Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-05-2004, 05:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Conservative Traditions no one supports anymore

I have noticed a number of mentions of tradition supporting the rationale for opinions against gay marriage. I have read historical documents defending many older traditions. I'd like this thread to list the discarded traditions. I'll start with a few: slavery, women as property, blacks being unable to own property, laws against oral sex.
maypo is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 06:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
cthulu23's Avatar
 
Blue laws (prohibiting business on Sundays).
cthulu23 is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 06:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Tradition is a beard.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 06:39 AM   #4 (permalink)
Devoted
 
Redlemon's Avatar
 
Donor
Location: New England
Human sacrifice.
Redlemon is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:01 AM   #5 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
The separation of church and state.
filtherton is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cthulu23
Blue laws (prohibiting business on Sundays).
Actually, many places still have some form of blue laws, but they usually deal with the sale of alcohol.
alansmithee is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:03 AM   #7 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Moderator Emeritus
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by cthulu23
Blue laws (prohibiting business on Sundays).
The county that I live in, in New Jersey (Bergen), a town which has 3 major shopping malls in a 3 mile radius (and a few minor ones), has blue laws. The malls are not allowed to open Sunday. (And honestly, I'm OK with it... - the traffic pattern on those highways the malls are located need one day's break)

Although as I hit enter -- i realize it may just be the town (Paramus) and not the entire county...
__________________
Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.
maleficent is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
Mencken
 
Scipio's Avatar
 
Location: College
government accountability? fiscal sanity?
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."
Scipio is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cthulu23
Blue laws (prohibiting business on Sundays).
besides what's already been posted,
i've been to backwater iowa towns where all restaurants and gas stations are closed on sunday.
trickyy is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 05:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
Observant Ruminant
 
Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town
Laws against fortune telling and palm reading (still on the books in my home town when I was a kid, and enforced).

Laws closing all bars and taverns on election day and not allowing them to reopen until the polls closed. I remember that one, too.

Indentured servitude, a fine old tradition from biblical times up through American colonial times.

Laws against anal or oral sex, gay or otherwise; isn't there still some of that down south?
Rodney is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 05:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney
Laws against anal or oral sex, gay or otherwise; isn't there still some of that down south?
Virginia is the only state I know of. If I recall, it was ordered to be changed in recent years; however, I'm not sure if the law is still existant or not.
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 07:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
Crazy
 
I understand that the Bush adminisitration wants to define marriage by Biblical standards. Well, let's open up their Bible, shall we?

Genesis states that "marriage shall be a union between a man and one or more women."

Oh, and Leviticus states that if a woman who marries isn't a virgin, the husband has a legal right to kill her.

Let's sit back and watch how many of these fundamentalists are going to sign the petition to present this bill to the legislature.

Let the denials and evasions begin.
ravenradiodj is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 08:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
please understand that marriage being uniquely between a man and a woman is also present in cultures that have received little or no biblical influence.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by irateplatypus
please understand that marriage being uniquely between a man and a woman is also present in cultures that have received little or no biblical influence.
Why is that important?
Manx is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by irateplatypus
please understand that marriage being uniquely between a man and a woman is also present in cultures that have received little or no biblical influence.
I'd actually like to see some evidence for this.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth
I'd actually like to see some evidence for this.
I believe that most cultures, other than the Greeks and the Romans, did not have gay marriage and it was look down apon very highly. And even with the Greeks and Romans there was no marriage, it was mostly a courting thing.
wnker85 is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnker85
I believe that most cultures, other than the Greeks and the Romans, did not have gay marriage and it was look down apon very highly. And even with the Greeks and Romans there was no marriage, it was mostly a courting thing.
that isn't what irate is claiming.

also, you need to comb through those cultures you hold in your mind (I don't know which ones you are aware of so I can't address them specifically) and ascertain whether they had formal institutions approximating 'marriage' as irate is claiming--a unique institution between one man and one woman. Then determine whether it's ever had any biblical influence. A daunting task. Please give me some names of the cultures you are thinking of and I'll help you search--so far I haven't found any.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Well, it appears as though Greece had 4 main types of marriage. Rome had more than a few, as well, but I haven't determined the number.

I did find this, though, that was quite interesting:

Quote:
History of same-sex unions

The east

For detailed information, please see Homosexuality in Japan, Homosexuality in China, History of homosexuality.

Same-gender romantic love or sexual desire has been recorded from ancient times in the east. Such desire often took the form of same-sex unions, usually between men, and often included some difference in age (there is far less information available on relationships among women in ancient times. This may in part reflect a philosophy that saw writing about women as unnecessary or inappropriate, or may be because same-sex attraction between women was not valued as it was between men, or may even be because women were not afforded equal status with men, so that, while men were free to pursue sexual and romantic pleasure both within and without marriage, women often were not).

In China, especially in the southern province of Fujian where male love was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate ceremonies. The marriages would last a number of years, at the end of which the elder partner would help the younger find a (female) wife and settle down to raise a family.

The west

There is a long history of same-sex unions in the western world. That many early western societies tolerated, and even celebrated, same sex relationships is well-known. Evidence of same-sex marriage, however, is less clear, but there exists some evidence, often controversial, of same-sex marriages in ancient Rome and Greece, and even in medieval Europe. Same-sex unions have also been recorded among Native Americans and Africans.

In ancient Rome, for example, the Emperor Nero is reported to have married, at different times, two other men in wedding ceremonies. Other Roman Emperors are reported to have done the same thing. The increasing influence of Christianity, which promoted marriage for procreative purposes, is linked with the increasing intolerance of homosexuality in Rome.

Same-sex marriage has been documented in many societies that were not subject to Christian influence. In North America, among the Native American societies, it has taken the form of two-spirit-type relationships, in which some members of the tribe, from an early age, heed a calling to take on female gender with all its responsibilities. They are prized as wives by the other men in the tribe, who enter into formal marriages with these two-spirit men. They are also respected as being especially powerful shamans.

In Africa, among the Azande of the Congo, men would marry youths for whom they had to pay a bride-price to the father. These marriages likewise were understood to be of a temporary nature.

Finally, in Europe during Hellenic times, pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) who had come of age were analogous to marriage in several aspects. The age of the youth was similar to the age at which women married (the mid-teens), and the relationship could only be undertaken with the consent of the father. This consent, just as in the case of a daughter's marriage, was contingent on the suitor's social standing. The relationship, just like a marriage, consisted of very specific social and religious responsibilities, and also had an erotic component.
--http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/s/sa/same_sex_marriage.html

Note the first sentence of the third paragraph from the bottom. So far, that exemption is the clearest refutation of Irate's point I have found so far.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth
Note the first sentence of the third paragraph from the bottom. So far, that exemption is the clearest refutation of Irate's point I have found so far.
It is not exactly a refutation of irate's statement, as his statement does not claim that all non-biblical cultures define marriage as between a man and a woman. But it does point out that although there may be other cultures that have that definition of marriage, there are also apparently cultures that include same sex couples in the definition. Which is interesting all by itself.

But all of that is beside the point of this discussion, as far as I can tell. Irate seemed to be making a point about Bush's desire to define marriage as heterosexual. I would like to know why Irate feels that other cultures, with restrictive definitions of marriage, have much if anything to do with the culture from which Bush derives his moral evaluations. Is it to claim that Bush is basing his belief system on some other culture than the one that is based on the Bible?

That would seem to be the purpose of Irate's statement. But I find it to be an odd opinion, the man is after all a Born Again Christian.

Last edited by Manx; 11-05-2004 at 10:13 PM..
Manx is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
It is not a refutation of irate's statement, as his statement does not claim that all non-biblical cultures define marriage as between a man and a woman. But it does point out that although there may be other cultures that have that definition of marriage, there are also apparently cultures that include same sex couples in the definition. Which is interesting all by itself.

But all of that is beside the point of this discussion, as far as I can tell. Irate seemed to be making a point about Bush's desire to define marriage as heterosexual. I would like to know why Irate feels that other cultures, with restrictive definitions of marriage, have much if anything to do with the culture from which Bush derives his moral evaluations. Is it to claim that Bush is basing his belief system on some other culture than the one that is based on the Bible?

That would seem to be the purpose of Irate's statement. But I find it to be an odd opinion, the man is after all a Born Again Christian.
actually, manx, that sentence with the one further up in regards to the evidence that homosexual marriage became a problem in rome commensurate with the rise of christianity speaks to the reality that the only evidence so far that marriage was limited to a unique definition of one man, one woman was within the christian paradigm.

here is a broad overview of many eastern and western cultures. none of them held the view irate is claiming--only biblical ones. So I still can't find evidence of his claim, yet evidence against it.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
Loser
 
Agreed.  
Manx is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
It is not exactly a refutation of irate's statement, as his statement does not claim that all non-biblical cultures define marriage as between a man and a woman. But it does point out that although there may be other cultures that have that definition of marriage, there are also apparently cultures that include same sex couples in the definition. Which is interesting all by itself.

But all of that is beside the point of this discussion, as far as I can tell. Irate seemed to be making a point about Bush's desire to define marriage as heterosexual. I would like to know why Irate feels that other cultures, with restrictive definitions of marriage, have much if anything to do with the culture from which Bush derives his moral evaluations. Is it to claim that Bush is basing his belief system on some other culture than the one that is based on the Bible?

That would seem to be the purpose of Irate's statement. But I find it to be an odd opinion, the man is after all a Born Again Christian.
What he seems to be doing is basing his definition (or Bush's) on an idea that there is a natural order.

That the bible reflects the natural order, because it is truth about the natural order of the universal laws of humanity.

yet, in order to substaniate that, one would need to find evidence of it outside the bible, presumably. so one would logically claim that such a definition existed outside the christian paradigm in order to make the claim that such a definition is a natural one, not socially (or religiously) constructed. Unfortunately, stretching back thousands of years, at least according to this and some other googling, it appears that there is no such thing as a "traditional" form of marriage--at least not one outside the judeo-christianity paradigm.


there certainly is a tradtional one within christianity. But I think irate was trying to make a claim on the natural order of human relations. it seems similar to the claim that homosexuality doesn't occur in the wild--an equally specious claim.

there is no natural barrier to homosexuality, evidently. not in humanity and not in wild animals.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-05-2004, 11:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
Paq
Junkie
 
Paq's Avatar
 
Location: South Carolina
in SC, it is illegal to have sex in any position other than missionary...oral sex is still banned, don't even think anal....

Also, until 1948, divorce was illegal...it was changed in 1948 due to all the returning GI's having 'difficulties' with married life..

our blue laws are more powerful than walmart....they are 24/6...then closed from midnight until 1:30 PM sunday...

no alcohol at all on sundays unless you're in a private club...

ummmmmmmmm........you can beat your wife on the steps of the capitol building in columbia..but only on sundays...

hell, we just passed an amendment to do away with minibottles in bars...
__________________
Live.

Chris
Paq is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 07:48 AM   #24 (permalink)
Who You Crappin?
 
Derwood's Avatar
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Well, just about every Levitical Law EXCEPT gay marriage/union/relations. Bible thumpers have a way of conveniently quoting what is useful to them and ignoring the rest.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/mo...c/KjvLevi.html
__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Last edited by Derwood; 11-06-2004 at 07:59 AM..
Derwood is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 10:07 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
conservative politics used to legitimate itself by claiming to be more descriptive than that of the left.

it is obvious that this is not longer important to the folk who run the right ideology machine.

conservatism in its non-militant form was about the protection of a status quo that actually existed in the empirical world.

populist american conservatism is as much about the imposition of an illusion of what already exists, an imposition of positions particular to far right evangelicals.

you would have thought that the history of the 20th century would caution against revolutionary conservative movements. but last time around, each movement thought that it was an exception to the pattern because the others had not quite gotten it right enough. this time, you get the veneer of far right protestant discourse to conceal the parallels between this revolutionary conservative movement and its predecessors.

this american right is not really a conservative movement at all.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 10:24 AM   #26 (permalink)
Insane
 
Sorry to derail this post even further. However, to go along with the gay marriage/union issue it is very obvious that a large percentage of people disagree with gay marriage. That is the fact. Both sides being argued in real life and in this thread seems very weak.

First, on cultural tradition. The majority are still in agreement with the cultural belief of marriage between a man and a woman in the United States. Why doesn't someone provide a practical argument countering this belief? Every argument that I have seen of the opposition simply makes fun of "bible thumpers" because their beliefs are "stupid". Personally, I feel that even suggesting that those against gay marriage should eliminate such a strong belief as this one because it is "stupid" or because it is not entirely accurrate with the bible is a pretty piss poor argument.

It's not very hard to provide logical arguments on both sides (although in my experience this has actually come from those not in support of gay marriage). Or why not use emotion to convince them of how better things would be even? The fact is that alot of people are in opposition of gay marriage. Criticizing their beliefs WILL NOT win them over. However, changing their beliefs will. I thought that was pretty obvious, so why can others not see it?
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 11:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
Who You Crappin?
 
Derwood's Avatar
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justsomeguy
Sorry to derail this post even further. However, to go along with the gay marriage/union issue it is very obvious that a large percentage of people disagree with gay marriage. That is the fact. Both sides being argued in real life and in this thread seems very weak.

First, on cultural tradition. The majority are still in agreement with the cultural belief of marriage between a man and a woman in the United States. Why doesn't someone provide a practical argument countering this belief? Every argument that I have seen of the opposition simply makes fun of "bible thumpers" because their beliefs are "stupid". Personally, I feel that even suggesting that those against gay marriage should eliminate such a strong belief as this one because it is "stupid" or because it is not entirely accurrate with the bible is a pretty piss poor argument.

It's not very hard to provide logical arguments on both sides (although in my experience this has actually come from those not in support of gay marriage). Or why not use emotion to convince them of how better things would be even? The fact is that alot of people are in opposition of gay marriage. Criticizing their beliefs WILL NOT win them over. However, changing their beliefs will. I thought that was pretty obvious, so why can others not see it?
Because I thought the very nature of the conservative ideal is not to have one's beliefs change, to keep everything as it is. Liberals are always labeled as the radical thinkers, not conservatives.

I think the reason people bash those who oppose gay marriage is that from our side, people are people and everyone deserves the same rights. I'm not sure how you can argue that this is not a civil rights issue, as one sect of society is clearly not treated equally, and people are voting to take rights away from them. That isn't what America was supposed to be about, but unfortunately, that's what America has become.
__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel
Derwood is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 12:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
Muffled
 
Kadath's Avatar
 
Location: Camazotz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paq
hell, we just passed an amendment to do away with minibottles in bars...
Haha, I saw that on The Daily Show. They made so much fun of the bartenders who don't know how to pour a drink from a real bottle.
__________________
it's quiet in here
Kadath is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 03:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood
Because I thought the very nature of the conservative ideal is not to have one's beliefs change, to keep everything as it is. Liberals are always labeled as the radical thinkers, not conservatives.
Incorrect. I can't think of many ideologies(national or internationally) that agree that change is not inevidible. Liberal and conservative thought differ primarily on how to handle a situation or problem. This is the basis for both modern Ideology. Conservative ideology generally says that problems exist in society. These problems must be addressed as a problem with humanity or the select group of people. To truly eliminate the problem from society, it must be be approached as a response to human nature. Liberal ideology tends to accept that this is not the case. The problems can be solved via government programs, funding, and intervention. So as you can see, both ideologies would require people's way of thinking. One is a direct approach and one is an indirect approach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood
I think the reason people bash those who oppose gay marriage is that from our side, people are people and everyone deserves the same rights. I'm not sure how you can argue that this is not a civil rights issue, as one sect of society is clearly not treated equally, and people are voting to take rights away from them. That isn't what America was supposed to be about, but unfortunately, that's what America has become.
Okay, so prove that it is a civil rights issue. As of now, people have the same rights when it comes to marriage. But, set up an argument to prove that it is discrimination. Set up an argument that is a natural right to be able to conduct gay marriages(I see this argument largely defeated by defense of human evolution). Also, explain how rights are being taken away. And finally, explain that marriage in a legal since is a right and not just a priviledge. You're trying to convince other people to agree with you. Not the other way around. It's not their responsibility to do research and defend it, it's your responsibility to educate and influence them.

This issue is nothing special. It's just like any other argument. For example if you were to convince people that the Atkins diet is good for losing weight, you would provide statistics, observations, science facts, and play a little on their emotions to help convince them.
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 04:07 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justsomeguy
Okay, so prove that it is a civil rights issue. As of now, people have the same rights when it comes to marriage. But, set up an argument to prove that it is discrimination. Set up an argument that is a natural right to be able to conduct gay marriages(I see this argument largely defeated by defense of human evolution). Also, explain how rights are being taken away. And finally, explain that marriage in a legal since is a right and not just a priviledge. You're trying to convince other people to agree with you. Not the other way around. It's not their responsibility to do research and defend it, it's your responsibility to educate and influence them.
People don't have the same rights when it comes to marriage. That is the issue. If "you" (not you) were alive while interracial marriage was prohibited "you" might also argue that no one was being denied the privelige to marry, just that they had to stick to their own kind. That was a civil rights issue and so is this.

Rights aren't being taken away, because they weren't there in the first place. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be there.

The biological argument against gay marriage is useless in a society where we don't limit marriages solely to those capable of reproduction.

The only argument necessary to justify gay marriage is that it hurts no one and benefits many. If you can think of rational way in which this last statement is not true i'd love to hear them.
filtherton is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 04:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton

The only argument necessary to justify gay marriage is that it hurts no one and benefits many.
-snip-


Damn.....that pretty much sums it up....don't it.....excellent
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 04:34 PM   #32 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maypo
I have noticed a number of mentions of tradition supporting the rationale for opinions against gay marriage. I have read historical documents defending many older traditions. I'd like this thread to list the discarded traditions. I'll start with a few: slavery, women as property, blacks being unable to own property, laws against oral sex.
Conservative as a adjective vrs political.

Troll post basicly.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 05:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i still do not understand why conservative christians woudl care who other people choose to love.
and if they accept that, on what basis there could possibly be an objection to these folk being able to avail themselves of the legal protections of marriage.
marriage is a legal institution.
none of the religious arguments make any sense to me.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 06:07 PM   #34 (permalink)
Insane
 
Okay, first, I'm not really concerned about gay marriage. I'm more concerned with the state of health care at the moment and eliminating limiting the rights of lawyers in court. I was just commenting you need a strong argument because you have to convince people that currently disagree with you that your belief is the best. A couple of counter responses on it's potential to hurt:

First, if a law is to be passed it must undoubtedly be within the best interest of the nation. That includes that all criteria associated with the law must be progressive and in no case regressive.

A few regressive arguments I have heard:

1. Gay marriage would be regressive in concerns to natural humanity. It is slander to humanity because it does not follow suit with typical means of evolution. An example is to take two populations each having 100 people. Both have 50 men and 50 women. One consists totally of heterosexuals. One consists totally of homosexuals. If each represented all of humanity then the population of homosexuals would soon die out. Therefore, heterosexuality has the potential to greatly regress humanity because it fails to meet a key characteristic of survival: Sustaining existence. This characteristic is not limited to homosexuals, but it is further regressed through gay behavior.

2. It has potential to have negative influence on the future of America. First and primarily because it opens up the ability of choice. Gay marriage would be more appealing to people if they could normally only marry someone of the opposite sex. If this were the case influx of population may exist in certain areas that could have potentially devastating results on but not limited to county and state industry and education.

3.If being gay is genetic as many argue, then it scientifically, it is a mutation. It is something that would need correction and require billions of dollars in research. Genetic mutations are referred to as something negative in relation to the human body. We would have to approach it in such a way. If gay marriage was the end point of the argument, then research and understanding wouldn't be such an immediate requirement. Therefore, it may not be within the best interest of gay Americans. Furthermore, the genetic argument must be rejected. Many disturbing problems in America is believed to resolve around genetic issues. It would not be within the best interest to condone something based on genetics alone. Issues of interest: Drug abuse and Child Pornography. I mean in no way to compare being gay with child pornography. It's just an example used to dictate to futile "Genetic Argument."

4.Gay marriage is harmful to society because of it does not promote democracy. This is because Americans future retains the hope of equality of all citizens. However, if one married couple could produce offspring, but one cannot, preference must be shown to those that can both financially and scientifically. This would eliminate the American notion of "Equal Opportunity."

For clarity, this relates to argument one. If gay people cannot have offspring, then they would depend upon heterosexuals to provide future offspring.

5.Tradition is not always the correct approach to political issues. This argument is not intended to disprove gay marriage, but it is intended to set prerequisities. It's important to educate Americans on the importance of the issue to a level of understanding which will be more perceivable. If this were not the case then it may be met with negative reactions and results such as that of the civil rights movement and the strong racism that still exists today.

These beliefs are not my own. Some are more extreme then others. Some are very nice arguments. Again, gay marriage is not a big deal to me. However, I think you should take a stand for abusive treatment towards gay Americans if you feel compelled. Gay people are greatly discriminated against in the medical field and in health care. Furthermore, the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights webpage have a site with quite abit of info. And while I disagree with many of their stances, I agree with many issues they stand for.

Last edited by Justsomeguy; 11-06-2004 at 06:13 PM..
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 07:13 PM   #35 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
I appreciate the effort, but none of those arguments are too convincing.

1. Allowing gays to marry isn't going to change the number of homosexuals, it might increase the number who come out of the closet. Many of them do reproduce. Gay dads aren't that rare. Despite this, let's assume that no homosexual has ever had a child. Well, they've been around as long as heterosexuals, how can it be explained that the human population is still increasing at an unsustainable rate? It can't. Even if everyone became gay, we'd still have the choice to have children or not.

2. I doubt that allowing gays to marry would result in a mad rush by heteros to enter into gay marriages. I haven't seen any evidence that the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in our society has resulted in an increase in the number of gay people. This argument assumes that being gay is a choice, which is a hard sell. Could you decide to be gay? Even if you could, i think if you base your argument on the assertion that having a choice is a bad thing for consenting adults you'd have a hard time being for anything.

3.
Quote:
Genetic mutations are referred to as something negative in relation to the human body.
If it weren't for mutations we'd be single cell organisms. Pure science doesn't make judgments on things like that. Mutations do what mutations do, whether they're good or bad is in the eye of the beholder. Even if it was a "bad" mutation, it is a rather benign one, don't you think? It doesn't cause blindness, or shorten the lifespan. I think it would be a pretty low priority if humanity ever reaches the point where we have the ability and ethics to eliminate genetic mutations.

4. I'm not sure i understand anything about this point, other than that it is a stretch.

5. Please clarify
filtherton is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 07:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: geff il
Well since this thread has seriously sidetracked i will keep it going on the gay marriage deal... with this simple question. Why change.... someone above me said... simple it benefits many and hurts none. Well some would argue "kazaa" does the same thing yet 1000's try to make it illegal. Some would say auto insurance is the same hurts none benefits many. Tell that to the people who eat rather than pay for it and then get sued for more than they will ever make. I say why legalize something that hasnít been needed or even really talked about for 200 years but in the last 20 OmG itís really an important issue. I understand gay people say we need it we are being treated unfairly. But i say to them you brought the unfairness on yourself.. Yes look back in history before you brought it out into the media and made homosexual a diner table word. You were not persecuted maybe not accepted but are you really now? No you are trying to force "mainstream society" to accept you. You cannot force a whole society to condone your personal opinion or choice or hell even your defect. ( For those who say i was born like that) Websterís Specialty Definition: Birth defect

(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)
A birth defect is a physical or mental abnormality present at the time a child is born.

Abnormality Websterís definition 4. Behavior that breaches the rule or etiquette or custom or morality


My definition born diffrennt than others.....

Just the same as republicans or w bush cant force the whole of America to accept that it was right to invade Iraq most people decided it was the right thing to do so everyone must accept it.. Most people donít want to see a 2 husband or 2 wife marriages. So my guess is they wonít. Plain and simple as i borrow this from a previous poster

Damn.....that pretty much sums it up....don't it.....excellent
__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks
rfra3645 is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 08:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
I appreciate the effort, but none of those arguments are too convincing.

1. Allowing gays to marry isn't going to change the number of homosexuals, it might increase the number who come out of the closet. Many of them do reproduce. Gay dads aren't that rare. Despite this, let's assume that no homosexual has ever had a child. Well, they've been around as long as heterosexuals, how can it be explained that the human population is still increasing at an unsustainable rate? It can't. Even if everyone became gay, we'd still have the choice to have children or not.
I don't think I made point one as clear as I had wished it to be. I wasn't commenting on gay marriage directly, I was just commenting on being gay. As far as the future of humans is concerned at this moment, gay people could not reproduce by themselves. So, it's not favorable for the future of humanity. This is simply referring to gay behavior(being gay). So, gay marriage would either have to promote it or be against being gay. It promotes it. So, I was intending an if A=B and B=C, then A=C argument.

4. Okay, to clarify, understand that we have many opportunities to have offspring with our technology. I guess you could say we beat evolution in many ways. But do realize that sperm bank systems are not the best source of producing children.

What I mean is that the main argument for gay marriage is that gay people should have equal opportunity for marriage. They should be able to marry whoever the please. Well, their marriage wouldn't be the same though. Heterosexual people can naturally have children. Homosexuals cannot. So, their marriage would not posses the equal potential or opportunity(i.e. no potential for naturally conceiving a child).

5. I meant it is important to convince a larger percentage of people to accept gay marriage. You need to make the people really believe in it. If you toss it into existence with alot of bitter people, it will be met with bitter results.

It's really to look at any argument with an abstract outlook, however. Just wanted to add that if we look at logical arguments and think, "Really, they fail to recognize what the 'real' situation is," then there really is not a point in supporting/opposing a belief.
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 08:12 PM   #38 (permalink)
Insane
 
Reverting back to the actual post;b

I'm trying to establish the tradition of a wife giving oral every night after work and a home cooked meal every night of the week. But, unfortunately, I think it fits into those traditions listed in this post. Traditions that no one supports! Or atleast not alot of wives.
Justsomeguy is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 08:24 PM   #39 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justsomeguy
Reverting back to the actual post;b

I'm trying to establish the tradition of a wife giving oral every night after work and a home cooked meal every night of the week. But, unfortunately, I think it fits into those traditions listed in this post. Traditions that no one supports! Or atleast not alot of wives.
damn, that sucks (or doesn't).

but if it's any consolation, my wife is keeping those traditions alive and well over here in the liberal bastion of california.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 11-06-2004, 08:39 PM   #40 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justsomeguy
Reverting back to the actual post;b

I'm trying to establish the tradition of a wife giving oral every night after work and a home cooked meal every night of the week. But, unfortunately, I think it fits into those traditions listed in this post. Traditions that no one supports! Or atleast not alot of wives.

This all ties in with the lost american tradition of wife beating.
filtherton is offline  
 

Tags
anymore, conservative, supports, traditions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:47 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360