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Old 08-31-2005, 08:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
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And So....it begins

Or...I could simply be paranoid. I can only hope this is not the first step in an ominous future for the United States. I do wonder about the Energy Bill though....hmmmmm.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4be.htm

BUSH CONSIDERS ADDRESS TO NATION; CALL FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:20:34 ET

President Bush is considering an address to the nation asking citizens to conserve energy, a top White House source says.

Bush ordered the release of oil from federal petroleum reserves to help refiners affected by Hurricane Katrina.

Bush returned to Washington on Wednesday to oversee the federal response to the historic disaster. He plans to coordinate federal efforts, across more than a dozen agencies, to assist hurricane victims.

"Still undecided is whether or not to call for a nationwide effort to reduce energy consumption during this emergency," a top Bush source explains. "It is seriously being considered."

A second White House source says there are no plans for the president to address the country on gas.

Developing...
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Two things stike me as odd here:

1) He didn't cut his vacation short until today? That just isn't good optics, regardless of what he was doing while on vacation.
2) What's to consider? Regardless of the need, it would be a good way for Americans to come together in the face of this disaster. Definately good optics.
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:15 AM   #3 (permalink)
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With Bush's present approval rating, I think it is likely that Democrats would run out and buy SUV's if this guy said "Please don't use gas".

If he sprouted wings and took flight, his opponents would criticize his newfound skill as being "Too noisy and flappy".

What can he possibly do to 'pull people together in this time of crisis'?
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
"Still undecided is whether or not to call for a nationwide effort to reduce energy consumption during this emergency," a top Bush source explains. "It is seriously being considered."
"It is seriously being considered."?!? Hooboy...OK, with the price of a tank of gas being where it is, anyone that needs to conserve, which is most of us, already is...trust me. Those that do not need to conserve, are not going to be swayed by the President interupting Law And Order, or CSI: NY, to give a "We're all in this together" speech.
I don't need vacation boy telling me that I need to conserve...the sign at the gas station already told me that.
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
I don't need vacation boy telling me that I need to conserve...the sign at the gas station already told me that.
Amen. I am very very glad I thought ahead and bought gas Sunday morning...now I'm going to have to stretch that tank until kingdom come in order to keep my budget intact. That means more walking, biking, taking the bus, and carpooling. Thank goodness I live in a city where all of this is feasible. But what about those who don't? My parents live in a very rural, economically depressed area. There is a bus system but the majority of the county is not served by it. These people are going to start facing the following choice: buy gas to get to work or buy other necessities. Those other necessities are going to go up in price as fuel costs rise. The poor will just get poorer and the rich richer; this seems like a hell of a way to support the American dream.
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I hate gas prices as much as everyone, but honestly unless you're in a business where gas is vital (landscaping or shipping are two that come to mind) I don't see this being that big of a deal. Doing the math, I use around 12-15 gallons per week, the recent price jumps ($.50 in 2 days) mean that on average, ill be spending a whole $7 more per week on gas. Now if prices continue to rise, it might be more problematic, but if it's just for a month or so, I don't see the big issue (especially considering that gas prices in most of Europe are still much higher than ours).

What worries me more is the knee-jerk reaction of releasing some of the strategic reserves. Releasing more oil won't help the gas situation, especially since the problem with gas is mainly at the refinery point. Also, this is occurring during ever rising profits for the oil industry, which doesn't seem to jive with what should be happening during a real oil shortage (profits should be fairly stable, unless there's some gouging).
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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We do remember the gas lines of the late 70's don't we?

I'm not sure where you want to go with this tecoya as this is in direct relation to a natural disaster. So if you want to extrapolate into some oil starved future thats fine, but the two are unrelated at this time.

I'm still going to be driving my Tahoe, alone, to work
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I am in a buisiness that relies on gas to survive- I travle to shows to sell my wares, and let me tell you this sucks big time- being a one man shop and very small buisiness means that every penny counts, and I am counting a lot less of them on account of this- the only thing softening it somewhat is that I had the luck to diversify and get some local sales outlets up and going before this hit- and while I will weather it, its just because I planned for something like this a while ago- seems like now would be the time for car dealers to hit the hybrid thing hard.......and a cargo hybrid would rock too.....
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
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It bothers me how complacent people are about this.

People are stupid, and most people don't know WHY the prices are going up. They see $3, they might gripe, but they accept it - and that my friends, is scary.

Where's the civil disobedience? Mass theft? Lashing out?

It's just very disturbing. Then again, these are the same people that don't blink an eye at the patriot act, so it's not all surprising. How depressing.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:07 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
We do remember the gas lines of the late 70's don't we?
What the hell? You think we're all as old as you?
Oh...wait. I am that old.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do remember those whacky days. I remember gas lines two blocks long. I remember gas stations closed because they had no gas to sell. I remember having to get 10 gallons of gas on odd or even numbered days, depending on whether your license plate ended in an odd or even number. I remember federally mandated 55mph speed limits. I remember Richard Nixon in the White House. Hell, I even remember Welcome Back Kotter. None of which...I see anymore.
Now...where the hell did I put my mood ring? Was it in my leisure suit pocket, or in the box with my Pet Rock?
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire
I am in a buisiness that relies on gas to survive- I travle to shows to sell my wares, and let me tell you this sucks big time- being a one man shop and very small buisiness means that every penny counts, and I am counting a lot less of them on account of this- the only thing softening it somewhat is that I had the luck to diversify and get some local sales outlets up and going before this hit- and while I will weather it, its just because I planned for something like this a while ago- seems like now would be the time for car dealers to hit the hybrid thing hard.......and a cargo hybrid would rock too.....
From what I've been told the hybrids have been selling out for quite a while, what they really need to do is get the costs down on them so that a 'normal' car is a lot closer in price to a hybrid.

As of my last check a few months ago a hybrid was running about 10k more than a normal car of equal features. Thats a nice chunk of change. I worked it out and at the gas prices then it would take me something like 6 years of driving my TAHOE (read guzzler) to equal that 10k and 'break even' with a hybrid.

Thats not good economics.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
What the hell? You think we're all as old as you?
Oh...wait. I am that old.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do remember those whacky days. I remember gas lines two blocks long. I remember gas stations closed because they had no gas to sell. I remember having to get 10 gallons of gas on odd or even numbered days, depending on whether your license plate ended in an odd or even number. I remember federally mandated 55mph speed limits. I remember Richard Nixon in the White House. Hell, I even remember Welcome Back Kotter. None of which...I see anymore.
Now...where the hell did I put my mood ring? Was it in my leisure suit pocket, or in the box with my Pet Rock?
Bill you know by some quirk of fate, we will end up next to each other in the old folks home when that time comes.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompy
It bothers me how complacent people are about this.

People are stupid, and most people don't know WHY the prices are going up. They see $3, they might gripe, but they accept it - and that my friends, is scary.

Where's the civil disobedience? Mass theft? Lashing out?

It's just very disturbing. Then again, these are the same people that don't blink an eye at the patriot act, so it's not all surprising. How depressing.
These are also the same people who have families, run businesses, and employ most of the nation. But I guess I'm stupid for not dropping my responsibilities, paying my employees, and not chanting in the streets while looting the Wal-Mart.

Edit:and next time, everyone should quit posting while I am writting a current post so it doesn't look like I'm spamming
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:20 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm not sure why everyone is all that surprised at the higher cost of fuel. Sure it sucks but hasn't the cost of fuel in the US been artificially low for some time? Seems to me that your cost per gallon is just falling into line with what most other nations pay for their fuel (and it's still largely cheaper than what many are paying).

Can someone clear this up if I've got it wrong.

(maybe Mr. Spam-a-lot Ustwo? )
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It doesn't justify a 66%+ spike in just a year's time. Just because we pay lower doesn't mean it suddenly has to go up.

I personally enjoy how they're usin the "Gas is $3 because of the hurricane" excuse. Funny because... gas was trending upwards towards $3 long before that hurricane ever existed.

I bet you they'll milk the hurricane.. watch as they try to get gas even higher. I have a strange feeling we'll be seeing $4 soon (of course, while people still accept it and think nothing of it).

Personally, I only live a mile from work so it doesn't affect me. I'm simply bothered that most people don't care enough to do something about it.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Since I remember all the same things BOR does...Im going to do my part and not race around town this weekend to go to hobby lobby, joann's, michaels or the old time pottery for yet more wedding supplies....I will keep my old self at home in bed all weekend....hmmm I'll make Dave stay there too....is that sacrifice or not

I only work 11 miles from home....I can go two weeks on a tank of gas...unfortunately this is the week I need to fill up....and even with my kroger card .10 cents off I'll still be paying 2.69
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:27 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompy
It bothers me how complacent people are about this.

People are stupid, and most people don't know WHY the prices are going up. They see $3, they might gripe, but they accept it - and that my friends, is scary.

Where's the civil disobedience? Mass theft? Lashing out?

It's just very disturbing. Then again, these are the same people that don't blink an eye at the patriot act, so it's not all surprising. How depressing.
Um...there should be civil disobedience about this.....why? It's a commodity, its price goes up when the demand is up and/or the supply is down. We have no RIGHT to cheap gas, and in fact government subsidies (and lower gasoline taxes) have kept the price of gas pretty cheap in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world. If you really want to do something about it, reduce your consumption. Car pool. Walk. Bike. Take mass transit. This might be worthy of a protest or two, or a careful re-examination of U.S. energy policy and financial support of oil companies, but hardly worth rioting in the streets. The price is going up because refineries in the gulf are likely to have been damaged due to the hurricane, which means less production capacity, which means reduced supply = higher prices. I don't see anything sinister about this at all, and I'm a knee-jerk, left-wing conspiracy theorist There was something a lot fishier about the California Enron energy cost fixing a few years ago, and that DID cause some civil disobedience and unrest (people refusing to pay their bills, etc.). But this is just good old fashioned market forces, looks like to me.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurkette
But this is just good old fashioned market forces, looks like to me.
Or...is it?
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:43 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
Bill you know by some quirk of fate, we will end up next to each other in the old folks home when that time comes.
Old folks home? Who the hell is going to be able to afford the old folks home by the time we're ready to...Oh...wait...I forgot, you're an orthodontist.
Never mind.
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:20 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompy
It doesn't justify a 66%+ spike in just a year's time. Just because we pay lower doesn't mean it suddenly has to go up.

I personally enjoy how they're usin the "Gas is $3 because of the hurricane" excuse. Funny because... gas was trending upwards towards $3 long before that hurricane ever existed.

I bet you they'll milk the hurricane.. watch as they try to get gas even higher. I have a strange feeling we'll be seeing $4 soon (of course, while people still accept it and think nothing of it).

Personally, I only live a mile from work so it doesn't affect me. I'm simply bothered that most people don't care enough to do something about it.
Who is "they?" we should talk to "them" about this.
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
From what I've been told the hybrids have been selling out for quite a while, what they really need to do is get the costs down on them so that a 'normal' car is a lot closer in price to a hybrid.

As of my last check a few months ago a hybrid was running about 10k more than a normal car of equal features. Thats a nice chunk of change. I worked it out and at the gas prices then it would take me something like 6 years of driving my TAHOE (read guzzler) to equal that 10k and 'break even' with a hybrid.

Thats not good economics.
I agree. Politics aside, this is an excellent point. I don't understand with the high demand for hybrids why aren't they (car manufacturers) making more to meet demand. I'm no economist but I always thought that as demand increases and price increases, producers get real excited and increase supply to meet that demand. It doesn;t seem tobe happening here.

What I really don't get is why there are mass incentives to buy big SUVs (tax credit of up to $60,000? right?) but only a one-time tax credit of $1500 if you buy a hybrid or something like that. I've been scratching my head over that one.

Anyways, I suppose I would love to buy a hybrid but the economics really doesn't make sense at all.
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Bush raised the tax credit on the hybrid to maybe 4k over two years (not sure right now) and I think the SUV incentive was a one time loophole.

It was designed to allow small businesses to buy light trucks but instead also covered the biggest of the SUV's.
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Old 08-31-2005, 01:13 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I bought my Toyota Prius at the end of April 2005, based on predictions of $3/gallon gas in the very near future. Total cost: $23,000. I drive across the NY border to PA every day to work, and when you add incidental mileage from other trips, I usually drive about 100 miles/day. I also make frequent trips to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, and other places in PA for my job. To date, my mileage on that Prius is 9,000+.

One of the reasons I bought the car was because of the one-time tax benefits. The federal government, at that time, was giving a $2,000 tax deduction on hybrid purchases. That, coupled with a New York State tax CREDIT of $2,000, would have given back to me about $2,500 of my purchase costs.

Now, with the passage of the federal energy bill, I will see at least a $1,200 federal tax credit - maybe even $2,000 - so I could get up to $4,000 back on my purchase.

I don't buy gas in New York State anymore, since their gas tax is higher than PA. I didn't see what gas in my neck of the woods was, but I would guess it is at or just under $3/gallon. In PA where I work, the gas was $2.89/gallon on the way home.

To fill up my 11.9 gallon tank at $2.89 is $35.7. I usually average 50.2 miles/gallon in the Prius, so I am getting close to 600 miles/tank when I run it down to fumes.
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Old 08-31-2005, 02:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
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....i just paid $22 for 7 gallons of gas...in south carolina at the cheapest place in town...

sorry, but nobody has to tell em to conserve gas today
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Old folks home? Who the hell is going to be able to afford the old folks home by the time we're ready to...Oh...wait...I forgot, you're an orthodontist.
Never mind.
I foresee a refrigerator crate under a bridge. Care to join me?
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Is anyone here currently using or personally know someone that owns a hydro or VO car? Do you have any feedback?

journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4563676/
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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ARGH - $3.19 per gallon in both the NY city I live in and the PA city I work in. And rumors of higher prices to boot! The school district I work for is projecting anywhere from $250,000-$300,000 in deficit just from increased gas prices.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You do realize that increased gas prices will be used as an excuse by people as well.
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:01 PM   #29 (permalink)
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...and where do you expect people to pull this money from? Using it as an excuse? Rightfully so.

You can't just double the gas prices and expect people to be financially set with all of this.

Let's say the avg person fills up once a week... (it's prob a bit more than that, but we'll use the lower one). If you were payin $150 a month in gas, you're now gonna be payin $350.

Many people aren't rich enough to suddenly afford an extra $200 spike each month, you know.

This is actually gonna cause a lot of problems.
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stevo
Who is "they?" we should talk to "them" about this.
"okay" if you "say so"
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Old 09-01-2005, 07:36 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Here in Alaska, we get our gas straight from the North Slope.. here in Alaska, but our prices are proportioanately higher as well($2.70 or so) because our oil and gas prices are set in the commdoties market.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
is awesome!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongy
Here in Alaska, we get our gas straight from the North Slope.. here in Alaska, but our prices are proportioanately higher as well($2.70 or so) because our oil and gas prices are set in the commdoties market.
we have refineries in Alaska?
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:41 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Its Bush's fault! Everyone blame their woes on someone else. The president is the easiest of targets.
How about looking in the mirror? The Chinese oil consumption is stressing the market into shortage territory. Why?

Because Americans have the I deserve the cheapest goods mentality.

So keep shopping Wallmart, buying your goods made in China, we did this to ourselves,
and as it slowly happens people cry I lost my job its so-and-so's fault.
No its your own fault, take a look at the tag on your shoes, those trinkets in happy meals your kids play with, or anything else your deserved to pay .89 cents less for.
Why not its your right. Just dont cry about the results of your demands.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:49 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I don't see anywhere in this thread where people are blaming it on Bush.

I agree with you about the "Americans have the I deserve the cheapest goods mentality" being a problem by the way...
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:24 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
What I really don't get is why there are mass incentives to buy big SUVs (tax credit of up to $60,000? right?) but only a one-time tax credit of $1500 if you buy a hybrid or something like that. I've been scratching my head over that one.
What tax credit on an SUV? I have had mine for nearly 4 years now (Dodge Durango) and have not qualified for a single tax break for driving an SUV. This has to be some sort of Green party BS against SUVs.

For the record, we also have a 92 Honda Accord that still gets better than 30 miles to a gallon and that is what gets driven the most around here.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:40 AM   #36 (permalink)
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sirseymour, there was a business credit given to any person buying an suv over a certain weight. Essentially all of the money used to buy the SUV was given as a tax credit at the end of the year. I alot of unscrupulous people buoght them for their personal use but bought them under this provision. It occurred less than 4 hyrs ago and was only available to business owners, IIRC, or people who could show that their SUV was for commercial use.

i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but that'sa bout what i remember frmo the whole hooplah
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:04 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paq
sirseymour, there was a business credit given to any person buying an suv over a certain weight. Essentially all of the money used to buy the SUV was given as a tax credit at the end of the year. I alot of unscrupulous people buoght them for their personal use but bought them under this provision. It occurred less than 4 hyrs ago and was only available to business owners, IIRC, or people who could show that their SUV was for commercial use.

i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but that'sa bout what i remember frmo the whole hooplah
6,000 pounds. I didn't take advantage of this, but I question your use of the word "unscrupulous."
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:11 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I merely use it to say that some business owners used this provision to buy their personal vehicle for free.
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Location: The Event Horizon
Movie Quote:

The vision dims and all that remains are memories. They take me back -back to the place where the black pump sucked guzzolene from the earth...And I remember the terrible battle we fought - the day we left that place forever...But, most of all, I remember the courage of a stranger, a road warrior called Max. To understand who he was you must go back to the last days of the old world ... when, for reasons long forgotten, two mighty warrior nations went to war ......and touched off a blaze which engulfed them all.


An attendant pulls down a sign which reads:

$7 / Gallon and replaces it with another sign:

AUTHORIZED VEHICLES ONLY

...For without fuel they were nothing. They had built a house of straw ...People stopped in the streets and listened: for the first time they
heard the sound of silence. Their world crumbled ...And only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive.
At last, the vermin had inherited the earth. And in this maelstrom of decay, ordinary men were battered and crushed...


This movie keep popping in my head as I was reading the posts.
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Old 09-05-2005, 09:36 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paq
I merely use it to say that some business owners used this provision to buy their personal vehicle for free.
Free?

I guess then any business write off is 'free' and I don't really have to MAKE the money
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