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Old 03-29-2005, 09:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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MSNBC Sez; 61 yrs. old High Ranking BSA Official Guilty of Having Male Child Porn

MSNBC TV just reported that (link to be added when available) a long time
Boy Scouts of America official, age 61, will plead guilty tomorrow to possession of male child pornography, facing a minimum five year jail sentence after he pleads. Is your reaction to this is that he must be homosexual ?

If not, what else could explain this man's admission of possessing male child pornagraphy?
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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WTF?
Of all the things to pull out of this( sentence), why the hell is the homosexuality of this guy the focus of your questions?
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:21 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Because Host doesn't like the Boy Scouts, they don't let homosexuals join in the reindeer games.
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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No.

My response is that he is a pedophile that preys on boys, which many of them do.

It is an interesting observation which many on the right tend to ignore.
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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the boy scouts again. sheesh.

i'll wait to see the link for further information on this.

but my immediate reactions are questions:

how did this guy's porn collection become a public matter?

does the possession of this type of porn necessarily mean that the guy is an active pedophile?
if he is, then why was he not charged with that?
if there is no charge of pedophile activity, what makes you think he is one necessarily?
what linkage do you think there is between possession of pornography and actual sexual behaviours?
do you think that, for example, everyone who cruises about the titty board here actually carries out in 3-d life the scenarios that might arouse in photos?
there are many porn scenarios that look to me like rape: does the fact that folk might, for whatever reason, find this type of thing to be titillating mean that each of them is a rapist?
would not the assumption that there is sich a link pose problems for this board itself?
if there is no such link, insofar as the assumptions that underpin this board are concerned, then why would there necessarily be one in the case of this guy, about whom no-one here appears to know anything?

i am just curious about how the thinking works in some of the responses above.

as for the bsa itself, i do not really care at this point whether the organization collapses or not. i enjoyed my time in the bsa as a kid--but from the point where it invoked its private status to rationalize bigotry (based on the ridiculous association between people who are gay and pedophilia, the kind of idiotic bullshit that comes straight out of christian coalition videos), i lost any remaining respect that i might have had for it.
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Pedophilia is an entirely different sexual orientation outside of the normal continuum of gay/bi/straight. Pedophilia and homosexuality are completely unrelated. Therefore the likelihood is that he is just a pedophile, not a homosexual. While he may prefer young BOYS, that preference makes him a pedophile, not a homosexual.

If you have any more questions about the distinctions made in the study of sexuality, feel free to ask.
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Old 03-29-2005, 09:52 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Or maybe many on the right take it into proper context, that this is one guy, one pederass, rather then using it to discredit and entire group of people.

But yeah, I would for sure consider this man gay (but as pointed out it's a definition thing of pedophilia, he may technically not be), and my reaction is it's sick, they should throw the book at him and then put him in with the violent felons, maybe he has some other sick fantasies they can help him live out.
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Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 03-29-2005 at 10:03 AM..
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:00 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Ok since I think I know the direction this thread s supposed to take, I will ask these questions.
1. How would you (whoever responds) react if he had female child porn? Is he more, less, or just as horrible and disgusting?


2. If he had both male and female child porn, what is he then?


Personally, I tend to agree with onesnowyowl. Why? Do little kids really look like their adult counter-parts? It's kind of like a 3rd (and 4th?) sex to be arroused by.

And for the record, my belief is if you have child porn get ready for a long stay in prison. The only type of crimes there is NO justification for are sex crimes. Having them against children is exponentially worse to me.

Last edited by RAGEAngel9; 03-29-2005 at 10:01 AM.. Reason: Correct spelling is for pussies
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAGEAngel9
Ok since I think I know the direction this thread s supposed to take, I will ask these questions.
1. How would you (whoever responds) react if he had female child porn? Is he more, less, or just as horrible and disgusting?


2. If he had both male and female child porn, what is he then?


Personally, I tend to agree with onesnowyowl. Why? Do little kids really look like their adult counter-parts? It's kind of like a 3rd (and 4th?) sex to be arroused by.

And for the record, my belief is if you have child porn get ready for a long stay in prison. The only type of crimes there is NO justification for are sex crimes. Having them against children is exponentially worse to me.
1. just as horrible and disgusting.
2. bi-sexual pederass
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Old 03-29-2005, 12:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Folks, the term is pederast, not pederass.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I like pederass.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Here is a story on it:
Boy Scout director charged with having child porn

Quote:
DALLAS, Texas - The national director of programs for the Boy Scouts of America has been charged with receiving and distributing child pornography, the U.S. Attorney's office here told NBC News on Tuesday.

advertisement
Douglas S. Smith Jr. was charged with one felony count of having photos that show "minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct."

Sources in the U.S. Attorney's office told NBC that Smith was expected to plead guilty.

The images were of young boys and the investigation started in Germany, the sources added.
I don't care what this guy does for a living, he needs to fry. Any crime against a child is the worst in my opinion.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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What impact does his being homo- vs. heterosexual have anyway? The guy is a pervert one way or another, he likes porn about little kids, who cares if he is or considers himself to be homosexual?
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Before this gets too off base, lets keep the fact this man was a high-ranking official of the BSA out of this.

I have 27 years experience in the Boy Scouts and find it to be a very worthwhile organization. I admit, it is another black eye we didn't need, but this could have happend anywhere.

Not all pedophiles are gay and not all scout leaders are gay or pedophiles.



/rant

Sorry, it tends to be a sore spot sometimes. Too often Boy Scouts = gay in online forums.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Boy Scouts do not = gay.

However, they have opened themselves up for attack by not allowing gays into Scouts. It is ironic that someone who is apparently "high ranking" in the organization has turned out to be a paedophile.

The linkage between paedophilia and gays was made by the Scouts themselves. By banning homosexuals they are implying that gay men would prey on boys.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I don't really see what importance BSA has to this story other than sensationalism. If this person ranks higher than a local scoutmaster it means he spent little or no time in actual contact with boys. Above scoutmaster you're talking about an office job.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:57 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Point well taken Charlatan. And actually I agree with you.

I don't actually agree with National's standards on a lot of things, but they make the rules and therefore I have to abide by them. As a Committee Chairman, I have to review all adult applications. Thankfully, I have never had the situation come up where an openly gay male has applied. My ideals would have to take a back seat to BSA's.
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Old 03-29-2005, 02:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I like pederass.

Hello, new signature.

As for this guy, whatever. Perverts everywhere, especially in situations where they deal with the subject of their perversion. Does that mean everyone involved with the Boy or Girl Scouts is a pedophile? What about elementary school teachers? Obviously not. Fire him, then charge him with a crime, convict him, punish him. Moving on.
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Old 03-29-2005, 03:04 PM   #19 (permalink)
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One thing I would like to know that can't be answered here is:
1. Does the BSA consider it worse that he had male porn?
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAGEAngel9
One thing I would like to know that can't be answered here is:
1. Does the BSA consider it worse that he had male porn?
Given his profession and all of the other controversy the BSA has had recently regarding their stance on gays, probably.

It probably could have been swept under the rug and buried on page 3 of most newspapers had it been regular porn. A 61 year old male caught with porn on his computer...yawn, next.

A 61 year old Boy Scout official with child porn involving boys... HEADLINES!!!!
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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This is from that article linked above:

Quote:
The Scouts have been under fire in recent years for refusing to allow gays, atheists or agnostics into the organization.

“That’s totally irrelevant to this,” Shields [national spokesman for the BSA] said.
He's right. This particular newsbreak is about finding pedophilia (and not homophobia) in the ranks of the Boy Scout officials. Besides:

Quote:
Law enforcement officials indicated the pictures did not show boys who were with the Boy Scouts organization, Shields said.
The fact that he was looking at the boyporn (despite the fact that the people who actually make it should be flayed and cooked on a spit) isn't evidence that he personally has ever committed any sexual crimes directly against children. As long as he pleads guilty and does his time, that's the end of the story in my book.
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Old 03-29-2005, 11:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supple Cow
This is from that article linked above:



He's right. This particular newsbreak is about finding pedophilia (and not homophobia) in the ranks of the Boy Scout officials. Besides:



The fact that he was looking at the boyporn (despite the fact that the people who actually make it should be flayed and cooked on a spit) isn't evidence that he personally has ever committed any sexual crimes directly against children. As long as he pleads guilty and does his time, that's the end of the story in my book.
ACLU = Bad -- BSA policy of exclusion of homosexual scoutmasters = Good

So many posts on this thread avoid the obvious hypocrisy of pornographer Smith, The BSA policy makers, ACLU bashers who use the ACLU v. BSA as a
hot button issue, the Christian Evangelicals who have politicized this, and of the posters here who try to persuade us of "what this isn't about" ( TFP members who volunteer their time to lead the praiseworthy boys who participate in the BSA, are explicity excluded from my focus here !).
Quote:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/30/national/30scout.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/30/national/30scout.html</a>

The director, Douglas Sovereign Smith Jr., 61, who was put on leave last month and quietly retired March 1, was expected to plead guilty on Wednesday to the single felony count filed by federal prosecutors, a crime that can carry a prison term of 5 to 20 years, said Kathy Colvin, a spokeswoman for the United States attorney's office.

Ms. Colvin said that a prosecutor's filing, rather than a grand jury indictment, was commonly used to charge a defendant when a guilty plea was anticipated. The filing <b>charges Mr. Smith with knowingly receiving and sending "computer images which contained photographs of minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct."</b>

Mr. Smith, program director since 1996 and a scouting official for 39 years, did not respond to a message left on his telephone in Colleyville, near Fort Worth. His lawyer, Jack Strickland, also did not return calls but told The Associated Press: "He's not taking this well. I've got to tell you, this is a good man and I would hate to see the entirety of his life and the good things he's done defined by one incident."

Gregg Shields, a spokesman for the Boy Scouts, which has its national headquarters in Irving, a Dallas suburb, said: "We're shocked and disappointed. Never in our recollection has an employee ever been charged with anything like this."

Mr. Shields said that Mr. Smith had held an administrative post that coordinated Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts programs with churches and schools and did not involve leading troops. "He's always been a good employee," Mr. Shields said. He said there was no record of accusations against Mr. Smith.

Mr. Shields said the Scouts learned of the investigation in a visit by agents from the Department of Homeland Security in February and put Mr. Smith on administrative leave. "Shortly thereafter he chose to retire," Mr. Shields said.

Ms. Colvin said the investigation had been carried out under Operation Predator, an initiative announced in 2003 by the Department of Homeland Security "to protect children from pornographers, child prostitution rings, Internet predators, alien smugglers, human traffickers and other criminals." The operation's investigative agency is the department's Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which coordinates enforcement actions from what it calls its CyberSmuggling Center in Fairfax, Va.

Court records show that the prosecutor's information was filed March 21 and that Mr. Smith surrendered on Friday, when he appeared before Judge Charles Bleil in United States District Court in Fort Worth and was released pending an arraignment on Wednesday.

Mr. Shields said he did not know the jobs Mr. Smith held in the organization before becoming national program director. He said the organization had some 7,000 employees and about 1.5 million volunteers. In November 2002, according to a Boy Scouts posting on the Web, Mr. Smith, identifying himself as "National Director of Program and Chairman, Youth Protection Task Force," sent Scouts executives a letter announcing "a groundbreaking initiative for youth protection" and expansion of "our offering of programs to protect youth."
<b>
As of February 2003, Mr. Smith said, scout leaders, parents and other volunteers could go to the Internet for a training course on protecting scouts while out on tours and trips. He expressed confidence that the Web site would prove helpful "in providing the most wholesome possible environment for young people."

When five boy scouts were among 17 young people honored with Congressional Award Gold Medals in 1999, Mr. Smith accompanied the group to Washington and posed with them for a photo in Statuary Hall.

Mr. Smith also responded on behalf of the Boy Scouts in September 2004 when a lawyer and onetime Eagle Scout, Bruce D. Collins, wrote a letter taking issue with the Boy Scouts' dismissal of an assistant scoutmaster, James Dale, because he was gay. The case reached the Supreme Court and established the Boy Scouts' right to bar gays under the organization's own First Amendment right of expressive association.

Mr. Smith replied that "some intolerant elements in our society want to force scouting to abandon its values and become fundamentally different." He said that Mr. Collins "would do well to communicate his displeasure to those directing their discriminatory assault against his beloved Boy Scouts - the A.C.L.U."</b>

Last year, Mr. Smith was honored by the Boy Scouts with a Distinguished Service Award. His nomination read in part, "His visionary support to the National OA Committee has allowed our Order to move to new levels."
Is it a coincidence, or more BSA Executive level hypocrisy that pornagrapher Smith's "letter to the editor" on the bsalegal.org website, displays as a search result on Google, but is not available at the web address. Luckily, Smith's "ACLU as scapegoat" letter is available on Google's cache....
Quote:
<a href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1NguQR9-M5YJ:www.bsalegal.org/brucecol-181.htm+would+do+well+to+communicate+his+displeasure+to+those+directing+their+discriminatory+assault+against+his+beloved+Boy+Scouts+-+the+A.C.L.U.&hl=en">http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1NguQR9-M5YJ:www.bsalegal.org/brucecol-181.htm</a>
Corporate Legal Times
Volume 14, Number 152
Copyright 2004 Corporate Legal Times LLC

July, 2004

AN EAGLE SCOUT TAKES ISSUE WITH GROUP'S POLITICS

At the Non-Profit Bar

Bruce D. Collins

I AM an Eagle Scout. My mother was a den mother and my father a pack leader and an assistant scoutmaster. A Cub Scout at the age of 8, I was a patrol leader, senior patrol leader, junior assistant scoutmaster and summer camp assistant scoutmaster. I was selected for the Order of the Arrow and served in the National Scout Service Corps at the New York World's Fair in 1965.

I joined the Explorer Scouts and even attended a national Explorer delegate conference. Scouting gave me opportunities, taught me useful skills and imbued me with many positive values.

James Dale was a Boy Scout who had basically the same involvement in the organization as I had. The only real difference between Dale and me is that he is gay and I am not.

Dale was a 19-year-old assistant scoutmaster when the Scouts discovered he was a homosexual in 1990. They kicked him out. He sued, claiming discrimination. The case, BSA v. Dale, went to the Supreme Court, which ruled in a 5-4 decision that the Scouts had a First Amendment right of expressive association that allowed them to choose their leaders.

Decided in 2000, the case inspired other discrimination claims, and ultimately changed the organization.

When I came across the Scouts' Web site, I had the disquieting idea that today's Boy Scouts is a fundamentally different organization from the one I was a member of 40 years ago. My first thought was, why in world does such a do-gooder organization even need such a site?

The answer came when I clicked on the "Litigation" link. Up popped a distressing number of suits (including the Dale case) brought against the Scouts and by the Scouts..............

........But now, after reading the cases and Scouting's vigorous defense of itself, it seems there has been a fundamental change. The Boy Scouts have been dragged into-or have placed themselves amid-the broad division that has infected the rest of our society.

Just as national politics have been dichotomized into blue and red states, so, too, has Scouting been set apart. As a former Boy Scout, an Eagle Scout to this day and a citizen, I am not happy about it. I can see no a good outcome on the horizon.

Bruce D. Collins is the corporate vice president and general counsel of C-SPAN. E-mail: collins@c-span.org

**************************
Corporate Legal Times

September, 2004

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR; Pg. 10

Boy Scout Pride

Dear Editor:

Bruce Collins is mistaken when he calls Boy Scouts a "fundamentally different" organization from the one he joined 40 years ago. ["An Eagle Scout Takes Issue With Group's Politics" July, p. 7]. Boy Scouts is the same organization with the same values and goals. What is fundamentally different, however, is our times.

Some intolerant elements in our society want to force scouting to abandon its values and to become fundamentally different. They want scouting to forego its constitutional rights, affirmed in 2000 by the Supreme Court in BSA v. Dale, and adopt fundamentally different values from the ones that helped shape the character of Mr. Collins and 106 million other young men over the past 94 years.

It bothers Mr. Collins that scouting is defending itself, even though he acknowledged that it has been "dragged into" the "culture war." He says the tone of our legal-issues web site, bsalegal.org, is defensive. The site does seek to defend our values and to inform the public about the three-decade-long legal assault on scouting. That we need a legal-issues web site is testament to the fact that our constitutional rights are under attack.

Clearly, Mr. Collins longs for a time when the Boy Scout organization could give its undivided attention to the "good stuff" of Scouting: "camping and life skills ..." So do we. Mr. Collins would do well to communicate his displeasure to those directing their discriminatory assault against his beloved Boy Scouts -- the ACLU.

Douglas S. Smith Jr.
National Director of Program
Boy Scouts of America

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Old 03-31-2005, 11:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
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host - I didn't know about all that other stuff he was in the news for; I only read the MSN article, which didn't mention all the other stuff you emphasized in the NY Times article. I see the hypocrisy now.
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