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View Poll Results: Would you fight?
Yes. I would fight an invading army 65 80.25%
I would help a resistance movement, but would not personally fight. 9 11.11%
No, I would not resist in any way 2 2.47%
I would only fight if they started doing more than what they claimed they would do. 1 1.23%
I don't know what I would do. 4 4.94%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 06-26-2005, 04:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Would you defend your country from an invasion?

During a recent conversation regarding Iraq, the usual discussion about insurgent attacks on military targets came up, and I started wondering just how many people would take up arms if their country were invaded.

Here's the question: If your country were invaded by a foreign nation, would you be willing to take up arms against that invsion force? Assume that their stated purpose is to overthrow your government and they claim that they will not take permanent control of the country. Also assume that the invasion force is of sufficient size and power to defeat your country's military.

There ins no doubt in my mind that I would fight back against any invading force. I do not politically support my current government officials, but I'd rather die fighting than see our government ovethrown by an outside army. I would not attack any civilian or unarmed person, and I would not take part in any situation that carried a high risk of civilian casualties, but I would fight an invading army with the knowledge that I would probably be killed while doing it.
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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But what if your current gov't was a dictatorship where people are routinely killed for speaking against said dictatorship? Or where people are tortured for the pleasure of your countries ruler?

I think to properly answer the question, you need to state what is the makeup of the gov't that's currently being overthrown.
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmithee
But what if your current gov't was a dictatorship where people are routinely killed for speaking against said dictatorship? Or where people are tortured for the pleasure of your countries ruler?

I think to properly answer the question, you need to state what is the makeup of the gov't that's currently being overthrown.
it all depends on what 'your' government is. if you're in america, it's the US govt. and form of democracy. if you're a cuban, then it's castro. he's asking for our personal perspectives if 'your' country were invaded.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
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As an American, I would. Without hesitation.
If I were living crushed under the boot of a sadistic thug like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong-il, and a liberating force came to overthrow the government, I would do anything I could to help the invaders.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane
As an American, I would. Without hesitation.
If I were living crushed under the boot of a sadistic thug like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong-il, and a liberating force came to overthrow the government, I would do anything I could to help the invaders.
What he said.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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if i supported the institutions already in place before the invasion... then yes i would.

if i was in opposition to the native regime, then i would wait to see what would shake out of the new system before taking action.

i would, under no circumstances, kill or endanger my countrymen in the process.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane
As an American, I would. Without hesitation.
If I were living crushed under the boot of a sadistic thug like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong-il, and a liberating force came to overthrow the government, I would do anything I could to help the invaders.
Yep, its all about context.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannukah harry
it all depends on what 'your' government is. if you're in america, it's the US govt. and form of democracy. if you're a cuban, then it's castro. he's asking for our personal perspectives if 'your' country were invaded.
Well then, let me quote someone else for my answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane
As an American, I would. Without hesitation.
If I were living crushed under the boot of a sadistic thug like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong-il, and a liberating force came to overthrow the government, I would do anything I could to help the invaders.
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Without context, it's really not worth voting on the poll as it will cause people to draw inaccurate conclusions and attempt to apply them to real-life situations, such as the insurgency / terrorism in Iraq.

That said, as an American, I think the only invading force we would need to worry about is our own government and if it came to that I would probably join a resistance movement to some degree.
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If i weren't currently benefitting from the current power structures i'd, at the very least, do nothing. I'd think anyone living below the poverty level might welcome a change of leadership, depending on the one being proposed.
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Old 06-26-2005, 11:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
If i weren't currently benefitting from the current power structures i'd, at the very least, do nothing. I'd think anyone living below the poverty level might welcome a change of leadership, depending on the one being proposed.
Especially if those living below the poverty level believe it's the fault of the current administration.

Those who lift themselves out of poverty make that claim pretty unconvincing, though.
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Old 06-26-2005, 12:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv
Especially if those living below the poverty level believe it's the fault of the current administration.

Those who lift themselves out of poverty make that claim pretty unconvincing, though.
Our economy couldn't exist without a huge underclass. The few who lift themselves out poverty rarely do so without some form of government assistance. Those who lift themselves out of poverty are flukes.

Besides, it isn't the current administration that should be blamed, try as you might to write me off as a bush hater. Clinton fucked the poor just as much, if not more, than bush has. The blame belongs to a system who claims to worship rights, but employs an economic system that forces everyone to worship the dollar. I would imagine that anyone who truly believes that the system is broken, and thinks a better one could be put in place with the help of an invading country would gladly stand idly by. And let's be clear, if you think the system is working to the benefit of everyone in the country, you're not paying attention.

This is all purely for sport though. If you think what i'm saying is treasonous, well, then, i'm just going to preemptively call you an puppy rapist so that we can just get the thoughtless ad homs out of the way.
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Old 06-26-2005, 04:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
This is all purely for sport though. If you think what i'm saying is treasonous, well, then, i'm just going to preemptively call you an puppy rapist so that we can just get the thoughtless ad homs out of the way.
Come on. Nobody said that, so please don't start pushing it that way when it's going well.
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Old 06-26-2005, 05:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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A couple of decades ago there was a made-for-tv movie series called "Amerika" that was based upon the Soviet Union successfully invading the US and taking over it's government. There were quisling's of course, but the body of Americans resisted in various forms which ultimately led to the withdrawal of the invading force.

I wouldn't be foolish enough to throw rocks at a tank, but I would join the resistance and serve in whatever manner I could. I believe most Americans would do the same.
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Old 06-26-2005, 05:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
A couple of decades ago there was a made-for-tv movie series called "Amerika" that was based upon the Soviet Union successfully invading the US and taking over it's government. There were quisling's of course, but the body of Americans resisted in various forms which ultimately led to the withdrawal of the invading force.

I wouldn't be foolish enough to throw rocks at a tank, but I would join the resistance and serve in whatever manner I could. I believe most Americans would do the same.
Mmmmm I don't remember the series very well, it was pretty bad, but I thought in the end the Soviets won.

Was that the one where both the republican and dem presidential candidates were secret communists or agents or some such, and the guy from hart to hart became the defacto leader of the midwest?
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct
Come on. Nobody said that, so please don't start pushing it that way when it's going well.
I was just trying to keep it going well by preempting any such talk. I wasn't pushing it any way but away from there. From my experience, unless the idiocy of such accusations is exposed from the get-go it is only a matter of time before they surface. I bet it still comes up though.

Ustwo, elphaba, are you guys talking about "Red Dawn"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
Come forward a few years - It was worse than the movie with Patrick Swayse and jennifer Gray

this was a made for television miniseries..
Amerika
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092316/
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Old 06-26-2005, 06:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maleficent
Come forward a few years - It was worse than the movie with Patrick Swayse and jennifer Gray

this was a made for television miniseries..
Amerika
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092316/
I liked Red Dawn even if it was silly.

Amerika was just stupid.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I come from a hunting family. The only people in the military were in it for WWII and only oneo f them served over seas so I wouldn't join the military probably (bad knees, can't run, you know...) but if they were in Texas or something I'm a pretty good shot with a deer rifle, so I'd do my part until they filled me with holes.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I liked Red Dawn even if it was silly.

Amerika was just stupid.
Sheesh, people. I didn't say it was a good production and I also didn't realize this was a movie critic's topic. I referenced it only in conjunction with Mr. SelfDestruct's original question. Read slowly now, move your lips if you need to... "If your country was invaded..."
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane
As an American, I would. Without hesitation.
If I were living crushed under the boot of a sadistic thug like Saddam, Castro, or Kim Jong-il, and a liberating force came to overthrow the government, I would do anything I could to help the invaders.
Exactly my thoughts!
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Old 06-26-2005, 11:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Maybe an invasion is what we need to pull us together....... we sure as Hell aren't getting any closer to bettering ourselves with current government spewing hatred and talking about how only their side is right and the other 50% of the country is totally wrong and only wants to destroy us.

I proved I'd fight for my country invasion or not by having been in the Navy. By speaking out, signing petitions, attending fundraisers and demonstrating for causes I believe in....... in other words defending what freedoms we have left.
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Old 06-27-2005, 12:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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ok, honestly, i would fight, but mainly bc i do have an intensely patriotic streak.

the one thing i have to ask: how would you honestly know you are under the rule of a despotic government. Seriously, people adapt to whatever leadership they are under and they tend to stay down and try to keep out of the gov't's way. ok, not always, but honestly, wouldn't we have seen an iraqi civil war well before we jumped in? Or wouldn't there be an uprising in several other countries with despotic leaders...

Either way, i would jump in with the fury of a rabid hyena.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:56 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Hey, nobody badtalks the Swayze. Red Dawn should be in every honest Patriotic Americans movie collection, maybe with a little spot light and its own viewing case.

Anyways, if we were invaded, I think most people would stand up and fight at least if only by helping a resistance movement. Lets not forget I live in the South. Christ when Deer Hunting Season hits 60 percent attendence of most public schools drops for weeks. I feel sorry for the invading force, all of those humiliating polaroids of beer toting back country freedom fighters putting their corpses into suggestive sexual positions. Christ it would be an epidemic unto itself.

Think about that though. What if we were invaded, and the South played a major role in the resistance that drove the invaders out. Think about that, reparations for the civil war anyone? I know of certain proud northerners who would silently curse under the table when they were forced to buy drinks for the john deere toting old boy when he walked in the bar. Comments, rants, lets keep this one rolling.
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Old 06-27-2005, 08:09 AM   #25 (permalink)
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It's all about context, as others have said.

That said, I would likely resist if anyone tried to invade Canada... as it stands the only likely suspect would be the US and while it would be difficult to fight back I can assure you it would be a good fight.
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Old 06-27-2005, 09:04 AM   #26 (permalink)
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What he said.
Can I ditto a ditto?

Anyways I love Red Dawn. It may be full of crap but I love it.
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Old 06-27-2005, 09:48 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I would likely resist if anyone tried to invade Canada... as it stands the only likely suspect would be the US and while it would be difficult to fight back I can assure you it would be a good fight.
OK...fair enough. And, to be honest, that didn't work out so hot for us in 1813, did it?
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Old 06-27-2005, 10:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Sheesh, people. I didn't say it was a good production and I also didn't realize this was a movie critic's topic. I referenced it only in conjunction with Mr. SelfDestruct's original question. Read slowly now, move your lips if you need to... "If your country was invaded..."
Ummm dramatic over reaction?

I don't think anyone was critiquing you or your judgement so chill out, relax, have a beer.

Or did you already report it as a troll post
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Old 06-27-2005, 11:28 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
It's all about context, as others have said.

That said, I would likely resist if anyone tried to invade Canada... as it stands the only likely suspect would be the US and while it would be difficult to fight back I can assure you it would be a good fight.

As a Canadian I would definitely fight back. But who is going to invide us???? Nobody ever has before... oops I forgot, just Americans...

anybody ever read Ultimatum by Richard Rohmer?
americans attack canada... a neat little what if?

http://www.ffbooks.co.uk/n3/n18916.htm
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Old 06-27-2005, 11:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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It all depends on the situation. Ultimately I care more about the current and future of my wife and child than anything else so I'd so whatever necessary to keep them safe.
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Old 06-27-2005, 11:40 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I voted yes, I would fight to defend the american government. If I were living under the rule of a government that murdered, stole, raped and otherwise tortured it's own people, I would immediatly join any force that promised to remove said government.
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Old 06-27-2005, 05:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Ok, let me throw a slightly different question out there. If a country (let's say Communist China or a resurrected Soviet Russia,) whose government you have seen as contradictory to your personal political and religious values were the coutry in question (for the US, assume that they bullied Mexico into cooperating and were pouring over the border,) would you support an extremely corrupt US government who violated the human and civil rights of its citizens through indefinite martial law but still allowed you to freely practice your religion and vote in elections?

I'm trying to create a hypothetical situation in which you would be in the same situation as the Iraqis. The problem I'm having here is that I don't know of any TFP members who believe that the authority to rule in government comes solely from God, so we can't think in the same way. I'm trying this question because it puts us in a situation in which we are oppressed, but the alternative is a government that goes against our moral and ethical standards.
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Old 06-27-2005, 05:24 PM   #33 (permalink)
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iīd fight against an invading army or any corrupt criminal administration killing the country from within. The latter being a much more plausible scenario.
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Old 06-27-2005, 05:55 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct
Ok, let me throw a slightly different question out there. If a country (let's say Communist China or a resurrected Soviet Russia,) whose government you have seen as contradictory to your personal political and religious values were the coutry in question (for the US, assume that they bullied Mexico into cooperating and were pouring over the border,) would you support an extremely corrupt US government who violated the human and civil rights of its citizens through indefinite martial law but still allowed you to freely practice your religion and vote in elections?

I'm trying to create a hypothetical situation in which you would be in the same situation as the Iraqis. The problem I'm having here is that I don't know of any TFP members who believe that the authority to rule in government comes solely from God, so we can't think in the same way. I'm trying this question because it puts us in a situation in which we are oppressed, but the alternative is a government that goes against our moral and ethical standards.
You are grasping at straws I'm afraid.

Iraq has been a secular government for quite some time. So while you may have sunni's out of power fighting to get their power back, and you have imported religious terrorists from across the mideast, itís a unique situation which doesn't translate well.

The closest real world example you could get would be the soviet resistance to the Nazi invasion, but since the Nazis were welcomed until it was learned they were worse than Stalin (at least worse than Stalin until after the war, then its very debatable) it doesn't work to compare it to Iraq.

So if I were an Iraqi citizen who knew anything about world history I'd be first in line to help the coalition.

There is no hypothetical comparision you can make to justify the terrorist attacks I'm afraid.
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Old 06-27-2005, 06:06 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Hell yeah I'd fight back!
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Old 06-27-2005, 06:50 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
You are grasping at straws I'm afraid.

Iraq has been a secular government for quite some time. So while you may have sunni's out of power fighting to get their power back, and you have imported religious terrorists from across the mideast, itís a unique situation which doesn't translate well.

The closest real world example you could get would be the soviet resistance to the Nazi invasion, but since the Nazis were welcomed until it was learned they were worse than Stalin (at least worse than Stalin until after the war, then its very debatable) it doesn't work to compare it to Iraq.

So if I were an Iraqi citizen who knew anything about world history I'd be first in line to help the coalition.

There is no hypothetical comparision you can make to justify the terrorist attacks I'm afraid.
Please clarify your position on Nazis being welcomed in Russia (was there a reason you referred to them as Soviets - a government that did not yet exist?) My history texts seem to have omitted that rosie relationship.

Last edited by Elphaba; 06-27-2005 at 06:55 PM.. Reason: May I add...
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:21 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct
Ok, let me throw a slightly different question out there. If a country (let's say Communist China or a resurrected Soviet Russia,) whose government you have seen as contradictory to your personal political and religious values were the coutry in question (for the US, assume that they bullied Mexico into cooperating and were pouring over the border,) would you support an extremely corrupt US government who violated the human and civil rights of its citizens through indefinite martial law but still allowed you to freely practice your religion and vote in elections?

I'm trying to create a hypothetical situation in which you would be in the same situation as the Iraqis. The problem I'm having here is that I don't know of any TFP members who believe that the authority to rule in government comes solely from God, so we can't think in the same way. I'm trying this question because it puts us in a situation in which we are oppressed, but the alternative is a government that goes against our moral and ethical standards.
By your hypothetical and using that as a guide..... I would fight to the death against a government that went against my moral and ethical standards.

So yes, against a Chinese or Soviet (if they were still around) I would fight to my death.

As Pedro said, it is much more plausible especially as heightened as politics, greed, powerlust and partisanship hatred is, that we may see ourselves crumble from within. To which again, if in all honesty we were to go into a depression and the administartion did nothing to help the people, I would form a rebellion..... hopefully a peaceful one with demonstrations and elections, but in an extreme case where the party in control did all they could to keep their power and not listen to the people....... I'd take up arms..... or move to Canada and wait to see if things changed.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:26 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elphaba
Please clarify your position on Nazis being welcomed in Russia (was there a reason you referred to them as Soviets - a government that did not yet exist?) My history texts seem to have omitted that rosie relationship.
Stalin and Hitler hated each other. They both used their uneasy peace to build troops and fight each other.

Stalin was content to let the Germans move West at the beginning of WW2 because he didn't believe his country was ready for a showdown. He preferred to remain neutral until he was ready.

Stalin was quite content defending his own borders and nothing else. It was Churchill and FDR that needed him to drive the Germans Westward and contain them.

As for the Russians welcoming the Nazis that's a new one on me.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:41 PM   #39 (permalink)
Deja Moo
 
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Me, too, Pan. But I could have missed that day of scholarship in gradeschool.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Quote:
When the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, some Ukrainians, particularly in the west, welcomed what they saw as liberation from Communist rule, but this did not last as they quickly came to understand the nature of Nazi rule. Nazi brutality was directed principally against Ukraine's Jews (of whom an estimated 1 million were killed), but also against many other Ukrainians. Babyn Yar in Kiev was the site of one of the most horrific Nazi massacres of Ukrainian Jews, ethnic Ukrainians, and many others. Kiev and other parts of the country were heavily damaged.
http://www.historyofnations.net/asia/ukraine.html

Sigh, I know you guys have a different political point of view, but please, try to be civil.
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