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Old 12-15-2004, 08:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
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How long before MLB collapses?

Now, I love baseball--college, minor league, major league, little league--but I don't see how MLB is going to survive without a salary cap.

I think deep pockets are ruining the game, driving a wedge between fans and franchises, and slowly eating away what use to be America's favorite pasttime. It makes me sick to see certain teams loading up with all-stars year after year and other teams watching their young stars jump ship for a big contract.

Do you think the player's union will every allow a salary cap? If so, how do you think this will occur? If not, how long do you think it will be before it implodes?
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I doubt you'll ever see a salary cap come from the Players Union considering their history with the league and they way players were always treated in the past (even though it seemed to have a great affect on the game overall with its quality of players, etc...)

The league will only collapse if the owners can't make back their money, or are bought out by some young rapscallion (always wanted to say that word in a post.) From my knowledge, the old leagues only ever went under because of bankruptcy. Hmm... man, I don't think I really answered anything here...
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't think a salary cap is going to matter

Its a salary FLOOR that we need - owners that don't even pay to field a competitive team. Instead, half the money given to them goes straight to their pockets.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I see no reason why MLB has to collapse. When this collective bargaining agreement runs out, after the '06 season I believe, we may see a lockout or strike. It is too early to say.

But MLB is making money hand over fist, and is really doing quite well in almost every concievable way.

Salary caps and salary floors are terrible ideas, by the way. Which team is it, exactly, that isn't spending enough to field a competetive team? The lowest payrolls go to the A's, the Twins, the Devil Rays, the Brewers, the Pirates. The A's and Twins are really good. The latter three have been famously mismanaged. There is NO correllation between low payrolls and on-field success. The Twins have a payroll as low as just about anyone, and have done quite well, as have the A's. It is very possible to do well without much money. Money only buys security - i.e., extra depth.
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't think Major League Baseball will have a salary cap anytime soon, and I don't think it will suffer consequently. Personally, I wish there was a salary cap in baseball. Despite some low market teams doing well, it still doesn't justify the fact this fact: a team like the Yankees can literally spend hundreds of millions of dollars on players (Giambi, Vasquez) that don't really help them win, but still be among the best teams in baseball. No bullshit reasoning (success of low market teams, abiding by the rules of MLB, or reinvesting into your team) changes my mind. I am not singling out the Yankees either; I am a big Braves fan. I admit that there is no way they could have achieved the same success they have for more than a decade without having a higher payroll the most teams.

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Old 12-15-2004, 01:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The collapse I was thinking of has less to do with the organization of MLB than it does fan support. The amount of interest and support in the sport has fallen off so much in the last 15 years that is boggles the mind. I think fans will continue to turn away from the sport because of the outrageous salaries, steroid use, free-agency team hopping, and massive budget discrepancies.

I simply fear that, unless something is done to prevent this all from getting more out of control than it already is, no one will care in 20 years...
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guthumba
The collapse I was thinking of has less to do with the organization of MLB than it does fan support. The amount of interest and support in the sport has fallen off so much in the last 15 years that is boggles the mind. I think fans will continue to turn away from the sport because of the outrageous salaries, steroid use, free-agency team hopping, and massive budget discrepancies.

I simply fear that, unless something is done to prevent this all from getting more out of control than it already is, no one will care in 20 years...
The thing is, most of that has happened due to the labor troubles, especially the '94 strike.

Fan support has been rising constantly since the strike ended, so that isn't really a good point.

I would LOVE to see a salary cap in baseball, under certain rules (see Fair Ball by Bob Costas for the system I support most). However, I honestly don't think it is a critical need right now.
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Old 12-15-2004, 02:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Going to be the same situation as hockey, I doubt there will be a hockey season next year either.

Bit off topic but yeah doubt there will be a common ground as both sides are greedy. Money talks nowadays nothing is about love for the game.
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Old 12-15-2004, 02:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Has fan support really been rising? That surprises me. I'm sure the revenues are rising since it cost you $100 for two decent tickets, a couple beers, some hotdogs, and a ball cap.

Everyone I know could care less about baseball. The only baseball anyone gets excited about around here is college ball and the College World Series.

Maybe it's a regional thing...maybe I just miss the "good old days"...I suppose I've just always seen baseball through the eyes of youth and maybe I'm seeing it now for what it really it. I guess it's jsut odd having players go from larger-than-life idols in your eyes to overpaid and immoral crybabies.

Oh well...
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Old 12-15-2004, 02:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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No, fan support is really quite high. People don't realize how high it is, but viewership for the World Series is regularly far, far higher than that of the NBA Championships or Stanley Cup. MLB is doing fine. Only the NFL gets higher ratings, and considering that they have only 16 games per team, one-game elimination playoffs, and a championship that is one game long, that makes sense.

MLB gets really very good ratings, even while playing 162 game season, 4 5-game playoff series, 2 7-game playoff series, and one 7-game championship series.
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Old 12-15-2004, 02:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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MLB is the second highest rated sport next to football IIRC. So finding fan support isn't a problem. In addition studies show fan support is rising.
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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One way you can look at it is like this.
We are currently in the hight of the NFL season almost at the apex (play offs) we are full swing in the NBA and MLB is eating upp all the headlines yet it is over 5 months away.
I say the baseball interest is still strong
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guthumba
Has fan support really been rising? That surprises me. I'm sure the revenues are rising since it cost you $100 for two decent tickets, a couple beers, some hotdogs, and a ball cap.

Everyone I know could care less about baseball. The only baseball anyone gets excited about around here is college ball and the College World Series.

Maybe it's a regional thing...maybe I just miss the "good old days"...I suppose I've just always seen baseball through the eyes of youth and maybe I'm seeing it now for what it really it. I guess it's jsut odd having players go from larger-than-life idols in your eyes to overpaid and immoral crybabies.

Oh well...
Your location says "Columbia, SC," so I think that is part of why you say no one really cares about MLB there. You don't really have a local baseball team. Plus, USC generally has a pretty good baseball team IIRC, so that could be it as well.

I don't think that kind of thing is limited to baseball. I doubt people in Lincoln, Nebraska, care about the NFL much, or people in Durham, North Carolina, about the NBA.

What you're talking about is a regional thing it seems to me. As another example, people here in Baltimore are going to start getting ready for lacrosse season soon. I doubt people in Kansas would care about lacrosse; it's a regional thing.

In areas with baseball, it is still a top draw.
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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MLB sure has screwed up the Expos ordeal. Why not allow them to get local ownership in MOntreal and stay there
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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As long as the MLB stays strike free they will be fine. I don't think they need a salary cap. I like the luxury tax concept.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:11 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I also like the luxury tax concept, but I'm also not a fan of Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Minnesota, Oakland or any of the many smaller-market teams.

The problem with the current system is a team like Oakland has to be almost 100% perfect in player decision it makes just to reach the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Yankees can screw up over and over again and just pay their way out of it. They're all but assured a playoff berth before the season even begins.
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Since 1979, there have been 25 World Series played, and 18 different franchises that have won (PIT, PHI, LA, STL, BAL, DET, KC, NYM, NYY, MIN, OAK, CIN, TOR, ATL, FLA, ANA, ARI, BOS). This is in a sport with no salary cap.

Since 1979, here have been 25 NBA Championships played, and only 8 different franchises that have won (SEA, LAL, BOS, PHI, DET, CHI, HOU, SA). This is in a sport WITH a salary cap.

Since 1979, there have been 25 Super Bowls played, and only 13 different franchises have won (PIT, OAK/LA, SF, WAS, CHI, NYG, DAL, GB, DEN, STL, BAL, TB, NE). This is in a sport WITH a salary cap.

So, how will a salary cap increase parity in baseball the way it has in football and basketball?

Stick with the luxury tax. Every owner in baseball voted for it but George. So it's their rules he's playing by now. He's paying the small market teams to help them compete with the Yankees and they still don't want to. It's not his fault any more. If you are the owner of a sports franchise and the first thing on your mind when you wake up and the last thing on your mind before you go to bed is not "How can I make my team better" then you need to sell your team to someone who truly has that competitive fire. Here's a short list (George, Mark Cuban, Pat Croce, Al Davis, Jerry Jones, Jerry Buss, Ted Turner before he suddenly decided to sell the team) then sell your team to someone who is. Running a successful sports franchise isn't supposed to be a hobby. You have a duty to your fans, especially if you want them to continue to come to the games. Deliver a winner or get the hell out. George, unlike most MLB owners, realizes that.

-Mikey
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Old 12-17-2004, 04:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I dont care anymore.. my Dodgers.. my poor poor Dodgers have been decimated by Frank McCourt! I've lost the will to live!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa
Since 1979, there have been 25 World Series played, and 18 different franchises that have won (PIT, PHI, LA, STL, BAL, DET, KC, NYM, NYY, MIN, OAK, CIN, TOR, ATL, FLA, ANA, ARI, BOS). This is in a sport with no salary cap.

Since 1979, here have been 25 NBA Championships played, and only 8 different franchises that have won (SEA, LAL, BOS, PHI, DET, CHI, HOU, SA). This is in a sport WITH a salary cap.

Since 1979, there have been 25 Super Bowls played, and only 13 different franchises have won (PIT, OAK/LA, SF, WAS, CHI, NYG, DAL, GB, DEN, STL, BAL, TB, NE). This is in a sport WITH a salary cap.

So, how will a salary cap increase parity in baseball the way it has in football and basketball?

Stick with the luxury tax. Every owner in baseball voted for it but George. So it's their rules he's playing by now. He's paying the small market teams to help them compete with the Yankees and they still don't want to. It's not his fault any more. If you are the owner of a sports franchise and the first thing on your mind when you wake up and the last thing on your mind before you go to bed is not "How can I make my team better" then you need to sell your team to someone who truly has that competitive fire. Here's a short list (George, Mark Cuban, Pat Croce, Al Davis, Jerry Jones, Jerry Buss, Ted Turner before he suddenly decided to sell the team) then sell your team to someone who is. Running a successful sports franchise isn't supposed to be a hobby. You have a duty to your fans, especially if you want them to continue to come to the games. Deliver a winner or get the hell out. George, unlike most MLB owners, realizes that.

-Mikey
There is at least one thing wrong with this post: the NFL salary cap has only existed for 10-12 years, so going back to 1979 isn't really fair. Same with the NBA, although I don't know when they got their salary cap.

Now, your overall point is right in that a salary cap probably wouldn't increase the number of different teams that much. However, it WOULD take away team's ability to spend spend spend, and hide mistakes.

When the Yankees can spend well over $200 million, and only 3-4 other teams have a chance at half of that number, there is something wrong.
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa
...Running a successful sports franchise isn't supposed to be a hobby. You have a duty to your fans, especially if you want them to continue to come to the games. Deliver a winner or get the hell out...

-Mikey
I agree completely with this sentiment. Really, look at how the majority? of franchises are making money nowadays. That's through publicly funded stadiums. Since we're footing the bill, we deserve to have owners interested in winning.

On another matter, I hate it when sportswriters criticize fans as being "bad." I consider myself a dedicated fan, but I never even went to any of my city's games. Why? Because I'm not willing to spend 100 dollars that I don't have to sit through one. Just something that annoys me.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
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There is no chance in baseball as we speak for a small market team to have consistent performences year in, and year out. You will find the Yankees and Boston close or winning (Well, in the Yankee's case) year after year simply because big George has the money to spend, and is willing to pay the 58 million dollars or whatever he paid 2 years ago in luxury tax. You may get the occasianl Flordia Marlins, or Arizona Diamondbacks, but those little markets really can't afford the guys that want the mega deals, liek the Beltre, or Beltrans, the Bonds, the A-Rod's. Look at Texas, in complete dissary because of A-Rod's 26 million a year they had to pay him. Yes, they made the choice, but it's also the choice you must make to win in the American league with the Yankees.

The Yankees are the reason (Not the Yankees specifially, but the way they conduct business within the league.)this league will continue to falter, it's not tainted, and will be losing fans. I personally was absolutley appauled the Yankees are able to get another mega-star like Randy Johnson. I don't blame the Yankees, or Big George for how he conducts business, because this is the way it's been structured and this is the way baseball has been made. MLB has to do somthing, and if they don't baseball becomes more of a joke every year.

Last edited by Kurant; 12-17-2004 at 10:24 PM..
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Old 12-18-2004, 06:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Mikey C, you made some good points, but the years you mentioned in the NBA there was a man named Jordan playing... HE didn't rape his team to get paid excessive amounts he took what he needed and told Da Bulls to put and keep good players around him. Magic did the same thing it was called teamwork. Today, the players are playing for themselves NOT for the team, NOT to win but for that next big contract.... it's far far more evident in MLB, but is in all sports.

Eventually, MLB, NBA and NFL players will have to do what the NHL players are ending up doing..... cutting salaries 25%. If they don't then what we will probably end up watching more strike and lockout seasons than played seasons.

As for your Ted Turner..... he didn't sell the Braves, Turner merged with Time/Warner and he had to share control then when they merged with AOL he was forced out. He had a no interest for 5 yr. contract with them in which he could partake in NO AOL/TIme Warner business.... that contract ends this year.... have a feeling old Teddy is coming back hard and fast. Especially since his nemesis Murdoch (Turner and Murdoch truly hate each other) has gained so much in the past 5 year.

But you did name some great names. Owners that know if they spend the money it takes to win they will have winners. However, Steinbrenner in Baseball can keep spending money hand over fist because his m,arket is unlimited. Cleveland's for example reached it's peak in the mid-late 90's and you knew it wasn't going to get much higher, it couldn't. So there has to be consideration for this.

It can be argued though, if the owner spends the money on the team and keeps a decent team and fan attendance keeps rising or levels at a high threshold then his investment when he sells the team will pay the dividends for the losses incurred for fielding those winning teams.

And BTW once the Yankees start building the new stadium, George won't have to pay the luxury tax because he's putting money into the stadium and that is in the owners agreement..... if an owner puts money into a new stadium the team is then exempt from the luxury tax.
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