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Old 09-18-2003, 09:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
Still fighting it.
 
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Question about women

I am looking for someone to refute this point of view in a convincing way, because I'm this close to actually adopting it.

Women are fundamentally duplicitous.

They say they want one thing, and yet behave in a completely contrary manner. They hold the men they claim to want at arm's length.

Part of me is sure decent ones must exist, but I've met too many who are so two-faced it is incredible.

(I'm putting this up as the kickstart to some kind of discussion about inter-gender relationships, not as a mysogynistic rant, before someone starts giving me grief.)

Last edited by flamingdog; 09-18-2003 at 09:43 AM..
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Old 09-18-2003, 09:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Edited previous post.
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Last edited by sipsake; 09-18-2003 at 09:51 AM..
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Old 09-18-2003, 09:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Okay, point taken.
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Old 09-18-2003, 09:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
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And men aren't the same way?

Case in point:

Girl meets guy. Girl and guy seemingly get along well. Numbers are exchanged. Guy says he will call, but doesnt, so girl calls guy. Guy doesn't return call. Girl and Guy meet up again. Guy has "Cell phone is messing up" excuse. Girl gives Guy benifit of the doubt. Guy asks Girl to call again. Girl says "Okay, but only if you are actually interested in hearing from me!" Guy says he is. Girl calls Guy. A week later, Guy has not returned Girls phone call.

It goes both ways...

(oh yeah, and this should go in Tilted Sexuality!)
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Old 09-18-2003, 09:58 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Location: Memphis
I don't think it's uncommon to feel that way occasionally. I know there were times I felt bitter about it. Used to drive me crazy, all the women who did nothing but complain about not being able to find a nice guy in one breath, and with the next tell me what a nice guy I was and why they couldn't date me.

Fortunately, I had plenty of female friends I respected who I knew were not duplicitous. I usually ended up writing it off as a string of bad luck. It's tough.
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Old 09-18-2003, 09:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Not all women are like this although itís been my experience that there
Are quit a few. There are ďnormalĒ ones you just have to keep looking.
If you find one, marry herÖ..thatís what I did, and Iíve been pretty
Damn happy for the last twelve years.
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Old 09-18-2003, 10:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by flamingdog
I am looking for someone to refute this point of view in a convincing way, because I'm this close to actually adopting it.

Women are fundamentally duplicitous.
Allow me to dissect this sentence:

"Women": unless you've met all 3+ billion women on the planet, it seems a little unfair to lump us all together. A more fair characterization might be "a significant number of women whom I've met and whose behavior sticks in my memory because it was so outrageous"

"are": lest I follow in the footsteps of Bill Clinton, wondering what "is" is supposed to mean, I'm gonna leave this one alone.

"fundamentally": You really think they're born that way? That it is an essential part of their being and not a learned behavior?

"duplicitous": There's a difference between being duplicitous and being confused, which is what the behavior you describe above sounds like to me. "They say they want one thing, and yet behave in a completely contrary manner." Maybe they say they want what they think they should want. Or maybe they really do want that thing but don't recognize it when they see it. Or maybe they want it and they really do also want something else. "They hold the men they claim to want at arm's length." Again - duplicitous or ambivalent?

I'm not sticking up for my fellow women - and of course I claim to be an exception to your broad-brush statement. It is pretty unhealthy to say something that's really not true. But here's something else about women, and maybe this is just as much a stereotype as your statement: a lot of women don't want to hurt people's feelings, so they say things they don't mean. Like "no you don't look fat in those pants," or "I love tuna melt, can I have the recipe?" or "Of course I love you, you're the man of my dreams." Now, it's pretty thoughtless when it's someone's feelings you're toying with and not just their vanity. But understand that people - not just women - misrepresent themselves for a variety of reasons.

Also consider that perhaps it's not all women that are duplicitous but just the ones you seem to keep meeting over and over and over again - who are you looking for, and is it possible that you just keep meeting the same personality in a different body?
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Old 09-18-2003, 10:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Location: Oklahoma
This is just people. There is this woman who lives in our neighborhood who has a child in the same t-ball league as my 4 year old. A week ago, we ran into her at the game, and she said she wanted to have lunch with my wife. This woman is a good friend of another woman in my neighborhood who grew up with my wife in a little town and they were rivals for head cheerleader, homecoming queen, etc. This other woman doesn't really like other people associating with her friend (probably since she has some really good gossip about her).

Okay, to get back to the story. My wife likes this woman we ran into at t-ball and thought she would call. The next day she calls and leaves a message trying to set up a lunch. Ten days go by with no return call. Okay, maybe she is busy or didn't get the message. Last night my wife is at t-ball, and the woman's son is playing on the team we are playing. She acted like she didn't know my wife at all (wouldn't catch her eye or anything). She is walking out in front of my wife and kids and her daughter looks back at my wife and says hi and waves. My wife stops to tie one of the kid's shoes and the woman was gone by the time she looks up. She came home all pissed off. About an hour later this woman calls and leaves a message on our machine saying she had seen my wife and had tried to stop and talk her after the game, but she was gone.

This reminds me of high school. You have to know our town, but she basically didn't want to be seen associating with a member of the opposite team and now she is trying to make it better. This is just people. Some guys do it as well as women. I don't have any use for duplicitous people and won't associate with them. I guess this is my "solution" for the problem.
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Old 09-18-2003, 03:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Amen to everything Lurkette said.

The sentence structure "(group of people) are essentially (trait)" will always, always get you into trouble. It's exactly that kind of mentality that sets up the ingroup-outgroup biases and stereotyping that people profess to hate but propagate anyway.

Just be careful with what you say and what you believe.

I know plenty of women whom I can take at face value. Many of them are personal friends. I don't think we're all that different.
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Old 09-18-2003, 08:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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part of life is being able to understand who and what elements you are attracted to in your relationships, and these are personal ones. As I grew up and matured, so did my decisions of who I wanted to share my life with. And this person ended up being nothing short of a miracle.
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Old 09-18-2003, 10:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Some people are too caught up in their own crap to find common ground with someone.
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Location: northern california
Every response you have had on this have had some valid point.
Guys look at thing in a different way than we do. For example When you guys get pissed off ate each other you argue or fight but it is overand you go on with life.. It is far more complex for us. First you say she looks lovely in her outfit and then call your friends and ask then what she was thinking when she put taht on. Arguments between us can steam for months even years.

Many women try to relate to men as they would there girlfriends.
they dont understand how to talk to guys. you guys just want a straight answer. Like "If I buy you dinner and take you to your stupid play will I get sex." We cant say yes because all the excitement would be gone and you guys would say "... Well will I get sex if we dont go to the play.... or how about we dont go to dinner and just have sex..." I know I stabbed at it I hope I got to the point
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Old 09-19-2003, 03:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The key to all things is communication. It all begins and ends right there. Not superfluous chit-chat, but real, definitions and explanations of definitions. It requires actively listening to another person and not interpreting or assuming you know what the other means. To put aside your own bias and actually ask a person what they mean, at the risk of appearing naiive, is as honest as a person can get. Try it. Try asking a girl to explain things to you that you do not understand. And do not be afraid to question more thoroughly the answers you get. It is at once flattering and fulfilling. Why leave things open to misinterpretation when you can have the answer and clarity, too?
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Old 09-19-2003, 05:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
Still fighting it.
 
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Okay, I'm not going to respond to any specific points right now, I just want to make two things clear.

(a) I realise a formulation like 'All Xs are Ys' is a bit clumsy, but I felt it encapsulated what I was trying to say, and I didn't want to confuse the crux of the point by formulating it in a more complicated way.

(b) I'm really grateful for some of the insights I've read.

Thanks.
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Old 09-19-2003, 07:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I say one thing and do another all the time.

The men need to be kept on their toes.......what fun would it be if I were 100% predictable all the time?
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Old 09-19-2003, 08:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
Psycho
 
How exactly do you mean women are duplicitous anyways, put down some examples to work with.
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Old 09-19-2003, 10:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
Hiya Puddin'! Miss me?
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
If you're going to adopt a wide accusation such as that, it most assuredly can be applied to both genders. I know a fair share of duplicitous men. Maybe even more men than women...

It goes both ways, matey.
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Old 09-20-2003, 04:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
Still fighting it.
 
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It's when a girl says she loves you but she's not in love with you, when she tells you you're a great guy who's going to make somebody very happy one day... just not her. It's when they say they want a guy who wants to do the things they want to do, a guy who's attentive in every way, a guy with a brain and a sense of humour, then they turn around and march up to the nearest dickhead with his collar flipped up drinking lager and watching football.

Nice guys finish last, and women play men like me for suckers.
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Old 09-20-2003, 11:09 AM   #19 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Why do I get this burning feeling that you're reading women wrong? That's probably why you think they are duplicitous.
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Old 09-20-2003, 02:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
Hiya Puddin'! Miss me?
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by flamingdog
It's when a girl says she loves you but she's not in love with you, when she tells you you're a great guy who's going to make somebody very happy one day... just not her. It's when they say they want a guy who wants to do the things they want to do, a guy who's attentive in every way, a guy with a brain and a sense of humour, then they turn around and march up to the nearest dickhead with his collar flipped up drinking lager and watching football.

Nice guys finish last, and women play men like me for suckers.

All of which could be said for certain types of men, too. Trust me on this.

The solution here is to meet a different type of woman. Since you're probably sticking to one particular social scene, you're probably only meeting one kind of woman! Trust me, there are women out there that aren't duplicitous, just as there are men who aren't.
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Last edited by motdakasha; 09-20-2003 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:05 AM   #21 (permalink)
Still fighting it.
 
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It was also suggested to me at one point that I try and meet older women a la The Graduate. I dunno, I know in my heart of hearts it can't be true, but every last woman I meet, even the ones I consider friends, are like this.
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:17 AM   #22 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Tampa
Their hearts and their survival instincts are at constant odds with eachother. "Duplicitous" is the perfect word. Funny how a friend of mine used the same word for describing them.

Women want love and affection, but they are also drawn to power in the form of confidence. It's a genetic trait that cant be rubbed out, just like the gene that makes us want to bang every woman we see. We can control the urges to some degree but we sacrifice our nature.

I'd have to say most women are manipulative and irrational but you have to realize that when you guard the gates of paradise you can afford to be that way; it's almost demanded from you.

People always want what they cant have, that's why the nice guys never win, they're too easy.
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:19 AM   #23 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Tampa
Quote:
Originally posted by *Nikki*
I say one thing and do another all the time.

The men need to be kept on their toes.......what fun would it be if I were 100% predictable all the time?

Please tell me why we need to be kept on our toes. Life is a bitch enough as it is trying to get into your pants.
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