09-05-2005, 05:01 AM | #1 (permalink) |
Degenerate
Location: San Marvelous
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Comparing Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina.
Let's compare Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina.
One major principle of the United States government is federalism. There are certain powers that belong to state and local governments, and there are certain powers that belong to the National government. Local officials are charged with preparing for local emergencies. The national government comes in to help states at the request of state officials. With this in mind, I submit that state and local officials in Louisiana and New Orleans have completely failed the people of that state and city. Compare the response of Louisianna officials to the response of Mississippi officials, and the contrast couldn't be greater. The following article is from http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/0...louisiana.html. "I read Gov. Blanco's (D-LA) statement too with some weird bemusement. What's been lost in all the blather over New Orleans is that it was really Mississippi that took the big hit. The buildings in New Orleans are still standing; the Gulf Coast of Mississippi basically has been scrubbed, like God took out a pencil eraser and just erased it. (Up in the northern hemisphere, since storms spin counterclockwise, the worst part of a hurricane is the "right-front" quadrant - because the wind is going with the momentum of the storm's movement, plus the wind pushes the storm surge along. The center hit basically at the MS/LA state line, so MS was on the bad side.) I really don't like to find fault at times like this, but one thing that was missing was a quick recognition that in such a situation the potential for civil collapse is nearly 100%. Once the weather settles, you need to immediately declare marshal law and send in the MPs. That's basically what Haley Barbour did in Mississippi - there were a few early problems but very quickly the MPs were patrolling what was left of Biloxi and Gulfport and keeping a lid on things. Back on Tuesday when I put on the news and we all saw Kathleen Blanco bursting into tears, I knew that was the wrong message and would bring trouble. Louisiana and New Orleans basically have those touchy-feely, "I'm okay, you're okay" soft-leftie types in charge. Their education took a few days and has been expensive. So I hope you're Watching Mississippi. Highly recommended - we may have found our next President out of this (you heard it here first). Amidst all the hyperventilating that's going on, it's actually a good time for a civics lesson, particularly watching the competence of the people in Mississippi and the gross incompetence of almost all concerned in Louisiana. Who was responsible for what? - The mayor of NO has been a good hyperventilator, but one thing became obvious quickly. NO is below sea level and it was inevitable that someday The Worst was going to happen. NO didn't even take the worse possible hit (MS did), but it was clear that no one in NO had ever planned for The Worst. Last weekend, the mayor said, "Everyone get out of town." It's obvious that lots of people weren't able to just load up the car and go - folks with no transportation like that, the incapacitated, patients in hospitals, etc. There was no plan to really evacuate the city, and it's the local officials (over decades) who were responsible for that. - Why wasn't the National Guard called out sooner to maintain order? Responsibility with each state's National Guard contingent in situations like this (where they operate within state boundaries) is the responsibility of each state's governor. To put it bluntly, the responsibility for calling out the NG in LA rested with the governor. If it didn't happen on time, that's HER failing. Mississippi got hammered much worse than Louisiana but is barely in the news because the leadership has been much more competent. Ms. Blanco is clearly way out of her league in this situation. This was a good reminder that LA has for decades been our worst managed and most corrupt state. I briefly caught a bit of the News Hour last night, and David Brooks pointed that out; he also pointed out something that's pretty obvious - for the most part, the South has been booming for the past 25 or so years. The major cities went from backwater jokes to leading cities - Atlanta, Raleigh, Dallas, all of Florida, etc. The "hole in the map" in all of this has been Louisiana - it's like the last 25 or 30 years of southern growth have passed it right by. Get away from the gussified tourist areas and NO is a pretty awful city. He also asked why we were so good at quick response halfway around the world in Banda Aceh while we seemed so unable to handle something right in the country. That's actually pretty obvious to me. Indonesia was a piece of cake because there was no bureaucracy out there - "What have we got over near there?" "The USS Lincoln battlegroup." "Send 'em in and let the Navy people on site to run the show." Inside this country, you have multiple interlocking bureaucracies that just don't know what to do on their own, let alone when they try to interact... The most effective response to NO probably would have been to just turn the project over to the Navy immediately and tell everyone else to leave them alone. But of course that wouldn't happen because then all those bureaucracies would be forced to admit that they are much worse than useless when the crunch comes..."
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. Last edited by Aladdin Sane; 09-05-2005 at 05:03 AM.. |
09-05-2005, 11:05 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Nice post. I'd add that the television media won't do much in regard to covering this--Katie Couric and her ilk are too busy acting like they predicted this, and had explicit plans in place.
Repeat after me: It's all Bush's fault....
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
09-05-2005, 11:57 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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I watched a news interview with Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore today. The reporter was telling him how messed up and unprepared the federal leaders were and until he showed up things were out of control. The reporter said that FEMA should have sent the General there earlier.
The General told him that he was wrong and that they were ready to go in as soon as the storm ended but that the early responders were becomming victims themselves and he could not go on any earlier. I have heard interviews with General Honore several times recently and he seems to have a lot of credibility. |
09-06-2005, 06:08 AM | #4 (permalink) | |
Born Against
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While I think all levels of government were sadly unprepared for impacts of Katrina, the federal government's response seems especially curious.
For example, it took Washington 5 days to complete the paperwork to send New Mexico's National Guard to Louisiana (from Sunday, the day before Katrina hit, to Thursday, three days afterwards). The same is true for paperwork for several other states. It's understandable that N.O. didn't anticipate the collapse of its own police force, and the magnitude of the looting. But it's not understandable to me why Washington would take 5 days to approve Blanco's requests for more Guard units. In any case, this is now a bipartisan question, with republicans Chuck Hagel and John Warner joining the chorus of voices calling for a Congressional investigation into the actions of Washington post-Katrina. Heres a ref: Quote:
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09-06-2005, 07:24 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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I just have one question.
The mayor of NO and the gov of LA stated that the superdome would be able to house up to 30,000 of the city's poorest during the storm. 9,000 came during katrina and 15,000 were there after the storm. The superdome couldn't house 15,000 people for 2 days! Didn't have enough food, water, security. How many days were they expecting to house 30,000 people? 3/4 a way through the storm? The gov and mayor definately dropped the ball on this. their first priority should be to protect their citizens and they did NOTHING.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
09-06-2005, 08:20 AM | #7 (permalink) | |
Born Against
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It wasn't until Thursday, September 1, that Washington finally completed the paperwork to send in the manpower that Blanco requested five days earlier. What I'd like to know is: why should it have taken 5 days? That doesn't make any sense to me. While I agree that there were several balls dropped, by practically everybody including Bush, I don't agree that the gov and mayor did nothing. |
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09-06-2005, 11:18 AM | #8 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Where'd you get the 5 days from?
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...6&postcount=12 ---- But I did hear, for the first time today, that a New Orleans newspaper printed an article 7 weeks before the hurricane hit, letting the residents know that the city and state is not prepared to evacuate the poor and those without cars if a major storm hits and those residents should begin preparing now for an evacuation if one is ever needed. add: Go figure, I hear about the story - then go to drudge and he has it there. whaddya know? Quote:
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 09-06-2005 at 11:25 AM.. |
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09-06-2005, 11:27 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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09-06-2005, 01:39 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Rekna is right, if I remember correctly. Anyone retreating to the Superdome was asked to bring food (and drink?) for...I think it was 3 days.
I remember hearing, on NPR I think, the factoid that the Louisiana state contitution does not even allow for martial law to be declared. If that's true, it was never an option. |
09-06-2005, 05:17 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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There will be plenty of opportunities for blame-laying in the post-mortem. Nobody's hands are totally clean in all this, from the federal government all the way down to the people who are still there who refuse to leave. |
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09-06-2005, 05:27 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Born Against
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09-07-2005, 05:43 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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The ball was rolling in washington before katrina hit the gulf states
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Everything that went on: http://www.fema.gov/news/eventnews.fema?id=4808 There were problems at the local level that prevented FEMA from being as effective as it could have been immediately after the storm. FEMA did no less with katrina than it has done with any other storm.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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09-07-2005, 05:55 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Born Against
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President Bush himself is on record saying that the federal response to Katrina was "unacceptable" and that he intended to correct the problem. |
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09-07-2005, 06:30 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Follow the links, look at other disaters on the site and you will wee no less action taken by FEMA for katrina than with any other hurricane. They are all on there, look around.
What do you want bush to say? "the federal response to katirna was perfect" FEMA fucked shit up. thats for sure. They were directing truckloads of water to towns that couldn't be reached because they were 15 feet under water, so there are truckloads of water trapped on a road just miles from the people that need it. The coordination was horrible - thats not the president's fault, thats falls on the shoulders of the administration of Louisiana and NewOrleans - they coordinate with FEMA, not the president. Bush actually urged that NewOrleans call for mandatory evacuations on saturday (the storm didn't hit until early am monday). He urged that everyone leave. Mayor Nagin didn't call for an evacuation until 18hrs before katrina hit. Nagin did nothing for his citizens. He could have evacuated the poor, but instead he left these buses to flood.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
09-07-2005, 07:17 AM | #22 (permalink) | |
Banned
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I point out to people who give Bush not only an automatic unquestioning pass, no matter what the evidence is of shortcomings in his or his administration's performance, policies, or statements, but defend him and them to an extent similar to what you observe here.....they seem "more Bush, than Bush"!!!. This is the reason that signifigant numbers still believe that there are WMD still hidden in signifigant quantities in Iraq, or spirited away to places like Syria, or that Saddam collaborated with Qaeda/Bin Laden, even after Bush or Scott MCcLellann went on record denying that they expected Iraqi WMD would be found, even outside Iraq, or that a claim could be made that Iraq had ties to Al Qaeda. This is Bush's base. It empowers and enables him. They wanna believe..... no matter whether it requires dismissing Plame's 20 years of patriotic service by siding with Rove's machinations and false and misleading white house statements, and by asserting almost with one voice that "she wasn't really an "operative", to parroting any personal "smear" OP directed towards anyone critical of this executive branch, or of candidate Bush, even if the individual attacked has an exemplary record of public service.....or has been highly decorated by the military for past service. Facts be damned. Last edited by host; 09-07-2005 at 07:20 AM.. |
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09-07-2005, 09:31 AM | #23 (permalink) | |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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Apparently that is what you think when presented with facts from others, ignoring them like you whine about when others ignore you.
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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
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09-07-2005, 09:49 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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LMAO, the only "fact" that everyone reading politics can see is a small handful of TFP members can't seem to go through a single day without personally attacking host.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
09-07-2005, 10:14 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Gentlemen Farmer
Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey
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Welcome back, btw, Smooth. How have you been? -bear
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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission. |
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09-07-2005, 11:04 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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So is it bush's fault the mayor of new orleans decided not to use those buses to evacuate his poor, huddled masses, yearning not to drown??
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
09-07-2005, 03:42 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Born Against
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I don't hear FEMA or Bush saying that they weren't still obligated to do the best they could for those drowning people, because it's the mayor's fault they were there. |
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09-07-2005, 05:18 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Degenerate
Location: San Marvelous
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The state and local culpability is becoming clear
It becomes clearer by the day that the local and state governments in Louisianna are mainly responsible for the delayed help in the aftermath of Katrina.
The Red Cross is confirming that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center. (http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html). Furthermore, as I type this the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisianna are revealing their ongoing confusion by publicly disagreeing over the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. The Mayor has ordered it and the Governor is saying he can't do it without her permission.
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. Last edited by Aladdin Sane; 09-07-2005 at 05:23 PM.. |
09-07-2005, 07:04 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Alladin, I assume you just forgot to post the entirety of the Red Cross link.
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Sheesh. |
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09-07-2005, 09:50 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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09-07-2005, 10:19 PM | #31 (permalink) | ||||||
Banned
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NY TIMES will make the following unavailable in the next few days, so forgive me for posting all of it. Just making the point that you all seem to repeat the same message, at the same co-ordinated time.....every time..... Quote:
You can follow exposure of Rove's newest "OP".....smear Louisiana's political leaders, to prop up Bush's shakey rep......here: Quote:
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I want you to think....ask questions.....verify or refute.....via your own research, the reliability of what I've presented here. Smear filled talking points aimed at local Louisiana politicians of democratic party affiliation are no subtitute for what this POTUS and his administratiion are really all about..... all sizzle, no steak! |
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09-08-2005, 05:35 AM | #32 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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So because we sound alike none of us can think for ourselves? Go back and read ALL my posts in ALL threads concerning katrina. Find the date of the earliest "OP" and "talking points" and keep skirting the issue with a shit-load of articles.
and my [poor taste joke about the dead deleted] wasn't a joke. Its amazing, this liberal utiopia of Louisiana and New Orleans run by liberals and democrats for the last half a century couldn't protect its own citizens and now its bush's fault. *laugh* *choke*
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
09-08-2005, 06:23 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
Banned
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You, yourself "attack" in a partisan manner, and you criticize the amount of content that I posted, but you refuse to address any of the specifics. It's the same almost all of the time. I post content, worthy of discusssion and rebuttal, those who respond, do so by denigrating me or the way I post, mostly by talking out of their @sses. I've made a well documented case that Rove is running his usual attack and smear campaign against critics, this time in a time of crisis. Bush's base is predictably behaving as Rove's choir. Why not rebut some specifics in the NYT artiicle, or in the other four articles? Is this not the way Rove always operates? Is it not a smear? Why is the press facilitating it? Is it fair? Is what Rove is planting, even true? I believe that his talking points are not true, I backed my point with foour artiicles that contain numerous links to usually reliable, MSM sources. What does your response consist of ? |
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09-08-2005, 06:48 AM | #34 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Lets try this.
Rove doesn't attack, he reacts. All that is heard from the left day in and day out is attack attack attack the bush administration. Rove reacts to these attacks and defends. You just cant' get over the fact that for the last half a century the dems had the power and now they can see it slipping away. The only thing they know how to do is attack attack attack. It really is quite amusing. But I can play the post the article game too. Here's one that spells out why the levee's weren't improved and who's really to blame, since the blame game is so much fun http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20050907a.html Quote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219 Quote:
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 09-08-2005 at 07:13 AM.. |
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09-08-2005, 07:14 AM | #35 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Meechigan
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I really wish people would stop using this disaster to further their political agenda. All I see anymore on this forum and other places is whining about "well the left did this", or "the right does that." Step out of this box that you have put yourself in, and you may realize that this has nothing to do with left vs right, dems vs repubs, Bush vs everyone else. Our government as a whole failed the people of NO, and we need to stop playing the blame game, and figure out what the hell went wrong.
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Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices. - Theodor Adorno |
09-08-2005, 07:15 AM | #36 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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I'm sorry it went that way. But if you want to figure out what the hell went wrong read the two articles I posted. They clearly show what went wrong.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
09-08-2005, 07:58 AM | #37 (permalink) | |
Banned
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Your first article, is written by Jeff Johnson. The results of this google search indicate that he is more of a partisan hack than an MSM news reporter.... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search Your citations back the reporting of the NY Times that Rove is overseeing a thoroughly orchestrated attack on local N.O. officials. Williams and Johnson seem always ready to write on any Rove attack theme. I posted an article by news reporters ADAM NAGOURNEY and Anne E. Kornblutt of the NY Times. They may be too partisan for your liking, but they are professionals who work for the newspaper of record in the U.S., not known for blatant bias that WSJ is famous for. this is a politics thread. If what Nagourney and Kornblutt report is true, the main white house effort is cynical, self serving, malicious, and lacking any of the compassion which Bush attempts to project to all of us. Rove is at work, it needs to be pointed out now, while we can observe the execution of the smear "OP" in progress. Watch the "Plaming" of Louisiana's political leaders, we have a branch of it in the creation of this thread and in some of the poster's Rovesque comments. |
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09-08-2005, 08:40 AM | #38 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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So are you saying the articles I posted were blatant lies, totally untrue? Is that what you are saying. I don't understand. So rove invented all this. He invented the mismanagement of the funds to reinforce the NO levees for the last decades and he invented local government responsibilities after the fact. Is that what you are saying? Did rove make the hurricane as well? Did he steer it directly into New Orleans to kill as many poor and black people as he could? Is that what you are saying? Because these claims are about as outlandish as yours.
Rove didn't write these articles. He has nothing to do with any of this. I think possibly your deep hatred for Karl Rove is that you secretly are in love with him, totally attracted to him, and don't know how to admit it to yourself. Other than that there aren't many other reasons for your seething hatred of this man who has nothing to do with the hurricane or the local, state, or federal response.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 09-08-2005 at 08:43 AM.. |
09-08-2005, 08:50 AM | #39 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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But I think you are too quick to assume that Rove is not madly working some spin behind the scenes. I don't know if the articles you posted are a direct result of Rove's efforts, an indirect result of the same or just a coincidence. Even those who are quick to support Bush can recognize that Bush has been taking a beating in the mainstream press and ultimately did not come out of Katrina looking so hot (regardless of whether or not he did the right thing). If Rove wasn't busy trying to spin the story to repair some of the damage done to his boy's image he wouldn't be doing his job. (I've said it elsewhere on this board but will say it again, Bush and his handlers missed a very solid opportunity to build support for their side. Regardless of what he was supposed to do or who was supposed to be in charge, Bush should have at least looked like he was doing the right thing. The photo OP with him playing guitar should *never* have happened. He should have had his ass on the plane to DC as soon as possible and been at least looking like he was trying to make things happen).
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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09-08-2005, 08:51 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Why are your 'sources' are any more valid than stevos? What is the operational difference between your hitman tactics and those you accuse your friend Karl Rove of? |
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comparing, katrina, louisiana, mississippi, response |
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