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But a lot of people on the left side of the aisle disagree with you on this particular. |
on "terror":
1. what do you make of the notion of "assymetrical warfare" in general--faced with a very powerful, vertically organized military apparatus, the only way a small force can operate is to switch the rules of enagagement, yes? the only way this strategy can be understood as other than rational is if you apply the term "terrorist" to such organizations--which simply reflects the fact that the folk who get to name such operations do not like this particular one--so they are terrorists-----but the same naming apparatus may well like another, more or less identical group and what it does---so they are something on the order of "freedom fighters"----this despite the fact that nothing seperates the two tactically. if that is the case, then terror is not about a type of organization--it is a political designation the effect of which is to erase any political motivation behind what these smaller groups might do. 2. maybe these grounds operate: "terrorists" kill indiscriminately. but is not "total war" part of the understanding of any military strategy? under "traditional" war, are not civilian targets understood as fair game as a function of "morale breaking"? think about the development of this since the american civil war through the main "legitimate" euro-american wars (world war 1 and 2--the latter in particular)--the strategies behind the cold war...etc.. i make this distinction because if you think about the colonial actions of these same euro-american powers, you see pretty quickly that there were no such rules in those contexts. not really. there were always justifications floated for the mau mau, algeria, vietnam, nicaragua----but in the main, these were horrifically brutal wars in which the euro-powers operated without compunction, without regard for such rules of warfare as actually obtain(ed). . but states cannot be terrorist, it seems. so anything these powers do is therefore not terrorist. in particular: how and why is a homemade time bomb left in a public square more or less indiscriminate as a weapon for killing randomly than a large bomb dropped from a huge plane 5 miles high? from a smaller bomb dropped from a low-flying bomber? from the effects of an artillery barrage? from the effects of a fusillade from any number of terrified ground troops? what is the distinction? is there really more to it than: faced with the choice between indiscrimiate killing carried out by people in uniforms and that carried out by people not in uniforms, you choose the uniforms. perhaps because you like uniforms? certainly not because one is more or less likely to kill civililans indiscrimately. it is usually at this point that the objection arises, in one form or another: war is hell. well yes. yes it is. the word terrorist is very 1984. the empty organizing signifier around which contemporary variants of the group hate can unfold. nice pctures of representatives of those irrational fellows who oppose the forward march of the neocolonial order appear on tv on a regular basis just so that you, in the comfort of your livingroom, can hate them. because they hate you. you could argue that they are understood as irrational because they are labelled terrorist up front--that is the function of the term, that is why it is used. so the term refers to the context that does the naming, not to the nature, goals or tactics of any particular group. |
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so 70% of the attacks are legal and no terroristic attacks? |
I would argue that military targets (like it or not) are legitimate targets. It is only when civilians are specifically targeted that you verge into the realm of terrorism.
Therefore, if that number of 70% is to be believed, yes they are legit. |
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No 'law' says that a terrorist ONLY attacks civilians, in fact that would be silly. They want to weaken the will of the American people as well as the Iraqi's. Killing Iraqi children will not weaken our resolve, but strengthen it, so they kill our soliders as well, and if others get hurt, so what. Their main hope of course is that people in the US will just give up. |
so then "terrorists" are doing the exact same thing that clausewitz argued any modern military had to do in the course of war--to weaken "morale"--because morale is also a "legitimate" military target, yes? if you believe this nationalist mythology stuff that is (without it, military actions are functions of purely technical rationality--which seems obviously true, but no matter, let's stick with the mythology of nation), morale is what enables the conduct of war at all. so therefore anything that undermines morale serves properly military functions.
so if that is true, where does the distinction terrorist/not terrorist lay again? |
The U.S. is a Dr. Frankenstein that has over and over again had to deal with the monster we build. In Iran, we financed the Shah's monarchy so that we had a political voice in the Mid-east and access to the oil. He was ousted by the moolahs so we buddy up with Saddam and give him all the weapons he needs (including chemical) for his 8-year war. We didn't care so much about what a tyrant he was then dropping bombs on his own people, as long as he kept Iran poor and preoccupied.
We buddied up with the taliban and taught them to fight and gave them weapons so they would fight off Russia who wanted to control the pipeline territory back in the 80's. (Rambo III, anyone?) Our military support of the oppressive Saudi royal family on holy land is the reason those planes were filled with Saudi nationals on 9/11. Every orphan we have created in Iraq will be waiting for the opportunity to avenge his or her family. That kind of hate doesn't ever go away... |
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Ustwo, so lets assume theres a group in iraq who's sole aim is to rid iraq of foreign occupiers. regardless of their political views or whether they are ex-saddam militia men, fundamentalists, foreign fighters, ex-presidential guard. lets also assume that they decry the killing of innocent civilians, but they attack US convoys because the US is an occupier rather than a liberator. would these people be considered 'terrorists'? i would think that any military occupying force would be a legitimate target in this case, whether its US or its allies. |
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We learned from those mistakes. The terrorists haven't learned that lesson yet. |
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From their POV, they have worked hard, educated themselves, built businesses, made Iraq what it is through sweat and blood. Now, these unappreciative, uneducated, lazy, backwoods Shia are taking everything away, just like they did in Iran. Only this time the U.S. is holding the gun to my head while we sit here and watch our whole lives destroyed. They have nothing left except to fight. Of course they are terrorist now. They weren't a year ago. But terrorist doesn't refer to motive or right or wrong. Terror is your weapon, and if you make the violence seem random enough, and innocent people needlessly die, your terror will last a long time. 9/11 was horrible, but it was the fear of the unknown, the nothing that ever came, that crippled this country. |
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If you haven't done so already, the al-Quaeda training manual (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=90135) that was foudn in the home of an arrested al-Quaeda member has been posted online by the Department of Justice, and gives an insight into what a terrorist thinks and how he acts. I know there is debate about the term, but I think you'll agree with me that what is describedi n this book qualifies as terrorism. As upsetting as it is to see our soldiers dying, I cannot condemn Iraqi insurgents who attack only military targets as terrorists. Many of them are glad to see Saddam's government gone, but are unwilling to allow a foreign occupying force to control their country. As much as I hate many of the people who are running my country now, There is no doubt in my mind that I would take up arms against any foreign occupying force that threatened our soverignty. This is why our only hope in Iraq is to show those who want us gone that we will only be there until the country is self-sufficient and run by a legitimate government that will be safe from fringe groups who do not accept its legitimacy after we leave. I can't tell you how it can be done, I don't think that it will be easy, but I do think that it's our only chance. |
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Screw 'em. IMO, terrorism is *never* acceptable. Killing random people and destroying random things in order to spread fear is bad, m'kay. Now, if these insurgents are attacking the army/police/government, I can sort of understand it (even if I oppose it!). But blowing up car bombs in crowded streets is just unacceptable, no matter what the goal may be. |
from today's washington post, an article that dimantles teh administration's claims that the "war on terror" has been a success--this in the context of the recent cowboy george roadshow centered on trying to resell the patriot act.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061100381.html charade it is. |
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In our country, quite a few people have been tried for terrorism, and only a few (if any) have been convicted. There's usually too little evidence; and what little evidence there is, is too secret or cannot be independently verified. There's always an innocent explanation for their "terrorist plans", and when there's doubt about guilt, people will not be convicted. But what's the alternative: not doing anything, and only prosecuting terrorists who successfully carried out their plans? |
convicting someone who can afford a good lawyer of conspiracy is in fact quite difficult, yes.
but the administration's argument concerning the "success" of this ludicrous war on ghosts in concrete terms is the convictions under the patriot act. without that, what can they say to sell their "reponse"? that they round up "suspects" in "terrorist activities" largely on the basis of--well waht, really?--and avoid the problems of conspiracy charges by keeping them indefinitely without trial in places like guantanomo, or better yet sending folk for a litel vacation in a syrian resort or something on that order? the entire logic of this "war" is a joke--it benefits only teh present administration, which has used it and doubtless will continue to use it as a justification for any and every ideologically motivated action they have taken. the logical problem with this kind of "war" is well-posed at the beginning of the thread--there is no war, thereis no enemy, there is no space of conflict--instead the "enemy" is everywhere and nowhere, constantly threatening yet always invisible---it is about generating and maintaining an anxious population and using that anxiety to push for more repressive, more absurd responses like star wars, like increasing military spending, like the creation of private armies in the states that operate as mercenary contractors whose actions fall outside the provisions of international law defining war, and on and on. the war on terror is probably the most troubling parallel between bushwrold and fascism in its traditional mode of operation. then, as now, i suspect your general attitude toward it is in part a function of whether you understand yourself to be among the "us" being "protected" from "them"--or if, as a function of associations with the features of the boogeyman of the moment, you find yourself being position amongs the them--i dont know why--not for anything active, but by association, you know. the drivers behind this discourse are racism and/or a "logic" of religious war (christians vs. infidels, very song of roland, really)...the "war" itself is but an orgnazing point, helping to crystallize and direct these lovely traits of racism and so forth. |
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