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Old 03-26-2005, 11:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Political Bake Sale

Offended students find GOP bake sale tasteless
Friday, March 25, 2005
By Jennifer Ackerman-Haywood and Barton Deiters
The Grand Rapids Press

ALLENDALE --A white guy could buy a cupcake for $2 from the College Republicans' bake sale this week at Grand Valley State University. But prices dropped dramatically for other customers, based on race and gender.

The student group was willing to let the sweet treats go for 75 cents to blacks and white women, while it charged Asians and Hispanics 50 cents. The price for American Indians? Just a nickel.

The point, said organizer Kyle Rausch, was to challenge affirmative action policies that give preference to women and minori

If the goal was to draw attention rather than sell cupcakes, it worked. Rausch and his group sold only one cupcake and now could face disciplinary action for the stunt.

"The idea was to bring controversy," Rausch said, adding: "We were not in any way trying to mock affirmative action. If people walked by and were offended, that was not our intention."

So far, four students have filed complaints with GVSU's Student Life Office, and a misconduct review process is under way. Several people denounced the sale during a Student Senate meeting Thursday in Grand Rapids.

The university's student code states "Every aspect of University life should be free from discrimination ..."

If a nine-member review board of staff and students determines the College Republicans crossed the line, the group could be suspended and lose university funding and the privilege to meet on campus. It received $1,625 in university funds this year.

"You can have a discussion and bring awareness, but you can't go out and discriminate to make that happen," said Bob Stoll, director of Student Life. "They had poor judgment."

Several black students have demanded an apology, but Rausch said he doesn't intend to offer one, and that he'd do it the same way if he had it to do over again.

"It's nice that it can stimulate discussion," he said.

Similar sales have occurred on college campuses throughout the country, with administrators' responses ranging from eye-rolling disregard to official censure.

Student Kim Pierson said the issue is not affirmative action, but the fact that the College Republicans "crossed a bold line" that subjected students to blatant discrimination.

The Republicans had university permission to set up a table and sell baked goods as a group fund-raiser in the Kirkhof Center on the Allendale campus Monday. However, Stoll said the university did not approve the way the students went about the sale.

"To do something this offensive is not appropriate," Stoll said.

Ashley Chaney, a Grand Rapids junior and editor of Stand UP!, a campus newsletter serving black students, said the bake sale was offensive.

"If you're against affirmative action, that's fine, but you need to be respectful of other people," Chaney said.

Rausch said the sale was a form of free speech.

"It's an academic forum, and the university is going to try to stifle that," Rausch said. "If it's OK to get a cheaper education from a taxpayer subsidy, why isn't it OK to get cheaper food?"

This is not the first time the College Republicans have sparked a campus controversy. Last year, the group sponsored a campus talk by rocker Ted Nugent that offended some people.

Greg Paulsen, executive director of the College Democrats, said Rausch's actions were a cheap stunt that does nothing to foster debate.

"This is not leadership. It's attention-getting," Paulsen said,

Grand Valley administrators have made efforts to boost minority recruitment, but say they do not give admission preference based on race. All students must be academically qualified.

"Race is never a deciding factor," said Jodi Chycinski, GVSU's director of admissions.
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Old 03-26-2005, 01:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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hahahah
this was a plot on boston public..

as for my thoughts on the issue, ....affirmative action is a complicated issue that demands more study. I can actually understand the republican group's point of view, but most of the time, AA is not based solely on race.

Now, if they had a bake sale with a graduated price list that depended on your annual income.....
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Old 03-26-2005, 01:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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People should take heed of the lesson the mainstream media learned about small scale protests a long time ago: If you don't pay attention to them, it is as if they never happened.

That is to say, if someone is going out of their way to get attention by means of creating controversy, you are only doing them a favor by getting offended. Especially in instances where the protesters don't pose any kind of threat to anything and aren't doing anything particularly interesting.
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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"You can have a discussion and bring awareness, but you can't go out and discriminate to make that happen," said Bob Stoll, director of Student Life. "They had poor judgment."

Student Kim Pierson said the issue is not affirmative action, but the fact that the College Republicans "crossed a bold line" that subjected students to blatant discrimination.

"To do something this offensive is not appropriate," Stoll said.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome to Bizarro World where it's only ok to discriminate against people if they are white and white people get in trouble for pointing the fact out.
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Old 03-26-2005, 04:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Welcome to Bizarro World where it's only ok to discriminate against people if they are white and white people get in trouble for pointing the fact out.
because attempts at leveling the playing field are just sooooo discriminatory to whites!

can't let those minorities catch up!

/sarcasm
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ha, ha. For a minute there I thought "political bake sale" meant that the government had to hold a bake sale to raise funds for all their pet projects.

Oh well.....
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I can actually understand the republican group's point of view, but most of the time, AA is not based solely on race.
Really? I have not seen any college or job applications where it asks for parent income levels to ensure that in a tie, the poorer one who probably overcame much more would win... though I DO always see that for race.

Quote:
because attempts at leveling the playing field are just sooooo discriminatory to whites!

can't let those minorities catch up!

/sarcasm
Because having a level playing field is SOOOO against what MLK's words warned against "I dream of a day when my children and grandchildren will be judged not on the color of their skin but on the content of their character..." God forbid people are just that, judged on the content of their character, that's discrimination!
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've got no objections to a level playing field, but what the hell happened to EQUAL rights? Just because I'm white doesn't mean that I didn't have my own hurdles and problems to overcome, including poverty, an abusive father, and so on. Affirmative Action is a very noble idea, however considering that by it's very premise it encourages the type of discrimination that it was supposed to elminate. AA and EOE would be wonderful IF they worked, but for every person that legitimately uses there capabilities there are several others that use the loopholes in the system to obtain rights and privledges that they don't deserve.
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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They should open up a loan office and then when they give out loans, they could deny loans arbitrarily based on their client's racial composition. Wouldn't that be a real laugher? They could even give out loans to minorities too, but give them a higher interest rate. That'd be real swell. Oh wait.
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannukah harry
because attempts at leveling the playing field are just sooooo discriminatory to whites!

can't let those minorities catch up!

/sarcasm
Pardon me, but I never owned slaves and my own grandparents were discriminated against repeatedly for being Italian immigrants.

So when do I get mine?
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
They should open up a loan office and then when they give out loans, they could deny loans arbitrarily based on their client's racial composition. Wouldn't that be a real laugher? They could even give out loans to minorities too, but give them a higher interest rate. That'd be real swell. Oh wait.

It's nice at least that you implicitly admit it's reverse discrimination, but again, how does it "level" the playing field?
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Pardon me, but I never owned slaves and my own grandparents were discriminated against repeatedly for being Italian immigrants.

So when do I get mine?

Perhaps when you experience discrimination based on your heritage on a relatively regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
It's nice at least that you implicitly admit it's reverse discrimination, but again, how does it "level" the playing field?
Perhaps it doesn't level it, perhaps it makes it crooked for everyone, which results in a more metaphorical leveling.
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Pardon me, but I never owned slaves and my own grandparents were discriminated against repeatedly for being Italian immigrants.

So when do I get mine?
you don't. this isn't about reperations. this is about modern society. and like it or not, programs like this are needed to keep the 'man' from keeping the 'brotha man' too far down.

because you are white, you have inherent privilages and advantages that minorities don't. and it's not because you work harder than them, it's purely based on race. until things like race don't matter and people are judged purely on their merits, it's necessary to have programs like AA to level the field, so that it isn't tilted so far towards us whites that we're back in the 50's.
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Perhaps when you experience discrimination based on your heritage on a relatively regular basis.
I've experienced more discrimination when I was growing up working class (and believe it or not, the Army was the worst) than I do now, and my skin color or my name hasn't changed one bit. These days, I believe it's more classism than racism. Could I get into the local country club? Probably not, but I'm not going to scream discrimination.
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Perhaps when you experience discrimination based on your heritage on a relatively regular basis.
Whoot! I finally get aided by AA! Because I HAVE been turned down jobs because I was white in a Mexican heavy town. I HAVE been denied shopping at shops and eating in restaurants cause I am white. But wait... I'm white... no one cares.

Quote:
because you are white, you have inherent privilages and advantages that minorities don't. and it's not because you work harder than them, it's purely based on race. until things like race don't matter and people are judged purely on their merits, it's necessary to have programs like AA to level the field, so that it isn't tilted so far towards us whites that we're back in the 50's.
So you disagree with Lincoln when he said you can't build one man up by tearing another man down? How about at least telling me, with a history of being overtly discriminated against, how I have inherant privlages and advantages by being white? How about when a friend of mine (who happened to be of Mexican descent), who made worse grades than me, was involved in less extra-curricular activities, held down no job in HS, and family had almost double our income with only one child got a full ride... and I had to join the military to pay for college (we applied to the exact same scholarships, I applied for many more to boot).

Man being white makes things so easy!
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCB
I've experienced more discrimination when I was growing up working class (and believe it or not, the Army was the worst) than I do now, and my skin color or my name hasn't changed one bit. These days, I believe it's more classism than racism. Could I get into the local country club? Probably not, but I'm not going to scream discrimination.
But that is discrimination. Just because you don't want to say anything about it doesn't make it inherently wrong for someone else to want to do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Whoot! I finally get aided by AA! Because I HAVE been turned down jobs because I was white in a Mexican heavy town. I HAVE been denied shopping at shops and eating in restaurants cause I am white. But wait... I'm white... no one cares.



So you disagree with Lincoln when he said you can't build one man up by tearing another man down? How about at least telling me, with a history of being overtly discriminated against, how I have inherant privlages and advantages by being white? How about when a friend of mine (who happened to be of Mexican descent), who made worse grades than me, was involved in less extra-curricular activities, held down no job in HS, and family had almost double our income with only one child got a full ride... and I had to join the military to pay for college (we applied to the exact same scholarships, I applied for many more to boot).

Man being white makes things so easy!
You may experience discrimination here or there, but have you ever been:

pulled over for being white?
been followed aroud a department store because you were white?
been denied a loan because you were white?
been given a loan with a higher interest rate because you were white?

Being white doesn't make everything easy, it just makes many things easier.

Last edited by filtherton; 03-26-2005 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCB
I've experienced more discrimination when I was growing up working class (and believe it or not, the Army was the worst) than I do now, and my skin color or my name hasn't changed one bit. These days, I believe it's more classism than racism. Could I get into the local country club? Probably not, but I'm not going to scream discrimination.
and how were you discriminated against? while i agree classism exists (and i think that's probably as much as a problem as racism, and that the two intertwine), i wouldn't call not being able to join the local country club classism. if it's a private club and you can't afford it and they don't like you (reasons don't matter if it's a private club), then find a different club. but then again, i kinda agree with what marx said... 'i don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.'


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Because I HAVE been turned down jobs because I was white in a Mexican heavy town. I HAVE been denied shopping at shops and eating in restaurants cause I am white. But wait... I'm white... no one cares.
and why should they care? you don't seem to have made it an issue. how can people care about some one being discriminated against if said person doesn't seem to care enough himself to bring it to the public's attention?


Quote:
Originally Posted by seaver
So you disagree with Lincoln when he said you can't build one man up by tearing another man down? How about at least telling me, with a history of being overtly discriminated against, how I have inherant privlages and advantages by being white? How about when a friend of mine (who happened to be of Mexican descent), who made worse grades than me, was involved in less extra-curricular activities, held down no job in HS, and family had almost double our income with only one child got a full ride... and I had to join the military to pay for college (we applied to the exact same scholarships, I applied for many more to boot).

Man being white makes things so easy!
and how is AA tearing you or anyone else down? how are you being overtly discriminated against, and how is AA the culprit? how did your friend get the full ride when you didn't? i have no idea. why don't you ask the people who felt that he was more worthy of a scholorship and financial aid than you. the reason my be AA, or it may be something else entirely. maybe he wrote a much better essay for the scholorship than you? i wasn't there, so i can't tell you.

but if you want to know what white privildge is, and how you have it, do a google search. i'll see if i can find anything succinct enough to make a post out of, maybe even a new thread, but i don't have the time right now (working on a paper for class). but this might be a good place for you to start: http://www.whiteprivilege.com/

oh, and just not every white person gets the benefits of all of the white privelidges. some do, some don't, but all have more of them than a non-white. you're socio-economic status will affect some of them i'm sure. a poor white person is worse off than a rich white person, but still better of than a poor black person (and possibly an upper-middle class black person) in how society treats them.


word, filtherton, word.
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lebell
Pardon me, but I never owned slaves and my own grandparents were discriminated against repeatedly for being Italian immigrants.

So when do I get mine?
Aaah! Same here. My great-great grandfather changed his name from "Grazelli" to "Welt" when that was happening to him in York, Pa. My area is predominantly of German Descent so the change to something German was an asset for him.

I always hated that my family name is lost to me because of that. I've toyed around with getting it changed back.
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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sorry, missed these posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Because having a level playing field is SOOOO against what MLK's words warned against "I dream of a day when my children and grandchildren will be judged not on the color of their skin but on the content of their character..." God forbid people are just that, judged on the content of their character, that's discrimination!
the problem is is that without these laws, people will be judged based on the color of thier skin instead of the content of their character. do you really think that a black kid from detroit is gonna be judged the same as a white kid from oakland county? no, they won't. they live within 20 miles of each other, but their lives are going to be completely different, might as well be different countries. if the only way to give the black kid the same opportunites in education is give them a boost when applying for college, that's fine with me. because when he gets an education and hopefully passes on the importance of that education to his kids, and so on, one day AA won't be necessary. but right now, taht isn't the case.

now, EOE laws i'm torn on. i don't think any kind of quota's are right (which i do understand exist, if not as an unspoken rule, at least for govt. jobs). but hiring should be purely on merit. and if minorities are getting the same educational opportunites as white people, when it comes time for a job, having a law that says you have to base yoru hiring on merit and not color (ie. can't discriminate) puts the minorities on a level playing field with whites.


Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidlight
I've got no objections to a level playing field, but what the hell happened to EQUAL rights? Just because I'm white doesn't mean that I didn't have my own hurdles and problems to overcome, including poverty, an abusive father, and so on. Affirmative Action is a very noble idea, however considering that by it's very premise it encourages the type of discrimination that it was supposed to elminate. AA and EOE would be wonderful IF they worked, but for every person that legitimately uses there capabilities there are several others that use the loopholes in the system to obtain rights and privledges that they don't deserve.

i personally think socio-economic status should be included in AA, possibly even take priority over race and gender. if you had those obsticles, than you happen to be someone who does get screwed by the system, and you have my sympathy. minorities in your same situation are getting an advantage over you, and that sucks, but unfortunatly, i think the benefit that AA has on for society is more important than the fewthat it doesn't benefit but are in a similar situation to many of those it does.
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Something is required to legislate against the reality of racism + sexism. As NCB would say: I didn't hear alot of solutions or suggestions in this thread. Just complaints.

As I posted a couple of months ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
It's unforuntate that something as simple as AA can be dismantled, reverse engineered, analyzed and critiqued to such degree and with such troubling results.

AA is really simple.

Think of it this way. When your car needs an alignment or the steering column is otherwise broken, it can drift in one direction. To compensate and ensure the car travels along a straight line, you must counter the drift by steering in the opposite direction of the drift. This tactic successfully negates the drifting, producing the desired result: a straight line. That it requires compensation to produce what is, under ideal mechanics, the desired result, is simply a matter of life - if your car drifts, you must compensate the steering.

That is AA, right there. Society is racist and gender discriminatory. AA is a means of compensation to artificially produce the desired, ideal, result: parity between races and sexes. You might argue that society is not racist and therefore does not require an artificial method of stabalization, but if you made that argument you would simply be wrong: there is empirical evidence that society is discriminatory. As such, there are really two options: AA or Something Else. If you have an idea of what this Something Else is that can steer society back on course, by all means share it. If you have no idea what Something Else might be, you really need to accept AA and the faults that it includes by nature.

Of particular absurdity is this concept that AA itself is harmful to the very people it has been put in place to protect. Smooth addressed this issue best: any harm that you perceive towards someone who could have or has benefitted from AA is simply an aspect of your own mind, not an inherent attribute of AA itself. Since that is the case, it can be dismissed as the imaginary problem that it is.

And lastly, to those that claim AA is, itself, discriminatory - yes indeed it is. That is the counter steering affect you perceive. Of course AA is not what anyone could call a perfect solution. Rather, AA is the necessary reaction to discrmination. If you have the perfect solution, or even just a better reaction to discrmination, by all means let us know. But assuredly, you are entirely incorrect to claim that there is either no need for a reaction or that there simply is no discrimination. Racism exists, ignoring it will not make it go away and doing nothing about the consequences of it is to accept it and encourage it (if you never counter steered your car, you would eventually turn around, never getting where you want to go).

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Old 03-26-2005, 10:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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the AA stuff has been hashed out in lots of other threads...

so, in a direct response to this one, i think this was a great idea. AA proponents of AA seldom have to confront the absurdity of their principles in such a practical way.
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Old 03-27-2005, 12:12 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by irateplatypus
the AA stuff has been hashed out in lots of other threads...

so, in a direct response to this one, i think this was a great idea. AA proponents of AA seldom have to confront the absurdity of their principles in such a practical way.

yeah, because after all, the prices of the baked good accurately portrays how AA and how much of an advantage minorities have.

after all, it's not like the black or latino person have the same amount of money as the white person. nothing says fairness like a white man with a good job and education (more often that not available to them because their parents have money and they went to a better school than most minority students) compared to a black person who, if he graduated, graduated from an underfuneded, crowded school system where the educatoin was sub-par and is lucky to manage to get into college and be able to pay for it (after all, he's lucky to get paid much more than minimum wage).

yep, AA looks pretty absurd when you think about it.
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Old 03-27-2005, 01:03 AM   #24 (permalink)
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so, in a direct response to this one, i think this was a great idea. AA proponents of AA seldom have to confront the absurdity of their principles in such a practical way.
I can't imagine how you could perceive this as a practical way of demonstrating anything, other than possibly your desire to have it mean something.

What we have here is a bake sale with pricing based on race. A normal bake sale does not base its pricing on race, at least to any degree of impact that would necessitate significant reaction. If there were a recognized proclivity of bake sales providing better service to white people, then a bake sale that intentionally benefitted minorities would be necessary. But bake sales are hardly areas of much social concern of influence.

Maybe if there were no negative effects of racism in hiring and schooling practices (as limited examples), this bake sale analogy would aptly define AA. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world. So instead this bake sale is nothing but a sign of ignorance.
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Old 03-27-2005, 07:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Think of it this way. When your car needs an alignment or the steering column is otherwise broken, it can drift in one direction. To compensate and ensure the car travels along a straight line, you must counter the drift by steering in the opposite direction of the drift. This tactic successfully negates the drifting, producing the desired result: a straight line. That it requires compensation to produce what is, under ideal mechanics, the desired result, is simply a matter of life - if your car drifts, you must compensate the steering.
Except that instead of steering a car, you are talking about discriminating against people instead of fixing the problem.

Again, I'm glad that you all are admiting it's reverse discrimination is good.

That you find discrimination of any kind justifiable is horrifying.
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Old 03-27-2005, 08:44 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannukah harry
and how were you discriminated against? while i agree classism exists (and i think that's probably as much as a problem as racism, and that the two intertwine), i wouldn't call not being able to join the local country club classism. if it's a private club and you can't afford it and they don't like you (reasons don't matter if it's a private club), then find a different club. but then again, i kinda agree with what marx said... 'i don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.

As a child, most of the times it was passive. A good example would be when my parents were ready to by a home.

Despite my parents desires to live in a better neighborhood with a better school system, they never seemed to be able to land a house there. We instead settled in a nice home in a predominately minority neighborhood. Why? It wasn;t the money; my father was an established contractor by then. Could it have been the tone of my father's skin? Unlike my Cuban mother, my Mexican dad has fairly dark skin. In other words, we were probably steered.

There's more, but this kind of gives you a good idea what I"m talking about.
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Old 03-27-2005, 08:59 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Except that instead of steering a car, you are talking about discriminating against people instead of fixing the problem.

Again, I'm glad that you all are admiting it's reverse discrimination is good.

That you find discrimination of any kind justifiable is horrifying.
It's an analogy. But as I said in that thread, if you have a better solution, let's hear it. The fact is that AA corrects a flaw. That it does not do so perfectly is not a good enough reason to oppose it. AA is better than no AA.
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Old 03-27-2005, 10:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
Except that instead of steering a car, you are talking about discriminating against people instead of fixing the problem.

Again, I'm glad that you all are admiting it's reverse discrimination is good.

That you find discrimination of any kind justifiable is horrifying.
I don't think reverse discrimination is good, it just happens to make things more equal.
If you think reverse discrimination is bad, try living with real head on discrmination. Then tell how hard you have it.
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Old 03-27-2005, 10:28 AM   #29 (permalink)
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and how were you discriminated against? while i agree classism exists (and i think that's probably as much as a problem as racism, and that the two intertwine), i wouldn't call not being able to join the local country club classism. if it's a private club and you can't afford it and they don't like you (reasons don't matter if it's a private club), then find a different club. but then again, i kinda agree with what marx said... 'i don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.'
Ooooh, I get it. White = Rich.

I see now... god forbid a white (which you immediately make him) rich boy be denied a job.

Quote:
the problem is is that without these laws, people will be judged based on the color of thier skin instead of the content of their character. do you really think that a black kid from detroit is gonna be judged the same as a white kid from oakland county? no, they won't. they live within 20 miles of each other, but their lives are going to be completely different, might as well be different countries. if the only way to give the black kid the same opportunites in education is give them a boost when applying for college, that's fine with me. because when he gets an education and hopefully passes on the importance of that education to his kids, and so on, one day AA won't be necessary. but right now, taht isn't the case.
1. Yes, I belive that without AA most people will be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin. I personally believe AA makes things worse because anyone with half a brain can see that it is government sponsored racism.
2. Yes, they probably would be judged differently if they live in Oakland as opposed to Detroit. That's why preference should be given based on socio-economic reasons. You know, that way it IS a hand up to those who are born without much, and it's not based on skin color.
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Old 03-27-2005, 12:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Seaver
if they live in Oakland as opposed to Detroit. That's why preference should be given based on socio-economic reasons. You know, that way it IS a hand up to those who are born without much, and it's not based on skin color.

I don't understand why you would propose this if you are opposed to "government sponsored discrimination."
I think you are finding some portion of an argument that you think is unanswerable and present it as your position. It doesn't seem heartfelt, but more that you think this will finally "get" the other people you're debating against. I see this behavior a lot in these threads, but maybe you aren't doing it here and I misread your intent. If so, then please explain how this doesn't contradict your own logic outlined earlier that you are opposed to discrimination of any form.

Why would doing anything by class change anything in practice anyway? Do you believe that racial minorities, who fill the ranks of the underclass while still admitting that whites, simply as a function of there being so many, have a hell of a lot of poor people too, won't still be obtaining benefits from such a newly worked system?

My personal belief is that a number of people in this thread don't have any direct knowledge of how affirmative action programs actually work. I saw one person complain that class isn't tapped on college and job apps--well it is. It's not a matter of opinion, that statement is just plain incorrect factually and anyone can go look at a college application to check the accuracy of what I just said. Parent's income is central to the government loan system, as well. You can look at that online by going to fafsa.ed.gov.

I haven't worked at Taco Bell for a long time, but I don't remember my race being asked on the application. That would be strange since it's illegal to discriminate based on race in hiring practices. But maybe it is there and Taco Bell really cares about how many black in proportion to white registers they have.

Perhaps you are referring to a career choice. The kind where you actually make a living and have to write a resume for. I have never put my race on my resume. I suppose that people could look at my last name and try and deduce what my race is--people who do that are often surprised since my dark skin tone doesn't match the last name my father gave me. Class discrimination likely occurs when the hiring personnel look at where you've been and who you know. Various research has found that racial discrimination occurs at the first level, as in obvious minority names aren't likely to make it to the face-to-face interview process, and then the next level, when the interviewer looks you in the face.

Directly contradicting much of what you imply, that racial minorities are outstripping poor people or other poor white people to be more precise, is the fact that the single largest group benefitting from affirmative action is upwardly mobile, white women. I have a hunch that everyone in this thread is a male. You're more likely to have lost "your slot" (your presumption of entitlement to being hired speaks to the power of belief of white priviledge that harry brough up) to a woman than a black or hispanic person. Much more likely.

I'll repeat a comment one of my white friends said to me and our professor in our minority studies course a long time ago: yeah, I've been descriminated against, but I figured what the hell, I can just go down the road and apply over there. I have and continue to have more life chances than that person will ever have, even with the benefit of affirmative action. It's a small price to pay, in my mind.

Well, the price hasn't been very small for me to pay because I fall in that not quite anything category when it comes to benefits and also, I think many of you working class people will feel this, not quite poor enough to qualify but too poor to pay category. But to say that income/wealth isn't figured is not accurate as many people who are poor and recieve benefits (or at least the opportunity to try: lunches, fee waivers, application reductions, & etc.) know to be the case.
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Old 03-27-2005, 01:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
It's an analogy. But as I said in that thread, if you have a better solution, let's hear it. The fact is that AA corrects a flaw. That it does not do so perfectly is not a good enough reason to oppose it. AA is better than no AA.
Discriminating against one group because another is discriminated against does not correct a flaw...it perpetuates it.

Discriminatory practices need to continue to be outlawed. If there are suspected cases such as banks refusing to do business with minorities because they are minorities, there should be hefty fines as well as court mandated plans to adress the issue. Audits of such institutions should be done to verify compliance.

Admissions to Universities and job hiring for jobs should be done based on ability. To increase the number of minorities applying for such jobs (and to increase the likelyhood of them being hired on ability), we need to address the basic reason they are failing: lack of education due to poor schools and lack of cultural values.

Make dispersions of school budgets statewide, instead of district wide to eliminate rich vs poor districts. Increase adminstrator and teacher's authority to deal with trouble makers and expect more from students instead of mediocre work. Pass laws that make parents responsible for their children's attendence. Add basic citizenship and etiquette classes to the curriculum and start teaching them when they are YOUNG.

Legalize certain drugs, like marijuana, to start to break up the drug gangs. Then allow the national guard to go into the ghetto's of LA, Chicago, Detroit, etc. and go through the crack houses to arrest the gang members and PUT THE AWAY FOR LIFE.

You asked me for my solution, so there's a start.
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Old 03-27-2005, 02:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
I don't understand why you would propose this if you are opposed to "government sponsored discrimination."
I think you are finding some portion of an argument that you think is unanswerable and present it as your position. It doesn't seem heartfelt, but more that you think this will finally "get" the other people you're debating against. I see this behavior a lot in these threads, but maybe you aren't doing it here and I misread your intent. If so, then please explain how this doesn't contradict your own logic outlined earlier that you are opposed to discrimination of any form.
I'm sorry, but the idea of AA is to give those that have been held down a hand up. Unfortunately it doesnt take into account those who's families HAVE climed up themselves, since it's based purely on race. I'm not contradicting myself, I believe that the idea of a hand-up is great, and sorely needed. Others here are contradicting themselves in saying that to fight racism, only racism will work. You can claim I'm only showboating on my beliefs and they're not "heartfelt" but that's because no one can refute that AA is racist.

Here's my logic in it's simplest form.

Racism = Bad
Helping poor families get an education and better jobs = Good
Using Racism to help only a select few = Bad
Using economic factors to decide those that need help = Good
Using Racism to beat Racism = Eating more food in hopes of losing weight
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Old 03-27-2005, 04:12 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Unfortunately it doesnt take into account those who's families HAVE climed up themselves, since it's based purely on race...no one can refute that AA is racist.

I wrote several paragraphs pointing out that you have the facts wrong.

Affirmative action programs take into account a myriad of factors, one of them being race.
When was the last time you applied to college? Perhaps application forms have changed.
If you are referring to private scholarships and funds, your issue is with the selection comittee, not the government sponsored affirmative action programs. If you are pissed that Ford Foundation carves out special niches for disadvantaged minorities, you need to contact the Foundation not whine about affirmative action.

Your facts are wrong.

The single largest group of beneficiaries of affirmative action are white women.
Now, we should expect to see groups facing multiple marginality obtain the most results. That is, black women or even homosexual, black women. Or hispanic women. Or homosexual hispanic women.
Or an impoverished, homosexual, black women.
Such a woman would seem toexperience discrimination from every aspect of her identity.
But such groups don't benefit the most. The group benefitting the most is upwardly mobile, white women. That is, a group that falls very squarely in what the US is willing to accept as a desirable minority. One that is recognized and allowed past the gates of discrimination. Even saying that, however, one needs to take into account that a woman earn, on average, nearly 3/4ths of a man's lifetime earnings.

Your facts regarding affirmative action are wrong.

I hope I typed it enough times for you to do some research on your own.
You missed the point that your facts are wrong when I put a bunch of content around that statement before. I realize now I should have made it more clear, because you followed my post with a reiteration of your inaccurate assumptions about how affirmative actions programs operate.

What does all this mean to me?
It indicates that even with affirmative action programs, people are able to fill positions with more desirable minorities than undesirable ones. Evidence like that indicates that if programs were to shift to impoverishment as a sole basis for preference, I would expect to see a rise in and preference for white males over white females, white males over black males, white males over any other category as long as they were justifiably poor enough. Even if anything else isn't quite clear, certain political groups claim that opportunity abounds all around the United States. If any group has the ability to avail itself of such opportunity, it would be white males. I suggest they do so.


Or we could get angsty about the situation and I'm sure host can pop in here and post a novella on white affirmative action. I don't see anyone railing against those programs.

I've seen threads on them in the past, but no outcry from the same groups. Subsidies, pharma handouts, legacy admissions, congress mobalizing overnight over the plight of one white woman dying in a hospice (vs. 10 people gunned down on an Indian Reservation). The (white) government's response? Vastly different--right up to the president. One person even pointed out that indians only want sovereignty when it suits them. I didn't bother to respond because the proposition was so outlandish.

When it suits them? Please, if only affirmative action worked on white childrens' history lessons.
Actually, come to think of it, it does. Read Lies My Teach Told Me by Dr. James Loewen for more info on that matter.
Minorities are not running this country's economic, political, or cultural axes (well, cultural is becoming problematic to white suburbia).

Hmm, a very complex situation indeed. Indeedy deed. I must confess.
If hispanics have become the majority in some regions and are discrimination against white fokes, well, pardon if I don't shed a tear for their "plight."

And yeah, I familiar with the italian, irish, and german "niggers" as they were once called.
I also know their responses--affirmative action. That's an apt term for the ability to call Uncle Pete when you want a job at the firehouse or precinct.

White groups have had a pretty good run in this country, going strong on 200 years is a pretty good headstart in the "equal" economic footrace in the U.S.

I can recognize this, it hurts to become a minority and become discriminated against so I don't hold it too strongly against white males when they moan.
In return, it behooves white males to recognize this: they are just joining the club.
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Old 03-27-2005, 09:10 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth
If hispanics have become the majority in some regions and are discrimination against white fokes, well, pardon if I don't shed a tear for their "plight."
That statement seems to say it all right there. Reverse discrimination is OK as long as its against the proper group. AA totally reinforces the barriers its propenents claim they want to break down (or equalize as they put it). Its about retribution.. not equalization.

Sure, race isnt the only criteria that AA uses for "equalization" but the fact that it is one is a problem.

Manx's analogy about alignment is perfectly flawed. The solution to fix alignment is not to compensate by turning the wheel the opposite direction... but to actually fix the alignment.. the real source of the problem.

In all honesty I can live with AA for now (I'm a 26 yr old white male, from a middle class family btw). I havnt been screwed out of a job because of it or denied a slot at a university. AA hasnt affected me in any tangible way. But the fact that it is in place is a valid excuse not to come up with another solution. People seem to forget that even without AA there are laws against discrimination based on race. Perhaps those laws should be enforced. Even proponents of AA seem to admit it that it is a less than perfect band-aid. A band-aid that needs to stay in place till a better solution arrives. Well my question is.. when will you all be happy enough with the situation to remove this peice of legislation? When will AA no longer be necassary?

For as long as I've been alive the majority of people in this country (propelled in great deal by the left) have been trying to dissolve the racial barriers. How does AA support this goal? I cannot fathom with any logic how it does so.

I'm left to conclude that it is still a politically manipulative issue for the left, just like abortion is for the right. Abortion is never going away (at least not without a tough tough struggle) but its a great way to mobilze a base. Thats what AA is. Thats why it will never go away in the forseeable future. It does nothing to solve the problems people hoped it would. It still remains a nice peice of rope for the left to grasp in order to regain some of their lost power in the political arena. That is the only reason I can see the left clings so tenaciously to this obviously flawed peice of legislation. Does it solve any real world problems? Not that I can see..

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Old 03-27-2005, 09:28 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprocket
Manx's analogy about alignment is perfectly flawed. The solution to fix alignment is not to compensate by turning the wheel the opposite direction... but to actually fix the alignment.. the real source of the problem.
Ya think?

Point me in the direction of the mechanic that can fix the problem of racism. No? Then we have no other option but to counter steer.
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Old 03-27-2005, 10:14 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
Ya think?

Point me in the direction of the mechanic that can fix the problem of racism. No? Then we have no other option but to counter steer.
I will as soon as you point me in the direction of a politician who can fix my alignment .

One of the statements I made in my post is that there are laws on the books to deal with racism. The kind of racism that AA tries to compensate for is illegal. Mabye we need better ways to enforce those laws. That is our other option.

edit: but either way this is not an issue that would drive me to the polls. This is low on my list of priorities as far as political issues are concerned.
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Last edited by sprocket; 03-27-2005 at 10:47 PM..
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Old 03-27-2005, 11:04 PM   #37 (permalink)
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There are laws on the books that deal with racism - but only in exceptional cases are they going to be enforceable. "Better enforcement" is easy to say, but not anything close to a practical option.
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Old 03-28-2005, 07:09 AM   #38 (permalink)
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When was the last time you applied to college? Perhaps application forms have changed.
Spring 2001, and yes there was a portion on it saying that they enforce Affirmitive Action and preference would be given based on race in order to provide "diversity". Yeah, doesn't sound like my facts are wrong to me.
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Old 03-28-2005, 07:19 AM   #39 (permalink)
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"college republicans" huh? I bet they're a fun bunch of guys. They have their whole lives to propogare a socially conservative agenda... and be so serious about everything. Wouldnt they be better off smoking weed and having sex and normal college things?

Anyway, I think plastering their little stunt on the media achieves what they want... which is attention... personally I think there sale was ridiculous, but I would have pretended to be a homosexual, working class, half blood Indian with Hispanic and black family, and a Muslim... and.... whatever ever minority groups college republicans are especially paranoid about... and get some cupcakes for a cent each. That's teach em. What they did is offensive to some people probably, but denying them attention is the best remedy to this kind of thing.
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Old 03-28-2005, 07:29 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Strange Famous
"college republicans" huh? I bet they're a fun bunch of guys. They have their whole lives to propogare a socially conservative agenda... and be so serious about everything. Wouldnt they be better off smoking weed and having sex and normal college things?

Anyway, I think plastering their little stunt on the media achieves what they want... which is attention... personally I think there sale was ridiculous, but I would have pretended to be a homosexual, working class, half blood Indian with Hispanic and black family, and a Muslim... and.... whatever ever minority groups college republicans are especially paranoid about... and get some cupcakes for a cent each. That's teach em. What they did is offensive to some people probably, but denying them attention is the best remedy to this kind of thing.
Psstt.... that's what they wanted.
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