Foreigners Adopting More African-American Babies - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

CShine · 03-01-2005, 04:24 AM

Obviously, this topic has some very racially-charged angles and I don't pretend to know how everyone thinks about them. That said, I do think this is a very interesting subject which lies outside the realm of the usual political squabbles and I'm curious to know what everyone's impression is.

Quote:

The U.S. State Department says the number of couples adopting American babies from other countries has more than doubled over the last decade. At the same time some Americans don't adopt babies from other countries, saying there's a lack of babies up for adoption in the United States. But in reality, there are plenty of American babies who need a home. Most of them are African-American.

Allison Drake and Earl Stroud wanted to adopt a child. For a White baby, they would have had to wait for several years. Allison and Earl live in Ottawa, Canada. They did not have to wait to adopt Ethan, who is from Chicago, Illinois, where more than 80 percent of babies available for adoption are Black.

Increasingly, Black children are finding homes in Germany, France and especially Canada, which puzzles Earl Stroud.

"I just don't understand why American couples go to China and Romania and places like that, when they have kids in their own backyard," says Mr. Stroud.

Michelle Hughes, an adoption attorney, says the main reason is racism. "And parents will actually say, 'I'll take anything but an Africa-American child'," says Ms. Hughes.

Margaret Fleming runs an agency that specializes in finding homes for Black children. She helped Earl and Allison adopt Ethan. And Margaret has adopted five, herself.

"At the very top of the adoption hierarchy are White, blue-eyed blonde-haired girls, and unfortunately, at the very bottom of hierarchy, are African-American boys," says Ms. Fleming.

Margaret Fleming says for White families who adopt Black children, there are challenges as they grow older. Phil Bertelsen knows that well. He has made a film about growing up in an adoptive White family.

"I do think it is a mistake to say that race doesn't matter. You are setting yourself up for the shock and pain of racism when it does occur, and it inevitably will," says Phil.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-03-01-voa1.cfm

doncalypso · 03-01-2005, 04:34 AM

Good article.... very good article.

Too many people here on TFP try to act like racism is something in America's dark past and doesn't exist anymore. Glad someone is willing to bring forth some info to prove them wrong.

NCB · 03-01-2005, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doncalypso

Good article.... very good article.

Too many people here on TFP try to act like racism is something in America's dark past and doesn't exist anymore. Glad someone is willing to bring forth some info to prove them wrong.

So because people who choose to adopt an Asian or Russian child instead of an Afro-American child is automatically a racist? Explain

Charlatan · 03-01-2005, 05:16 AM

People are adopting Asian and Russian children because it is trendy. All you have to do is make adopting Black American babies trendy and the problem is solved.

I don't think racism is at the heart of this...

hannukah harry · 03-01-2005, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

People are adopting Asian and Russian children because it is trendy. All you have to do is make adopting Black American babies trendy and the problem is solved.

I don't think racism is at the heart of this...

i know people who hated capri pants, thought they were the ugliest thing. but when they became trendy to wear, they were buying them. once they weren't so trendy, they were back to hating them.

just because something becomes trendy doesn't mean that prevoius thoughts/feelings about them become null and void.

if someone wants to adopt a child and purposely goes out of the country because the only way they can adopt a non-black child is by doing so, i'd have to say that there is some form bias against blacks going on.

after all, a child is a child, right?

daswig · 03-01-2005, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CShine

Obviously, this topic has some very racially-charged angles and I don't pretend to know how everyone thinks about them. That said, I do think this is a very interesting subject which lies outside the realm of the usual political squabbles and I'm curious to know what everyone's impression is.

It'd be interesting to see what kinds of problems the children that are not being adopted in the US have. For example, there may be a perception that kids available for adoption in the US are more likely to have ED/LD problems associated with parental drug/alcohol abuse, while children overseas may not have that stigma attached to them. Drug/alcohol abuse, of course, cuts across racial lines, but the odds of a child being brought in from either China or Romania having chemical-induced medical problems would be lower than a child available for adoption in the US might have, regardless of racial factors, since China and Romania are not considered to have a large drug problem. Another possible thing would be perception of a risk of HIV. For example, I doubt that children from a country with a really high HIV rate would be attractive adoption candidates.

Regardless of racial characteristics, I'd think that a child whose biological parents were not drug addicts or high-risk for HIV would be more adoptable than a child whose parents were drug addicts and who were at high risk for HIV, even if the first child was black and the second child was white with blonde hair and blue eyes.

maleficent · 03-01-2005, 06:13 AM

I don't think trendy is the real crux of the problem.

I have very good friends who adopted two girls from China. They tried for years to adopt an American child - they would have happily taken an African American child, but they had a tough time meeting some qualifications for adoption. ie their age...

Adopting outside the US is a lot easier for people who are above a certain age (in the case of my friends, he was 44, she was 42_ they could not adopt in the US even though they own their own home in a lovely community, he's makes an excellent salary, she does not need to work, and they both do some serious volunteer work. It was their ages working against them.

daswig · 03-01-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hannukah harry

after all, a child is a child, right?

I wouldn't think so. A healthy child is a healthy child, and a child who is at risk for chemically generated birth defects would be less of an attractive adoption candidate.

For example, a white child from two healthy parents that didn't do drugs, smoke, or drink alcohol and who had proper prenatal care would be considerably more attractive for adoption than a white prematurely-born child whose mother smoked crack while pregnant and who received no prenatal care.

I've got a 7 month old daughter. When we were working on a plan to concieve, my wife did a whole bunch of stuff that people who were not planning to conceive wouldn't do, like take massive doses of folic acid to lower the risk of certain birth defects. She didn't smoke or drink a single drop of alcohol during that time and during the pregnancy. We were at the OB/GYN's office at the minimum of every two weeks throughout the course of the pregnancy, getting checkups/ultrasounds/et cetera. When the baby was born, she was as healthy as can be, with a "high normal" birth weight, et cetera. If our daughter was up for adoption, I'm sure she'd be adopted in practically no time.

Somebody we know got pregnant about 2 months after my wife got pregnant. She continued to smoke both cigarettes and crack cocaine while pregnant, and she drank like a fish. She received no prenatal care. The baby was born a month prematurely, had a low birth weight, and visually appears to be a high-risk candidate for some form of ED/LD/mental retardation. His cranium LOOKS deformed, much smaller than what I'd consider "normal". He's already exhibiting signs of mental abnormality. Child Protective Services are already involved with him, and he's 5 months old. If he were up for adoption, I think he would have trouble being placed, not because of race (both babies are white), but because he's operating at a huge deficit already, and it's only going to get worse.

maximusveritas · 03-01-2005, 06:43 AM

When a parent says 'I'll take anything but an Africa-American child', it's hard not to call it what it is.
Still, I think Daswig is right when he hints that these numbers may be inflated by the number of African-American children who may be unhealthy due to parental drug/alcohol abuse and other factors.
And another factor may be that the state or biological parents of some of these black children prefer that the child not go to parents of a different race.

maleficent · 03-01-2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

I wouldn't think so. A healthy child is a healthy child, and a child who is at risk for chemically generated birth defects would be less of an attractive adoption candidate.

I've read plenty of stories about how children adopted from Russia and Romania have all sorts of emotional issues as well as higher risks of having AIDS. That doesn't stop people from adopting them.

Most Chinese children that are adopted, are girls, and most of those girls were abandoned on the side of the road, and little is known of their parentage.

The other risk that is taken for adopting locally, is most US adoptions are open adoptions, there's very little from stopping the biological parent from getting involved in the child's life. Something that may more may not be good for the child. Foreign adoptions, I doubt that would be a problem.

hannukah harry · 03-01-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

I wouldn't think so. A healthy child is a healthy child, and a child who is at risk for chemically generated birth defects would be less of an attractive adoption candidate.

For example, a white child from two healthy parents that didn't do drugs, smoke, or drink alcohol and who had proper prenatal care would be considerably more attractive for adoption than a white prematurely-born child whose mother smoked crack while pregnant and who received no prenatal care.

but most of that would be known. you can't tell me that someone who goes in saying 'i'll take anything but a black baby' is saying that because they're only afraid that it has a higher risk for hiv/birth defects. by the time a baby is adopted (unless it's going straight from birth to the adopted parents), they're going to know if it has hiv (either way they'll test it and know) and many birth defects they'll know at birth too. some won't be apparant until later in development, but many will be. the adoption agencies will know if the child was born prematurely, under/over weight, etc. so if someone is saying 'any but a black baby' there's more to it than just 'hiv/birth defects.'

martinguerre · 03-01-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

I wouldn't think so. A healthy child is a healthy child, and a child who is at risk for chemically generated birth defects would be less of an attractive adoption candidate.

Mal says some smart things....so i'll just add that i think you're missing something pretty huge. The love of a parent to a child is not a rational endevour, done with a strict mind for economic tradeoffs.

retsuki03 · 03-01-2005, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doncalypso

Good article.... very good article.

Too many people here on TFP try to act like racism is something in America's dark past and doesn't exist anymore. Glad someone is willing to bring forth some info to prove them wrong.

While it may be racism, it is hardly on the scale of things involved in America's past. Failure to adopt children is not on par with germ warfare with indians or slavery.

I would not even call this racism. I would call it a majority of white families wanting to adopt a white child, asian families an asian child, and black families a black child. I would also venture to say that the majority of families adopting children are probably white.

Also, I think the cause of this is somewhat economical. I think there are a disproportionate number of black children up for adoption than white children in relation to their populations size. That being said, because white children are more rare/scare, they have a higher value and more people want them. Some more research might reveal that black families adopting children choose black children more often than white or asian children. Would that also be racism?

And yet another reason, in general, families adopting children might see potential risks in raising a child of another race. The could be worried about what others could say, about what their child would say when it grows older, they could worry about alienating their child, or their child being teased, or having an identity crisis... There could be any number of reasons born out of fear and not so much racism that lead to this.

That being said, I would argue that in America blacks, whites, asians (and whatever other ethnicity you want to insert) have different cultures which lead to different perceptions by each other. Racism or not, I am sure the disproportionate number of black men in prison probably has an effect on the adoption rate of black boys. Right or wrong, fair or unfair.

Granted, some of the fault probably lies with racism, but I believe the majority of it lies elsewhere.

Charlatan · 03-01-2005, 07:36 AM

Mal... you make a good point about the difficulties of getting children here. I recall friends having this difficulty as well.

That said, I don't think there is enough awareness that there are these American children, who happen to be black, to adopt.

If as much outcry were raised about these babies being parentless as these is for the babies of China, I think there would be a rapid increase in the number of these babies getting adopted.

I think Daswig's "sick" baby issue is relevant as well. While the reality is probably more along the lines that the majority of these babies are healthy, the White American perception would be that they are all crack babies... That would certainly smack of prejudice if it were true.

Yakk · 03-01-2005, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retsuki03

Also, I think the cause of this is somewhat economical. I think there are a disproportionate number of black children up for adoption than white children in relation to their populations size. That being said, because white children are more rare/scare, they have a higher value and more people want them. Some more research might reveal that black families adopting children choose black children more often than white or asian children. Would that also be racism?

Yes, that is evidence of racism. Not proof of racism, but evidence.

And no, it isn't lynch-mob level racism I'm talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I think Daswig's "sick" baby issue is relevant as well. While the reality is probably more along the lines that the majority of these babies are healthy, the White American perception would be that they are all crack babies... That would certainly smack of prejudice if it were true.

I wonder if a complete barrage of health tests on babies, before they are adopted, would be benefitial or detrimental in the long run?

boatin · 03-01-2005, 08:47 AM

My wife and I adopted from Vietnam. We now know 3 different couples that adopted from the States, that the birth parent(s) 'changed thier mind', and are now in custody battles. One couple is in court this week.

That is purely sad/wrong/insane.

We met the birth mother of our child in Vietnam, and it will be up to our daughter whether she wants to meet/know her birth mother. But there can be no legal challenge by that birth mother to change the adoption.

That was our overriding issue to go out of country.

Also at issue was the cost - our program was cheaper than many we looked at in the States. Another issue was health - not much issue with the health of babies from Vietnam. Great country, great care.

It's a complicated question, with many more factors than I ever would have believed going into it.

Having said all that, racism plays a part for people - no question. We present often at adoption forums to answer questions about adoption, and you wouldn't believe some of the questions/statements that get made. It's clear that some people only want white babies.

BTW: most adoption programs DO run a complete barrage of health tests first, before greenlighting the adoptions. Some countries even stop adoptions in progress if health issues are found - it's not even up to the prospective parents.

KMA-628 · 03-01-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

People are adopting Asian and Russian children because it is trendy. All you have to do is make adopting Black American babies trendy and the problem is solved.

I don't think racism is at the heart of this...

Bingo.

It seems "cool and hip" to go to the east and adopt a baby, almost like a status symbol. Not all the time, but sometimes.

I was among the lucky. I was a blond-haired, blue-eyed little baby boy when I was put up for adoption. Needless to say, I didn't stay on the market for very long.

In terms of the recent problems with mother's wanting their kids back.....I think closed adoptions (i.e. California) are the best bet. For the adoptee, it is tough, because it is virtually impossible to track our birth parents down when we are older, but the chances of a custody battle goes way down.

Personally, I wish adoption was chosen as an option over in-vitro or abortion. There are plenty of children out there that could use a good home. However, adoption within the states is not an inexpensive option.

Regardless of the intent behind the adoption, I support it. For many of these kids it allows for a life they would not have had the opportunity to live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

I wonder if a complete barrage of health tests on babies, before they are adopted, would be benefitial or detrimental in the long run?

No, it wouldn't help. The health of the baby is easy enough to tell, for the most part. It is the little problems that can creep up later in life that are the concern.

That is the problem most of us have, we know our own health, but we don't have the family history to see if there are any potential problems in our future that we need to be concerned about or prepare for (i.e. cancer, diabetes, etc.).

I get asked the "family history" question all of the time. I give the same answer, every time, "I don't have a family history".

It's fine when it just deals with me. The problem comes up when your own children are having a problem and there isn't a medical history to use to help diagnose the problem.

daswig · 03-01-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

I wonder if a complete barrage of health tests on babies, before they are adopted, would be benefitial or detrimental in the long run?

To whom? For the adoptive parents, sure, it would guarantee that they got a healthy baby. For the healthy baby, yup, it'd increase their chance for adoption. For the unhealthy baby, well, it'd just plain suck for them now, wouldn't it...

There are lots of things that can be tested for. But there are lots of things that can't be tested for, and only show up later. Lots of problems are not genetic or even organic, and therefore aren't easily tested for.

boatin · 03-01-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

Bingo.

It seems "cool and hip" to go to the east and adopt a baby, almost like a status symbol. Not all the time, but sometimes.

Sorry. I don't buy this for a second. Asian baby as status symbol? That is among the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

I have met literally (yes, literally) hundreds of prospective parents exploring the options, and the overwhelming vibe is the desire for a child. As I tried to explain above, there are far more reasons/factors to choose a country than most people know. Most people explore over half a dozen adoption agencies, and go with the place (agency/country) that feels the best.

I would be curious what you base you base your opinion on.

maleficent · 03-01-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatin

BTW: most adoption programs DO run a complete barrage of health tests first, before greenlighting the adoptions.

and some of these children get adopted with no problem at all.

A few years back, the sister of a colleague gave birth to a beautiful baby girl. The new mom and dad thought they did everything right during the pregnancy and were completely floored to find out that the child was born with Downs Syndrome. (withholding comments about Mom and Dad) the parents decided that they just couldn't deal with the stresses and all that was associated with no having a perfect child (It still kills me that there are people who think this way) and put the child up for adoption thru a Catholic organization. the child, with all her problems, was adopted out in moments.

Charlatan · 03-01-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatin

Sorry. I don't buy this for a second. Asian baby as status symbol? That is among the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

I have met literally (yes, literally) hundreds of prospective parents exploring the options, and the overwhelming vibe is the desire for a child. As I tried to explain above, there are far more reasons/factors to choose a country than most people know. Most people explore over half a dozen adoption agencies, and go with the place (agency/country) that feels the best.

I would be curious what you base you base your opinion on.

I base it on personal experience... my cousin adopted a chinese baby... I've met some of her friends who did the same... Many, not all, had a very smug, I'm doing the right thing, vibe about them.

boatin · 03-01-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I base it on personal experience... my cousin adopted a chinese baby... I've met some of her friends who did the same... Many, not all, had a very smug, I'm doing the right thing, vibe about them.

Ahhhh. You aren't talking about Asian adoption - you are talking about adoption in general. Well, THAT i'd buy.

That smugness is something that cuts across all adoptive dynamics; foreign/US, healthy/sick, asian/african american/eastern european/etc, infant/older, etc. I've certainly seen it from particpants in every program I've worked with.

For what it's worth, I've always felt that it matches up exactly with the smugness that a percentage of genetic parents have. I think it's just part of the human condition - not a function of adoption. Some people are smug about anything.

NCB · 03-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Perhaps I've missed it but, maybe white parents want to adopt white children or children who's skin color does not contrast with theirs as much as a black child would.

Also, what's at the root of so many black children for adoption? If people are genuinely concerned about reducing the # of black chilren for adoption they would look at these factor. But since it's much easier to blame white parents for being racists for not adopting black chilren, they elect not to examine the root causes.

BTW, if y'all would be honest, you would admit that you would prefer a white or asian child over a black child. And it's not because y'all are racists either.

Charlatan · 03-01-2005, 12:12 PM

NCB... the question asked did not ask us to adress the root causes, so no one has felt the need to do so. Root causes, of a large number of black babies available for adoption is an issue that should be dealt with, if there are more black babies up for adoption than white (or chinese, or whatever). As we don't have the information we can't address it.

For myself, if I had had to adopt, I wouldn't have cared what colour or race my adopted child was... and that is the honest truth.

maximusveritas · 03-01-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

BTW, if y'all would be honest, you would admit that you would prefer a white or asian child over a black child. And it's not because y'all are racists either.

Perhaps you would like to clarify this statement.
Are you assuming we are all white or asian here?
If not, why exactly would we prefer a white or asian child?

NCB · 03-01-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

Perhaps you would like to clarify this statement.
Are you assuming we are all white or asian here?
If not, why exactly would we prefer a white or asian child?

Sorry. Yes, I am directing the question more at the white/Asian members here.

martinguerre · 03-01-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

BTW, if y'all would be honest, you would admit that you would prefer a white or asian child over a black child. And it's not because y'all are racists either.

What? If i would be honest, i would say that it would not matter. And i'm someone who is seriously considering adoption as part of my future as a parent.

I don't appriciate the way you said that at all.

NCB · 03-01-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

What? If i would be honest, i would say that it would not matter. And i'm someone who is seriously considering adoption as part of my future as a parent.

I don't appriciate the way you said that at all.

It wasn't meant to be deragatory (sp?). You haven't adopted yet, but you are considering it. The fact is, at least 9 out of 10 white parents would not opt to adopt a black child when push comes to shove.

Proof? Look at all the foreign adoptions.Tons of them. Look at the interracial adoptions. They're virtually non exisitant. Now, for everyone to say on this board that it wouldn't matter to them and they would adopt a black child all the same is disingenous (sp? sorry).

Now given that, are the people who adopt foreign children racist? Of course not.

maleficent · 03-01-2005, 01:41 PM

Just to make sure that I hadn't imagined it- a quick google turned up this article, regarding a 60 minutes episode:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/l...20050224.shtml
'60 Minutes' wacky piece on black/white adoptions
Larry Elder
February 24, 2005
"60 Minutes" strikes again. Earlier this month, the program broadcast a segment on international, "transracial" (black/white) adoptions involving American-born babies.

It turns out, according to "60 Minutes," a growing number of families living out of the country now adopt American black babies. As for the reason, "60 Minutes" interviewed Walter Gilbert, CEO of The Open Door, a private adoption agency. Gilbert's agency has placed more than 200 American children in British Columbia. Many of these kids are black and are matched with white Canadian parents. Why? "Especially in Canada," Gilbert says, "people are just color-blind.... We would tend to tell them [birth mothers] that our experience has been there's less prejudice. They know what they experience here."

Never mind that our unemployment rate is 5.2 percent versus Canada's 7.0 percent, or the Canadian GDP per capita is $29,700 versus our $37,800. It's better up there.

But wait, the "60 Minutes" piece grew even more baffling. Correspondent Lesley Stahl never even suggested another big reason why adoption agencies might look outside of America for parents to adopt black children. For decades, the National Association of Black Social Workers (NABSW) and others called transracial adoptions "cultural genocide." In 1992, the NABSW issued a paper condemning "transracial" black-white adoptions between Americans, warning against "transculturation . . . when one dominant culture overpowers and forces another culture to accept a foreign form of existence," and stated that "children need to be with those who are most familiar with their culture, heritage and family system." I attempted to determine whether NABSW still maintains its official status against "transracial adoptions," but as of final editing of this article, no one from the organization returned a phone call or e-mail.

Responding to the opposition of organizations like the NABSW, adoption agencies pulled back. After all, who could understand the dramatically different "culture" of blacks better than black social workers?

Finally, in 1994 -- concerned about the alarming number of black children waiting for adoption -- Congress passed the Multiethnic Placement Act, which prohibits delay or denial of any adoption due to the race, color or national origin of the child or adoptive parents. Still, after the Act, the number of transracial adoptions failed to significantly increase. Why? According to the National Adoption Center, government still allows agencies to use variables to calculate "the best interest of the child." For instance, take a 9-year-old black child who has never lived with a white family. An adoption agency could argue that it's not in the "best interest of the child" to be adopted by a white family -- even when a white family wants the child!

"60 Minutes," of course, never dealt with the issue of why so many black children are waiting for adoption. Healthy black babies, like white babies, get adopted quickly. But older black kids in foster care, having been removed from their parents, often encounter greater difficulty in getting adopted. Many parents fear adopting older children since they didn't bond with them when they were young. Others fear some children may have mental or physical problems. But, given the size of the black population, for black families to adopt black children, black families would have to adopt kids at a rate four times faster than the adoption rate of white families.

Is it a healthy thing that Americans feel black children, unwanted by the birth mother, stand to have a better life in "less racist" Canada? Is it a good thing that, given the availability of black children for adoption, black social workers and like-minded whites call black-white adoptions "cultural suicide"?

Why do so many Americans -- including white Americans -- shudder at the obstacle of American racism? Because many American "black leaders" constantly tell us about the severe obstacles faced by blacks growing up in America. Listen to Rep. Mel Watt, D-N.C., chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus. When C-SPAN's Brian Lamb asked what advice he would give to young black men, Watt said, " ...[I]f you're honest with them, you've got to tell them, you've got to work five times as hard as your white counterpart."

Black kids wear T-shirts saying, "You wouldn't understand. It's a black thing." "Black leaders" condemn juries with no blacks as inherently illegitimate if they sit in judgment over black defendants. After all, how can a non-black understand the "black experience"? Small wonder, then, many adoption agencies discourage "transracial" adoptions. After all, haven't "black leaders" and other liberal, guilt-ridden non-blacks emphasized differences? "If you adopt her, how will you be able to comb her hair? How will she know about 'her heritage'?" (Her heritage? Wasn't she born in Detroit?)

Many white American families -- who would likely be thrilled to adopt a black American baby -- now turn to countries like Korea or China to adopt Asian babies and toddlers. Different race, different culture, even a different language -- no problem.

"60 Minutes" neither raised nor answered any of these questions. But maybe things will get better at "60 Minutes" -- once Dan Rather joins them full time.

------------

Interesting perspective...

StephenSa · 03-01-2005, 02:06 PM

If I were to adopt I would prefer to adopt a caucasion child. There. I said it. Is it racist? Maybe. I don't care. If I were to have my own child I would prefer a boy and I'm hoping for blue eyes and blond hair. I have blue eyes and blond hair. I'd like him to have a good sense of humour and be smart and well developed. Some people just have preferences. If this person is to live as my child I would like them to look somewhat like me. I don't want to explain about the adoption to people in the grocery store. I don't want to go throught the whole adoption story when I register him for school or the like. I want to be able to relate to him as closely as possible and if he was another race with white parents he would have issues I never had to face. Heck, I'm lazy. Raising a child is HARD and I have no wish to make it harder. I find it sad so many African American babies go unadopted but it would be wrong for me to adopt a child out of some feeling of social obligation. Is this racist? I don't think so but if it is its a very benign and I think understandable form of racism. Parents see their children as an extension of themselves. A child of another race is harder to place in that role. Adoption is for life and an extremly important responsiblity. I thinks it is understandable that most adoptive parents opt for that which is familiar and closest to their own self image.

daswig · 03-01-2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

The fact is, at least 9 out of 10 white parents would not opt to adopt a black child when push comes to shove.

Proof? Look at all the foreign adoptions.Tons of them. Look at the interracial adoptions. They're virtually non exisitant.

I'd never adopt a black child. Does that make me a racist? I wouldn't think so, because I'd never adopt an asian or a white child either.

Interracial adoption DOES happen. I've got a good friend who is white and recently adopted 4 black kids, all of whom had the same mother. One of her "adoption buddies" recently adopted a mixed race (half white, half black) baby from the Ukraine, of all places. Why did her friend go that route? I dunno, but she did.

retsuki03 · 03-01-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Just to make sure that I hadn't imagined it- a quick google turned up this article, regarding a 60 minutes episode:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/l...20050224.shtml
'60 Minutes' wacky piece on black/white adoptions
Larry Elder
February 24, 2005

Great Article. I love Larry Elder. I wish we got him on the radio here, but the only way I can listen to him is on the internet. He is on right now in LA.

boatin · 03-01-2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Proof? Look at all the foreign adoptions.Tons of them. Look at the interracial adoptions. They're virtually non exisitant. Now, for everyone to say on this board that it wouldn't matter to them and they would adopt a black child all the same is disingenous (sp? sorry).

Minor point: but foreign adoptions are, almost definitionally, interracial. This sense that there are different 'kinds' of interracial is part of the problem, I believe.

It's not a stretch to recognize that people have different ethnicities from each other. But are some more different than others? Why draw that sort of distinction?

Again: my experience is that people decide to have a US or an international adoption. Once that decision is made, others decisions follow. For those that decide to have a US adoption, some care about racial differences, and some don't. Some of the first group are racist, but most (I believe) aren't.

But the important distinction is the 'foreign or US' decision. And that's not often based on the race of the future child.

martinguerre · 03-02-2005, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

It wasn't meant to be deragatory (sp?). You haven't adopted yet, but you are considering it. The fact is, at least 9 out of 10 white parents would not opt to adopt a black child when push comes to shove.

Proof? Look at all the foreign adoptions.Tons of them. Look at the interracial adoptions. They're virtually non exisitant. Now, for everyone to say on this board that it wouldn't matter to them and they would adopt a black child all the same is disingenous (sp? sorry).

Now given that, are the people who adopt foreign children racist? Of course not.

proof? No, not in the least. You're assuming that the TFP is like the rest of the world. First, this is not an american only community. We're international and cosmopolitan in a way that i think is a positive thing. Secondly, we've chosen a home at a community that prides itself on idependant thought, mutual respect, and creativity. We're not an average sample.

go to the current threat on interracial dating (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=84082). someone made a similar statement, saying that the TFP community is bluffing...that if we were being honest, we would express a racial preference in line with the broader community. immediately, counter example after counter example stood up.

so why is it that you assume we're not honest when we say it doesn't matter to us?

Yakk · 03-02-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

To whom? For the adoptive parents, sure, it would guarantee that they got a healthy baby. For the healthy baby, yup, it'd increase their chance for adoption. For the unhealthy baby, well, it'd just plain suck for them now, wouldn't it...

*nod*, but if more parents are scared away by the possibility of adopting an unhealthy baby than the number of unhealthy babies...

Imagine if there are 100 babies up for adoption, and 5 of them are sick with a particular problem.

50 parents are willing to adopt a baby if there is a 5% chance that the baby is sick with that particular problem.

95 parents are willing to adopt a baby if there is a 0% chance that the baby is sick with that particular problem.

In the first case, every baby has a 50% chance of being adopted. In the second case, the non-sick babies have a 100% chance of being adopted, with an overall average rate of 95%.

That, roughly, is a situation that might be described as "better". The sick babies get it worse, sadly.

NCB · 03-02-2005, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

so why is it that you assume we're not honest when we say it doesn't matter to us?

I'm not calling anyone a liars (please do not put words in my mouth. This is a delicate enough topic and no one needs to distort what other people are trying to say), I just said that when push comes to shove, it's human nature to want a child that at least resembles our skin color. Does it mean that people are racist? Of course not.

martinguerre · 03-02-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

I'm not calling anyone a liars (please do not put words in my mouth. This is a delicate enough topic and no one needs to distort what other people are trying to say), I just said that when push comes to shove, it's human nature to want a child that at least resembles our skin color. Does it mean that people are racist? Of course not.

But you are. There are several opinions on this thread that are "it doesn't matter to us."

Your refrain is "it's human nature for it to matter."

See why i'm responding? And frankly, i think it is racist not to be able to overcome some instinct. What is racist if that isn't? The kid doesn't have a "racial idenity," it has a need for a home.

Lebell · 03-02-2005, 04:28 PM

I went 38 years believing I would not have a child.

When I was 39 I remarried and now we are expecting.

Unless you have been in the shoes of a parent you should not judge those so harshly that are.

NCB · 03-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I went 38 years believing I would not have a child.

When I was 39 I remarried and now we are expecting.

Unless you have been in the shoes of a parent you should not judge those so harshly that are.

Not sure if you're refering to me, but I know all about kids. Have three, including twin 4 year old boys who are all boy, all the time.

BTW, congrats!

Lebell · 03-02-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Not sure if you're refering to me, but I know all about kids. Have three, including twin 4 year old boys who are all boy, all the time.

BTW, congrats!

No, I wasn't refering to anyone specifically.

And thanks

03-01-2005, 04:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
doncalypso TFP Mad Scientist Location: Philadelphia, PA	Good article.... very good article. Too many people here on TFP try to act like racism is something in America's dark past and doesn't exist anymore. Glad someone is willing to bring forth some info to prove them wrong. __________________ Doncalypso... the one and only Haitian Sensation

03-01-2005, 05:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	People are adopting Asian and Russian children because it is trendy. All you have to do is make adopting Black American babies trendy and the problem is solved. I don't think racism is at the heart of this... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-01-2005, 06:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I don't think trendy is the real crux of the problem. I have very good friends who adopted two girls from China. They tried for years to adopt an American child - they would have happily taken an African American child, but they had a tough time meeting some qualifications for adoption. ie their age... Adopting outside the US is a lot easier for people who are above a certain age (in the case of my friends, he was 44, she was 42_ they could not adopt in the US even though they own their own home in a lovely community, he's makes an excellent salary, she does not need to work, and they both do some serious volunteer work. It was their ages working against them. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

03-01-2005, 07:36 AM	#14 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Mal... you make a good point about the difficulties of getting children here. I recall friends having this difficulty as well. That said, I don't think there is enough awareness that there are these American children, who happen to be black, to adopt. If as much outcry were raised about these babies being parentless as these is for the babies of China, I think there would be a rapid increase in the number of these babies getting adopted. I think Daswig's "sick" baby issue is relevant as well. While the reality is probably more along the lines that the majority of these babies are healthy, the White American perception would be that they are all crack babies... That would certainly smack of prejudice if it were true. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-01-2005, 12:12 PM	#24 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	NCB... the question asked did not ask us to adress the root causes, so no one has felt the need to do so. Root causes, of a large number of black babies available for adoption is an issue that should be dealt with, if there are more black babies up for adoption than white (or chinese, or whatever). As we don't have the information we can't address it. For myself, if I had had to adopt, I wouldn't have cared what colour or race my adopted child was... and that is the honest truth. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-01-2005, 06:43 AM	#9 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	When a parent says 'I'll take anything but an Africa-American child', it's hard not to call it what it is. Still, I think Daswig is right when he hints that these numbers may be inflated by the number of African-American children who may be unhealthy due to parental drug/alcohol abuse and other factors. And another factor may be that the state or biological parents of some of these black children prefer that the child not go to parents of a different race.

03-01-2005, 08:47 AM	#16 (permalink)
boatin Psycho	My wife and I adopted from Vietnam. We now know 3 different couples that adopted from the States, that the birth parent(s) 'changed thier mind', and are now in custody battles. One couple is in court this week. That is purely sad/wrong/insane. We met the birth mother of our child in Vietnam, and it will be up to our daughter whether she wants to meet/know her birth mother. But there can be no legal challenge by that birth mother to change the adoption. That was our overriding issue to go out of country. Also at issue was the cost - our program was cheaper than many we looked at in the States. Another issue was health - not much issue with the health of babies from Vietnam. Great country, great care. It's a complicated question, with many more factors than I ever would have believed going into it. Having said all that, racism plays a part for people - no question. We present often at adoption forums to answer questions about adoption, and you wouldn't believe some of the questions/statements that get made. It's clear that some people only want white babies. BTW: most adoption programs DO run a complete barrage of health tests first, before greenlighting the adoptions. Some countries even stop adoptions in progress if health issues are found - it's not even up to the prospective parents.

03-01-2005, 11:41 AM	#23 (permalink)
NCB Junkie Location: Tobacco Road	Perhaps I've missed it but, maybe white parents want to adopt white children or children who's skin color does not contrast with theirs as much as a black child would. Also, what's at the root of so many black children for adoption? If people are genuinely concerned about reducing the # of black chilren for adoption they would look at these factor. But since it's much easier to blame white parents for being racists for not adopting black chilren, they elect not to examine the root causes. BTW, if y'all would be honest, you would admit that you would prefer a white or asian child over a black child. And it's not because y'all are racists either.

03-01-2005, 01:41 PM	#29 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Just to make sure that I hadn't imagined it- a quick google turned up this article, regarding a 60 minutes episode: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/l...20050224.shtml '60 Minutes' wacky piece on black/white adoptions Larry Elder February 24, 2005 "60 Minutes" strikes again. Earlier this month, the program broadcast a segment on international, "transracial" (black/white) adoptions involving American-born babies. It turns out, according to "60 Minutes," a growing number of families living out of the country now adopt American black babies. As for the reason, "60 Minutes" interviewed Walter Gilbert, CEO of The Open Door, a private adoption agency. Gilbert's agency has placed more than 200 American children in British Columbia. Many of these kids are black and are matched with white Canadian parents. Why? "Especially in Canada," Gilbert says, "people are just color-blind.... We would tend to tell them [birth mothers] that our experience has been there's less prejudice. They know what they experience here." Never mind that our unemployment rate is 5.2 percent versus Canada's 7.0 percent, or the Canadian GDP per capita is $29,700 versus our $37,800. It's better up there. But wait, the "60 Minutes" piece grew even more baffling. Correspondent Lesley Stahl never even suggested another big reason why adoption agencies might look outside of America for parents to adopt black children. For decades, the National Association of Black Social Workers (NABSW) and others called transracial adoptions "cultural genocide." In 1992, the NABSW issued a paper condemning "transracial" black-white adoptions between Americans, warning against "transculturation . . . when one dominant culture overpowers and forces another culture to accept a foreign form of existence," and stated that "children need to be with those who are most familiar with their culture, heritage and family system." I attempted to determine whether NABSW still maintains its official status against "transracial adoptions," but as of final editing of this article, no one from the organization returned a phone call or e-mail. Responding to the opposition of organizations like the NABSW, adoption agencies pulled back. After all, who could understand the dramatically different "culture" of blacks better than black social workers? Finally, in 1994 -- concerned about the alarming number of black children waiting for adoption -- Congress passed the Multiethnic Placement Act, which prohibits delay or denial of any adoption due to the race, color or national origin of the child or adoptive parents. Still, after the Act, the number of transracial adoptions failed to significantly increase. Why? According to the National Adoption Center, government still allows agencies to use variables to calculate "the best interest of the child." For instance, take a 9-year-old black child who has never lived with a white family. An adoption agency could argue that it's not in the "best interest of the child" to be adopted by a white family -- even when a white family wants the child! "60 Minutes," of course, never dealt with the issue of why so many black children are waiting for adoption. Healthy black babies, like white babies, get adopted quickly. But older black kids in foster care, having been removed from their parents, often encounter greater difficulty in getting adopted. Many parents fear adopting older children since they didn't bond with them when they were young. Others fear some children may have mental or physical problems. But, given the size of the black population, for black families to adopt black children, black families would have to adopt kids at a rate four times faster than the adoption rate of white families. Is it a healthy thing that Americans feel black children, unwanted by the birth mother, stand to have a better life in "less racist" Canada? Is it a good thing that, given the availability of black children for adoption, black social workers and like-minded whites call black-white adoptions "cultural suicide"? Why do so many Americans -- including white Americans -- shudder at the obstacle of American racism? Because many American "black leaders" constantly tell us about the severe obstacles faced by blacks growing up in America. Listen to Rep. Mel Watt, D-N.C., chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus. When C-SPAN's Brian Lamb asked what advice he would give to young black men, Watt said, " ...[I]f you're honest with them, you've got to tell them, you've got to work five times as hard as your white counterpart." Black kids wear T-shirts saying, "You wouldn't understand. It's a black thing." "Black leaders" condemn juries with no blacks as inherently illegitimate if they sit in judgment over black defendants. After all, how can a non-black understand the "black experience"? Small wonder, then, many adoption agencies discourage "transracial" adoptions. After all, haven't "black leaders" and other liberal, guilt-ridden non-blacks emphasized differences? "If you adopt her, how will you be able to comb her hair? How will she know about 'her heritage'?" (Her heritage? Wasn't she born in Detroit?) Many white American families -- who would likely be thrilled to adopt a black American baby -- now turn to countries like Korea or China to adopt Asian babies and toddlers. Different race, different culture, even a different language -- no problem. "60 Minutes" neither raised nor answered any of these questions. But maybe things will get better at "60 Minutes" -- once Dan Rather joins them full time. ------------ Interesting perspective... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

03-01-2005, 02:06 PM	#30 (permalink)
StephenSa Psycho Location: Dallas, Texas	If I were to adopt I would prefer to adopt a caucasion child. There. I said it. Is it racist? Maybe. I don't care. If I were to have my own child I would prefer a boy and I'm hoping for blue eyes and blond hair. I have blue eyes and blond hair. I'd like him to have a good sense of humour and be smart and well developed. Some people just have preferences. If this person is to live as my child I would like them to look somewhat like me. I don't want to explain about the adoption to people in the grocery store. I don't want to go throught the whole adoption story when I register him for school or the like. I want to be able to relate to him as closely as possible and if he was another race with white parents he would have issues I never had to face. Heck, I'm lazy. Raising a child is HARD and I have no wish to make it harder. I find it sad so many African American babies go unadopted but it would be wrong for me to adopt a child out of some feeling of social obligation. Is this racist? I don't think so but if it is its a very benign and I think understandable form of racism. Parents see their children as an extension of themselves. A child of another race is harder to place in that role. Adoption is for life and an extremly important responsiblity. I thinks it is understandable that most adoptive parents opt for that which is familiar and closest to their own self image. __________________ Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

03-02-2005, 04:28 PM	#38 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I went 38 years believing I would not have a child. When I was 39 I remarried and now we are expecting. Unless you have been in the shoes of a parent you should not judge those so harshly that are. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!