05-09-2005, 09:26 PM | #1 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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Macnamara's Advice to Bush, One War Criminal to Another.....
89 year old former US Secty of Defense Robert S. Macnamara makes a plea to the Bush administration for a sane nuclear policy. Is the current Bush nuclear policy beneficial to the stated U.S. goal of preventing further proliferation?
If you haven't already, I urge everyone to see the movie: Quote:
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05-09-2005, 09:47 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Mistreatments of Iraqi Fighters because they are not considered Prisoners of War but Terrorists.. or some crap like that.. Also that Crazy Corporal Playing around with Prisoners Ding Dongs.. and her Camera.. with her nice little smile... but she was punished or discharged.. but the point is they are still being mistreated. |
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05-09-2005, 10:08 PM | #5 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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http://www.motherearth.org/bushwanted/laws.php#us Here are some war related fuck ups http://www.nogw.com/warcrimes.html does this help? or no. |
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05-09-2005, 10:10 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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05-09-2005, 10:17 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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but thats ok cause its collateral damage.. in order for things to get better innocent people die right? |
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05-09-2005, 10:24 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Well in that case you would have to prove the intent of our soldiers is specifically to kill innocent civilians, there is no doubt that is the goal of many of the insurgents or the ones who are more approprietly(sp) deemed terrorists.
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05-09-2005, 10:39 PM | #9 (permalink) | |||
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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something definately wrong there to me? Quote:
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05-10-2005, 12:13 AM | #10 (permalink) | |||||||
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In the interest of defending my choice for titling this thread, I'll post some excerpts of detailed references here in support: (I hope that we can shift back to the subject of the thread; Macnamara's epiphany later in his life, his advice to the Bush admin. on nuclear weapons, especially interesting because of his experience, especially as Kennedy's Defense Secty during the Cuban missle crises and as architect and manager of 7 years of the Vietnam war......) Quote:
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http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/newsroom/releases/archives.asp Law Professors and NGO’s Warn President Bush of Legal Consequences of Iraq War Letter To Adminstration Officials Highlights Actions Which New York, January 24th, 2003 – A group of over 100 prominent law professors and non-governmental organizations organized by the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) today sent a letter to President Bush and senior government officials warning that their conduct during a potential war on Iraq would be closely scrutinized based on well established principles of international law including humanitarian law.: Quote:
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05-10-2005, 12:51 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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But even if you ignore the GC, the detainment of those people is still a violation of human rights.
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
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05-10-2005, 07:59 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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05-10-2005, 08:17 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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My appologies for not jumping on the rude posts sooner.
Perhaps if I had, several people wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines for a week. But I honestly thought I could take a few days off. My bad. So here is the warning for this thread. The title invites flames. Don't give into temptation. If you do, you will join those individuals with a time out.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
05-10-2005, 09:06 AM | #14 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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macnamara has been interested in turning himself into a kind of elder statesman for years--the fog of war is part of that.
but you also see in that film that macnamara is only really forthcoming about questions to do with real/potential war crimes when there is obviously someone else to blame for it: the firebombing of tokyo is one such example: the acceleration of american activities in vietnam as a function of the kennedy assassination is another. when it comes to agent orange, in the film macnamara is entirely evasive. it is interesting to see in the above edito what macnamara talks about and what he does not talk about. he certainly is in a position to talk about the question of nuclear war. it is certainly strange to find oneself reading an edito from this guy and agreeing with it. kinda makes you feel dirty. but there we are: it is from the experience of the cuban missle crisis that macnamara can talk about how easy it is, given the correct circumstances--to come very very close to nuclear war. i do not think the bush people have the faintest idea. the development of a first strike rationale in recent military strategic thinking is one index of this--the absurd, inconsistent positions taken by this administration on the bigger questions of nuclear proliferation on the one hand and american nuclear strategy for itself on the other speak for themselves. this stuff macnamara can talk about. he could also talk about how easy it can be to rationalize a foul unnecesary colonial war--but he doesnt. he could talk about the various slides one can make once involved--the justification of torture, for example, or the use of napalm or other chemical weapons--this kind of anything goes mentality--but he doesnt. on nukes, macnamara can frame hiself as part of the kennedy administration--on other questions, everything is probably johnson's fault in his mind in any event--but even if this is not true, these qeustions do not allow macnamara to speak as though his hands are clean. such is the way this type of discourse goes. what is a shame is that i dont see any reason to imagine the administration will take macnamara seriously. perhaps as a function of that particular type of arrogance you see in limited people with seemingly unlimited power.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-10-2005, 04:23 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Is it cause Osama Bin Ladin originated from there? Terrorist Camps? I don't know the real reason.. so It would be nice if you could explain... Because as far as i see, they went into Iraq to get "chemical weapons" which were never found, and just ended up taking Saddam, and "liberating" Iraq, creating a ton of War Crimes along the way. |
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05-10-2005, 04:54 PM | #16 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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An illegimate theocratic regime facilitated Osama Bin Laden who masterminded the biggest terrorist attack in American history. It was an act of war against our nation, read an act of aggression, hence we were provoked. Anyone who claims we were not of the authority or right to go into Afghanistan is a nutbar.
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05-10-2005, 05:15 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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For all of his faults during the Viet Nam era, he does know what he is talking about and experienced our country on the brink of mutual annihilation. We would all be well served if Bush listened to this man. |
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05-10-2005, 05:24 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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What does Nuclear proliferation matter these days anyway? People (read those that fall under the "liberal" umbrella) are quick to defend countries such as Iran and NK who are in direct defiance of the treaty, or to insist it is somehow America's (read Shrubs) fault, or as I've seen on this board go after countries like Israel who aren't party to the treaty.
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05-10-2005, 06:09 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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I think it matters a great deal that millions of people can be vaporized in the blink of an eye, and believe that this should be prevented by any means. The difference between Iran and North Korea is that Iran wants to use nuclear material for electricity.. nuclear power plants. North Korea wants nuclear material to create weaponry that would be used to obliterate countless numbers of people. Looking at the leader of N. Korea i can reasonably say that he is not a mentally stable individual, and would probably end up using these weapons.
The reasons we have not dealt with N. Korea are: 1. we just don't have the troops to do it with them busy occupying two contries at the moment. 2. We learned our lesson from the first few wars in that region.. its not exactly an easy place to fight. The desert is much better for the way our country wages war.
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We Must Dissent. |
05-10-2005, 06:40 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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1) Iran is sitting on a huge oil reserve which can easily provide electricity for every man, woman and child in the nation for centuries. This can be done safely and cheaply. This verses the very large expense of developing nuclear energy and the hazards associated with it. 2) Iran has vowed to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth and Isreal has nuclear weapons.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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04-07-2008, 03:53 PM | #22 (permalink) | ||
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I predict there will be much more talk about "war criminals" of the Bush administration. I think it is important that the political events that will truly "go down in history" not be eclipsed on this forum by discussions about people and events that will end up of little consequence. Jeremiah Wright and the "Black Judge" video immediately come to mind.
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04-07-2008, 05:59 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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04-07-2008, 06:19 PM | #25 (permalink) | |||||||
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04-07-2008, 09:09 PM | #26 (permalink) |
Eat your vegetables
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
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Host, you reveal a dark and frightening side of things here.
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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy |
04-07-2008, 10:24 PM | #27 (permalink) | |||||||||||
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The Senate seems to be going after Morris Davis's former boss, a potential "war crimes king pin", William "Jim" Haynes. I know the news cycle centers around Britney, Jeremiah Wright, Obama's bowling score, Hillary's schedule when she was first lady....the press checks to see if she was at the White House, 11 years ago, on the day Monica was giving oral to Bill, and they thoroughly covered their weekend at McCain's Sedona "cabin", but all this "stuff" might end up in war crimes trials, and thus, we must at least assemble it and take a look see, like it or not....IT'S Soooooo Looonnnng, and we all hate to read Lonnnnnng Posts !!!! Quote:
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04-08-2008, 01:49 AM | #28 (permalink) |
Psycho
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The odds of any impeachment are nil to none. Whether it's because the Democrats don't have the balls necessary to pull it off or they are knee deep in this and other scandals and don't want to rock the boat to much during an election year or a bit of both, you will have to decide.
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04-08-2008, 08:41 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Nice posts Host.. really informative..
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lets be honest, who is McCain? He has been doing nothing compared to the Democrats.. but, I guess there are those people that vote Republican for the sake of voting Republican.. we'll have to see |
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04-08-2008, 08:47 AM | #30 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Muhahaha... I knew I could coax you back. Yes, the Democrats are too afraid of the potential fallout to impeach Bush.
Had they done it back in 2003 when we found no WMDs, we could have potentially avoided Plamegate, warrentless wiretaps and other domestic spying, torture, "extraordinary rendition" (international kidnapping), prisoners being held without trial, now over 4000 Coalition deaths, as many as 1.3 million Iraq deaths, and as many as 5 million displaced in and outside of Iraq. We also missed out on positive things that could have happened like repealing NCLB and Clean Air, signing on to Kyoto, no tax breaks for big oil, the middle class could be getting stronger instead of weaker, and a myriad of fantasies that are now lost. |
04-08-2008, 01:59 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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The troika behind the Bush torture policy.....Yoo (at DoJ), Addington (at White House) and Hayes (at Pentagon) are all lawyering up in advance of more Congressional hearings this spring/summer.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
05-11-2008, 07:01 PM | #32 (permalink) | ||||
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OKAY....Morris Davis receives some sort of vindication, even if it comes too late to save his military career, but maybe it is a sign that there are still some elements of the military command that are not as corrupt as the civiliann administration that commands it:
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"Gen. Hartmann [is barred] from any role in Mr. Hamdan's case, bars the appointment of any of Gen. Hartmann's deputies as his successor and forbids any retaliation against military officers who offered testimony against Gen. Hartmann." Should Gen. Hartmann be ordered to resign, or be permitted to carry out his version of "justice" against other gitmo prisoners? Where does the Bush administation manage to find so many thugs to carry out it's "vision"? It seems that there are an endless supply available. UPDATE: This is an excerpt from the link at the top of the last quote box: Quote:
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05-13-2008, 01:34 AM | #33 (permalink) | ||||
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I'm wondering if a military led coup, run by frustrated officers who are shocked by the behavior and decisions of their CIC and some of their fellow officers, would even be a bad thing, anymore.
My last posts details the ruling made by a military judge, ordering USAF Gen. Thomas Hartmann, Legal Advisor in the Hamdan gitmo prosecution, to stay away from that case, along with his staff, and not to retaliate against officers who protested Hartmann's unehtical, conflicted, an unprofessional, blatantly politicized behavior. Today, we have this new example, a prominent, fast track for promotion, high ranking US Army General who would probably serve his country better if he resigned: Quote:
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Here's the CIC, his Defense Sec'ty and his national security team described, as they set us up for failure, from the outset, in Iraq: Quote:
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<h3>Citizen to Gen. Hartmann, Gen. McChrystal, and Adm. Mullen....you're not supposed to be obviously partisan, unethical, or order or ignore war crimes; you're not to act in a partisan polical manner, at all !!!</h3> Our military leadership seems as pathetic as our elected leadership, sheesh ! Last edited by host; 05-13-2008 at 01:43 AM.. |
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advice, bush, criminal, macnamara, war |
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