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Old 07-23-2005, 07:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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London Calling

"London Calling"

London calling to the faraway towns
Now war is declared, and battle come down
London calling to the underworld
Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls
London calling, now don't look to us
Phoney Beatlemania has bitten the dust
London calling, see we ain't got no swing
'Cept for the ring of that truncheon thing

[Chorus 1:]
The ice age is coming, the sun's zooming in
Meltdown expected, the wheat is growing thin
Engines stop running, but I have no fear
'Cause London is drowning, and I live by the river

London calling to the imitation zone
Forget it, brother, you can go it alone
London calling to the zombies of death
Quit holding out, and draw another breath
London calling, and I don't wanna shout
But when we were talking, I saw you nodding out
London calling, see we ain't got no high
Except for that one with the yellowy eyes

[Chorus 2: (x2)]
The ice age is coming, the sun's zooming in
Engines stop running, the wheat is growing thin
A nuclear era, but I have no fear
'Cause London is drowning, and I live by the river

Now get this

London calling, yes, I was there, too
An' you know what they said? Well, some of it was true!
London calling at the top of the dial
After all this, won't you give me a smile?
London calling

I never felt so much alike [fading] alike alike alike

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The man shot dead at a London subway station was a 27-year-old Brazilian citizen, British police said Saturday, in what they called a "tragedy."

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," a Scotland Yard statement said.
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=TopStories

http://news.sympatico.msn.ca/Home

I know it's not a popular topic, but really. Just another forgotten person blown away because why,... he looked like a terrorist? What does a terrorist look like?

I'm all for finding terrorists but does anyone see the hypocrisy firmly entrenched in how a suspected TERRORIST is gunned down. And by police that usually don't carry firearms. Unreal.

I can understand some democracies using such methods but really, who now is safe. Probably the terrorist that walks and doesn't run.
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Last edited by OFKU0; 07-23-2005 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OFKU0
I know it's not a popular topic, but really. Just another forgotten person blown away because why,... he looked like a terrorist? What does a terrorist look like?

I'm all for finding terrorists but does anyone see the hypocrisy firmly entrenched in how a suspected TERRORIST is gunned down. And by police that usually don't carry firearms. Unreal.

I can understand some democracies using such methods but really, who now is safe. Probably the terrorist that walks and doesn't run.

Um, he didn't so much LOOK like a terrorist, he ACTED like a terrorist. He was wearing weather inappropriate clothing (heavy, bulky coat on a day when the temp. was 71F), he left a building which apparently was under surveillance for terrorist activity, he ran from police, he jumped the turnstile, and still refused to stop when they told him to stop or be shot.

If you make a cop think you're about to kill him or her, you WILL die, even if you're joking.
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosenose
Um, he didn't so much LOOK like a terrorist, he ACTED like a terrorist. He was wearing weather inappropriate clothing (heavy, bulky coat on a day when the temp. was 71F), he left a building which apparently was under surveillance for terrorist activity, he ran from police, he jumped the turnstile, and still refused to stop when they told him to stop or be shot.

If you make a cop think you're about to kill him or her, you WILL die, even if you're joking.
Yeah... that's a good excuse... five shots.

I like to wear a coat when it's hot... so what? I'm a target now?
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Yeah... that's a good excuse... five shots.

I like to wear a coat when it's hot... so what? I'm a target now?

Quote:
On Friday morning, the unidentified man entered the Stockwell station dressed in a padded coat, and ignored a police request to halt. Police chased him through the station, wrestled him to the floor of a train carriage and shot him to death.

One witness told the BBC the man appeared to have a bomb belt and wires protruding from his coat.
The man was doing a bit more then just wearing a puffy coat.


I think there isn't enough info on the incident to make a sound judgement yet. However, given the timing and circumstance I don't think this is anything to go ape about.

Last edited by Mantus; 07-23-2005 at 07:45 PM..
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
Yeah... that's a good excuse... five shots.

I like to wear a coat when it's hot... so what? I'm a target now?
It's from one of "Murphy's law of combat"..."when in doubt, empty the magazine." When you are dealing with somebody who you think wants to kill you, you "kill him a lot."

Just wearing a coat isn't enough to get you in trouble. Wearing an inappropriate coat, while exiting a suspected terrorist hideout, and then running from the police WILL get you in trouble.

My advice to you if you like to wear heavy coats on the subway in the middle of summer is to STOP if the police scream "STOP!" at you. You also might want to raise your hands and not shove them in your pockets.

BTW, would it be any better or worse if he'd only been shot in the head once or twice? He'd still be dead, yes?
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I agree that it's a terrible tragedy, but WTF??? Running from the cops is bad enough, but unless he had been in a cave the last few weeks, he knew what had been going on.

I really can't blame the bobbies for killing a guy under these circumstances.
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Old 07-23-2005, 08:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Sounds like a case of suicide by police to me.

Can't believe anyone would do that otherwise.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm really shocked that people are siding with the police on this one. Shoot first, ask questions later. I really do not like where this anti-terrorism thing is heading.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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All of you are just amazing. I can't believe that all of you are siding with the cops too.

But of course, this is half a world away and you have no connection to this guy so who cares right? Until a cop kills your, brother, sister, cousin, nephew, etc becsaue they were wearing some jacket, it might hit a little more close to home.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Running from police is generally a bad idea. I'd be all over them if he were one of those "just standing in his doorway" victims, but I've yet to hear an account that didn't describe the guy as going on an extended fleeing spree. Unfortunate he chose to flee, it's tragic he was killed, but not surprising given timing vs. the bombings.

Edit: One of my favorite albums of all time though. Still have the vinyl. RIP Joe.
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Last edited by cyrnel; 07-23-2005 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i hate to say it, but if i were in the cop's shoes, i would have probably have reacted in the same way. This guy wasn't just standing around ignoring a cop's orders or anything, he was actively trying to get away while at a suspicious area while wearing suspicious clothing and acting in a suspcious manner. Now, i'm sure that if you came out of a terminal, looked 'suspicious' and stopped when the police told you to, you'd probably be talked to, then let go, no harm done, just a few minutse of time.

so, in this case, from the little info given, i'm forced to side with the cop. it is unfortunate, but seriously, what were they supposed to think
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardknock
All of you are just amazing. I can't believe that all of you are siding with the cops too.

But of course, this is half a world away and you have no connection to this guy so who cares right? Until a cop kills your, brother, sister, cousin, nephew, etc becsaue they were wearing some jacket, it might hit a little more close to home.
ditto, it was obvious innocent people will pay for the attacks, and here is an example. unfortunate for his loved ones that are now in misery over his loss.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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actualy, i spoke too soon. I just re-read and it said they wrestled the guy to the ground, then unloaded into him...sorry, but if you have a guy down and relatively under control, there is no need to shoot him. If he was a suicide bomber, then the mere act of wrestling him to the ground would probably have caused him to set off the bomb and hell, even the chase would have caused the guy to panic and blow himself up. the mere fact the cops got close enough to take him down is a slight indication that maybe he wasn't involved.

Also, didn't realize that the police were undercover...in that case, yea, i'd probably run...

dammit, so confusing.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lebell
I agree that it's a terrible tragedy, but WTF??? Running from the cops is bad enough, but unless he had been in a cave the last few weeks, he knew what had been going on.

I really can't blame the bobbies for killing a guy under these circumstances.
WTF has been my reaction as a whole to the politics board lately

Had this guy in fact been a terrorist, acted exactly the same way, and the bobbies did not shoot him, I'm sure we would have some of the same people complaining about the futile and ineffective 'war on terror'.

This doesn't belong in the poltics board, but should be in nonsense for a Darwin award.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by samcol
I'm really shocked that people are siding with the police on this one. Shoot first, ask questions later. I really do not like where this anti-terrorism thing is heading.

Not quite. Instead of "shoot first, ask questions later", it was "Watch. Watch. Watch. See something suspicious. Follow. Follow. Follow. Notice something that looks REALLY suspicious. Approach with caution. Order suspect to stop. Chase after suspect. Watch suspect jump the turnstile to escape INTO a confined place where he can cause the most damage. Watch him ignore "stop or I'll shoot!" orders. Watch the officers, who are clearly in fear of their lives, act in the defense of themselves and others."

Why does this remind me of the song that goes: "I wasn't gonna run from the cops, but I was high."
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rdr4evr
ditto, it was obvious innocent people will pay for the attacks, and here is an example. unfortunate for his loved ones that are now in misery over his loss.
Just like "No means NO!", "Stop! means STOP!"

The dead guy caused it. He could have easily stopped it at any point. He chose not to. And shooting him in the head at point blank range just means that there's less chance of injuring somebody innocent.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:12 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hardknock
All of you are just amazing. I can't believe that all of you are siding with the cops too.
In most of the US, based upon the reports we have, the police would have acted within lethal force guidelines. If the cops reasonably believe that a suspect poses an immediate threat to their lives or the lives of others, it's generally legal to shoot the suspect.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:35 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moosenose
Just like "No means NO!", "Stop! means STOP!"

The dead guy caused it. He could have easily stopped it at any point. He chose not to. And shooting him in the head at point blank range just means that there's less chance of injuring somebody innocent.
he was tackled and there was no need for him to be murdered simply because he was wearing a jacket. suicide bomber? i'm sure he would have detonated before being tackled if that was case. this is a case of police abusing their power, plain and simple.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr4evr
he was tackled and there was no need for him to be murdered simply because he was wearing a jacket. suicide bomber? i'm sure he would have detonated before being tackled if that was case. this is a case of police abusing their power, plain and simple.
Your reply seems to show that you haven't read the whole story. He wasn't shot "simply because he was wearing a jacket". He was shot because the police had every reason to believe he was a terrorirst, because he *acted* like one.

This was a case of police doing exactly what they were told to do, plain and simple.

If this was a suicide bomber, tackling and holding him down is NOT ENOUGH to stop him. He can (and will) still push the big red button. The only way to be sure he won't do that, is to shoot him. And if you shoot him, you shoot more than once, to be absolutely sure that he's dead.

The fact that he wasn't a terrorist is tragic. The incident will be investigated, and if the cops did something wrong, they will be prosecuted. However, I very much doubt that they did anything wrong. I believe that these police officers followed their "rules of engagement" to the letter, and this incident was a direct result of that. If anything, the rules may have to be amended.

Just a thought: if this had indeed been a terrorist, most people would be happy that these cops shot him. (I say "most people", because there will obviously be people that would have wanted a fair trial instead...)

Last edited by Dragonlich; 07-24-2005 at 12:28 AM..
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I dont have a lot I would say about this here,,, but the use of the word "tragedy" in the police statement seems to me particularly grotesque. I think the word I would use is "murder"
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:36 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dragonlich
Your reply seems to show that you haven't read the whole story. He wasn't shot "simply because he was wearing a jacket". He was shot because the police had every reason to believe he was a terrorirst, because he *acted* like one.
if they tackled him, they would have no reason to murder him had they not had the jacket excuse once they had him down, aside from the fact that he was "acting" like a "terrorist", he could and would have pushed the "big red button" you speak of before he was tackled, or when he was. had he still had easy access to the "big red button" once he was tackled, he would have pushed it before they killed him, it only takes a split second. Also, they weren't in uniform, correct? anyone would run in that situation.

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Old 07-24-2005, 01:11 AM   #22 (permalink)
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he was tackled and there was no need for him to be murdered simply because he was wearing a jacket. suicide bomber? i'm sure he would have detonated before being tackled if that was case. this is a case of police abusing their power, plain and simple.
He wasn't murdered, he was shot in self-defense. You say you're sure he would have detonated before being tackled. How do you know what goes through the mind of a potential suicide bomber? Based upon the information presented so far, it was a righteous shooting. If you can't play with the Big Dogs, stay under the porch.

Quote:
anyone would run in that situation.
No, only a coward with a guilty conscience would run in that situation. If somebody yelled "stop or I'll shoot you", do you think most people would run? Really?

Last edited by moosenose; 07-24-2005 at 01:20 AM..
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:12 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I dont have a lot I would say about this here,,, but the use of the word "tragedy" in the police statement seems to me particularly grotesque. I think the word I would use is "murder"
Sorry, but murder is generally defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought." This killing was neither unlawful or done with malice aforethought.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr4evr
if they tackled him, they would have no reason to murder him had they not had the jacket excuse once they had him down, aside from the fact that he was "acting" like a "terrorist", he could and would have pushed the "big red button" you speak of before he was tackled, or when he was. had he still had easy access to the "big red button" once he was tackled, he would have pushed it before they killed him, it only takes a split second.
1) Like moosenose said: you don't know what a suicide bomber thinks.
2) If we follow your reasoning, a terrorist being held down by the police would simply have wait a few seconds before blowing himself up. After all, if he doesn't blow himself up immediately, police won't shoot him, allowing him to push the button anyway.
3) The guy was a moron for acting the way he did. According to the BBC, he was chased by 20 plain clothes police officers; he jumped over obstacles, ran down the stairs, and into the train. IMO, that is not normal behaviour; it is exactly what I imagine a suicide bomber would do. Therefore, if I had been one of those cops, I would have shot him too. After all, what's the alternative: if he had been a terrorist, we would have dozens of dead people, and everyone would have been angry at the police for not stopping him when they had the chance.

A tragic accident, but I'd say the victim was to blame, not the police.
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Old 07-24-2005, 03:40 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Yeah... that's a good excuse... five shots.

I like to wear a coat when it's hot... so what? I'm a target now?
If the guy has a bomb strapped to him - as the police thought - and he RAN INTO A SUBWAY SYSTEM THAT HAD JUST BEEN BOMBED SEVERAL TIMES, they had no choice. You cannot wrestle with a guy who may have his finger on the trigger of a bomb that would kill dozens. 5 shots to the head is appropriate to minimize the chances of everybody blowing up.

It's an unfortunate incident. But the guy ran from the police who were actively hunting terrorists. The guy died because of his own stupidity and panic. The cops did their job as far as the information we have tells us.
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:17 AM   #26 (permalink)
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More came out in the news... the cops were plainsclothes and pulled guns on him...

It has been suggested they scared the shit out of him and his instinct was to run... also as a Brazillian wearing a coat in the "heat" is not out of the ordinary. English heat is cold to them...

It was a bad situation I can agree...
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:19 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moosenose


No, only a coward with a guilty conscience would run in that situation.
That's the most asinine thing I think I've read on this thread. Are seriously insulting this poor guy who was mistakenly shot? What does courage have to do with anything...

You have a very skewed perspective. In the end, none of us were there and can't say what triggered his flight response or why the cops shot (although we can certainly guess given the situation).

All I can say is if a guy (not a cop) just a guy with a gun (they were plainclothes not bobbies) pointed at me my flight or fight would be running overtime...
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Last edited by Charlatan; 07-24-2005 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:55 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You guys amaze me. We don't even know the full story and you guys are going out on a limb to demonize the victim and condemn or paint the police as heros as if you saw the whole incident with your own eyes.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosenose

No, only a coward with a guilty conscience would run in that situation. If somebody yelled "stop or I'll shoot you", do you think most people would run? Really?
Ok, moose, some stranger in plain clothers yealls at you, STOP OR I'll SHOOT YOU!!!. What are you going to do? You have no idea if he's a cop or a crackhead.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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You guys amaze me. We don't even know the full story and you guys are going out on a limb to demonize the victim and condemn or paint the police as heros as if you saw the whole incident with your own eyes.

So let's never discuss newsworthy incidents until 2 years after the fact and we've had a full public enquiry?
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:31 PM   #31 (permalink)
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It seems to me so far that it comes down to two possibilities:

If the police had the suspect under control and then shot him, it was manslaughter or non-premeditated murder.

Otherwise, it sounds like a rational and justified action to take. Perhaps they should've made it more clear that they were police, but that doesn't change the very reasonable perception of imminent danger.
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:26 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Ok, there is some new information bringing bought up here. If the police were plainclothes, then I can see the guy doing exactly what he did, so then this goes from "idiotic person" to "unfortunate tragedy". However, I won't blame the police either, because unless something else comes out they seem to have been doing exactly what they should.
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
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You know, they had the guy under surveillance and were following him. Why are people surprised the cops were plainclothed? It's tough to follow someone discreetly wearing a Bobby's outift.

The only thing I have not heard was whether they shouted "Police" or flashed a badge. Given that that is about the first thing they teach you in cop school, at least in North America, I'd be surprised if they didn't, and that'd be about the only that would get me to think the cops, more than the deceased, are to blame for the situation and outcome.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:16 PM   #34 (permalink)
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All I can say is if a guy (not a cop) just a guy with a gun (they were plainclothes not bobbies) pointed at me my flight or fight would be running overtime...
So, you don't think they identified themselves as police when they pulled guns and chased him? Do you really think you could outrun twenty guys shooting at you?

Being confronted with one plainclothes person screaming that they are police and pointing a gun at you is one thing, he might be a robber or something. With 20 of them doing it, the chances of it being a robber diminishes greatly. And you'd think that if you were scared because people were chasing you, you wouldn't essentially run into a dead end, you might instead run somewhere that normally had uniformed police present.

Your point about fight or flight is a good one. Personally, if I had somebody that I thought was a criminal or twenty after me, I'd open fire while taking cover, with the intent of staying put until the Cavalry arrived. I sure as hell wouldn't do something to put others in danger, like running into a crowded place and using other people for cover...
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:21 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Ok, moose, some stranger in plain clothers yealls at you, STOP OR I'll SHOOT YOU!!!. What are you going to do? You have no idea if he's a cop or a crackhead.
I'd open fire while taking cover. Now if they yelled "Police! Stop or I'll shoot", I'd look to see if they are indeed police officers (I know virtually every local cop, both uniformed and plainclothes, by sight) and take it from there.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:29 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosenose
I'd open fire while taking cover. Now if they yelled "Police! Stop or I'll shoot", I'd look to see if they are indeed police officers (I know virtually every local cop, both uniformed and plainclothes, by sight) and take it from there.
You "virtually" know every cop whether their in plainclothes or not? Define virtually. I that that THIS is the most idiotic statement you've made in this thread. How can you possibly know who every cop is? Have you been in out of the big house long enough to know? Or do you live in a town small enough to need a sheriff and one deputy?

And you'd open fire too??? On the cops? I thought we were talking about cops possibly committing murder here. Now, if I follow your advice, I'm sure to get my ass pumped full of lead.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:45 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hardknock
You "virtually" know every cop whether their in plainclothes or not? Define virtually. I that that THIS is the most idiotic statement you've made in this thread. How can you possibly know who every cop is? Have you been in out of the big house long enough to know? Or do you live in a town small enough to need a sheriff and one deputy?

And you'd open fire too??? On the cops? I thought we were talking about cops possibly committing murder here. Now, if I follow your advice, I'm sure to get my ass pumped full of lead.
My knowing the cops comes from working with them. If they are on the street arresting people, I know them...maybe not by name, but certainly by sight. If they're admin (by this I mean either supervisory or records), I know them. Now there may be some meter-maids and support personnel out there that I don't know, but they aren't armed (or sworn) anyway. As far as the number of officers, there are well over 200 sworn officers on just one of the police forces that I deal with.

As far as opening fire on the cops, I'd never do that if I knew that they were cops. Around here, the cops, by law, must first identify themselves by yelling the word "POLICE!" first. There have been cases where police failed to do this and were fired upon, and the shooter walked because they didn't ID themselves, and a reasonable person would have thought his or her life was in danger, so it was legal self-defense.

Last edited by moosenose; 07-24-2005 at 02:57 PM..
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:37 AM   #38 (permalink)
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sorry, still haven't heard if the cops identified themselves.

also, the guy was brazillian...and maybe he did do something, so he did have a reason to run from the cops, but maybe he was just a purse snatcher who happened to be wearing a large jacket. Maybe he couldn't understand the cop. I do know that i have driven away from police officers that i couldn't immediately identify. I would only stop when they start running and flashing badges.

Hell, maybe the guy didn't speak very good english and just saw people chasing and screaming after him. I'd run in that case.


I don't think it is easy to sit here and judge either, but i can see how i would have reacted if i were either of the people involved. I still think that the police over-reacted AFTER they put the guy down, by that point, the guy is pretty much under control, although, again, if he really was a suicide bomber, he would have waited until the cops were close and then would have pushed the button.

I still think it's sad that this is the result of this war on terror.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:18 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I can't understand the mentality of many on the left at all-terrorists attack innocent civillians and what do you hear "we need to understand them, it's because of western imperialism/christian crusading/whatever that they did that". But when officers of the law shoot someone acting suspiciously, there's no equal outcry to understand how officers after two close, tragic, bombings might be in a heightened state of agitation and don't want to wait around to shoot a suspicious acting individual AFTER his bombing has made the evening news. It seems like certain elements of the left won't be satisfied until everyone in the west is dead.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:41 AM   #40 (permalink)
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hrm

Not sure.

Last edited by JoseFlanders; 03-15-2008 at 09:38 PM.. Reason: hrm
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