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Old 12-18-2005, 11:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Katrina Killed Across The Board

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

It's not fair, I suppose, to interject objective facts into an emotionally charged issue like how the victims of Katrina were the abandoned poor, but the L.A. Times (of all places) has done just that. The raw data of who was affected doesn't support what we've been told since that disaster. At the risk of posting a long note few bother to read, here it is:

Quote:
The bodies of New Orleans residents killed by Hurricane Katrina were almost as likely to be recovered from middle-class neighborhoods as from the city's poorer districts, such as the Lower 9th Ward, according to a Times analysis of data released by the state of Louisiana.

The analysis contradicts what swiftly became conventional wisdom in the days after the storm hit that it was the city's poorest African American residents who bore the brunt of the hurricane. Slightly more than half of the bodies were found in the city's poorer neighborhoods, with the remainder scattered throughout middle-class and even some richer districts.


"The fascinating thing is that it's so spread out," said Joachim Singelmann, director of the Louisiana Population Data Center at Louisiana State University. "It's not just the Lower 9th Ward or New Orleans East, which everybody has heard about. It's across the board, including some well-to-do neighborhoods."

Because New Orleans was one of the nation's poorest cities, where more than one in four residents lives below the poverty level, many of the victims were still found in neighborhoods that were impoverished by national standards. But by the standards of New Orleans, those neighborhoods were economically stable, and deaths citywide were distributed with only a slight bias for economic status.

Of the 828 bodies found in New Orleans after the storm, 300 were either recovered from medical facilities or shelters that offer no data on the victim's socioeconomic status, or from locations that the state cannot fully identify. Of the 528 bodies recovered from identifiable addresses in city neighborhoods, 230 came from areas that had household incomes above the citywide median of $27,133. The poorer areas accounted for 298 bodies.

The state official in charge of identifying Katrina's victims, Dr. Louis Cataldie, said he was not surprised by the findings. "We went into $1-million and $2-million homes trying to retrieve people," he said.

The information used in The Times analysis was incomplete, due to difficulties in gathering data in the days after Katrina struck and to bureaucratic problems that followed.

The private company that was contracted to collect bodies was supposed to mark the GPS coordinates of each recovery, but state officials said they soon determined that data was "worthless." They had to reconstruct the locations where bodies were found but in some cases could provide information no more specific than "Canal Street." Although it is the most comprehensive data they have released on storm fatalities, state officials acknowledge that the information is still riddled with errors and probably will be corrected constantly in coming months.

The state data also include locations such as the interchange of I-10 and I-610 where rescuers in motorboats were directed to deposit bodies they found floating in the floodwaters. There is no way to determine where some of those 19 bodies came from, and all have been excluded from The Times analysis.

"The data you have leaves a lot to be desired," Cataldie said in an interview Friday. "I don't know if it'll ever be 100%."

Of the 1,095 people killed by Katrina in Louisiana, the state has formally identified and released demographic data on 535. Many other victims are tentatively identified, though 93 remain unidentifiable. A couple of bodies are recovered every week, and officials say other victims may have been swept into the Gulf of Mexico, never to be found.

Medical and dental records were destroyed by the storm, and many corpses are so severely decomposed that traditional identification methods such as fingerprints are useless.

Even with the majority of the bodies identified, the state is unable to determine when most died, or how. Many death certificates bear the date of Katrina's landfall Aug. 29 even though the victim could have died days later. Given the severity of damage suffered by bodies in the floodwaters, cause of death is also extremely difficult to determine and will never be known for many victims, Cataldie said.

New Orleans was the site of most of Katrina's fatalities; the state reported that 76% of storm deaths statewide occurred in the city. Of the 380 bodies from New Orleans that have been formally identified, a moderately disproportionate number are white. New Orleans' population was 28% white, yet 33% of the identified victims in the city are white and 67% black.

"The affected population is more multiracial, multiethnic and multicultural than one might discern from national media reports," said Richard Campanella, a Tulane University geographer who has studied which parts of the city were hit the worst by flooding. His research showed that predominantly white districts in the city were almost as likely to flood as predominantly black ones.

Campanella said he was not surprised at the even distribution of bodies between the city's poorer and more affluent neighborhoods. He noted that 70% of the identified Katrina victims in New Orleans were older than 60, frequently lifelong residents who had ridden out other hurricanes and refused to evacuate. Elderly people are more likely to be wealthier and to live in wealthier neighborhoods.

Many of the city's wealthier neighborhoods sit on Lake Pontchartrain in the lowest-lying sector of town, Campanella said. For example, Lakeview, a predominately white neighborhood that contains mansions valued at more than $1 million in addition to crowded streets studded with modest bungalows, fronts the lake and is adjacent to the 17th Street Canal. When the levee collapsed, the neighborhood was destroyed. The only neighborhood with comparable destruction, the Lower 9th Ward, sits on higher ground but was unluckily flanked by two broken levees.

Katrina "really knew no bounds," said Ashley Casey, an aide to Lakeview Councilman John Batt. "I don't think it's over yet in any neighborhood."

Singelmann, of the Louisiana Population Data Center, said New Orleans was unique among American cities because, despite pockets of poverty in places such as the Lower 9th Ward, the city was remarkable for its integration of blacks and whites of different incomes living in close proximity.

He cited Read Boulevard East, a neighborhood of expensive new homes clustered around a 36-acre lake, as well as streets of more modest homes owned by middle-class whites and blacks. The data indicate a high concentration of recovered bodies from the neighborhood.

On the other hand, Singelmann said, poor African American neighborhoods that straddle the prosperous Garden District show a much higher concentration of recovered bodies than the Garden District itself. One reason, he said, may be that low-income residents lacked cars to flee in or the resources to pay for a safe refuge outside the city. And the Garden District sits on some of the city's highest land.

Not all white residents who died in the storm were well-to-do; not all African American victims were poor.

William S. Porter Jr., a 75-year-old African American, for instance, worked as an embalmer and funeral director for a New Orleans funeral home.

He died at a home in the rapidly gentrifying Gentilly neighborhood during the storm not because he lacked the means to flee but because he refused to leave, his son said.

Porter, who called himself "the Bishop," owned a home in the Lower 9th Ward but was moving into a second home in Gentilly.

Porter earned about $40,000 a year, said his boss, Cal Johnson of Littlejohn's Funeral Home. He also earned rental income from two homes he owned in the Lower 9th Ward, his son said.

"He was not a pauper by any means," Johnson said of Porter. "He lived quite well."
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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So, um AVOR...no offense, but um...what's your point? I'm not particularly surprised at all that a lot of people got fubared - I'm a little surprised they only have 1000 confirmed casualities, but there you go. That's still half the number of soliders we've lost in Iraq...
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
He died at a home in the rapidly gentrifying Gentilly neighborhood during the storm not because he lacked the means to flee but because he refused to leave, his son said.
He's not the only one that decided not to leave, hundreds of others didn't leave and that's their own fault. Don't go running around and blaming on other problems like proverty.
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelgood
He's not the only one that decided not to leave, hundreds of others didn't leave and that's their own fault. Don't go running around and blaming on other problems like proverty.
Right, may as well blame bad parenting, drugs, animal cruelty, global warming, cancer, AIDS, Bird Flu, etc. to the reasons since there's no real correlation for the causation.
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Old 12-18-2005, 01:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Because New Orleans was one of the nation's poorest cities, where more than one in four residents lives below the poverty level, many of the victims were still found in neighborhoods that were impoverished by national standards. But by the standards of New Orleans, those neighborhoods were economically stable, and deaths citywide were distributed with only a slight bias for economic status.
For me, that paragraph says a lot more than it's saying. I'm a little shocked that this is a side-note.

The middle-class in New Orleans would have been lower-middle or downright poor in most other cities. Ever go to to pre-Katrina NOLA? The poverty there was incredible, like nothing I've ever seen anywhere else. The worst neighborhood in any city I've ever lived in is like a happy, clean suburb compared to the worst neighborhoods in New Orleans. It was absolutely shocking. The average NOLA family's neighborhood would be comperable to my home town's worst neighborhoods.

So, no I'm not particularly surprised that the death cut across social strata (though the article says that over half were in the poorest neighborhoods). It's just that those strata started a lot lower than most everywhere else.

I really hope that Katrina's legacy is a wake-up call about poverty in this country. It's a way bigger problem than we've known.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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But on a serious note, why does this really surprise us? In regards to the media reporting on KAtrinia, everything they said turned out to be totally false: Babies being raped in the SD, 10,000+ dead, FEMA fucked up, ect...
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Old 01-01-2006, 12:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelgood
He's not the only one that decided not to leave, hundreds of others didn't leave and that's their own fault. Don't go running around and blaming on other problems like proverty.
I beg to disagree. Poverty is an enormous factor.

There are three categories of people who did not flee hurricane Katrina. The question is did this man fall into category one or category three. Just because his son says he is a category one, does not mean you can rule him out of category three. On the flip side, we can't place him in category three either because we don't know for sure where he goes. We should always be open minded to all possibilities.

Categories:

1) People with proper knowledge of the severity of the storm and means to leave, who decided on their own free will not to leave. People like this who died have only themselves to blame.

2) People living in a state of poverty who did not have the means to leave i.e. transportation and thus were forced to stay behind. This is not their fault. Poverty is to blame here.

3) People living in a state of poverty who did not have the means to know or understand the severity of the storm. These people may have said they have "chosen" to stay, but they lacked the information to make an informed decision and thus it was not their fault. Poverty is to blame here.

In any natural disaster of any kind the people below the poverty line are always the most affected because many of these people lack televisions, radios and cars. Without these essential tools that allow them to make educated decisions, people die. Poverty is to blame here.

If I do not have a radio or television, how do I know hurricane Katrina is coming? If I know this hurricane is coming, do I understand the severity of it? If I understand the severity of the situation, do I have any means of transportation? If no is the answer to any of these three questions, then I am severely hindered from fleeing. People who answer no to at least one question are below the poverty line and their poverty is what is preventing them from fleeing and living.

I know other factors besides poverty played huge roles in who was killed by hurricane Katrina, but you cannot say that poverty is not a factor. You cannot say that poverty is not to blame here.
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Old 01-01-2006, 12:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCB
In regards to the media reporting on KAtrinia, everything they said turned out to be totally false: Babies being raped in the SD, 10,000+ dead, FEMA fucked up, ect...

If my sister tells you a lie, does that make me a liar too? So, if some of the media gives you false information, are all media giving false information too?
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmoundJoy18
I beg to disagree. Poverty is an enormous factor.

There are three categories of people who did not flee hurricane Katrina. The question is did this man fall into category one or category three. Just because his son says he is a category one, does not mean you can rule him out of category three. On the flip side, we can't place him in category three either because we don't know for sure where he goes. We should always be open minded to all possibilities.

Categories:

1) People with proper knowledge of the severity of the storm and means to leave, who decided on their own free will not to leave. People like this who died have only themselves to blame.

2) People living in a state of poverty who did not have the means to leave i.e. transportation and thus were forced to stay behind. This is not their fault. Poverty is to blame here.

3) People living in a state of poverty who did not have the means to know or understand the severity of the storm. These people may have said they have "chosen" to stay, but they lacked the information to make an informed decision and thus it was not their fault. Poverty is to blame here.

In any natural disaster of any kind the people below the poverty line are always the most affected because many of these people lack televisions, radios and cars. Without these essential tools that allow them to make educated decisions, people die. Poverty is to blame here.

If I do not have a radio or television, how do I know hurricane Katrina is coming? If I know this hurricane is coming, do I understand the severity of it? If I understand the severity of the situation, do I have any means of transportation? If no is the answer to any of these three questions, then I am severely hindered from fleeing. People who answer no to at least one question are below the poverty line and their poverty is what is preventing them from fleeing and living.

I know other factors besides poverty played huge roles in who was killed by hurricane Katrina, but you cannot say that poverty is not a factor. You cannot say that poverty is not to blame here.
Sure I can.

I see lols of "poor" people here in NYC. They are FAR from poor. They have cable TV, VCR, cellphones, hip clothing and all the trappings of Urban youth hip hop.

They choose to spend their money UNWISELY when they get it. They choose to spend money on things instead of having something for emegencies.

I have had family that came here with $20 in their pockets and now now homes and cars, do not live off the state and provide educations for their children.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Sure I can.

I see lols of "poor" people here in NYC. They are FAR from poor. They have cable TV, VCR, cellphones, hip clothing and all the trappings of Urban youth hip hop.

They choose to spend their money UNWISELY when they get it. They choose to spend money on things instead of having something for emegencies.

I have had family that came here with $20 in their pockets and now now homes and cars, do not live off the state and provide educations for their children.
What does that have to do with what AlmoundJoy18 said?
You are making some pretty broad generalizations based on your limited experiences. Your experiences in NYC have no bearing on how things were in New Orleans and in no way show that poverty was not a factor in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
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Old 01-01-2006, 04:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AlmoundJoy18
If my sister tells you a lie, does that make me a liar too? So, if some of the media gives you false information, are all media giving false information too?
When it comes to Katrina reporting, yes.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maximusveritas
What does that have to do with what AlmoundJoy18 said?
You are making some pretty broad generalizations based on your limited experiences. Your experiences in NYC have no bearing on how things were in New Orleans and in no way show that poverty was not a factor in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself; however there is one things I would like to add.

Quote:
I see lols of "poor" people here in NYC. They are FAR from poor. They have cable TV, VCR, cellphones, hip clothing and all the trappings of Urban youth hip hop.

They choose to spend their money UNWISELY when they get it. They choose to spend money on things instead of having something for emegencies.

I have had family that came here with $20 in their pockets and now now homes and cars, do not live off the state and provide educations for their children.
The poverty level is relative to what state you live in (in the United States) and/or what country you live in. By state, poor people are based on what they have in relation to what other people have in that same state. Poor people in NYC may have all of those possesions, but compared to other people in NYC, they are poor. Each state's poverty level is different, meaning that the poor people in NYC may be the equivalent of the middle class or well-to-do people in Louisiana. Therefore the rates of poverty between different states cannot be compared to one another because the results can only be misleading and inaccurate.
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Last edited by AlmoundJoy18; 01-01-2006 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 01-01-2006, 07:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximusveritas
What does that have to do with what AlmoundJoy18 said?
You are making some pretty broad generalizations based on your limited experiences. Your experiences in NYC have no bearing on how things were in New Orleans and in no way show that poverty was not a factor in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Broad???? not really...

in 2 foreign countries India and Philippines where poverty is TRUE destitution, they saw the images of the "poor" people here in America. When people found out I was from America asked,"How come your poor people are FAT???????????"

When I looked around at the squalor and the shanty towns that people setup with real beggars that are SKIN AND BONES, some with medical conditions like scurvy, infections, etc, I think I can safely say, Poor people here in America make POOR decisions on how they live. Not ALL do, but MOST. I know this because my wife grew up quite poor getting things out of the mission boxes, food from community pantries, etc. She made decisions that HELPED her get out of poverty. Did her mother make thos same choices? No she still makes BAD DECISIONS about money. Massachusetts has quite poor people, either you are well off or you are poor, it's been that way there for many generations.
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Old 01-02-2006, 03:08 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmoundJoy18
The poverty level is relative to what state you live in (in the United States) and/or what country you live in. By state, poor people are based on what they have in relation to what other people have in that same state. Poor people in NYC may have all of those possesions, but compared to other people in NYC, they are poor. Each state's poverty level is different, meaning that the poor people in NYC may be the equivalent of the middle class or well-to-do people in Louisiana. Therefore the rates of poverty between different states cannot be compared to one another because the results can only be misleading and inaccurate.
Which is why the people (classified as poverty-stricken) in New Orleans appear to be whiners when our media provide us with stories on people in India, Mexico, the Philippines, etc. who live in cardboard boxes and have insufficient food.

By your concept, someone who lives in the Hamptons (like a butler) who can't afford cable TV is poverty-stricken. I wouldn't concede more than "not wealthy."

A universal standard of poverty, such as sufficient shelter, clothing, and nutrition, would be a much more logical yardstick. Anything else is misleading and inaccurate.
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Old 01-02-2006, 03:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
in 2 foreign countries India and Philippines where poverty is TRUE destitution, they saw the images of the "poor" people here in America. When people found out I was from America asked,"How come your poor people are FAT???????????"

When I looked around at the squalor and the shanty towns that people setup with real beggars that are SKIN AND BONES, some with medical conditions like scurvy, infections, etc, I think I can safely say, Poor people here in America make POOR decisions on how they live. Not ALL do, but MOST. I know this because my wife grew up quite poor getting things out of the mission boxes, food from community pantries, etc. She made decisions that HELPED her get out of poverty. Did her mother make thos same choices? No she still makes BAD DECISIONS about money. Massachusetts has quite poor people, either you are well off or you are poor, it's been that way there for many generations.
A friend of mine is fond of saying that "poverty is a choice." He means in this country. At parties, that statement is usually all it takes to make the faces of liberals contort in rage and begin name-calling.

Your statement of "Not ALL do, but MOST" seems accurate to me.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:35 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmoundJoy18
If my sister tells you a lie, does that make me a liar too? So, if some of the media gives you false information, are all media giving false information too?
Well...maybe.
What I mean is, if your sister tells a lie, and then you pick up on it, and start spreading that same lie (even though you may believe it) around yourself, without verifying fact....then yes, I believe that would make you a liar too.
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Old 01-04-2006, 10:13 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NCB
But on a serious note, why does this really surprise us? In regards to the media reporting on KAtrinia, everything they said turned out to be totally false: Babies being raped in the SD, 10,000+ dead, FEMA fucked up, ect...
"Babies being raped" - never heard that one, heard horror stories for sure, and some were true.

"10,000+ dead" - who said that? the Mayor of New Orleans. As far as I know, Ray Nagin is not "the media".

"FEMA fucked up..." Yep. They sure did. I'd stand behind any media that reported that.

As far as everything being "totally false", that's simply not true.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Poppinjay
"Babies being raped" - never heard that one
Yep, the chief of police gave us that gem
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