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Old 07-21-2004, 08:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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need opinions here. wtc incident

Ok, so, i'm finally in manhattan and i make the trek to the WTC site to pay respects, etc, take pictures, and just see for myself..

I arrive, beautful sunny day, walk around the church across the street, walk over to the actual site, see the last steel cross, the mourning building (the one draped in black), etc...

Then, i'm walking down the steps to get closer to the excavation site and i hear this lady shouting at the top of her lungs, "BUSH IS A TERRORIST, BUSH MUST BE STOPPED. HE AND GUILLIANI HAVE ALLOWED THIS ATTACK ON AMERICA!!" and several things along these lines at the entrance, 20 ft away really (there was a sign saying no material within 20 ft of the entrance), and she kept screaming and they wer passing out flyers, etc, along with a big, "HELP THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS OF 9-11, STOP THE COVER-UP" sign.

Now...i'm thinking...Ok, i dislike bush...seriously dislike. A couple days after 9/11, i was talking with people about how it could easily be planned attack, etc, kind of like how pearl harbor was but not really..i know the dispute over pearl harbor still goes on, but it's along those lines...so i mean, i should be sympathetic to this group...

However...
I have to admit, i was pretty disgusted. I really didn't care what they were saying one way or another. Seriously, i probably agreed with a good bit of what she was saying, but i honestly think the venue for it was atrocious. Seriously, people go to that site to take it in, pay their last respects, just look, morbid curiosity, whatever. It's not exactly a space where you want people spouting politics. Honestly, I was kind of offended by the whole ordeal. Again, not bc i disagree with anything they were saying, but ith where. I think that area should be partisan free. Honestly, I don't get offended by anything, but for some reason, just having people who were probably on my side of the political spectrum turning a monument like that into an anti-republican rally just made me kinda sad.

Any thoughts? sorry for venting there, just had to get it off my chest.
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Old 07-21-2004, 09:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hindsight is always 20/20.

We could have done this, we could have done that. Well, it happened and there isn't much we can do except try to prevent it from happening again.

People must think being the President of the United States is easy, that you can easily stop something with just a thought or something.

Or maybe they're conspiracy theorists that have zero respect for those who lost their lives, and decide to use those deaths as a catapult for their bullshit message.
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Old 07-21-2004, 09:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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There are plenty of nuts in NYC. It's a fun place. Her venue draws attention to her cause. I don't think she's being disrespectful towards the victims.
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Old 07-21-2004, 10:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think there are better ways of spending one's creativity and energy to further a cause than standing on the site of the atrocity and screaming things at people.
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Old 07-21-2004, 10:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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She IS being disrespectful by her actions. Different place I could care less but I know I dont want nutjobs screaming crap over such a sacred place
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Old 07-22-2004, 12:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Sacred place? Eh, i wouldn't go that far, but it is disrespectful.

But really, does it matter? If she looks like a loon an idiot, then she is. if she ain't, she ain't.
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigGov
Hindsight is always 20/20.



Or maybe they're conspiracy theorists that have zero respect for those who lost their lives, and decide to use those deaths as a catapult for their bullshit message.
There is no reason to allow the government's (our paid public servants right?!?!) actions to go unchecked in memorial for the dead.
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Highly, highly, highly inappropriate.
The thing is, and she is probably too much of a zealot to understand this, but she is alienating a large segment of the population that may very well support her views and idealogy, but are turned off by her actions.
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm a fairly liberal democrat and that irritaes me. I fear that I would have felt slapping her was my civic duty. However, she does have the right to free speech.
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I don't really have a problem with it. It's her view and she's free to speak it just about anywhere she likes so long as other issues don't arise (becoming a public nuisance/disturbing the peace, causing damage, inciting riot, etc).
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polyphobic
However, she does have the right to free speech.
Exactly, that seems to be the new American thing, free speech as long as you watch what you say. She has the right to voice her opinion and you have the right to disagree with her opinion.

Personally I see nothing wrong with her voicing her opinion at the WTC site or elsewhere.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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i am really ambivalent about the making "sacred" of the wtc site.

i have been to the city many many times since 9/11/2001 and have not been to look at the place.

for me, looking at the manhattan skyline while approaching the city, particularly the first couple times after 9/11, was enough.

i am not sure what function is served by turning the wtc site itself into a tourist attraction, complete with merch.
i could maybe see someone writing an article about the place, had they hung around since 9/11, seeing in the shifting patterns of activity/usage a kind of grassroots-level fight over the meaning of the space.
but that assumes that the making over into a tourist destination itself is not some way of cheapening and commercializing the whole thing---collective grief as a commodity you can buy---a space for fetishizing shock--a kind of fucked-up voyeurism disguised as respect....i dont get it.

maybe someone could explain it to me?
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I think it's in bad taste, but that's about it.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:14 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Free speech does not equal yelling in my fucking ear as i'm walking by. If you do that, you will get slapped. I don't understand this perceived attack on free speech. No legal authority stopped her from doing that, but that doesn't mean i have to be receptive to that hysterical bitch. Seriously, i would have definitely told her to fuck off and gave her the finger at least.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
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We're quite lucky to have freedom of speech, but it's unfortunate that some people use that right in a way that is not only in bad taste, but in a way that makes people unlikely to take their message seriously.

We also have the freedom to be rude, stupid, and offensive, for what it's worth.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:28 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I agree, you can say whatever you want. But it doesnt mean other people have to be respectful when you're being stupid with it. People are allowed to say what they want about other people's girlfriends/mothers/etc, but freedom of speech wont prevent them from getting their ass kicked or somehow give them repreive.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:33 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Assault laws are supposed to keep them from getting their ass kicked. Using free speech goes both ways. Said person makes outrageous comments and it is your right to respond to her verbally. As long as you are not being abussive.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Like I said free spech a long as you watch what you say. What a load of shit.

Quote:
Originally posted by matthew330
Free speech does not equal yelling in my fucking ear as i'm walking by. If you do that, you will get slapped.
And say hello to Mr. assault charge if you slap them. That makes a whole lot of sense. I guess the days of being able to say what you want are over, you have to tow the party line.

I don't care, I'm glad she's doing what she is doing, she is doing something she believes is right. I notice most peple here think she is a nut job, but what proof is there to back this up, not a damn thing.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:44 AM   #19 (permalink)
* * *
 
I would approach this by trying to understand why this person is so upset. There is a reason that the person is there... she feels very strongly that a major injustice has taken place and is taking place. The typical response I'm seeing in this thread is that this woman way out of line, which I'm not inclined to agree with. I am inclined to say, however, that she is being ineffective and possibly even do more damage than good.

I find it unlikely that the motivation of this person is simply blind partisan politics. She probably has a deep emotional attachment to the event, and in doing some research has felt that our government has seriously let us down. Either that, or she's uneducated and really hurting her cause. I find that getting offended at someone like her does no good. I don't get offended at those people who tell everyone that they're going to hell, stand outside of Planned Parenthood calling those who work there murderers, and other protests with things I really disagree with. I just try to understand it, and leave it at that. As long as my personal civil rights aren't being violated, then I'm ok.
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:04 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by silent_jay
Like I said free spech a long as you watch what you say. What a load of shit.



And say hello to Mr. assault charge if you slap them. That makes a whole lot of sense. I guess the days of being able to say what you want are over, you have to tow the party line.

I don't care, I'm glad she's doing what she is doing, she is doing something she believes is right. I notice most peple here think she is a nut job, but what proof is there to back this up, not a damn thing.
Attn: Matthew330
Seriously I challenge you to go to NYC and visit a corner where the Black Israelites are gathered speaking and shouting and SLAP one of them. What about these people on public transportation who feel the need to preach the word of God?
Free speech is free speech.

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Old 07-22-2004, 11:51 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by silent_jay
I don't care, I'm glad she's doing what she is doing, she is doing something she believes is right. I notice most peple here think she is a nut job, but what proof is there to back this up, not a damn thing.
this is exactly what I was thinking, too.

for all one knows, the lady could be related to a direct victim of the incident. she could be a survivor--or anything.

we don't know. but the idea that certain people, with no direct claim to harm, have more claim to the effects of the incident than those directly invovled has always and continues to make me upset.
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Old 07-22-2004, 01:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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freedom of speech---such as it is in the states---is only obvious and necessary when the speech involved is in some way offensive.

to someone.
for some reason, ridiculous or not.

god knows there are alot of people who are upset for any number of reasons about 911 and bush's absurd handling of the post-911 situation, from families of victims to people politically opposed to what has transpired.

but i dont think the question here is really about the content of the woman's speech.

the problem with this woman seems to lie in the volume of her speech----so i dont see why this is even worth a debate---unless an similar complaint would be lodged if someone was yelling in a subway about needing money for tinfoil so he can make a final repair on his spaceship and go back to his distant planet of origin. in which case, the problem is "noise abatement" and not the content of the speech.

what this seems to come down to is some snarkiness generated by a sense of personal space having been violated----in which case i cant say much beyond get over it.
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Old 07-22-2004, 02:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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wow, i didnt' expect this much of a response.

Anyway, i'm not sure if i was clear, but essentially, I'm not opposed to what she was saying, but the venue was in 'bad taste' imho. She really was alienating the crowd who probably agreed with her the most.

I really believe she has the right to say whatever/however she wants to say, no problem at all, but the venue just seems a bit disrespectful, not to any political party or whatnot, but to people who just came to view the site.

I obviously got over it, but i was just stating my opinion at her choice of venue.
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Old 07-22-2004, 02:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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As another post mentioned, there are plenty of nuts in NY. I think that a lack of taste or decorum is probably the least of the problems for this possible schizophrenic. It's probably not fair to associate either party with the politics of the insane.
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Old 07-22-2004, 03:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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nevermind

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Old 07-22-2004, 06:58 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Thankfully, people in the US have the freedom to make complete asses of themselves -- thereby driving people to the "other side."
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Old 07-23-2004, 05:45 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cthulu23
... I think that a lack of taste or decorum is probably the least of the problems for this possible schizophrenic.
I'm curious as to where you earned your psychiatry degree, at least I hope you have one. I mean you diagnosed a woman as a "possible schizophrenic" simply by reading this thread, that's rather impressive.

Quote:
Originally posted by cthulu23
It's probably not fair to associate either party with the politics of the insane.
Wow, now she's insane, you must be good. Do you have any proof to back this up or is this just what you think? Those are some serious allegations to make against someone. My own opinion you have no idea if she's crazy or not, but you think you do.
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure "possible schizophrenic" is not currently listed in the DSM-IIIR.

""BUSH IS A TERRORIST, BUSH MUST BE STOPPED. HE AND GUILLIANI HAVE ALLOWED THIS ATTACK ON AMERICA!!" screaming this period is irrational behavior. Screaming this solo at the site of the world trade centers is enough to make a reasonable assumption that "she ain't all there."
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Old 07-23-2004, 07:48 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by matthew330
""BUSH IS A TERRORIST, BUSH MUST BE STOPPED. HE AND GUILLIANI HAVE ALLOWED THIS ATTACK ON AMERICA!!" screaming this period is irrational behavior.
Irrational how? No one here knows anything about this woman yet everyone assumes she's crazy. Why not assume she's normal? It still doesn't prove she is "insane", or a "possible schizophrenic", or a "nut job".

Quote:
Originally posted by matthew330
Screaming this solo at the site of the world trade centers is enough to make a reasonable assumption that "she ain't all there."
Quote:
Originally posted by Paq
and she kept screaming and they wer passing out flyers, etc, along with a big, "HELP THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS OF 9-11, STOP THE COVER-UP" sign.
Doesn't look like she was doing this solo. "they were passing out flyers, etc".

What is the big deal about the venue for this demonstration? Like someone else posted before
Quote:
Originally posted by smooth

for all one knows, the lady could be related to a direct victim of the incident. she could be a survivor--or anything.

we don't know. but the idea that certain people, with no direct claim to harm, have more claim to the effects of the incident than those directly invovled has always and continues to make me upset.
But I guess the "possible schizophrenic" title fits better, because after all free speech ends once 9\11, or the WTC, becomes the topic.


Quote:
Originally posted by matthew330
I'm pretty sure "possible schizophrenic" is not currently listed in the DSM-IIIR.
Is it not a big assumption to make about someone simply by reading a thread? I mean I could say anyone here is a "possible schizophrenic", because apparantley I've read enough things posted by them to make this assumption. If that doesn't count what about this:
Quote:
Originally posted by cthulu23
......the politics of the insane.
is calling someone "insane" after reading a post normal?
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Old 07-23-2004, 08:55 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Because a sane person with an agenda would realize that that sort of behavior is convincing noone, and as paq said - alienating everyone (not too mention annoying the shit out of them).

Also as Paq said, that area should be partisan free. I don't give a shit if she was a survivor or had a relative killed. Not every survivor or relative of someone who was killed believes her politics, but they have a right to go there and mourn without the bitch shouting in their ear.

If i saw anyone doing this i would think "crazy bitch", so i can read about someone doing it and think the same thing.

Her irrational and arguably unjustifiable hatred for the President, has caused her to leave reason behind and stand at a mourning site "yelling at the top of her lungs" for what amounts to absolutely no reason, because "that sort of behavior is convincing noone, and as paq said - alienating everyone". so again, it's safe to assume she "ain't all there", and "possible schizophrenic" though probably unlikely, isn't out of the question. You see types of behavior comparable to this among schizophrenics.
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Old 07-23-2004, 08:58 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
Highly, highly, highly inappropriate.
The thing is, and she is probably too much of a zealot to understand this, but she is alienating a large segment of the population that may very well support her views and idealogy, but are turned off by her actions.
I think the wonderful thing about American and NY is that she can go there and do this. That said, Bill nailed it by pointing out that her screaming (not her message) is probably alienating potential converts. I've been down there (living in NY and all) and it is a powerful experience, even with the merchandising along the street corner. (roachboy, I'd say that the hawking of wares isn't a sign of a lack of respect - it is a reflection of the strange commercial fetish that materialism has brought to Americans. They buy those plastic models of the WTC and the FDNY hats because that ownership speaks to them as a kind of remembrance. I'm with you in thinking that it seems crude, but the fact that those guys make money buy selling their wares shows that buying is part of the ritual for visitors). It is also a somber place - people don't act like New Yorkers. There isn't a lot of yelling, not a lot of pushing. People go there to reflect. Knowing that, it is not an appropriate place to SCREAM.

Silent_jay, I don't know where you got your hard-on about Americans and free speech. I may be reading into your posts, but it seems that you think our system is hypocritical. I say that it is not. If Matthew330 slapped that women, it would be an open and shut case of assault. She's got freedom of speech, even if she exercises it in an unpleasant way. He's got the freedom to walk on the other side of the street for 10 feet.

That said, freedom of speech is an important value in America, but so is taking responsibility for your actions. That is what was meant by the Supreme Court ruling that you can have freedom of speech, but not yell fire in a crowded theater. Go ahead, yell fire - if there is one, you'll be a hero and I promise there will be no negative repercussions. If there isn't, you should bear the responsibility for your actions. 9/11 is the same way, with a lot more emotional charge. You can say whatever you want - where you please as long as it doesn't abridge the rights of others. Matthew330's reaction to this is not proof that we don't believe in that right, but proof that we do. The right to free speech is important when that speech annoys others or goes against the status quo. However, that annoyance, or even complaints about the speakers message or methods are a vindication of that right, not an abridgement - because that possibly-crazy lady is still on the corner yelling.
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:10 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by matthew330

Her irrational and arguably unjustifiable hatred for the President, .
This is where an argument is invalidated because you cannot create an argument based on a subjective issue/circumstance.
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:30 AM   #33 (permalink)
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The argument wasn't based on the subjective part of that sentence, if it makes you feel better, pretend like "and arguably unjustifiable" isn't there.

..quick point of clarification, i wouldn't slap her. I would want to. I thought when i said "Seriously (in other words, i wasn't serious when i said i'd slap her two sentences ago), I'd tell her to fuck off" which is precisely what i would do. I thought it was pretty clear to begin with.

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Old 07-23-2004, 09:32 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I didn't read this entire thread, but I would say if it was me walking by, I might have tried to start a conversation with her rather then just ignore or or "tell her to fuck off". I would try and point out that my opinion there is better venues for voicing her opinion.
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Old 07-23-2004, 11:15 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I respect her right to speak out but do so at a more appropriate spot. I put this right there with having an anti-war rally beside the Vietnam Memorial. People come their to grieve not listen to someone's propaganda.
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Old 07-23-2004, 12:51 PM   #36 (permalink)
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doh, forgot to mention, she wasn't alone..

two guys giving out flyers and holding up a HUGE banner, lady shouting to the audience/visitors. She was all there.

Also, a few people were talking to the guys holding the banner, but i heard more than one person muttering that she just needed to STFU.

And yeah, freedom of speech at the WTC site is restricted within 20 ft , no posters, pamphlets, shouting, loud noises, skates/skateboards, profiteering, etc, within that area. 20 ft away, though, and yeah, you have vendors, the lady wtih her message, more vendors, etc.

One thing, though...
I was at union square and another anti-bush rally..well, more like anti-police state rally was going on. The guys were holding up a "no draft, stop the war, support the people of fallujah, nomore bush, (complete with swatstika for the S in his name)" series of banners while they passed around a microphone to each telling about the problems of the current admin and how they would probably be bitching about Kerry when he wins bc America is all about the money and they wouldnt' stop bitching until we realized that there is mroe to life than money...

Was very interesting, but there was a guy walking through the square who started shouting how he loved bush and how bush keeps america safe...this prompted a quick exchange of words between the person with the speaker and the random guy walking through. Essentially ending in a "Well, i may be a socialist liberal pussy and you a right wing nutjob, but at least i'm standing up for what I believe and not running away from this conversation like you" that resulted in a chorus of hooting.

Quite an interesting place here...but i've found that, for everyone that hates bush, another loves him....

I must say, though...there is a paper called the 'Village Voice" they make CNN look like fox news. No holds barred straight out of the village pissed off angst ridden reviews...I love it

funstuff..
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paq

And yeah, freedom of speech at the WTC site is restricted within 20 ft , no posters, pamphlets, shouting, loud noises, skates/skateboards, profiteering, etc, within that area. 20 ft away, though, and yeah, you have vendors, the lady wtih her message, more vendors, etc.
I bet if it was a pro-Bush rally or person yelling everyone would be fine with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Paq
doh, forgot to mention, she wasn't alone..

two guys giving out flyers and holding up a HUGE banner, lady shouting to the audience/visitors. She was all there.
Thanks for clarifying, it seems most people here thought they should be calling the white coats to come and pick her up, people should realise that not everyone who protests, or who demonstrates in the streets is a nut job.
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ubertuber
Silent_jay, I don't know where you got your hard-on about Americans and free speech. I may be reading into your posts, but it seems that you think our system is hypocritical. I say that it is not. If Matthew330 slapped that women, it would be an open and shut case of assault. She's got freedom of speech, even if she exercises it in an unpleasant way. He's got the freedom to walk on the other side of the street for 10 feet.
No "hard on" for Americans and free speech, I just enjoy seeing how there really isn't free speech anymore. Yes I do think your system is hypocritical, and this proves it, the majority of people here think this lady should have been silenced and for what reason? Much like everyone wanted Farenheit 9\11 to not be shown and MM silenced. Yep sounds like free speech to me.
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Old 07-23-2004, 02:37 PM   #39 (permalink)
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We want her to be silenced because she's a distasteful bitch, in the meantime, we're not going to physically stop her.
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:34 PM   #40 (permalink)
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i don't think i want her 'silenced' just in a different area. She can spout anything and everything she wants, that's fine, i just think it's akin to going into a church graveyard and shouting derogatory remarks about whatever religion it is when there is a funeral going on. She wasn't breaking the law or disrupting the peace or anything of that nature, but i think she should choose a bit of a different locale.

On the other hand, i can totally understand why she would do it there. It's directly related, it has a wide audience, etc, but while it may capture the attention of one or two people, it seems to just insult the rest who want to come and observe the site. as i said before, i'm extremely partisan, political, opinionated and i probably would agree on some level wtih a lot of what she was saying, but i don't want to even consider it while i am at that spot.

That's all for now
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