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Old 11-06-2004, 11:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Yep the Saudis are our "friends"

Until the people revolt against the HOuse of Saud.... unless of course they want Bush to protect and defend the while we are on the verge of a 3 maybe 4 (Afghan, Iraq, Iran, Syria) front war anyway. Shall we just all start getting our guns ready to go over soon? Bush believes God wants us there and him as president..... this is what happens when you have a president so entrenched in religion he not only believes these are end times he's ready to make sure Armeggedon happens.

It's not about what the truth is over there it is about their propaganda being listened to and believed just as ours is here.

==========================================================

Saudi Religious Scholars Support Holy War

Sat Nov 6, 9:54 PM ET Middle East - AP


By DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press Writer

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Prominent Saudi religious scholars urged Iraqis to support militants waging holy war against the U.S.-led coalition forces as American troops prepared Saturday for a major assault on the insurgent hotbed of Fallujah.

The 26 Saudi scholars and preachers said in an open letter to the Iraqi people that their appeal was prompted by "the extraordinary situation through which the Iraqis are passing which calls for unity and exchange of views." The letter was posted on the Internet.

"At no time in history has a whole people been violated ... by propaganda that's been proved false," Sheik Awad al-Qarni, one of the scholars, told Al-Arabiya TV.

"The U.S. forces are still destroying towns on the heads of their people and killing women and children. What's going on in Iraq is a result of the big crime of America's occupation of Iraq."

In their letter, the scholars stressed that armed attacks by militant Iraqi groups on U.S. troops and their allies in Iraq represent "legitimate" resistance.

The scholars were careful to direct their appeal to Iraqis only and stayed away from issuing a general, Muslim-wide call for holy war. They also identified the military as the target, one that is considered legitimate by many Arabs who view U.S. troops and their allies as occupiers.

The independent scholars some of whom have been criticized in the past for their extremist views apparently did not want to antagonize the Saudi government, a U.S. ally, or appear to be flouting its efforts to fight terrorism.

Saudi Arabia has sealed off its long border with Iraq and bars people from crossing into that country. Its most senior clerics issued a statement last year saying the call for jihad or holy war should only come from the ruler and should not be based on edicts issued by individual clergymen.

Saudi officials did not comment on the latest statement.

The clerics' appeal came as U.S. troops, backed by air and artillery power and Iraqi security forces, were gearing up for a major assault on Fallujah.

The clerics issued a fatwa, or religious edict, prohibiting Iraqis from offering any support for military operations carried out by U.S. forces against insurgent strongholds.

"Fighting the occupiers is a duty for all those who are able," the letter said. "It is a jihad to push back the assailants. Resistance is a legitimate right. A Muslim must not inflict harm on any resistance man or inform on them. Instead, they should be supported and protected."

Besides al-Qarni, the prominent scholars signing the letter included Sheik Safar al-Hawali, Sheik Nasser al-Omar, Sheik Salman al-Awdah and Sheik Sharif Hatem al-Aouni.

Al-Hawali, who was jailed in the 1990s for five years without trial because he criticized U.S. involvement in the 1991 Gulf War against Iraq, once was close to Saudi-born al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden. He opposed the presence of U.S. troops in the kingdom.

His name appeared this month on a list issued by a group of Arab intellectuals seeking to prosecute prominent clerics for encouraging terrorism.

The scholars said inter-Iraqi fighting would cause "great damage to the Iraqis and give a free service to the Jews who are infiltrating into Iraq and to the coalition forces which exploit differences to consolidate their domination."

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam and home to its two holiest cities, has launched a campaign against militants. The crackdown began after al-Qaida-affiliated operatives attacked three residential compounds in Riyadh in May 2003 and killed dozens of people, bringing terrorism to the kingdom for the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks
==========================================================
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=540&ncid=716
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-07-2004, 12:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Oh yeah.... with the war and all who is making our military equipment for us, supplying our steel and building our ships, planes and tanks..... cause we don't have the factories here to do it?
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-07-2004, 04:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, Saudi Arabia is were alot of hatred towards the USA originates. The posting of US troops in the first gulf war is what lead to Osama Bin Laden creating Al Qaeda. The regime in Saudi Arabia is oppresive and rather undemocratic. The support of regimes such as this leads to the complete rejection by many in those countries of the US claims of 'spreading democracy'.
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Old 11-07-2004, 06:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town
Going to be a big special on CNN tonight about Saudi Arabia and what's going on there. Probably worth a look.

Another problem with the Sauds, the royal family, is that they have made a deal with religious fundamentalists at home to maintain power. The fundamentalists don't challenge Saud power, and the Sauds let the fundamentalists control religious and educational affairs. What is coming out of Saudi Arabia now is only to be expected.
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Old 11-07-2004, 07:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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26 people in a land of millions.

We have those people here too, dont forget. Dont put the actions of a few make your decisions about an entire country. I've known and spoken to many Saudis, and they all agree that MOST of the people there like America, not love, and definately arent happy over our foreign policy, but definately like and admire us. But then again I know that's fundamentally flawed because I'm basing it on just a handfull of people. The thing is only the bad gets played out on the news.
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Old 11-07-2004, 08:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
26 people in a land of millions.

We have those people here too, dont forget. Dont put the actions of a few make your decisions about an entire country. I've known and spoken to many Saudis, and they all agree that MOST of the people there like America, not love, and definately arent happy over our foreign policy, but definately like and admire us. But then again I know that's fundamentally flawed because I'm basing it on just a handfull of people. The thing is only the bad gets played out on the news.
I respect what you are saying Seaver, but these "clerics" probably have some following. Yes it maybe like having a Fallwell or Robertson saying they want war over here and a majority would laugh at them, but there are the ones that take what they say so seriously that they'd do it.

The extremists are the hardest people to fight because they blindly and unquestionably follow orders and believe their cause is worth dying for.

I'd venture to say we have quite a few guys over there that aren't so loyal (because of the way the administration kept lying over the causes... and the fact our troops aren't as well equipped as they should be.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-07-2004, 02:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Location: NJ
I don't know that too many people believe the Saudis are our friends. Sure some may say so publicly but that's politics not real life. The simple fact is that we have few options in dealing with Saudi Arabia. They have vast political influence around the world and especially in the Middle East. We can not invade them, sanction them, or cut off diplomatic relations with them without causing counterproductive havoc.

Hopefully a growing democracy next door in Iraq will help push their society away from extremism but there isn't too much, in the short term, we can do to exert pressure on them.

And, for those who think we can get away from dependence on foreign oil (I know it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but I have faith that someone would/will bring it up), even if we cut our ties to crude, how will we cut all of our trading partners' dependence?
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Old 11-07-2004, 03:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onetime2
And, for those who think we can get away from dependence on foreign oil (I know it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but I have faith that someone would/will bring it up), even if we cut our ties to crude, how will we cut all of our trading partners' dependence?
We can't, not this year or maybe even this decade. But we can start working toward it by encouraging and subsidizing new energy technologies until economies of scale make their manufacture cheaper. And we can share them with our friends, if they aren't already ahead of us on them. (Northern Europeans, for instance, are huge on wind power, much bigger than us.)

I don't think we can get off oil entirely even in the next 20 years in that time while continuing to work towards an oil-free energy system, we and our friends would have more leverage with the oil producers in the meantime.
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Old 11-07-2004, 03:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Wow, imagine that.

In Saudi Arabia there are people who hate America. Therefore, ALL Saudis hate America...

I love this kind of logic.


Mr Mephisto
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Old 11-09-2004, 06:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney
We can't, not this year or maybe even this decade. But we can start working toward it by encouraging and subsidizing new energy technologies until economies of scale make their manufacture cheaper. And we can share them with our friends, if they aren't already ahead of us on them. (Northern Europeans, for instance, are huge on wind power, much bigger than us.)

I don't think we can get off oil entirely even in the next 20 years in that time while continuing to work towards an oil-free energy system, we and our friends would have more leverage with the oil producers in the meantime.
I'll be shocked if there isn't a significant number of countries (60 to 70%) who aren't almost completely dependent on oil in 100 years.

Having a few countries ahead of us is nothing. It will take 50 years before China is substantially developed and it will be dependent on oil at least that long. Add in other developing countries and there's little chance you'll see the kind of progress you are expecting.
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
Wow, imagine that.

In Saudi Arabia there are people who hate America. Therefore, ALL Saudis hate America...

I love this kind of logic.


Mr Mephisto
I think I better go check for signs of the apocalypse, I just agreed with Mr. Mephisto..... Anyways, yeah, there are a lot of the Islamists in Saudi Arabia who have hijacked their religion. My own opinion about Islam itself aside, for the most part, Muslim people are rather peaceful, there's no reason to think that all Saudis completely dislike us. Yes, the government doesn't do much to curb this kind of rhetoric or the actions that result from them, but if they were our true enemies, they'd be constantly giving out troop positions and such to the other side in Saudi Arabia. Apathetic to fighting the war on terror? Oh yeah. Our arch-nemesis? Not so much.
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer2371
I think I better go check for signs of the apocalypse, I just agreed with Mr. Mephisto..... Anyways, yeah, there are a lot of the Islamists in Saudi Arabia who have hijacked their religion. My own opinion about Islam itself aside, for the most part, Muslim people are rather peaceful, there's no reason to think that all Saudis completely dislike us. Yes, the government doesn't do much to curb this kind of rhetoric or the actions that result from them, but if they were our true enemies, they'd be constantly giving out troop positions and such to the other side in Saudi Arabia. Apathetic to fighting the war on terror? Oh yeah. Our arch-nemesis? Not so much.
The royal family of Saud is a very nasty dictatorial family that has no respect for human rights. they are not the beloved leader family the press and our government make them out to be.

If we weren't there protecting them I think the Saud family would be close to having a Shah of Iran type revolution happen. I truly do not believe the Saud family would find a Democracy in their neighbor Iraq beneficial to them. So I don't think they're going to work to hard to stop any insurgencies.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-09-2004, 09:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
Lennonite Priest
 
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Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer2371
I think I better go check for signs of the apocalypse, I just agreed with Mr. Mephisto..... Anyways, yeah, there are a lot of the Islamists in Saudi Arabia who have hijacked their religion. My own opinion about Islam itself aside, for the most part, Muslim people are rather peaceful, there's no reason to think that all Saudis completely dislike us. Yes, the government doesn't do much to curb this kind of rhetoric or the actions that result from them, but if they were our true enemies, they'd be constantly giving out troop positions and such to the other side in Saudi Arabia. Apathetic to fighting the war on terror? Oh yeah. Our arch-nemesis? Not so much.
The royal family of Saud is a very nasty dictatorial family that has no respect for human rights. they are not the beloved leader family the press and our government make them out to be.

If we weren't there protecting them I think the Saud family would be close to having a Shah of Iran type revolution happen. I truly do not believe the Saud family would find a Democracy in their neighbor Iraq beneficial to them. So I don't think they're going to work to hard to stop any insurgencies.

But what do I know.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-09-2004, 09:14 PM   #14 (permalink)
Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One
 
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Location: On the front lines against our very enemy
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
The royal family of Saud is a very nasty dictatorial family that has no respect for human rights. they are not the beloved leader family the press and our government make them out to be.

If we weren't there protecting them I think the Saud family would be close to having a Shah of Iran type revolution happen. I truly do not believe the Saud family would find a Democracy in their neighbor Iraq beneficial to them. So I don't think they're going to work to hard to stop any insurgencies.

But what do I know.

Oh no doubts about that, I personally think more pressure on the Saudis would definitely yield more positive results in the longterm. However, when a nation's got us by the balls like that, kind of similar to our relationship with China (they own 10% of our national debt). But we've only got a few options, dip into our oil reserve, drill in ANWR or wait for more alternative fuels. So there are few roads out of that situation that we've put ourselves in. But I was talking more about how a few on the thread were implying that every Saudi citizen is an enemy of the U.S. Like I said, I wish we could put more pressure on the Saudis, but if wishes were fishes, oh how full the sea would be.
__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."
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Old 11-09-2004, 10:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aKula
Yes, Saudi Arabia is were alot of hatred towards the USA originates. The posting of US troops in the first gulf war is what lead to Osama Bin Laden creating Al Qaeda. The regime in Saudi Arabia is oppresive and rather undemocratic. The support of regimes such as this leads to the complete rejection by many in those countries of the US claims of 'spreading democracy'.
I don't know about that
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer2371
I think I better go check for signs of the apocalypse, I just agreed with Mr. Mephisto.....

LOL


Do I really have that much of a reputation as a "leftie" round here? Surely not everyone disagrees with everything I say?!

Maybe I should temper my tone...


Mr Mephisto
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:11 AM   #17 (permalink)
Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One
 
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Location: On the front lines against our very enemy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto
LOL


Do I really have that much of a reputation as a "leftie" round here? Surely not everyone disagrees with everything I say?!

Maybe I should temper my tone...


Mr Mephisto

Heh. I've read some of your posts before and you do have a liberal slant, and I've got a conservative slant so I normally disagree with you, but I recognize that you are pretty well informed so I don't harp on you too much. I learned a long time ago to just move on if I've got nothing to add but "Good points, but I disagree..." cuz then it just turns into a shouting match of ideals and I hate those. I did enjoy your post on the successes of the UN though, while I disagree with some of their methodology, they do get good results out of their humanitarian endeavors. /end thread hijack.
__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."
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