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Old 03-20-2005, 09:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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US misleads Allies

I just heard of that and I cannot believe it. Read for yourself first.

Quote:
In an effort to increase pressure on North Korea, the Bush administration told its Asian allies in briefings earlier this year that Pyongyang had exported nuclear material to Libya. That was a significant new charge, the first allegation that North Korea was helping to create a new nuclear weapons state.

But that is not what U.S. intelligence reported, according to two officials with detailed knowledge of the transaction. North Korea, according to the intelligence, had supplied uranium hexafluoride -- which can be enriched to weapons-grade uranium -- to Pakistan. It was Pakistan, a key U.S. ally with its own nuclear arsenal, that sold the material to Libya. The U.S. government had no evidence, the officials said, that North Korea knew of the second transaction.

Pakistan's role as both the buyer and the seller was concealed to cover up the part played by Washington's partner in the hunt for al Qaeda leaders, according to the officials, who discussed the issue on the condition of anonymity. In addition, a North Korea-Pakistan transfer would not have been news to the U.S. allies, which have known of such transfers for years and viewed them as a business matter between sovereign states.
[...]
HERE is the full article.

Either the Bush administration has some serious problem with understanding intelligence briefings or they just do not give a ... about them.
It is unbelievable for me that you intentionally lie to your allies to get support for your actions. Things like that happen in high school but not in world politics! I will not start flaming, but this only supports my point that the current US administration lacks the ability to fulfill the job.
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Old 03-20-2005, 09:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyze
Either the Bush administration has some serious problem with understanding intelligence briefings or they just do not give a ... about them.
It is unbelievable for me that you intentionally lie to your allies to get support for your actions. Things like that happen in high school but not in world politics! I will not start flaming, but this only supports my point that the current US administration lacks the ability to fulfill the job.
I Agree, however i'd prefer not to further comment on the administration cause I can't really judge them being a Canadian Citizen, last time I comment on the American Government, I got into a huge arguement.
The Person I was talking to was a former special forces member, due to an accident on his mission he was left paralyzed from the waist down. This left him collecting some sort of disablility pension that he was suppose to live off of for the rest of his life. Early this year he was forced to move because they cut back on his pension... That wasn't the part that angered me, the part that angered me was that he supported the government after they literally screwed him, thats just the juste of the story, not even the whole thing. But how can you support cutting off the money to the people who have fought for the country..
I dont get it...
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Old 03-20-2005, 09:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyze
but this only supports my point that the current US administration lacks the ability to fulfill the job.
i don't think it's that they don't have the ability, but that they don't care. my perception of how they've run the country for the last four years is that they will do and say whatever is necessary to manipulate people to do what they want.

/no shocked or awed by this.
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Old 03-20-2005, 10:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyze
I just heard of that and I cannot believe it. Read for yourself first.



HERE is the full article.

Either the Bush administration has some serious problem with understanding intelligence briefings or they just do not give a ... about them.
It is unbelievable for me that you intentionally lie to your allies to get support for your actions. Things like that happen in high school but not in world politics! I will not start flaming, but this only supports my point that the current US administration lacks the ability to fulfill the job.
I was hoping there would be a post on this issue, as I had not had the time to make one earlier.

The issue deserves clarifaction. North Korea sold the hexafluoride to Pakistan. That much is correct, and is not in fact illegal, despite what some may argue. It falls under the business of sovereign states. North Korea is not bound by the NPT, as it chose to pull out. Pakistan is a nuclear power, and any such power may purchase supplies as it already possessed the technology. Both are sovereign states and have the right to deal in whatever supplies they wish. That is not debatable, it is inherent in the rights of each nation and formally agreed to in the founding of the United Nations. Our own President at the time was the indivigual who made sure that was part of that body's founding principal, lest it interfere with US business aiding in the rebuilding of Europe after the war.

I just finished Graham Allsion's book "Nuclear Terrorism; The Ultimate Preventable Catastrphe". It is all but required reading for anyone disccusing this subject.
Pulished in 2004, it references this sale multipule times. In his own words, one of Pakistan's scientists had created a "Nuclear Walmart" with parts for sale to the highest bidder. This was not sanctioned by Pakistans Gov, though it has been argued that they where fully aware of it and approved by not stoping it. It was this scientist that then sold the hexafluoride, or more correctly, the centerfugies that can make it out of HEU to Libya. It was also susupected that a small batch of hexafluoride itself was sold.

So what makes this illegal if the sale between N. Korea and Pakistan was not?

It was initiated by an idivigual. Nations can buy and sell the ingrediants for a nuclear device as they see fit. It's their sovereign right to. Indiviguals however, do not have this right. Not even Americans. No one. Only nations may legaly buy and sell this material.
Further, Libya was under UN sanction at the time, prohibiting it from purchasing these materials. When a clear and evident nuclear threat is evident, only the UN as a body may sanction it's member nations. Any nation that attempts sanctions not outlined by the UN is acting as a rouge nation wihout right to do so.
Said sanctions where placed by the UN, only for Libya to disobey by purchasing nuclear materal. Strike one. Then it was learned they purchased the plans to make the machinery to creat more. Strike two. Then it was discovered they purchased it from an indivigual who had no right to sell such material or plans. Strike three.

The scientist in Pakistan was jailed, but then freed to prevent a riot after only a few months. As the creator of Pakistans bomb, he is reveired as a hero there, and several political factions began to threaten the last threads of peace in that nation if he was not freed. He was pardoned by the PM of Pakistan, but remains confined to the country and connot leave. Ever. Hardly re-assuring when he could just email the plans to the highest bidder.

Now why did US intel leave this out?

Simply, It doesn't fit with the current administrations needs. They need to ignore Pakistans allowing of this transgression in exchange for their support. The Pakistand PM is on a tightrope in his country, and there are many who wish him dead. Bringing attention on this failure will elicit two reactions there.
1. A god portion of the population will capitalize on the increased attention and attempt to seize power under the idea that the US is sticking it's nose into Pakistan business. They may very well succeed to.
2. Possible sanctions against Pakistan that will only inflame the above.

None of this excuses lying. And the President did lie. He has to depend on his staff to fact check, but the buck stops at him. His failure to respond to this revelation is passing the buck.

This is inexcusable, and only serves to prove to ther countries that our Intel cannot be trusted.
As Allison himself point out, our Intel failures, deliberate and screw up alike, have made us the boy who creid wolf to the industrial world.
During the Cuban missle crisis, the secretary of state met with the PM of France. When the secratary asked the PM if he would like to see the satilite photo's of the nuclear weapons, the PM raised his hand and stated "I know Mr. Kennedy, he is an honest and good man. I do not need to see the photo's".

This would not happen now, with any nation to whom we present something.
Increasingly I worry that such honesty and prestige will never be on our side again.
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Last edited by arch13; 03-20-2005 at 10:16 PM..
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Old 03-21-2005, 01:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That was a very detailed comment arch13 and I enjoyed reading it.
But - no criticism, I myself am a pretty bad typewriter - seems like you don't like the individual :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arch13
Our own President at the time was the indivigual who made sure [...]

It was initiated by an idivigual. [...]

Indiviguals however, [...]

Then it was discovered they purchased it from an indivigual who had [...]
Anyways, strange that this did not catch more attention. The article was originally posted in the Washington Post and I found the reference in DER SPIEGEL. I searched for it, but CNN and FOXNEWS took it already off their websites or never listed it and WP articles are only public for one day.
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyze
It is unbelievable for me that you intentionally lie to your allies to get support for your actions. Things like that happen in high school but not in world politics!
Think of the Iraq war, weapons of mass destruction, Jeff Gannon, Iraqui prisoner abuse, etc. Any party in power does it, but Bush II has set a new standard.

Did anyone see The Daily Show last week, with the section "George Bush Has Huge Balls!"? It was about the brazen misleading of America that the Bush administration has polished to an artform. Bill Mahr also talked about how any war has to be hyped to get it started, but that Bush just doesn't stop lying about what we are doing internationally and why. I'll look for links for transcripts.
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Old 03-21-2005, 03:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Children try out how far they can go with their lies in order to get something or to avoid punishment...
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Old 03-23-2005, 01:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It's funny how this very serious action has far less notice in the media, and even here on the TFP than the case of a Comatose woman.

In an instance where a government official has lied to our allies, eroding our credibility, and accusing a know hostile state of an action they did not in fact commite, we are more focused on a media circus.

As another thread pointed out, what will be more important in hindsite?
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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WHAT? The Bush admin. lying? Shocking!
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