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Old 09-14-2004, 05:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Colin Powell describes neocons as "fucking crazies"

A furious row has broken out over claims in a new book by BBC broadcaster James Naughtie that US Secretary of State Colin Powell described neo-conservatives in the Bush administration as 'fucking crazies' during the build-up to war in Iraq.
Powell's extraordinary outburst is alleged to have taken place during a telephone conversation with Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. The two became close friends during the intense negotiations in the summer of 2002 to build an international coalition for intervention via the United Nations. The 'crazies' are said to be Vice-President Dick Cheney, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz.

Last week, the offices of Powell and Straw contacted Public Affairs, the US publishers of Naughtie's book, to say they would vigorously deny the claims if publication went ahead. But as no legal action was threatened, the US launch of the book, The Accidental American: Tony Blair and the Presidency, will proceed as planned this week.

Naughtie stands by his claims and is said to be privately delighted that Powell and Straw have reacted so violently to the suggestion that the former US general had fallen out with the 'neo-cons'.

Provocatively, the phrase 'fucking crazies' will be quoted on the jacket of the book, according to a source at the publisher. 'We were surprised to receive calls from the offices of Jack Straw and Colin Powell within 24 hours of each other,' the source said.

Naughtie claims that Powell and Straw spoke on an almost daily basis. Powell's concerns were said to have chimed with Straw's and those of Blair himself - that if America acted without UN sanction, allies would be lost.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...302834,00.html


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As much as I despise Bush, I alway liked Colin Powell. I have always thought that he was a man of honour, unlike those that he serves.

Lately on the news he looks exhausted. I guess it's safe to say that he's finished in the Bush administration.

I remember befor Iraq, he was the one who was not for the war and the chicken hawks used the media to humiliate him and start rumours about him. How he stuck around then is beyond me.

I find this article interesting that even Powell thinks that Cheney, Rumsfeldt and Wolfowitz are "fucking crazies"

Interesting read.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Powell thinks they are "Fucking crazies" because they so very blatently obviously are.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah, I've always heard that Powell was the the most "anti-war" of the Bush administration. I also believe that he probably wishes now he never accepted the position. Having been the one who went on record at the UN detailing Iraq's WMD's in excruciating detail, only to be shown to have been absolutely wrong, must not be his favourite memory.

However, how could an author repeat what was presumably a private conversation with Jack Straw? I'm dubious.

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Old 09-14-2004, 06:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Curious how he came to know of the phrase made during a private phone conversation, but very good news to hear that at least one person in the Bush administration wasn't war hawking.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:33 AM   #5 (permalink)
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A bit OT, but Colin Powell is the only guy in the Bush administration that I have a hair of trust in. This only reinforces that

I too am curious how the quote made its way out of a private phone call, though.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:36 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's interesting how every claim against Bush by an individual describing a private conversation is looked at as 100% accurate. Even more interesting that so many are coming out so fast as the election approaches. I'm sure that's purely a coincidence though and these are absolutely spot on characterizations of conversations.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The quote could have made its way out any number of ways.

Straw discussed it with his inner circle, and word gets round.

or maybe Powell hates the crazies so much that he wants it known.

It's not that they (the chicken hawks) haven't slammed him several times in the media.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Perhaps they got the quote from Kitty Kelly.



The only thing more amazing then blind hatred of Bush, is the faith any Bush hater has for all statements which make them feel good for hating Bush.

Now lets think about this. Since Colin Powel is one of the few Bush admin people Bush haters don't hate outright as Satan himself (and the reason for it is pretty black and white) and you all seem to think that somehow he does not support Bush but is only trying to salvage what he can for the country, you respect him. Now this secretary of state, a professional man, a man who seems to be in good control of himself and his language, would say to a representative of a foreign government, one we are about to go to war with as an ally, that members of his own administration were 'fucking crazies'.

On top of it, the man who writes about this is 'absolutely delighted' with it.

Yes this is a typical story for the Guardian.
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Old 09-14-2004, 07:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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the comment powell seems to have made fits well with much other evidence:

that the wolfowitz/rumsfeld crowd are, politically, nutjobs is obvious to anyone who looks (remember wolfowtiz's assumptions about the greeting the americans would get in iraq? remember? and where are we now? and why does wolfowitz still have a job?)
that there are and have been divisions within bush's administration between this circle of people and powell has also been obvious to anyone who looks.
that powell would have said something about it, finally, is not surprising.
it is not like powell's comments suddenly tear the veil away and/or reveal anything new.

i have long wondered what the personal and emotional toll must have been on powell of having to carryshit for the administrations to the un during the run-up to war, of being forced to make an obviously false presentation, of watching the presentation fail to sway other countries.
it must have been humiliating, even for someone accustomed to carrying out orders.

this is not the first time that comments on this order have been relayed into the larger world--but this is the first that purports to be in the first person.

bush supporters do not like thiese moments of candor, of course.
best to try to make them go away.
o they cant be true,
tsk tsk.
discipline uber alles.
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Old 09-14-2004, 07:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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roachboy, reports on the period you express interest in are covered in some detail by Bob Woodward in Plan of Attack. Woodward reports on the uncomfortable aspects of particular situations that existed for Powell but they are not reported as extraordinarily so.
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Old 09-14-2004, 07:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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In the dignified world of journalism (ahem), whenever a reporter doesn't know what he/she is talking about and is unsure of his source, the following disclaimers inevitably appear: "may have", "alleged", "purported", "rumored". Believe at your own risk.
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes this is a typical story for the Guardian.
The Guardian is not a rag paper.

So you think that Powell will be back for another term do you?
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Hasn't Powell already said he wouldn't serve another term? I could have sworn I have seen that in the press numerous times last year and the beginning of this year.
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:59 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pan6467
Hasn't Powell already said he wouldn't serve another term? I could have sworn I have seen that in the press numerous times last year and the beginning of this year.

There have been reports that he said that and there are plenty of anecdotal accounts that say he's been saying he would serve one term since he took on the position.

He has not come out publicly and told anyone he's going to leave. In fact there may be more reason for him to stay than ever.

Should Bush be re-elected diplomacy will likely be a larger factor in the second term. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, et al are in need of more international support/pressure than before.

Acting semi-unilaterally in the face of 9/11 was, IMO, warranted but now the focus needs to be on international cohesion in the fight against Al Qaeda and other sources of terror in the world.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onetime2
There have been reports that he said that and there are plenty of anecdotal accounts that say he's been saying he would serve one term since he took on the position.

He has not come out publicly and told anyone he's going to leave. In fact there may be more reason for him to stay than ever.

Should Bush be re-elected diplomacy will likely be a larger factor in the second term. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, et al are in need of more international support/pressure than before.

Acting semi-unilaterally in the face of 9/11 was, IMO, warranted but now the focus needs to be on international cohesion in the fight against Al Qaeda and other sources of terror in the world.
Thanks OneTime and btw, I do agree about the need for Powell to stay. IMO Powell is the best Bush could ever hope to have for that job.

As for whether the quote is real or fake? I think it's possible that it's true or that at the very least the wordage maybe different but the attitude there. Straw could have conveyed the conversation to others, and as mentioned above it got out, (people talk).

Or Straw could have conveyed it to the author and now denies it because he doesn't want Powell in trouble or their friendship hurt.

What truly is sad though is that it is not unbelievable. That says something about the respect that even his own people have for him and what the masses think.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
The Guardian is not a rag paper.

So you think that Powell will be back for another term do you?
Guardian is a left wing baised paper. Unlike the US the brits don't try to even pretend to hide it.

Its also normal for people to leave at mid term and at re-election. Re-election is always the best time because you still have influnce with the admin when you go into the private sector and make a pile of cash. Clintons people did it, I see no reason why Georges won't. Powel leaving would do nothing to validate the claim that he called neo-cons 'fucking crazies'. Even if he FELT that way he wouldn't be dumb enough to say something like that.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:26 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
As for whether the quote is real or fake? I think it's possible that it's true or that at the very least the wordage maybe different but the attitude there. Straw could have conveyed the conversation to others, and as mentioned above it got out, (people talk).

Or Straw could have conveyed it to the author and now denies it because he doesn't want Powell in trouble or their friendship hurt.

What truly is sad though is that it is not unbelievable. That says something about the respect that even his own people have for him and what the masses think.
Of course it's possible that it's true but I have little doubt that the verbage, context, and person/people it's directed at have been manipulated to serve the purposes of the author. Can I picture Powell saying something like this about "neo cons" in a certain context? Absolutely. Does anyone really believe he would be talking about Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, et al in this manner? If so then you seriously underestimate his statesmanship.

In truth, I'm not sure who your last sentence is alluding to.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Sorry last sentence referred to Bush.

I do agree Powell has too much class to publicly say anything like that. He could have been talking about the radio talking heads and the fanaticals out there.
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Old 09-14-2004, 01:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah I dont believe this.

Militarily it is drilled into your head over and over again, you DO NOT denounce anyone publicly. No matter how crazy they are, no matter how much you despise them you do not take your problems public. Unless it's something like Abu Graiv or killing of civilians on purpose, there are guidelines set down for it to go through the correct ways.
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Old 09-14-2004, 01:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Powell may or may not believe this, but I find it hard to believe that Powell would lose his mind and utter something like this aloud.

You don't climb the military ladder and make 4 star general by making mistakes like this.
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Old 09-14-2004, 02:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
The only thing more amazing then blind hatred of Bush, is the faith any Bush hater has for all statements which make them feel good for hating Bush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
However, how could an author repeat what was presumably a private conversation with Jack Straw? I'm dubious.
I could also ask you to quit using inaccurate monikers such as "Bush haters", as it makes you sound very partisan and devalues your argument and point of view. But then again, I doubt you would listen to me, being a Bush-lover and someone blind to any of his faults.

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Old 09-14-2004, 02:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
I could also ask you to quit using inaccurate monikers such as "Bush haters", as it makes you sound very partisan and devalues your argument and point of view. But then again, I doubt you would listen to me, being a Bush-lover and someone blind to any of his faults.

Mr Mephisto

Quote:
As much as I despise Bush, I alway liked Colin Powell. I have always thought that he was a man of honour, unlike those that he serves.
Quote:
Powell thinks they are "Fucking crazies" because they so very blatently obviously are.
I think these qualify as 'Bush haters'.
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Old 09-14-2004, 03:16 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Spoken or not, the statment rings true.
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Old 09-14-2004, 03:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I think these qualify as 'Bush haters'.
But it's just a phrase you made up and sounds silly.

I could call you a Rumsfeld-Butt-Lackey or a Bush-Baby or a Dubya-Doobie...

But it doesn't really make much sense.

It's much more appropriate to say something like Democrats, or Kerry Supporters etc.


Just my honest opinion mate.


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Old 09-14-2004, 04:11 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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funny how the information screening system for someone like ustwo works: vague accusation of left biais=a paper you dont read.

somehow you must imagine that devoting more paper space to articles and less to advertising, and providing more context in the reporting of news than you get in any american daily is in itself bad, something to be afraid of because context might indicate a "left biais"....
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:47 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
But it's just a phrase you made up and sounds silly.
This election to many on the left isn't about philosophy, policy, honesty, or whatever 'ee' you want but hating Bush. As such hate makes them irrational in their thought, and that is reflected in their posting. They will believe the most outrageous or tenuous claims, because they hate, they accept without question any criticism of Bush, because they hate, they will let no logic interfere with their hatred. The politics forum is looking more and more like the paranoia forum. Its either that or they are just stupid. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
funny how the information screening system for someone like ustwo works: vague accusation of left biais=a paper you dont read.

somehow you must imagine that devoting more paper space to articles and less to advertising, and providing more context in the reporting of news than you get in any american daily is in itself bad, something to be afraid of because context might indicate a "left biais"....

Oh roachy, I do read the Guardian from time to time, I am just not blind enough to see they don't have a bias to all of their political stories. That doesn't mean they might not have something interesting, it just means you have to understand their slant. The fact that this ridiculous claim is reported in the Guardian is not surprising, since they are a left wing paper. They didn't invent the story, like say CBS would , but they are willing to give it press time. They will not be critical of it, since it is basically 'anti-Bush'.

I don't know how old you are but it took me a while to understand just how biased the press can be, it really wasn't until I was in my mid 20's that I learned I couldn't trust much of it to be fair, and it wasn't until my late 20's when the Gore/Bush campaign was going on did I see just how obvious it is when you look for it.

Do you believe everything at Fox News at face value?
Did you get that point?
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Powell is too much the "Good Soldier" to say anything like this on the record. In private, well, those Army fuckers curse up a fuckin' storm. So I'd believe him saying something like this in a conversation with someone that he thought would stay private.
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Old 09-14-2004, 05:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
This election to many on the left isn't about philosophy, policy, honesty, or whatever 'ee' you want but hating Bush. As such hate makes them irrational in their thought, and that is reflected in their posting. They will believe the most outrageous or tenuous claims, because they hate, they accept without question any criticism of Bush, because they hate, they will let no logic interfere with their hatred. The politics forum is looking more and more like the paranoia forum. Its either that or they are just stupid. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
It's almost impressive how hypocritical you are that you would spend that much thought on excusing your "bush haters" label.

You're an honesty hater. An intelligence hater. A bi-partisan hater. An environment hater. A middle+lower class hater. A peace hater.

Should I go on, or do you get the point?
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Old 09-14-2004, 05:48 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpieCunningham
It's almost impressive how hypocritical you are that you would spend that much thought on excusing your "bush haters" label.

You're an honesty hater. An intelligence hater. A bi-partisan hater. An environment hater. A middle+lower class hater. A peace hater.

Should I go on, or do you get the point?
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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This isn't looking good at all.
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