mosha

If anyone caught that fight tonight on HBO, what do you think, is he done for good? I think he looked terrible, he was never even in the fight. All he did was sit back and play defense, it may be time to hang up the gloves.

yoda77

retire? hes done retirement went out hte window 2 fightrs ago

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radioguy

it sucks that all of today's fighters, as most people know them, are retiring. tyson, holyfield, de la hoy, jones jr.,.... is there a new crop of names that can revive boxing? i've seen on tv that boxing is at a low point. is that true to you true boxing fans? i'm not one, i just follow the big fights and names. we didn't have a good showing in the olympics in boxing. does that show a decline in the skills of our boxers?

mosha

honestly i pretty much only follw the big fights as well but I hate to see all the people I have come to know and think cant lose falling off that pedestal one by one.

docbungle

Yes he should retire.

BUT, he has been grossly overrated for years and years and years. He was never really as good as everyone gives him credit for. He has hand-picked his opponents for most of his carreer, and they have ALL been low-caliber opponents (since his fight with Hopkins, he has fought no one of signifigance until Tarver, who knocked him out). So he never really proved anything in my mind. Montell Griffin was probably the best fighter that he beat in that time period.

When you throw a real opponent in front of him, it becomes immediately obvious that he is not the best fighter pound for pound, nor has he ever been. Of course if you put him in front of shitty fighters that no one's ever heard of he will look phenomenal. I'm amazed none of the HBO commentators touched on this.

Tarver took a lot out of him. But Jones avoided that fight until it was unavoidable. Because he knows, deep down, that he isn't as good as the world thinks he is. He lives in a fantasy land, with all his people telling him how great he is. He also has way too much pride, so that when something like this happens, it is absolutely devastating to him and virtually impossible to recover from.

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docbungle

Absolutely.
Miguel Cotto, Jeff "left hook" Lacy, Trinidad returning, Mayorga still in the game, Cory Spinks looks unstoppable, Panchita Bohado (sp?), Sharmba Mitchell, etc, etc...

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Kurant

dubble postz0r

Kurant

I finally watched the whole fight, last night I only saw from about the 5th on. It's clearly, clearly evident Jones just doesn't have it anymore. He gets hit with punches he never would before. He has little to no lateral movement, and isn't fast enough to fight from the outside anymore.

Overrated? I still don't think so, it's evident age has caught him.

Reitre? Yes.

Jones has lost what kept him in the game so long. His speed is gone, his legs are gone, and I said it about 2 years ago when he fought Ruiz, if he ever loses his footspeed and footwork, and loses the ability to fight from the outside with the amazing lateral movement he uses, he's done. He's lost that. It appears Jones just doesn't have it anymore. Boxing can still be "saved". Bungle mentioned Cotto, he forgot Jermaine Taylor. I can't believe he mentioned Mayorga in that sentence. He's a brawling clown, but a big draw, none the less.

BTW, I personally am very excited Jones got knocked out, not because he got knocked out, but because IMO, this absolutley ensures Jermaine Taylor gets a shot at Bernard Hopkins before Hopkins calls it quits.

Anomaly_

I've said it before: fighters who depend on their natural ability will fall off quickly. Guys like Jones and Ali eventually find that they can't get away with backward movement and other boxing no-noes. Nonetheless, Jones (except for his last two fights), has always been a delight to watch because of his slickness. Who else could use a jumping left hook like a jab so indiscriminately?

As for the future of boxing, just forget your heavyweight bias and look to the lower weight classes.

docbungle

That brawling clown kicked the shit out of Vernon Forrest and will do the same to Trinidad.

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jamessh1

this guy knows nothing about boxing, and seems to be a typical roy jones hater. Everyone forgets that roy beat a prime james toney at 168 pounds when james was seem as the best and totally unstoppable. Roy had too many unworthy mandatories, it cant even be argued, but to say he is grossly over-rated is a ridiculous comment. its time for roy to retire, his reflexes and desire are totally gone.

docbungle

First off, you know nothing about what I know about boxing.

Second, I am not a Jones hater. It is obvious too me that he is (or was) overrated by pretty much everyone. So he beat Toney, so what? He beat Hopkins, too. So you have two top-tier type fighters that he beat in his entire carreer. How does that make him the best? He dominated everyone else in the division because there was no one else in the division. He avoided a rematch with Hopkins and a fight with Tarver, which were the fights everyone wanted to see. Oh, and Hopkins was nowhere near his prime when Jones won a decision over him.

3rd, Jones has no chin. Now that he can't move around the ring like he used to, and now that he can't leave his left hand dangling by his side isnstead of protecting his face (due to his apparent loss of speed) he actually gets hit. Which he doesn't seem to handle all that well.

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Kurant

Well, you can have an opinion on who wins. I'm glad you think this is the type of fighter that keeps intrest in boxing. It's not mine. I have my own opinions about Trinidad/Mayorga. Simply because the things Spinks did so well against Mayorga, moving, countering, are all things Trinidad excelled at. No, I don't hate Mayorga, I don't discount his fighting, just his style. It's easily beaten for fighters willing to move, and not fight straight ahead. It's just a fact. Mayorga is a wild man in the ring, but he's not good enough or have enough boxing know-how to handle Trinidad, but that's another thread.


I don't think Jones' chin is in question either. He was hit with 8 or 9 GOOD right hands in that fight. There were some right hands even better then that one, that hit his chin. Apparently, you didn't watch the reply 400 times like they showed it on HBO, the punch didn't hit Jones' chin, either. It hit behind his ear, which is a pressure point. Take your hand, make a fist and push just behind/below your ear lobe, it's quite evident. It has nothing to do with a good chin. It's just like the kidney shot DLH took, the blow was right where it needed to be. You can research it yourself if you like.

Like I said, I don't consider Jones overrated. Jones was the best light heavy of his era. He lost his legs, he lost his speed, no lateral movement, even less punching power, he just can't do it anymore. That doesn't constitute being overrated. That constitutes age. There is a big difference.

docbungle

Well, there's no denying that Mayorga is not a talented boxer. Of course I know that he's not. I think he will defeat Trinidad (even though I don't want to see that happen...I think this is a bad fight for Trinidad to take) in the same fashion he beat Forrest, even though Forrest is not as good as Tito, imo. Tito doesn't have the type of movement or speed that Spinks does. Spinks uses the entire ring while Tito likes to stalk an opponent. He has a little movement, but really just bouncing around a little and moving his upper body side to side. I don't see him avoiding Mayorga's huge shots. And Mayorga has proven he can take a lot of punishment. I think that, even though nowhere near as talented, Mayorga punches a lot harder than Hopkins.

However, if Trinidad can weather the storm and beat Mayorga, I I hope he stays unretired for a while. Especially with all the young guys coming up. There will be so many opportunities for great matchups.

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Sargeman

So who was there in his prime that he avoided? I don't remember but I don't think there was anyone in his class that was a big name boxer that he avoided.

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Kurant

Trinidad excelled at lateral movement. While not as fast, moving side to side was somthing he was good at. You have to remember too, Mayorga hand speed will be a little bit slower then fighting Spinks as well. He's put on weight to get to Trinidad. He's also a good counter puncher, another thing Spinks did very well against Mayorga.

Jones never avoided anyone in his class, it was the people outside his class that they call him a chump for avoiding, and that's exactly my point. Hopkins called him out when he was training to go to 190. That fight had no chance of happening then. Lennox retired, and James Toney had his chance, and chose to move up and fight Holyfield. There was no one for him to fight. He's natrually talented at being fast, and counter punching, dodging, throwing little jabs, and all the other boxing no-can-do's that no one else can do, but him. Once you lose the talent of speed when you fight like Jones, you just can't fight anymore. He's lost it. That once great lateral movement is gone. He's not overrated, people just can't deal with the fact he's not as good as he was. That's not what being overrated is. You can't call Ali overrated for getting beated by Holmes, he just wasen't as fast, or as good as he used to be.

docbungle

That's my point. There was no one in light heavyweight that was worth fighting. So the fact that he beat them all doesn't mean much. His blazing speed and movement would not have been as evident against higher quality opponents. He moved up until he found a weight class where there were no quality opponents, found that he liked it there, and stayed there.

He moved up to heavyweight recently to take on John Ruiz, an absolute sloth in the ring. Jones boxed circles around him, of course. I respect him for doing this, but I still see it as a trivial thing that posed no real threat for Jones.

Jones was phenomenal early in his career. He was robbed at the olympics and took out his anger on his first bunch of pro opponents. But that was a looong time ago. All I'm saying is that, since that time, years and years ago, he hasn't fought anyone worthwhile. And maybe, just maybe that is why everyone was so shocked when Tarver took it to him. Jones isn't accustomed to fighting people that are even remotely on his own skill level.

From cbssports:

*Some in boxing had always said Jones picked his opponents too carefully and refused to fight anyone who might pose a danger to him. His record was littered with obscure opponents, and even his foray into the heavyweight ranks came against a slow, inept boxer in John Ruiz. For years, Jones lived off the controversy of his gold medal loss in Seoul and took advantage of an HBO television contract that paid him $5 million a fight to defend his title against the likes of forgettable fighters like Clinton Woods and Glenn Kelly.*

The fact that I agree with this does not make me a Jones hater. I have never called Jones a "chump." If you need to continue to classify me as such, then whatever man. I just call it like I see it. I've watched all of his fights and followed his career closely, and that's what I've seen. I agree that he was the best light heavy out there for his entire reign. All I'm saying is that light-heavy is, and has been for a long time, a weak division. Is this Jones' fault? No, of course not. But the best fighters in just about every other division, the champions, took the big risks and fought the best fighters out there, regardless if it meant moving up or down a few pounds or losing an idividual belt that no one cared about. Roy didn't. He hid behind his belts, and fought all the "mandatory challengers." For ten years. He took a chance at heavyweight only because it was John Ruiz. He deserves credit for doing it, but it really wasn't a huge accomplishment.

Another knock on Jones is his aloofness and refusal to give anyone else credit for anything at all. He said of Tarver, after Tarver knocked him out:

(AP) "What basically happened was I probably got bored with this guy," Jones said.

This is a typical Jones response, and an example of his extreme sense of pride getting in the way of acknowledging the truth.

Sidenote---I remember reading something a while ago, I don't remember where, in which Roy Jones was talking about a friend of his that had died in the ring, after taking too much damage in a fight. He gave the impression that this had affected him deeply, and changed the way he felt about fighting. He said he never wanted to hurt anyone like that. He said that had a lot to do with why he used the style that he did, boxing circles around people instead of trying to knock them out. I wish I could remember where I saw this. Anyway, I thought it was interesting...

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Anomaly_

Well it seems Mr. Jones doesn't understand the nature of brain damage because his plan has no guarantee of doing less damage. Sure a knockout is instantly concussive, but an accumulation of "soft" punches can be just as damaging in the long term. Just as an anecdotal survey of deaths or severe impairment, I can't think of many that were the result of early KOs as opposed to drawn out wars.

Personally, I think knockdowns should be done away with. Sports-wise not only does it allow the loser to recover, but it also allows an already hurt individual to be punished even more. Some may say this is the nature of boxing with Rocky comebacks and all, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Kurant

Give me a break.

I didn't classify you as anything, Doc. Matter infact, I'm really not sure where you got that from. Your name wasen't even mentioned.

"they" and "chump" was simply loose terms to get my point across, I wasen't aware either were indictive of pointing fingers at you, specifically.

cxnaj20

I think he's been overrated since the beginning, sure, hang up the gloves!!

docbungle

Kurant, sorry...I took the wrong impression from your post. My apologies.

Anomaly, I think the essence of what Jones was saying is that is is very possible to kill someone in the ring, and he wanted to do the best he could at refraining from doing that.

Anyhow, I don't like to see anyone get knocked out like he did. It's a great knockdown at first, but when you see how really hurt he is, it's pretty scary.

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Anomaly_

Yes, and my point is that Jones doesn't realize peppering a guy for 12 rounds can easily be just as bad as a knockout haymaker.

Anyway...the result of this fight probably screws Tarver the most. Not only will he not get the lucrative rubber match, but his win against Jones doesn't look as impressive anymore.

docbungle

This journalist seemed to hit the nail on the head, in my mind...

from Boston Globe:

For too many years, people who should have known better kept mentioning the four-time world champion as the heir to the throne Robinson held as the best boxer ever. This seemed ridiculous to some because Robinson fought and defeated everyone while Jones fought and defeated no one. Yet the more Jones beat up on second-tier fighters, the more his advocates tried to make him out as the next Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, or Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Among his victims were a schoolteacher, a fireman, a policeman, and a sanitation worker. He even did something that hadn't been done in 100 years when, as a former middleweight champion, he moved up to heavyweight and won a form of that title when he beat John Ruiz.

It was a carefully picked opponent who allowed Jones to avoid the true champion, Lennox Lewis, and still get credit for the feat. As skilled as Jones was as a fighter, he was even more skilled as a mass marketer and con man. He could fight, no question, but his opponents were carefully picked.

Many observers, like his opponents, were blinded by his speed and reflexes, never noticing that technically he was not sound in many areas and would one day pay a severe price if he ever got in the ring with the kind of opponents Robinson regularly faced during his long career. Writers voted him fighter of the decade in the 1990s, taking the award away from Evander Holyfield and making themselves look foolish.

The point here is not to denigrate Jones after he was knocked cold for the second straight time Saturday night, but to point out that the greatest of fighters don't end up the way he did against Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson -- regardless of advancing years. Losing is not the issue. The issue is, how did anyone ever compare Jones to Ray Robinson, who was the most beautiful boxer and most dangerous fighter ever? What were Jones's greatest victories? Ruiz? A decision over an out-of-shape James Toney? A lackluster win against Bernard Hopkins 11 years ago on a night when both seemed unwilling to take a risk?

Why was there never a rematch with Hopkins, who has not lost since that decision and who pursued Jones for years? Why was there never a rematch with Toney, who chased Jones up in weight several times without being able to get a second shot?

Whereas Robinson fought Jake LaMotta five times, Jones never gave any challenger a second chance except for Montell Griffin, and that was only because Griffin beat him by disqualification in their first fight, and Tarver, who knocked him cold in their rematch after a controversial decision in the first fight. Continued...

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_s...nce_for_jones/

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