20-2004 at 08:21 AM..
Sun Tzu is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 09:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
Junkie
 
almostaugust's Avatar
 
Location: Oz
Interesting post Sun Tzu.
__________________
'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'
almostaugust is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
The point Ive arrived at is trying to find an understanding. I say that because I think Israel should be able to live in peace; if it discontinues its seemingly goal of attempting to drive the Palestinians into Jordan or worse.
South Africa showed the world how a nation full of people that hate each other could reach peace. It seems to me that Israel is just making the problem worse and worse. It's strange to me, how could people who lived through Crystallnacht go through bulldozing hundreds of homes?

Hate will never lead to peace in Israel.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 10:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate
 
Location: Los Angeles
Recently I was able to meet and listen to a guest speaker from South Africa who was in the African National Congress and lived under apartheid in South Africa for years... he was recently speaking with Kofi Annan and is visiting the U.S. to see how racial differences and issues are handled here.

Its amazing to see the progress made in years - in his group of 4, he had 2 white females, 1 Indian female, and himself, a black man. Even 15 years ago, this would never have been true.

But one thing that struck me was this - the reason they had no bloodshed despite having a revolution that ended apartheid was the ability of the people of differences to work together in a moderate way. There were certainly extremists on both sides calling for the establishment of a right-wing dictatorship or a complete wipe out of a certain race.

What the movement did do, however, was kick out those extremists by discrediting them.

IMO thats a prime example of what different people that hate each other can do - by being able to kick out those extremists on both sides and to work together from the moderate people who are willing to talk. Only when the two are willing to see the other side can it end. Or else it only goes in cirlces.

On, and on, and on...
Zeld2.0 is offline  
Old 05-19-2004, 11:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
Insane
 
Behold what it's like to live in Rafah.

http://rafahtoday.org/news/todaymain.htm
hammer4all is offline  
Old 05-20-2004, 09:09 AM   #21 (permalink)
Conspiracy Realist
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Location: The Event Horizon
hammer4all I understand your post, Ive done similiar in the past. They led to some really nasty exchanges that elevated out of control. Due to improved monitoring and better moderation such flames wars donít happen anymore. In fact Iím probably lucky I wasnít banned or even warned for that matter. Aside from that thereís something I learned on my own: there are as many sites out there showing horrible images of the bus bombings and similar. Many that fully agree with Israelís policies will see such images as bad and regrettable, but ultimately the Palestinians own fault. Thus similar to the very situation itself a cycle where it seems the very core of the problem is overlooked.

The following exchange between Sharon and Bush:

Quote:
Letter from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to US President George W. Bush


The Honorable George W. Bush
President of the United States of America
The White House
Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. President,

The vision that you articulated in your 24 June 2002 address constitutes one of the most significant contributions toward ensuring a bright future for the Middle East. Accordingly, the State of Israel has accepted the Roadmap, as adopted by our government. For the first time, a practical and just formula was presented for the achievement of peace, opening a genuine window of opportunity for progress toward a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians, involving two states living side-by-side in peace and security.

This formula sets forth the correct sequence and principles for the attainment of peace. Its full implementation represents the sole means to make genuine progress. As you have stated, a Palestinian state will never be created by terror, and Palestinians must engage in a sustained fight against the terrorists and dismantle their infrastructure. Moreover, there must be serious efforts to institute true reform and real democracy and liberty, including new leaders not compromised by terror. We are committed to this formula as the only avenue through which an agreement can be reached. We believe that this formula is the only viable one.

The Palestinian Authority under its current leadership has taken no action to meet its responsibilities under the Roadmap. Terror has not ceased, reform of the Palestinian security services has not been undertaken, and real institutional reforms have not taken place. The State of Israel continues to pay the heavy cost of constant terror. Israel must preserve its capability to protect itself and deter its enemies, and we thus retain our right to defend ourselves against terrorism and to take actions against terrorist organizations.

Having reached the conclusion that, for the time being, there exists no Palestinian partner with whom to advance peacefully toward a settlement and since the current impasse is unhelpful to the achievement of our shared goals, I have decided to initiate a process of gradual disengagement with the hope of reducing friction between Israelis and Palestinians. The Disengagement Plan is designed to improve security for Israel and stabilize our political and economic situation. It will enable us to deploy our forces more effectively until such time that conditions in the Palestinian Authority allow for the full implementation of the Roadmap to resume.

I attach, for your review, the main principles of the Disengagement Plan. This initiative, which we are not undertaking under the roadmap, represents an independent Israeli plan, yet is not inconsistent with the roadmap. According to this plan, the State of Israel intends to relocate military installations and all Israeli villages and towns in the Gaza Strip, as well as other military installations and a small number of villages in Samaria.

In this context, we also plan to accelerate construction of the Security Fence, whose completion is essential in order to ensure the security of the citizens of Israel. The fence is a security rather than political barrier, temporary rather than permanent, and therefore will not prejudice any final status issues including final borders. The route of the Fence, as approved by our Government’s decisions, will take into account, consistent with security needs, its impact on Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities.

Upon my return from Washington, I expect to submit this Plan for the approval of the Cabinet and the Knesset, and I firmly believe that it will win such approval.

The Disengagement Plan will create a new and better reality for the State of Israel, enhance its security and economy, and strengthen the fortitude of its people. In this context, I believe it is important to bring new opportunities to the Negev and the Galilee. Additionally, the Plan will entail a series of measures with the inherent potential to improve the lot of the Palestinian Authority, providing that it demonstrates the wisdom to take advantage of this opportunity. The execution of the Disengagement Plan holds the prospect of stimulating positive changes within the Palestinian Authority that might create the necessary conditions for the resumption of direct negotiations.

We view the achievement of a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians as our central focus and are committed to realizing this objective. Progress toward this goal must be anchored exclusively in the Roadmap and we will oppose any other plan.

In this regard, we are fully aware of the responsibilities facing the State of Israel. These include limitations on the growth of settlements; removal of unauthorized outposts; and steps to increase, to the extent permitted by security needs, freedom of movement for Palestinians not engaged in terrorism. Under separate cover we are sending to you a full description of the steps the State of Israel is taking to meet all its responsibilities.

The government of Israel supports the United States efforts to reform the Palestinian security services to meet their roadmap obligations to fight terror. Israel also supports the American's efforts, working with the International Community, to promote the reform process, build institutions and improve the economy of the Palestinian Authority and to enhance the welfare of its people, in the hope that a new Palestinian leadership will prove able to fulfill its obligations under the roadmap.

I want to again express my appreciation for your courageous leadership in the war against global terror, your important initiative to revitalize the Middle East as a more fitting home for its people and, primarily, your personal friendship and profound support for the State of Israel.

Sincerely,

Ariel Sharon



Letter from US President George W. Bush to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

His Excellency
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel

Dear Mr. Prime Minister,

Thank you for your letter setting out your disengagement plan.

The United States remains hopeful and determined to find a way forward toward a resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. I remain committed to my June 24, 2002 vision of two states living side by side in peace and security as the key to peace, and to the roadmap as the route to get there.

We welcome the disengagement plan you have prepared, under which Israel would withdraw certain military installations and all settlements from Gaza, and withdraw certain military installations and settlements in the West Bank. These steps described in the plan will mark real progress toward realizing my June 24, 2002 vision, and make a real contribution towards peace. We also understand that, in this context, Israel believes it is important to bring new opportunities to the Negev and the Galilee. We are hopeful that steps pursuant to this plan, consistent with my vision, will remind all states and parties of their own obligations under the roadmap.

The United States appreciates the risks such an undertaking represents. I therefore want to reassure you on several points.

First, the United States remains committed to my vision and to its implementation as described in the roadmap. The United States will do its utmost to prevent any attempt by anyone to impose any other plan. Under the roadmap, Palestinians must undertake an immediate cessation of armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere, and all official Palestinian institutions must end incitement against Israel. The Palestinian leadership must act decisively against terror, including sustained, targeted, and effective operations to stop terrorism and dismantle terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. Palestinians must undertake a comprehensive and fundamental political reform that includes a strong parliamentary democracy and an empowered prime minister.

Second, there will be no security for Israelis or Palestinians until they and all states, in the region and beyond, join together to fight terrorism and dismantle terrorist organizations. The United States reiterates its steadfast commitment to Israel's security, including secure, defensible borders, and to preserve and strengthen Israel's capability to deter and defend itself, by itself, against any threat or possible combination of threats.

Third, Israel will retain its right to defend itself against terrorism, including to take actions against terrorist organizations. The United States will lead efforts, working together with Jordan, Egypt, and others in the international community, to build the capacity and will of Palestinian institutions to fight terrorism, dismantle terrorist organizations, and prevent the areas from which Israel has withdrawn from posing a threat that would have to be addressed by any other means. The United States understands that after Israel withdraws from Gaza and/or parts of the West Bank, and pending agreements on other arrangements, existing arrangements regarding control of airspace, territorial waters, and land passages of the West Bank and Gaza will continue.

The United States is strongly committed to Israel's security and well-being as a Jewish state. It seems clear that an agreed, just, fair and realistic framework for a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue as part of any final status agreement will need to be found through the establishment of a Palestinian state, and the settling of Palestinian refugees there, rather than in Israel.

As part of a final peace settlement, Israel must have secure and recognized borders, which should emerge from negotiations between the parties in accordance with UNSC Resolutions 242 and 338. In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli populations centers, it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949, and all previous efforts to negotiate a two-state solution have reached the same conclusion. It is realistic to expect that any final status agreement will only be achieved on the basis of mutually agreed changes that reflect these realities.

I know that, as you state in your letter, you are aware that certain responsibilities face the State of Israel. Among these, your government has stated that the barrier being erected by Israel should be a security rather than political barrier, should be temporary rather than permanent, and therefore not prejudice any final status issues including final borders, and its route should take into account, consistent with security needs, its impact on Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities.

As you know, the United States supports the establishment of a Palestinian state that is viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent, so that the Palestinian people can build their own future in accordance with my vision set forth in June 2002 and with the path set forth in the roadmap. The United States will join with others in the international community to foster the development of democratic political institutions and new leadership committed to those institutions, the reconstruction of civic institutions, the growth of a free and prosperous economy, and the building of capable security institutions dedicated to maintaining law and order and dismantling terrorist organizations.

A peace settlement negotiated between Israelis and Palestinians would be a great boon not only to those peoples but to the peoples of the entire region. Accordingly, the United States believes that all states in the region have special responsibilities: to support the building of the institutions of a Palestinian state; to fight terrorism, and cut off all forms of assistance to individuals and groups engaged in terrorism; and to begin now to move toward more normal relations with the State of Israel. These actions would be true contributions to building peace in the region.

Mr. Prime Minister, you have described a bold and historic initiative that can make an important contribution to peace. I commend your efforts and your courageous decision which I support. As a close friend and ally, the United States intends to work closely with you to help make it a success.

Sincerely,

George W. Bush
link to the above http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Pea...4-Apr-2004.htm

This was from April 2004. Does anyone have any commentary on this? I wonder if the president truly see's pulling all settlements out of Gaza, but 2 as being generous? I'd really like to go through it line for line to explain the language Im reading, how people hear whats being said reflects a great deal to situation; how the rest of the world appears to view the US and the ally we protect the most.

Something interesting would be to hear the view of one of the settlers who refuse to move and are fighting not to have any settlements uprooted. Because they're actions in their entirety are protected by the IDF in the finest American weapondry money can buy- their views matter the most. Investigate how the feel about the Palestinians and the right to have ANY land or what the ultimate outcome should be; and you sum up the true nature of what part of Israels policy and future intentions are.

Of course my statements are of my own opinion.
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Last edited by Sun Tzu; 05-20-2004 at 02:55 PM..
Sun Tzu is offline  
 

Tags
children, including, israelis, murder, protesters, ten

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:52 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360