Well you asked for more information on the percentage of taxes included in the price of goods and services we buy. I have been searching for hours trying to get better information with little luck so far.

I don't necessarily agree with the writer's 95% estimate either but it is one of the few links I could find that even discusses it. At the very least it is an example of someone else's estimate and can lead to further discussion here.

I think that the taxes are probably a lot higher than most of us think. The Americans for Tax Reform link I gave in a previous post estimates the taxes included in the prices to be anywhere from 26% to 75% and they refer to a Price Waterhouse study which I have been unable to find. From what little information they give it seems that they are not including all the taxes paid in the distribution chain so I am guessing that the numbers are probably higher.

Instead of calling it a crock of shit and telling me I should be ashamed why don't you explain why you disagree with it and why you buy into the 30% estimate instead?

Yes there are a few select items such as gasoline and smokes that have enormous taxes built in but it is an exception, not the rule.

A 30% estimate is more reasonable (probably even high) because the rough estimate math works out that way. In 2001, the fed govt collected $2T, half was collected from individuals (page 34). People paid an average tax rate of 14.23% (income tax only). Add in another 10% for the taxes paid directly to the feds (SS, medicare, etc) and that is 25%. That 25% makes up half of what the feds recieved. Those taxes are not hidden in any way. Of course this doesn't count state, city, county taxes that are paid directly but they are small in comparison (about 20% of what you pay to feds?).

There are also sales taxes, up to 9% in some places. It is collected by the merchant but you really can't call that a hidden tax because it's right there.

Overall, around 30% of what people made in 2001 covered roughly half of what the govt (local and fed) took in. For the most part, people spend all their money. Yes, a lot of that goes towards housing, insurance, car payments and investments but all of that has their own hidden taxes built in. For the most part, everything except for the cash people have that just sits around gets spent on something so it all gets taxed somehow.

Now I've rambled a bit, I hope it makes some sense, but we are basically left with 50% that the govt still needs to collect. They collected the first 50% by taking about 30% from us. How is it reasonable to say that they need to take nearly half of our remaining money to collect that other 50%?

That irs table that I linked to in my previous post tell a lot about taxation. I should have just linked it at the start of the thread and ended the whole thread with it.

ace made a nice sounding arguement that the rich don't pay taxes and we need to simplify things so that they pay their share but the whole thread was based on a lie. Look at the table. The top 1% in America paid almost 34% of the income taxes in 2001. Based on that, it sure looks like they are paying taxes.

On a side note, look at some of the other information in there. Did you know that the top 1% makes more money than the entire bottom 50% combined?

kutulu

The first link in your message #42 does not work (takes you back to TFP message).

We seem to be talking about different things here or maybe I'm just confused.
I understand that the higher income people pay a higher percentage of income taxes but I don't see where the IRS tables show what percentage of the price of goods and services is there because of taxes included in the distribution channel. In other words what percentage of the final cost of say a loaf of bread is there because of all the taxes passed along in increased prices by all the members of the distribution chain.

If the additional cost of an item due to these taxes equals 50% of the price then those who purchase these items are essentually paying all these taxes indirectly. Someone who spends all their income on goods and services then are then spending 50% of their income on taxes (indirectly).

I appreciate your links to the IRS tables but cannot figure out how to use them to determine how much of the price of an item is there because of taxes and therefore how much taxes we as consumers pay indirectly as part of the price charged to us at the store.

Never said the rich don't pay taxes. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote before making misleading comments.

I clearly stated that I made up the scenerio to illustrate a point. The tax avoidance methods used by the rich are real.

Rich people control what they pay in taxes based on many factors. The call to increase taxes on the rich IMHO, is a means to appeal to the masses and get votes for democrats.

If a rich person is not claiming large deductions on their 1040, the ATM won't afffect them. You are right the ATM is another example of how they wanted to stick it to the rich, but it really sticks it to the upper middle class. I bet Bill Gates doesn't worry about the ATM.

Republicans want tax simplification and lower rates. Democrats want lots of loop holes, and high rates. Now that I am a democrat, and hope to be as rich as Edward Kennedy one day, I too support a tax code with complicated loop holes and high rates. I will take the time and put in the effort to figure it out. To bad the average working guy won't.

I have to thank several people on the board for helping me see the light.

Go democrats, the true party of the rich. :D :D :D