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Old 07-01-2004, 08:10 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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the trial of saddam hussein

it appears that the lawyers for saddam hussein are planning on going after the jurisdiction of the court that is trying him--the argument will be that the trial cannot happen because the court cannot claim jurisdiction. while this move is not surprising--milosevic used it in the hague--it seems that the refusal to try hussein at the world court level could create a problem.

the best article i have found on this is in french--dont know if folk can read it, but i'll post the link anyway:

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=220403

it is mostly an interview with a member of hussein's legal team.

now i am no fan of saddam hussein, at any level.
however i opposed the war and still oppose it. (full disclosure)

but i am trying to think about the question of legitimacy for the present regime in iraq---putting aside for the moment all qualifications concerning it---and wondering why they are moving so quickly to set this process in motion.

what happens if the jurisidiction argument holds up? or, alternatively, what happens if the argument gets overridden in such a way as to reduce the proceedings to an obvious show trial, like the bukharin trial was. how would this help the situation of gaining legitimacy for the present regime? why is hussein not being tried at the level of the hague?

i expect that there will be folk who will say just fry the bastard, but that would seem to be a way of bypassing the matter at hand.
what do you think?
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Old 07-01-2004, 10:45 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 07-01-2004, 10:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Nicely put seretogis. They can claim that the court has no juristiction... but Saddam will still die.
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Old 07-01-2004, 11:08 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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so what is at stake in the trial? a show trial to enable an execution? then why bother? and how will that function to legitimate the existing regime? why would it not show that the new regime has no respect for law, is arbitrary--why would it not reinforce the suspicions already floating around the world that the new regime is a puppet of the americans, and even follows the bush administration in its contempt for international law/legal institutions?

like it or not, folks, you are not dealing with individuals in some western film--you are dealing with matters of state, matters of law---there **are** rules, particularly when it comes not to committing a "crime" but determining guilt or innocence.
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Old 07-01-2004, 11:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I am perfectly au fait with Saddam being tried in Iraq for crimes agains the Iraqi people. What could be more appropriate?
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Old 07-01-2004, 11:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: the trial of saddam hussein

Quote:
Originally posted by roachboy
but i am trying to think about the question of legitimacy for the present regime in iraq---putting aside for the moment all qualifications concerning it---and wondering why they are moving so quickly to set this process in motion.
It will be interesting to see if trial is even finished before the elections, BBC news report stated that the trial won't start before the beginning of 2005 and quite possibly will last months or even years.
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Old 07-01-2004, 12:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Saddam is claiming that he's still President of Iraq, that the war was illegal, that the new government is illegal, and that (as a result) the court and the trial proceedings are illegal. He also claims that his invasion of Kuwait wasn't a crime, because Kuwait was Iraqi territory.

In the end it really doesn't matter if he recognizes the court or not, nor if his lawyers claim it has no juristiction. He will most likely be convicted and put in jail or be executed, whether he agrees with it or not. I don't think there are many instances where the "I don't agree with this court" routine really worked. It isn't working for Milosovich at the Hague, and it won't work for Saddam.

I can't imagine his judges and the Iraqi governing council saying "allright, we'll stop this trial and will allow you to be President again".
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Old 07-01-2004, 12:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I prefer upholding the evidently "questionable" legitimacy of Iraq as reconstituted today rather than upholding the questionable jurisdiction of the World Court.
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Old 07-01-2004, 01:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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but wouldn't the trial be less suspect on jurisidiction grounds if it happened in a forum that would pre-empt the argument a priori?
am i right in assuming that suspicion of the world court or the international war crimes tribunal sits on a notion of national sovereignty that is already irrelevant in terms of economic activity, decision-making etc. in many parts of the world?
is this opposition more than a defense of the basis for nationalist-oriented domestic politics?
a serious question--i would really like someone to lay out the basis.

and how did people get to be ok with show trials? i remember that ciritics of the soviet union would exercize themselves at some length about the bukharin trial or is it that show trials are only a problem if they happen in contexts that you dont approve of?

i understand that there is an argument about killing off the deposed monarch as a symbolic act, and that the legitimacy of the subsequent regime starts on a different basis after that act--but within this logic, why bother with the illusion of due process?
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Old 07-01-2004, 01:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Given that the UN has passed a resolution recognizing the legitimacy of the newly sovereign Iraq, the legal procedings should be considered legitimate.

It is a mistake to assume that the trial will just be for show. The Iraqis have plenty of concrete evidence to support the prosecution of Saddam. If anything, such a trial will be less of a "show" than if it were conducted in the (cringe) World Court.
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Old 07-01-2004, 01:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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why not answer the other questions too?

geez, why is it so hard to get a conversation down to basic things in here?
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Old 07-01-2004, 02:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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You asked some questions that I have no desire to address. For instance: how did people get to be okay with show trials? There is an assumption that people are okay with them - I'm not. So I will leave it to others to explain why they are.
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Old 07-01-2004, 02:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Off-topic: I find it humorous that many who feel most threatened by the World Court's threat to American sovereignty are frequently enthusiastic about violating the sovereignty of other nations.
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Old 07-01-2004, 02:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Shoot him out into deep, deep space on a rocketship, with the tank on 3/4 empty.

(Oh and they've spent millions of $$ on things smarter than this before? lol)
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Old 07-01-2004, 02:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Old 07-01-2004, 04:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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cthulu23, not one person in this thread has said a thing about the World Court's threat to American Sovereignty.
Off-topic...indeed.
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Old 07-01-2004, 04:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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cthulu23, not one person in this thread has said a thing about the World Court's threat to American Sovereignty.
Off-topic...indeed.
That's why I labeled it as such.

The World Court's threat to american sovereignty seems to be the most common complaint against it, so I inferred that those speaking against it here felt the same.

Last edited by cthulu23; 07-01-2004 at 04:33 PM..
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Old 07-01-2004, 06:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I was watching CNN today and they said that something like 54% of iraqi's want saddam to be executed and 43% want him to be set free.

That stat scares me.
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Old 07-01-2004, 07:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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btw, what law is hussein being tried under if there is no iraqi constitution yet?
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Old 07-01-2004, 07:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rekna
I was watching CNN today and they said that something like 54% of iraqi's want saddam to be executed and 43% want him to be set free.

That stat scares me.
I don't think that informal opinion polls prove anything. Without a nationwide survey hitting all groups, you're getting too little of the picture. If all of Iraq truly feels that way, it is indeed frightening. Additionally, if he was set free, I would bet that he wouldn't survive more than a few minutes.
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Old 07-01-2004, 08:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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could it be that people in iraq are really really pissed off about bushwar? that they do not quite understand why the trial would be going on when there is no electricity? do you think that might explain the poll results?
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Old 07-01-2004, 10:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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As usual, the most interesting reactions are from the Arab world, where they're doing their best (but failing) not to declare Saddam a hero. They focus on how Saddam looks old and wise, as opposed to the young judge. They focus on his arguments about the court being illegal, as opposed to focusing on the actual case itself.

It's all very pro-Saddam, if you look through the supposed impartiality. Hell, I doubt CNN would show a Western scientist declaring Saddam a hero, and other Arab leaders as evil followers of the US - but we see Al-Jazeera showing one from Egypt with that exact message.

I just hope the evidence against Saddam will be shown in full; and I would prefer it to be as graphic and gruesome as possible. Of course, by doing that, I hope the love for Saddam will be replaced by a feeling that he was indeed a very bad man. But somehow I doubt the Arab media will be showing that... Showing poor innocent Arab victims of western and Jewish agression is much more interesting and newsworthy than an "Islamic" murderer.
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Old 07-01-2004, 11:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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think of it this way

tried i a world court: no execution.

Personally, i think he'll be found guilty anywhere, but i don't think he'll be executed. that's just me, though. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, i'm just saying it won't happen.

The scary part of that is that if he rots in jail, his name and followers will grow and he'll become a "mandela" or some such...

that scares me....
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Old 07-02-2004, 12:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Today a member of the new Iraqi "government" stated that the trial will be televised for all to see.

I'm curious as to how they're going to do this. I mean, the last thing the US wants is Saddam up on a soapbox going into detail on his history with the States. Do you think a man in his position would pull any punches? I figure if he's going down, he's going to take as many people (states) with him.

Would there be serious repercussions in the States if the people heard Saddam go over his dealings with the West?


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Old 07-02-2004, 01:37 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLM3
Today a member of the new Iraqi "government" stated that the trial will be televised for all to see.

I'm curious as to how they're going to do this. I mean, the last thing the US wants is Saddam up on a soapbox going into detail on his history with the States. Do you think a man in his position would pull any punches? I figure if he's going down, he's going to take as many people (states) with him.

Would there be serious repercussions in the States if the people heard Saddam go over his dealings with the West?
Why would there be repercussions? We already *know* that the US, along with most of the world, supported Saddam during his war with Iran. Is that such a dangerous subject that it can't be shown on the telly?
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Old 07-02-2004, 01:47 AM   #26 (permalink)
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roachboy i have some sympathy with your views

but i don't think conducting the trial in the west would go down at all well with other arab nations eh? it's the Iraqis who need to be seen to be waving the sword of justice

personally i think they should torture him live on TV and we could all laugh (and no i didn't agree with the war either)
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Old 07-02-2004, 03:35 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The scary part of that is that if he rots in jail, his name and followers will grow and he'll become a "mandela" or some such...
To be honest, I think that will happen even if he is executed. In a fact, I believe that if he receives death sentence, his martyrdom will be even greater.

I think that when (or should I say if - after all he is innocent until proven guilty) he is verdicted, he should not be executed.

And I sincerely hope that all who supported him during the cold war (US, European countries) will be uncovered, though I believe that all the meddlings of the west in Iraq will be neatly left hidden.
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:31 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Seeing as how Saddam got into power by military coup along with other Bathists(1968 or so) I don't see how he can claim this court is illegitimate compared to those while he was in power. Both derived power through military force.

I think the Iraqi people will find him guilty as the evidence with even a cursory glance would be enough to convict alone. I hope he is executed as it will be a sign to the rest of the Middle East that no matter how much power you have now over your masses things can and will change. Leaving him rot in jail will only inspire Bathists to try and rescue or revenge him. The quicker he is tried and executed the faster the country will be able to move out from under his shadow without fear of him rising again.

I also hope those that supported him like China, Russia France etc get named along with the kickack money the UN was paid. THis is why I think the UN is worried about an open Iraqi trial rather than one they can control. The oil for food scandal can be covered up by them now but Saddam knows who he made deals with and the documents are probably still there.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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This strikes me as perhaps the biggest non-event of 2004.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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It's all very pro-Saddam, if you look through the supposed impartiality. Hell, I doubt CNN would show a Western scientist declaring Saddam a hero, and other Arab leaders as evil followers of the US - but we see Al-Jazeera showing one from Egypt with that exact message.

I just hope the evidence against Saddam will be shown in full; and I would prefer it to be as graphic and gruesome as possible. Of course, by doing that, I hope the love for Saddam will be replaced by a feeling that he was indeed a very bad man. But somehow I doubt the Arab media will be showing that... Showing poor innocent Arab victims of western and Jewish agression is much more interesting and newsworthy than an "Islamic" murderer.
Exactly.

This thing is looking like its going to backfire against those in favor of a reformed Iraq. Everyone is all caught up in 'how well he looks' and how 'fierce and combative' he still is. Its been said over and over how every Iraqi has a story of how Saddam brutalized them or killed someone in their family, dumping them into the river or into a mass grave. They need to have a fast, thorough trial, convict him based on the historical facts, execute him by lethal injection, and get on with the rebuilding of their country.
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Old 07-02-2004, 11:08 AM   #31 (permalink)
 
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personally, i suspect that hussein will meet with some "accident" while awaiting the trial. i cant see how the court could get out of the jurisdication argument---i cant see how the americans would want to have the trial itself go on--particularly given that when iraq filed a reponse to the un before bushwar about the wmd questions, they dealt with procurement, and that in itself made the us nervous enough to go to great lengths to edit/limit the information in the report. i could see the whole thing turning into a fiasco.

it looks like a no win situation for the bush squad and their iraqi quislings...the charade of legitimacy is so fragile....right now, hussein would be tried under american law as i understand it, which is a funny kinda way to demonstrate the sovereignty of iraq....

i am not getting a sense as reactions pile up from various sources that there is whole of directly pro-hussein responses---he might be turning into a symbol of a kind of fuck you geroge bush response, which would be at once not surprising and depressing. but this sort of thing has happened before.

is the suspicion of international courts etc. really just a function of this particular situation--i dont believe it----still interested to see
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Old 07-02-2004, 11:27 AM   #32 (permalink)
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for whatever reason, this trial seems like it's being pushed through too quickly. iraq doesn't have a constitution or an official court system so i don't see how this could ever be an iraq controlled trial.
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Old 07-02-2004, 12:05 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Just a curious hypothetical.....

What if for some reason the Iraqi court finds Saddam innocent and sets him free?
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Old 07-02-2004, 12:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
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These are the preliminary hearings. The actual trial will take place somewhere next year.

By the way, given the history of Saddam's rise to power (military coup), I really don't think he's in a position to claim the new government and judicial system are illegal.

And frankly, I don't think the UN should be stepping in (as some of their officials seem to be suggesting) to make sure he gets a fair trial. How do you give a man like Saddam a fair trial? It's as if he could possibly be innocent or something...

But from what I hear/read, the evidence against Saddam is so overwhelming that only a confession signed in his own blood could be better.

pan6467: he'll be dead in a matter of days.
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Old 07-02-2004, 12:17 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by roachboy
personally, i suspect that hussein will meet with some "accident" while awaiting the trial. i cant see how the court could get out of the jurisdication argument---i cant see how the americans would want to have the trial itself go on--particularly given that when iraq filed a reponse to the un before bushwar about the wmd questions, they dealt with procurement, and that in itself made the us nervous enough to go to great lengths to edit/limit the information in the report. i could see the whole thing turning into a fiasco.

it looks like a no win situation for the bush squad and their iraqi quislings...the charade of legitimacy is so fragile....right now, hussein would be tried under american law as i understand it, which is a funny kinda way to demonstrate the sovereignty of iraq....

i am not getting a sense as reactions pile up from various sources that there is whole of directly pro-hussein responses---he might be turning into a symbol of a kind of fuck you geroge bush response, which would be at once not surprising and depressing. but this sort of thing has happened before.

is the suspicion of international courts etc. really just a function of this particular situation--i dont believe it----still interested to see


A bit heavy on the conspiracy theories, RB.

My prediction: Saddam will be tried next year, found guilty based upon the overwhelming body count and executed. I will break out a bottle of nice vintage champagne and drink a toast to him burning in hell.
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Old 07-02-2004, 03:46 PM   #36 (permalink)
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By the way, given the history of Saddam's rise to power (military coup), I really don't think he's in a position to claim the new government and judicial system are illegal.
I agree that all dictatorships are illegal regimes (or depending how you define "illegal"), but earlier in this thread an argument where UN recognition was used as a proof of legitimity of the new Iraqi government, so if one sees it like that, Saddam regime was also legal (correct me if I'm wrong). Also during the Iran-Iraq war USA condemned Iran for an attempt of eliminating "the legitimate government of neighboring Iraq" - at least if the circulated draft press release was published - National Security Archive isn't very specific about this. So in this sense Saddam regime was "legitimate".
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Old 07-02-2004, 03:50 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Ultimately, the only thing that makes a government "legitimate" is can it take and hold power.

If the American revolutionaries had lost, they would have been hung as traitors to the crown.

If Germany had won WW2, the Vichi (sp?) govt. would have been the "legitimate" govt. of France.

And so the current government of Iraq will be "legitimate" so long as they can hold on to power, both internally and externally.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:26 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I can't imagine his judges and the Iraqi governing council saying "allright, we'll stop this trial and will allow you to be President again".

I don't post here much, I don't really have a political mind but I enjoy reading it.

But, I had to chime in here, hypothetically speaking, if that did happen, and it's not impossible, as wrong as that sounds. He woulden't make it out the front door of the building before being shot and killed. No one in their right mind would allow this man to walk free on this earth again. He's either in jail, or dead. There is no other option for him. Even if he was set free.
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Old 07-02-2004, 07:33 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Ultimately, the only thing that makes a government "legitimate" is can it take and hold power.

If the American revolutionaries had lost, they would have been hung as traitors to the crown.

If Germany had won WW2, the Vichi (sp?) govt. would have been the "legitimate" govt. of France.

And so the current government of Iraq will be "legitimate" so long as they can hold on to power, both internally and externally.

Was the Taliban legitimate?


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Old 07-02-2004, 07:57 PM   #40 (permalink)
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For a new country (?) to have such a high profile court case so early after it's supposed sovereignty is a lose-lose situation from the get go.

If the Iraqi's choose to execute Hussein, they will have effectively proven that the American occupation was a rouse since nothing would change perception wise through the mid east. Executions happen all the time.

The other way, if they Americanize the trial and give Saddam a life sentence without parole it will appear as if the Iraqi's have sold out. Perception is huge. Even for the Iraqi's.
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