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Old 06-29-2011, 07:46 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Hardcore Pornography: A Conversation

From: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...e-females.html

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Originally Posted by Poetry View Post
I'd like to say that I'm a female and I prefer my porn to be hardcore. To say that you're looking for "female friendly porn" and you define that as soft, happy, realistic porn with a feel-good vibe is kind of insulting to the female populace.
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Originally Posted by purplelirpa View Post
Don't mean to thread-jack, and I'm open to starting a new thread on this topic, but I'm curious how calling soft, happy realistic porn "female friendly" is any more insulting to the female populace than hardcore porn is, in general.

I don't think it's an insult to say that most females don't like hardcore porn, because most hardcore porn is pretty insulting to women. Are there parts of hardcore porn that you find appealing that are not insulting? I, for instance, am insulted by degradation and objectification of women, which I think can be epitomized by the Cum Shot. This makes it very difficult for me to get into hardcore porn.

But really, more specifically, from what I've gathered from hours watching youporn: if there isn't an emotional component to it, I typically won't like it. If it doesn't look believable, I will scoff at it. And if it features a girl being used and degraded, I will be insulted and feel sorry for the girl. So, youporn is wrought with mines aplenty to interrupt my viewing pleasure. I typically have to stick to amateur stuff, because that commonly has real couples (or at least people pretending to be real couples).

I'm curious, because your viewpoint represents one that I haven't run across often, what you feel about these things.
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I'm voting to start a new thread, as my answers will be lengthy and full of thread-jack.
Well, there we go.
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I wish more porn was 'realistic'. Real couples, real sex. The camera operator (if there is one) needs to be good, and should get some close-up shots.

And I'm sure there are enough people who do fetish stuff in their free time to produce it as well.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I can't speak for the female population, but I don't like plastic barbie porn. The porn you see with silicon women, frat boy looking dudes, and fake orgasms do not turn me on. It does the exact opposite, it turns me off. I could less about watching hardcore porn, I like real people and real orgasms.

I usually stick to homemade stuff when I want to flog the bishop. I like the sites lipra listed in the "female porn" thread; itouchmyself, beautifulagony, ect. I get turned on by the personal aspect more than watching three 'roid filled dudes pound some chick on her third nose job.

I'm not a fan of the cum shot, BDSM, or any of the hardcore shit. Solo girls, real couples, webcam stuff, real girls showing off for ex-bfs, that kind of stuff. I'll take a lack of quality video if I get real passion/orgasms in exchange. I'm not against penetration, I just like it when it's a couple, not a couple of people getting paid to fuck. I even like the couples that decide to film their sexcipades and put them on a website to sell. It's getting paid to fuck, but they fucked before they got paid and that's what that matters to me.

I'm an audio kind of guy, I can get off to a woman having an orgasm, just buy listening to it. That's what I like beautifulagony so much, it's fucking hot to me. Porn stars never sound hot, they sound so fake it's not funny. They also look constipated all the time too.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I've been thinking about this thread since it went live. Here's what I've got so far:

Obviously mainstream, silicone, degrading porn appeals to a large segment of the viewers. If it didn't, they'd be making something else. Personally, I don't watch "professional" porn that was made after about 1990 - I prefer the actors to be less noticably altered. On the rare occassions that I do go looking for something that's more recent, it's in search of a particular actress. The "humiliation porn"/BDSM has its place, and provided it's evident that the actress is enjoying it, it's an every-once-in-a-while thing for me.

I agree that most of the actual and filmed-as-if-actual amateur porn is the way to go. Personally, I've enjoyed FTV, girlsoutwest and Abby Winters recently, mainly because they tend to have more realistic portraits of the women and actually care if there are actual orgasms. Obviously there is a percentage that are faked, but a good enough actress only needs to give plausible deniability.

As a regular viewer of older porn, it's surprising that most of the cumshots back in the day were aimed at a chest, back or straight up in the air. The bukkake scenarios are a recent thing, and if an actress took a load in the face, it was with a smile and nod.

It's no surprise that there's been an arms race-mentality within the porn industry. Thirty years ago, porn was harder to film and deliver. With the advent of the internet, all the various kinksters out there have found their own particular niche libraries. There's not much that's left to explore, and I'll bet that there's a subtle retraction of some of the humiliating aspects of the mainstream industry as more young women become regular porn viewers.
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Old 06-30-2011, 01:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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So, I'm confused. I mean, I'm into the hardcore thing in my actual sex life (not all the time, but more often than not) and have had about an 80% return rate from partners. That means the women I was banging were into it... into all those horrible, despicable, degrading things that objectify them as fuck puppets and blah-blah-blah. Kinda funny, actually. I got the ridiculous "Why do you look at porn? You can't look at porn!" psychobabble guilt trip lecture from numerous girlfriends that were completely okay with me parking it in their ass and glazing whatever part of their anatomy I felt like frosting at the moment of my Van Halen-style Eruption. Most of the girls I've been with don't watch porn (around me), but they're cool with "running the gauntlet."

As far as amateur porn, are we talking about production values or what? This certainly isn't necessarily about the people and the activity. I've seen plenty of amateur couples engage in "mainstream" hardcore sex acts such as acrobatic pile driver positions, baby batter face painting and plundering the alternate love canal. Is it more acceptable because Joe and Jane Smith are doing it because they're in a relationship and they have visible zits and stretch marks? Maybe. I prefer watching real people, myself. They're normal, "imperfect" and I can identify with that. Maybe that is why we all like amateur porn. We don't feel so inadequate, even if we know the thing we are comparing ourselves to is completely ridiculous such as a body builder with a cock the size of a loaf of bread or a skinny cokehead blond with perfect tits and smooth hamstrings so tight you can bounce a quarter off them.

So, basically, people are full of shit. Men are putting up with consuming the cartoon drivel that is super gonzo porn (or being brainwashed into seeing the people and activities as run-of-the-mill) and women are pretending that they're okay with the same kind of hardcore that men are into because its edgy and progressive or whatever. Newsflash: Men and women aren't the same. If men and women had the same type of sexual motivation, rappers and other Top 40 crooners would be out of a job, people. Call me a cromag, but I'm quite certain heterosexual fuck sessions typically involve a dude putting his penis inside some part of a woman. He pitches, she catches. The physical part supports the psychological part. No matter what position we're in, sex with my girlfriend involves her getting plowed. It's basic math, right? Controversial, sure, but you can't really argue with the body parts.

...

Ugh, I need another beer.
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I personally like hardcore - if its genuine with voluntary participants.

For me, my pleasure comes from what the people taking part are getting out of it (and putting into it).

I like seeing real pleasure, real intent, real desire and real orgasms. That's what sexy is.

I also like real women with natural figures and natural tits. The more natural the better... that goes for pubic hair too. Not a fan of the 'nothing at all' look.

I have never understood why someone would get pleasure from watching something that is 100% staged.

Role playing is different, because even though the people have parts to play, there is an undercurrent of genuine pleasure being experienced as people play out their fantasies.
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Old 06-30-2011, 07:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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SUPER IMPORTANT UPDATE:

It's always hilarious that women mention the objectification of their sex in porn. I mean, it's pretty clear that men are completely objectified in porn. They're just muscle-bound floating perma-cocks. And we all know that nothing with a penis has feelings (except teenagers and Those Blasted Gays).

If women are simply saliva-dripping hollow shells in porn, men are translucent wraiths with throbbing biceps and the genitals of a mythical monster.

Dumb Men Everywhere: "But porn is all about women! Women doing things and having done to them."

Exactamundo. It's all ridiculous--all of it--so stop being so uptight about it, goddamnit.

It's entertainment. It's no different than all the napalm in those Die Hard sequels.

...

Dumb Men Everywhere: "I should kill myself. I'm not packing a baguette-sized cock. I'm worthless to women."

Basically. Just make sure to Kurt Cobain yourself on the tile, brah. Think of the cleanup, for Chrissakes.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm not gonna make a long reply to this but I will say I like a little bit of all types or porn, even more mainstream stuff. I hate to agree with plan9 but yeah, porn objectifies everyone involved. That's just how it is. I would argue that even the homemade stuff is objectifying. But, if I want relationships and real emotions I have a husband and friends for that. If I want to watch people fucking each other silly then I have porn...or certain clubs.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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If you read what she is saying, I don't think what is being objected to is as much the objectification as it is the humiliation and degradation of the female role in much of the porn that is made today. You can't really argue with that. Personally, I like some of it and it turns me on, but for folks who are offended by it, I understand how distasteful it can seem. Esp. considering how prevalent and over the top female degradation is in porn these days. I suspect it may have something to do with the more dubious position of overt masculine power in our society today, but that's beside the point, I guess. And while, yes, female degradation has always been present in pornography, it is much more extreme in mainstream porn these days. I am old enough to know.

All that said, my consumption of video porn has declined so much as to be almost nil these days. I have no use for it.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quick note to Purplelipra:

Thanks for starting the thread. I will join in when I have a laptop and some time handy, but I'm working a convention until Monday and just got off a fourteen hour shift where I had one twenty minute break. Must go plug in my phone and curl up in bed now.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:57 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Its a touchy subject I suppose.

I can see why most pornography that is MADE seems more demeaning/objectifying to women than to men, because a lot of it is made as a kind of incarnation of that fantasy... but pornography in itself is as demeaning to men as it is to women in general terms.

I'm not sure if I am comfortable to talk about this, and I could just as easily just make the point and not mention it.

But... in the first year after I left college I actually was involved in this kind of thing quite deeply (not as an actor before you get any horrible ideas). I still feel guilty about it, and I think perhaps my fairly strong desire to the "white knight" is perhaps a reaction to those feelings.

I am not talking about revolting or violent stuff, but still... I think it is mostly unhealthy and unhappy and emotionally damaging for almost everyone involved in the making of it. That doesnt mean I am not a hypocrite and still sometimes view pornography...

_

Can women enjoy watching something that portrays them as an object to be fucked?

Perhaps... but I think it is more a case that the idea of it can be exciting and escapist rather than the fact or even actual portrayal of it. I think most "ordinary" women I know find the idea or imagining pornography more interesting than the actual fact of it. Then again I am not a woman...
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Strange Famous View Post
in the first year after I left college I actually was involved in this kind of thing quite deeply (not as an actor before you get any horrible ideas). I still feel guilty about it, and I think perhaps my fairly strong desire to the "white knight" is perhaps a reaction to those feelings...
Funny that you should mention that- I had a close friend and former co-worker who decided to do some side work on what could only be described as a "fuckumentary". Basically, it was hard-core porn with real couples, with each segment comprised of the couples being interviewed on what they did in bed, followed by a demonstration.

The people assembling this project couldn't find a third couple for the proposed hour-long video, so my friend tried to volunteer a female friend of his along with her boyfriend.


Big mistake.


She informed his family and some business associates, and he was pretty much banned from much of his former social circles, unable to escape the stigma of "working in porn".

There's more to this, but we're getting off-track slightly, so I'll end it here. My point was that this sort of thing can have some undesired consequences.
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think of porn the same way I think of McDonalds. I know it's demeaning to those involved in its production, utterly contrived, and is likely made significantly of plastic and artificial hormones but godammit sometimes I get an absurd craving so I just go and get it out of the way and get back to healthier pursuits.
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Dated a girl that would eat Plan9 for breakfast.
Smoking hot, and sex drive X100. She had a chest full of porn vids.
NOT normal. I am used to the girl who likes to watch it with her BF but typically doesnt have porn for herself.

This girl was WAY wilder than me and wore me out. I did have to go to work and have energy to do so. The worry was, when I would be away for extended periods of time. Could somebody with that Hardcore and lively drive, be satisfied at home alone?

Its like an alcoholic living across from a bar.
hmmmmm

Oddly, I have found that girlfriends like porn that has girls UGLIER than them, it lets THEM feel better than the chick in the flick and oddly, gets them aroused and into me.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This thread went somewhere different than I had expected.

What I objected to was nothing to do with the objectification or degradation of women in porn, but with the idea that Porn For Women is supposed to be soft, fluffy, and emotional, but Porn For Men is supposed to be hardcore and objectifying.

That's sexist. That's what bothers me.

Why don't we just call fluffy softcore porn fluffy softcore porn? Why does it need to be Porn for Women?

Personally, I could be using a Hitachi and doing DP with two dildos and not be able to get off to softcore without fantasizing about something complete different than what was on the screen.

And it's not just about what I like. It is truly sexist to describe porn as "female-friendly" because the girls are smiling in it and not taking a load in the face. That's like calling Hondas "Asian Friendly" or hi-top sneakers "Black Friendly".

Don't assume what I will or will not like because I am a chick. The stereotype is not appreciated.

Now, as for the objectification/degradation slant that this thread took...

I've been on a lot of porn shoots in this last year. I was at AEE this last year. I've seen amateur, I've seen insanely high budget. I've seen gay, lesbian, hardcore, softcore, and BDSM. I've chatted with make-up artists, wardrobe workers, extras, directors, producers, and stars. Now, after all that, I'm doing a little bit of contract work for one of the major companies (no, nothing on camera, in case that thought should occur).

If I had a choice between being in one of those softcore and amateur videos and being "degraded" in a big budget, I'd choose the big budget. The girls are treated so much better in big budget, regarded much more highly than the amateur and the softcore. Those girls come in, take their clothes off, blow/fuck whatever partner was assigned, and leave. They have to do their own make-up, usually have their own wardrobe, and they get a minimal check. No one enjoys their lukewarm performances and they know it. They know the entire crew is bored out of their minds.

On a big set, people are excited. People want to see them work. The girls are excited about working on a big project, they're glad to be desired, glad that their performance, looks, and reputation have landed them a role where they are the center of a major movie. The set is more friendly, more hectic, more of a communal project.

And the general consensus here is that they're taking a load in the face or the ass on camera and so are being degraded. It's sex. It's semen. It's a physical act. I would be more concerned with how I am socially treated than if I'm getting paid a thousand+ for allowing some guy to shoot his spunk on my chest.

Why is sex so often considered degrading for women? Why do we think that women who devote their time and effort to looking good, networking, and performing sexually well on camera are considered less?

It isn't the act that causes degradation, it is the hand-me-down viewpoint that we keep alive that causes it.

As for it being contrived... yeah, sure. Some really are. But I also know from listening to girly gossip on set that more often than you'd guess, the couple(s) involved in a scene are actually enjoying themselves and want to be having sex with their partner. I know that some of them have a "no list" of people they will not sleep with because they are undesirable. Some porn companies even match up people after asking them who they'd like to work with.

And, yes, the story lines are often cheesy. But try to write a script that can be shot on next to nothing (thanks internet!!) with five to six sex scenes when you know that 99% of the people watching the movie are skipping straight past the plot... Why would you bother with making it good?

There's other stuff that I'd respond to, but I've got some work to do. However, I do need to respond to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by remy1492 View Post
Dated a girl that would eat Plan9 for breakfast.
Smoking hot, and sex drive X100. She had a chest full of porn vids.
NOT normal. I am used to the girl who likes to watch it with her BF but typically doesnt have porn for herself.

This girl was WAY wilder than me and wore me out. I did have to go to work and have energy to do so. The worry was, when I would be away for extended periods of time. Could somebody with that Hardcore and lively drive, be satisfied at home alone?

Its like an alcoholic living across from a bar.
hmmmmm

Oddly, I have found that girlfriends like porn that has girls UGLIER than them, it lets THEM feel better than the chick in the flick and oddly, gets them aroused and into me.
Really??

Topic 1: No girl I have ever met has liked ugly girls in their porn. What a moodkill.

Topic 2: REALLY? I have an incredibly "lively" drive. I have more experience (and, often, ability) than most of the men I have slept with. Whenever I have a boyfriend, I raid his porn stash for my own use, and it's rarely hardcore enough. My last boyfriend was a major porn director, the one before that built a swing club in Hollywood. I surround myself with sex, preferably hardcore. I have a sexual bucket list. I haven't cheated on a partner in ten years, and I'm 27.

Like an alcoholic living across from a bar?? Jesus Christ.

Why can't we judge people on their personality and their values as opposed to their sexual preferences and drive?

Gah.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Poetry, you're so deeply submersed in the sex thing (you talk about sex like I talk about firearms) that you fail to recognize the importance of the "average female consumer" here in this discussion. This thread isn't a personal attack on you or talking about how horrible it is that women enjoy hardcore sex (those fiends!). I was under the impression that this is a discussion about the current status of hardcore porn as it applies to all women, not the insatiable sex machine called Poetry from TFP. I guess my initial point is that this was more of an academic exercise and not group therapy.

You've been on porn shoots, you've screwed/been in love with porn directors; of course you're not objective. You're not the social norm. BFD.

It isn't sexist to say that "most women" prefer "less hardcore" porn if it is an actual statistic or reflects a sentiment revealed through some type of formal research. "Men don't like pink T-shirts" is an obvious example of this. I've seen plenty of dudes in pink t-shirts, but the vast majority of men, ages 18-65, probably don't own a pink shirt. While you're over there buzzing the bean with the old Clit-tachi and cramming your holes like you'd club a baby seal for another, I reckon "most women" would wonder what the hell is going on with all the freaky-freaky. I know that as a guy that has followed the modern hardcore porn sex formula for well over a decade (oh, the brainwashing!) I would find it a little odd, too. I've come to the conclusion that sex isn't about wild this and hardcore that for "most people," it's about a connection between one person and another. Hallmark-y, yeah... but generally true for people in relationships. While "most guys" might love that their girl does X kink, only the shitheads focus on the kink itself instead of the person. I mean, I didn't love my exwife because she did X kink, but because we both enjoyed and shared those things together. I guess my point here is that if you're focusing on how awesome it is to take a load to the face or get plowed in the ass, you're missing the fucking point. *rimshot*

I guess my point here is that sex shouldn't be masturbating using another person's body unless its strictly masturbation (hence porn).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetry
It isn't the act that causes degradation, it is the hand-me-down viewpoint that we keep alive that causes it.
Is it, now? That's funny. I didn't get a lick of hand-me-down viewpoint from anybody. Sex, for someone of my age / race / socioeconomic status, is one of those "be safe" things that nobody really explains. They say "use a condom" but don't tell you what holes. That kinda thing. Kids used to learn from Hustler magazine. Kids today learn about sex from the Web. At no point did anybody tell me that I shouldn't fishhook my girlfriend while hitting it doggy style and repeatedly calling her a whore in Hebrew. So, yeah, I think if your elders are telling you not to engage in sodomy, they're going way too deep. *rimshot* If I feel like I'm degrading a woman with something I've received no instructions on... oh, blast! It's those damn social norms, again!

/cue up Gucci and the infamous "They say they love me, so why won't they let me poop on them?" thread
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:04 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Poetry View Post
What I objected to was nothing to do with the objectification or degradation of women in porn, but with the idea that Porn For Women is supposed to be soft, fluffy, and emotional, but Porn For Men is supposed to be hardcore and objectifying.

That's sexist. That's what bothers me.

Why don't we just call fluffy softcore porn fluffy softcore porn? Why does it need to be Porn for Women?

Personally, I could be using a Hitachi and doing DP with two dildos and not be able to get off to softcore without fantasizing about something complete different than what was on the screen.

And it's not just about what I like. It is truly sexist to describe porn as "female-friendly" because the girls are smiling in it and not taking a load in the face. That's like calling Hondas "Asian Friendly" or hi-top sneakers "Black Friendly".

Don't assume what I will or will not like because I am a chick. The stereotype is not appreciated.


I think XKCD summed it up better than I could. I feel you on that poetry, I feel the same way about porn on the male side. I don't want to see "Hot Slutty MILFs Part 6" when I'm jacking off, but being male and talking to other males about porn, that's weird. "How can you NOT like that, she is totally HOT!"... because *I* don't find her hot. Hell, I'm not a big lesbian scene guy (which apparently the porn industry says I should be into cause I'm male) because when I see two women going at it my first thought it, "Well, there are two women that don't want my penis."

Give me some suicide girls and I'll wack myself into a coma.

I think it comes down to sexist stereotypes that society still has that boils over into porn. I think it has changed over the years with "indie" style porn companies and websites like suicide girls showing "non-mainstream" girls in a good light. Like anything, we need to fix the root cause of the problem and then things like this will rectify themselves over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetry View Post
Topic 1: No girl I have ever met has liked ugly girls in their porn. What a moodkill.

Topic 2: REALLY? I have an incredibly "lively" drive. I have more experience (and, often, ability) than most of the men I have slept with. Whenever I have a boyfriend, I raid his porn stash for my own use, and it's rarely hardcore enough. My last boyfriend was a major porn director, the one before that built a swing club in Hollywood. I surround myself with sex, preferably hardcore. I have a sexual bucket list. I haven't cheated on a partner in ten years, and I'm 27.

Like an alcoholic living across from a bar?? Jesus Christ.

Why can't we judge people on their personality and their values as opposed to their sexual preferences and drive?

Gah.
I think remy was talking about the "bridesmaid situation" for porn. Where the woman getting married doesn't want her bridemaids looking better than she does, so that she gets all the attention. Hot chicks in porn would steal her sexual spotlight. That's my .02.

Also, people cheat and a high sex drive doesn't mean they will cheat. People with low sex drives still cheat, because let's face it, people are going to cheat no matter what their biological function towards sex is. Cheaters going cheat.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:14 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm a dude who doesn't like the degrading stuff at all. I actually want some romance in it. New Sensations has a romance series that is really good (love story plots with very attractive couples and well shot scenes).
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
Poetry, you're so deeply submersed in the sex thing (you talk about sex like I talk about firearms) that you fail to recognize the importance of the "average female consumer" here in this discussion. This thread isn't a personal attack on you or talking about how horrible it is that women enjoy hardcore sex (those fiends!). I was under the impression that this is a discussion about the current status of hardcore porn as it applies to all women, not the insatiable sex machine called Poetry from TFP. I guess my initial point is that this was more of an academic exercise and not group therapy.

You've been on porn shoots, you've screwed/been in love with porn directors; of course you're not objective. You're not the social norm. BFD.
I find it interesting that your response brought up my personal preferences more than my own post on the topic did. Bringing to this discussion the other thread about my personal life and current situation was completely unneeded and off topic.

But since you've chosen to address it, I am aware that I am outside of the norm. I know I don't represent the average female consumer. My argument referenced once my own personal preferences, and that was more for humor than for the sake of argument. I know it doesn't count. It never does, and I accept that.

As for my text block to Remy, that was in response to one of his statements not on this topic that irritated me to the point of going off-thread to response with my own (gasp) antecdotal evidence.

Quote:
It isn't sexist to say that "most women" prefer "less hardcore" porn if it is an actual statistic or reflects a sentiment revealed through some type of formal research.
I do agree with this. However, (1) I'm waited for a unflawed, well performed study to come out and (2) it does not make the belief that softcore porn is for women any less sexist.

But I realize that I should probably define my use of sexism, so I'll snag it from dictionary.com:

sexism
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

It is sexist to assume that softcore porn is for women, or that women prefer softcore porn. It is making a judgement call on a person's sexual preferences based on their sex.

From my own experience (I know, please forgive me for presenting antecdotal evidence), the average male reacts with shock and, occasionally, disgust or arousal if I mention my porn preference. It's does not conform to the stereotype and makes me an object of interest or distaste.

And, while TFP has a number of wonderful males like Lord Eden who enjoy softcore and amateur porn for the emotional and vaguely realistic aspects of it, the average male in the "real world" would have his sexuality questioned or simply be thought of as less masculine for admitting that.

Which is also sexist. It bites both ways. I don't appreciate either of them.

Quote:
I guess my point here is that sex shouldn't be masturbating using another person's body unless its strictly masturbation (hence porn).
Unless it is agreed on by both parties that that situation is what they want. Which is an entirely different discussion on personal sexual activities, not porn, so I'm not going to start.

Quote:
Is it, now? That's funny. I didn't get a lick of hand-me-down viewpoint from anybody. ... If I feel like I'm degrading a woman with something I've received no instructions on... oh, blast! It's those damn social norms, again!
You sure do bring up your own sexual activities a lot for a discussion about porn preferences.

When I was talking about hand-me-down viewpoints about the degradation of women, I was talking about women who have sex on camera for money. I should have made that clearer and I apologize.

But if you think that you have so hand-me-down viewpoints from your parents, your friends (who get theirs from their parents), the media, or your church (if you do the church thing), you'd be wrong. Yes, it's social norms, but they are social. They do not have to be your personal norms.

As far as I can tell, if a woman gets into sex, takes it in the ass, likes a load on her face or, god forbid, does this on camera, she's allowing herself to be degraded.

What, exactly, took away her value? Where did that value orginate from? If she repents and joins a church, will her value return? Why does taking away that supposed "value" in bed turn some men on? If they enjoy what they are doing and respect themselves, then why is it degradation?


Lord Eden,

Thanks for pulling up that XKCD strip, I completely missed it and it is completely on topic.

I know it's about the bridesmaids thing, and I understand that some women may prefer it... it's just the way he wrote it sounded so creepy.

And, yes, people who cheat are going to cheat. It doesn't matter how high their sex drive is, it's their integrity that is the deciding point. However, people keep insisting that a high sex drive is more important. That belief annoys me to no end.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:04 AM   #20 (permalink)
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In my opinion, how porn actresses are treated on set is irrelevant to the material that is being produced. For instance, if I see a film in which an animal is abused I understand that it's pretend and that the Humane Society disclaimer in the closing credits is only a formality. But I can still take exception to the way that abuse is portrayed.

I don't know if the cognitive dissonance here is related to age or what, but the level of female degradation in porn has increased significantly both in extremity and in proportion to the total amount of porn produced than it was when I first watched pornography in the early 1980s. That's not to say that porn has not always been somewhat degrading to women, I mean, it has never been made *for* women and has always been predicated on the use of females as sexual objects.

If an individual finds it degrading to women and prefers something more democratic in their pornography they should be able to say so without being told they are wrong. I mean, like I said, I like it (in some circumstances) but I still understand that portraying a woman as collection of random holes to violently stuff gigantic cocks into is more than a little hostile.

As for softcore porn, when I think of softcore, I think of fuzzy lens sexcapades like the old Emmanuel movies in the 80s that used to show on HBO in the middle of the night. Those weren't made for women, either.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:12 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
In my opinion, how porn actresses are treated on set is irrelevant to the material that is being produced. For instance, if I see a film in which an animal is abused I understand that it's pretend and that the Humane Society disclaimer in the closing credits is only a formality. But I can still take exception to the way that abuse is portrayed.
Personally, I feel that were I a porn actress, I would rather be treated well and respected on set and portray being degraded than be degraded and disrespected on set and portray being in a loving relationship with someone I may not actually find attractive or even want to speak with.

But that is my preference, and I know it will not necessarily be shared.

I do understand and appreciate the metaphor about the faux animal abuse. But at the same time, those are animals that do not have a choice in what they are doing or awareness of the situation they are playing out. I understand that there is the gut-clenching reaction to watching animal abuse, even knowing it is faked, and we also react to portrayed violence and sexual assault in the same way, depending on our sensitivity levels.

However, we do not feel bad for the actress that is portraying a rape because we know it is faked. The scene may cause discomfort, but we do not worry about her psychological state because the situation is fake and she agreed to do the scene. It may cause her incredible discomfort and possibly even feel degraded, to do such a role, but it is part of whatever movie she is working on that she wants the lead in.

If we see a hardcore sex scene, because the actress has agreed to the role, she has degraded herself. And, if we have no interest in the activities we are being shown, then she must not be enjoying herself either. It must be awful. There must be no way she could actually enjoy what she's doing or who she is working with. Awful. We cringe and say that she's being degraded, that sex work is degrading.

Now, I'm not saying that it shouldn't make you cringe. Everyone has what they enjoy in bed and on the screen, and some people cannot stand even the sight of a man orgasming on a girl's face without feeling like she's being objectified.

But I am saying that we should not attempt to impress our sexual desires or distastes onto performers and judge them for their activities.

I know that's not what you're saying. It's just where I went with it. Something only becomes degrading if we allow it, encourage it, to be so.


Quote:
I don't know if the cognitive dissonance here is related to age or what, but the level of female degradation in porn has increased significantly both in extremity and in proportion to the total amount of porn produced than it was when I first watched pornography in the early 1980s. That's not to say that porn has not always been somewhat degrading to women, I mean, it has never been made *for* women and has always been predicated on the use of females as sexual objects.
I'm going to actually have to ask my ex about this. I'm not a big porn watcher-- I prefer erotic writings. However, I would venture to theorize that as the internet took off and porn became easier and easier to get for free, the companies that did manage to survive through it realized that the only way to make money anymore was to create porn that others were not creating or would not create. Supply and demand. Lots of amateur and softcore, significantly less hardcore. Then the hardcore supply rose as more companies began producing, and then it might have become a possible arms race... but with porn.

It's a theory. I'll have to check.

Quote:
If an individual finds it degrading to women and prefers something more democratic in their pornography they should be able to say so without being told they are wrong. I mean, like I said, I like it (in some circumstances) but I still understand that portraying a woman as collection of random holes to violently stuff gigantic cocks into is more than a little hostile.
I completely agree. No one should have to watch hardcore porn, just as no one should have to watch softcore. Also of great importance (at least to me), and how this discussion got started on a previous thread, was that no one should be expected to watch one or the other based on their sex.

Quote:
As for softcore porn, when I think of softcore, I think of fuzzy lens sexcapades like the old Emmanuel movies in the 80s that used to show on HBO in the middle of the night. Those weren't made for women, either.
I think those were made for comic relief.
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks to plan9 for backing me up.
I contributed to the thread because TFP is a place where we can TALK about things without banhammering somebody because they are too liberal or too conservative.

I think you might fail to realize that outside the porn industry you are in, there are people who feel so oppositely that they feel showing their ankles or skin below their neck is a sign of sexual immorality. You have to respect that each person has their view on it and of those who like porn, they too may not like it as hardcore as you.
No need to take it personally or get fired up, its just an internet thread to see people's viewpoints.
I put mine out.
and FWIW, I think Asia Carerra lives down the street from my parents. far out.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remy1492 View Post
Thanks to plan9 for backing me up.
I think you might fail to realize that outside the porn industry you are in, there are people who feel so oppositely that they feel showing their ankles or skin below their neck is a sign of sexual immorality. You have to respect that each person has their view on it and of those who like porn, they too may not like it as hardcore as you.
No need to take it personally or get fired up, its just an internet thread to see people's viewpoints.
I wasn't getting fired up about what people personally prefer in their viewing or sexual habits.

I was a little fired up about the idea that a person's gender will indicate their porn viewing material.

I was actually getting more than a little fired up about the idea that you put forth that a girl with a high sex drive is going to cheat because she can't control herself. An alcoholic living across the street from a bar and all that.

I apologize if you felt under attack. I simply react strongly to people being judged based on their sex drives and not their actual personality.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:48 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Awaiting Jimmy joining in on this thread
was just remembering - a chap we knew once came over as he needed to talk to someone I guess, a hard man, he looked shaken. He had been watching a porn movie, and realised that it was a snuff movie. He was sitting there shaking his head - 'you could see it was real'. Put him off watching porn.
If people want to be in or watch adult movies - I think its just dont involve children - or those with childs mind, and dont scare the horses. Whilst we have come across dog shaggers in real life (standard poodle bitch was being abused) - it would be perhaps nice on the part of the porn industry to say no, we do not harm animals nor film children being sexualy abused. Poetry, am interested, do they police themselves to an extent, like is there an etiquette, lines that should not be broken? One would hope there is a leper corner (other than the outside smoking area).
I found a soft porn mag once that did worry me - a top shelf mag, in a dip in some bushes behind a walkers/cyclist path and the back of a row of quiet houses. It was something like 'peeping tom monthly' - I thought it a bit worrying - wouldnt you? So I emptied my dog poop bag in it and risked a big fine had I been caught doing it.

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Old 07-09-2011, 01:48 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I'm a girl and I tend to over analyze porn videos plus I kind of picky when it comes to looking for porn which why it sometimes takes me 2-3 hours to find a decent one.

If the acting is bad I look for a new vid, If the guy/girls voice is annoying I look for a new vid, if the guy has socks or his shoes on I'm definitely looking for a new vid, If the guy doesn't make alot of noise or the girl makes too much noise I look for a new vid. The two things that I hate the most about porn is the corny dirty talk and the plastic looking, pounds of make-up, big fake tits porn stars.

As much as I get off on women fucking guys with strap ons the only typical hardcore porn I like are gang bangs.
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