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Old 01-29-2005, 07:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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ESPN Reporting Sammy Sosa has been traded.

To Baltimore for Jimmy Hairston and at least two propects.

I saw this last night, but ESPN was unsure who was involved, so I didn't post it.

Cubs fans, what do you think? Or non-Cubbies fans?

My own personal opinion, the fact that Sammy is gone, reguardless of his amazing ability to hit home-runs the Cubs seriously lack alot of ability to play small-ball. They live by the home run. Sammy's career is obviously on the way towards the downslope, and the city of Chicago wanted more then some guy out there smashing 450+ foot homers and striking out 150+ times a year. Cubs fans got a taste of what is was like to be that close, and when Sammy came in this year with his worst back-to-back years since 1997, criticized Dusty Baker, and the Cubs as a whole, I knew it was time for him to go. He was no longer the center of attention. Cubs fans want to win, they aren't happy being the loveable losers anymore, and I think this trade was an absolute neccessity to make that happen.

Now, who do the Cubs get in right field? I'm hoping they sign Magglio Ordonez and he plays in right field. Hairston also has a good enough arm to play right field, and has the ability to be a better lead-off then Patterson.

Obviously we don't know ALL the details yet, but I would assume Chicago negotiated part of the 36 million they owe him because he was traded that Baltimore pays part of that.
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Old 01-29-2005, 08:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think the Cubs actually got a pretty good deal, they dumped a player who everyone from the fans to the players to management hated and got a good player and prospects in return. From what ESPN says, he's a crappy teammate and a moody guy who's in the twilight of a steriod-induced career, not to mention that he's had a history of injury the past few years. I really did enjoy the '98 season with Sosa and Big Mac going after the HR record, and I appreciate that it rejuvinated baseball, but in the long run, the Cubs proved they couldn't win a pennant with him.
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Old 01-29-2005, 08:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurant
Obviously we don't know ALL the details yet, but I would assume Chicago negotiated part of the 36 million they owe him because he was traded that Baltimore pays part of that.
The Cubs will pay 10 million of his 17 million dollar salary for 2005, and Sosa agreed to void his 18 million dollar salary in 2006. The 2006 year was a club option, but if traded, it would be guaranteed with a 4.5 million dollar buyout.

As on O's fan, I am happy with the deal. Their off-season has sucked so far, and they did not have many options left. He still gives you some bat, they did not give up too much to get him, and he will sell some tickets. I like Sosa and hope he stays healthy in 05.
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Old 01-29-2005, 09:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Damn if all the Cubs wanted was Hairston....lol the Tribe could have given the Cubs a bit more..... Hell Cincy could have given a little something something up.

Baltimore gave up a .280 hitter with a little speed, who may get better in the NL for a broken down "ME" player, who may hit 50 in the smaller AL parks. I guess it is even.

PS> With this trade if I were still a betting man, my money would be on the Cubbies getting Magglio now.
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Old 01-29-2005, 02:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Not thrilled to have Sammy in the AL East, but at least he's not in Boston. Baltimore will still finish 3rd behind Evil Empires A and B but at least they'll have some longballs to watch.

Cue djtestudo...

-Mikey
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Old 01-29-2005, 03:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa
Not thrilled to have Sammy in the AL East, but at least he's not in Boston. Baltimore will still finish 3rd behind Evil Empires A and B but at least they'll have some longballs to watch.

Cue djtestudo...

-Mikey
I'm just as happy he's not in Boston. I was hoping King George would waste more of his money and bring him into the zoo.

Based on last season's records, it would appear that Baltimore has become even more of a pain in the ass to the Red Sox. I don't remember the exact records but with the Yanks and Sox flip-flopping records against the O's, the Sox lost the division due to Baltimore playing them tough.

I liked Jerry Hairston Jr. a lot. I think he might be a solid pick-up for the Cubbies than most are thinking. Power hitters don't always win World Series titles or even get your team into the playoffs.
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Old 01-29-2005, 05:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa
Not thrilled to have Sammy in the AL East, but at least he's not in Boston. Baltimore will still finish 3rd behind Evil Empires A and B but at least they'll have some longballs to watch.

Cue djtestudo...

-Mikey


baltimore third? not if my jays have anything to say about it!!!! Hard to say if the trade is good or not for Baltimore, sure he is an instant fan draw, and i can say that i am going to go see him when they come to toronto. But the last time I saw sammy on tv hit, well he was just over matched. He stood so far off the plate, so scared of being hit in the head again. He chases every friggin pitch, if its near the plate he is hacking. His performance at the homerun contest was the reason I still like the guy personally. The guy generally cares and loves the fans, he always looks to be giving it his all, and nowadays with these players that makes him stand out.
I think he'll do very well in camden yards, hitters park, weaker pitching in the AL (i think..) From what I read the cubs are going to pay most of his salary. Seems like a crap trade from them, trade a run producer (going into free agency=should be a good year), and pay him to play somewhere else so he is out of dusty's hair. Never been a dusty fan. over works his pitchers and imo is very overrated as a manager.
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Old 01-29-2005, 05:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've really liked Sammy since he was in the thick of the great homerun race of 98(?) with Mark McGwire. It's a damn shame to see him leave, not so much because I was a big Cubs fan or anything, but at this stage in his career and with the team he's going to, he looks like another great that's going to end his career without a ring. This definitely is a good move for the Cubbies, though. They had to shake things up after last year and the heartbreak of being inches from tasting the World Series a couple years ago.
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Old 01-29-2005, 05:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Sammy's been my favorite player ever since he first came to the Cubs. I'm saddened and dissapointed that it came to him being traded on these terms but his head has become inflated, while his game has downsized. As far as just getting rid of him I say good riddance. He hits .250 and strikes out 200 times a year, you can have him Baltimore.

Hairstons not great but he's another piece to the puzzle. The cubs hit the most homers last year proving that power isnt everything, they just need to stop striking out, get on base and hopefully be able to score more consistently this year. Sammy didn't help in the games that mattered.
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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sammy said something to the effect that he should bat clean up cause of past performace......not cause its best for the team as its not....but cause he wants to .....thats not a team player is a fucking cancer and this cubs fan is glad to see him gone
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Supposedly the trade is Sosa for Jerry Hairston, Mike Fontenot, and Dave Crouthers. The Cubs pick up $10M of the $17M Sosa gets this year, and Sosa will negotiate an extention with the Orioles to get him to waive completely the automatic option that would kick in since he's traded.

Hairston is a great second baseman (and personally one of my favorite players), but hasn't been healthy and lost his job to Brian Roberts. Fontenot would be our 2B of the future, if not for Hairston and Roberts. Crouthers is a decent pitching prospect.

Basically, this is a HELL of a deal for the Orioles. We give up essentially organizational depth for Sosa, who will hit between Miguel Tejada and Javy Lopez, and thrive in Camden Yards.

By the way, Mikey, I'll take the Orioles' lineup against the Yankees' lineup anytime this year.
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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By the way, Mikey, I'll take the Orioles' lineup against the Yankees' lineup anytime this year.
Yeah, but if it's the Orioles lineup facing Yankee Pitching against the Yankee lineup facing Oriole pitching, the Yanks are gonna come out on top most of the time. No bias here either as I completely loathe the Yankees and Mr. Steinbrenner
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Old 01-30-2005, 08:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Unless Sosas' been practicing his changeup over the winter, I don't see him making a significant difference in the Orioles won loss record this year. They scored plenty of runs last year, they just gave up way too many more. I would have preferred they concentrate on some decent established pitching but maybe a couple of their young arms will finally come around.
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crewsor
Unless Sosas' been practicing his changeup over the winter, I don't see him making a significant difference in the Orioles won loss record this year. They scored plenty of runs last year, they just gave up way too many more. I would have preferred they concentrate on some decent established pitching but maybe a couple of their young arms will finally come around.
Actually, they scored something like 850 runs and gave up something like 820. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was close.

Don't count out the Orioles' pitching. They had a team ERA a full run better in the second half then the first, and are still young, which means improvement as they grow.
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Old 01-30-2005, 10:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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As a die-hard Cub fan, I hate to see the Sammy Sosa-era end this way, but it was absolutely necessary for the best interests of the team. The only way the Cubs get Maggs is if he agrees to a one or two year deal. He is not going to get a four or five year deal in Chicago. Jeromy Burnitz is the more likely option in RF.
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Old 01-30-2005, 12:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I wonder if Sosa even plays right field. He's been a liability with his glove for alot of years. I wonder if he'll just sit in the wings of the AL and DH till interleague games come around. Then maybe he might play right field, provided he's hitting better then .250 and not striking out 1/3rd of his at bats.

I personally am very excited to have him out of Chicago. A little dissapointed as Sammy's upside isn't matched by many in baseball, however, he still strikes out alot, even when he's jacking 60 a year. Maggs hasen't signed anywhere else yet, which leads me to believe he's asking for more then he's going to get, prime example, Nomar. I think a 1 or 2 year deal is somthing he may have to settle with. I woulden't mind Burnitz either.
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Old 01-31-2005, 07:41 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I am a big Cubs fan and I was sad to see Sammy go, but I think it will turn out for the best. Sammy did not do that great last season so will be nice to see some young blood.
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Old 01-31-2005, 09:24 AM   #18 (permalink)
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it was time for sammy to go. He should have been gone before now. Of course I'm a Sox fan so it does kind of suck to see him in the AL east considering they O's always play us pretty tough. It'll be interesting to see how Sammy responds and the type of response he gets from Balitmore.
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:28 AM   #19 (permalink)
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The Cubs are so stupid, I can't believe they did this.

These are the minor league players the Cubs got back:
Fontenot: 24yrs old, light hitting 2B. Three years in minors: .288/.358/.420 Rotoworld actually put him as their 8th best prospect but also stated that he wouldn't show up on most scouts' lists since he doesn't have power or great plate disipline.

Crouthers: 24 yrs old, RHP, played in AA last season. Descent K/BB and K/9, he gave up a lot of HR last season. Nothing special.

Jerry Hairston is not great. Outside of 2004, he's never had a high OBP. He's only been a regular starter in two years and he has ZERO power. His .775 OPS is not great for a career year.

Forget the crap about Sosa's worst back to back years and look at his numbers:
2003 - .279/.358/.553/.911, 40HR, 143/62 K/BB
2004 - .253/.332/.517/.849, 35HR, 133/66 K/BB
2005 projected ZIPS - .255/.346/.518, 37HR
He still has the slugging and he is at least league average in OBP. Does that make him worth $17M? No, but that is irrelevant because he's under contract. I definitely don't see how he was so terrible that they should have paid $10M to get rid of him and get little in return.
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Old 02-01-2005, 03:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
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lol, the deal gets worse for the Cubs. I guess, they aren't putting in $10M of this years salary. ESPN says that they are putting in about $8M PLUS all of the $4.5M buyout on his 2006 option!!!

To add insult to injury:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1980524

Quote:
Meanwhile, the Cubs neared an agreement Monday night with Burnitz on a one-year contract with a mutual option for 2006, The Associated Press reported. That deal wouldn't be finalized until the Sosa trade is completed.

Burnitz hit 37 homers and drove in 110 runs for the Colorado Rockies last season. Sosa hit .253 last year, his lowest average since 1997, and had 35 homers and 80 RBIs in 126 games.
Ahem, COORS FREAKING FIELD NUMBERS!!!!

Look at Burnitz's home/road splits last year:
.244/.327/.448, 13HR
.322/.386/.670, 24 HR

I'll let you guess which one is which. Which version will show up in Wrigley in 2005? *obvious*

I'm so glad the DBacks didn't sign Burnitz. Burnitz is so great, he was able to hit 19 HR in a year that he posted a SLG of .365.
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Kutulu, I think you've failed to understand WHY Sammy is gone. It's not about numbers, or who, or what. It's about, SAMMY. They want him out. It was fine when the Cubs were losing, but since the cork, the leaving the game, the teammates calling him out, to the public criticizim of Dusty Baker (Which I agree with Sosa, believe it or not) - but now, coming to the ballpark and watching Sammy hit jacks isn't what every Cub fan wants. Sammy doesn't deal well with that. He's 36, and they deferred SOME of the salary.

Get past the numbers, and see what the trade is really about. The Cubs feel Sosa attitude is a "cancer" to the team, I'd agree. I also thought the fact he said he was "singled out" and he deserved to not be moved in the lineup because of his past, was very selfish. As was the blatent lying to Dusty and the rest of the Cubs.

The Cubs, in retrospect may have given up a re-dedicated, re-juvinated Sosa, but thats the chance they took. I think it's one of the best offseason moves the Cubs could make. I'm also not sure this deal wasen't in place or being talked before Beltran signed either. The Sun-times reported earlier this year of the Cubs contacting the Dodgers, and the Orioles to try and get Sammy gone to make a run at Beltran. I think the Cubs settled for this, and I'm just fine with it.

Anyway you look at it, this benefits the Cubs. Numbers mean absolutley jack when it comes to the reasoning of why they traded Sosa.

Last edited by Kurant; 02-01-2005 at 05:09 PM..
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Old 02-01-2005, 07:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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One thing that should be said is that from what has been reported here in Baltimore Miguel Tejada was the major lobby for Sosa. Considering this team has become Tejada's team, that tells a lot in my mind.
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Old 02-02-2005, 09:15 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I don't buy the 'clubhouse chemistry' lines. Here's the thing: winning creates chemistry and losers use chemistry as an excuse. For proof, look at two recent World Series Champs: the 2001 DBacks and the 2004 Red Sox.

The DBacks had Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Eruiel Durazo, Mark Grace, and Matt Williams. In 2001, we never heard jack about egos and who were cancers. However, starting in 2002, we start hearing about how Durazo is a 'me' guy who doesn't help the team. Grace has a history of problems with the Cubs (the DBacks always put him on a pedestal), Matt Williams was run out of the team with the media ripping him up, Schilling is well known, and this off-season all you heard about was how miserable Randy made the rest of the team.

The 2004 Red Sox had Curt, Manny, and Pedro. Manny and Pedro need to introductions on their assholish ways.

To sum up the Cubs' demise, I'll quote a fan from another message board:

Quote:
the sad thing is that, if the cubs would give jason dubois the same number of at bats in rf that they are bound to give burntiz now, dubois would give them higher obp and as many homers, if not more, as burnitz--and he'll cost them only $300k. this is a signing that reeks of desperation, to fool everyone (the fans, dusty, hendry) that the cubbies know what the hell they are doing.

the cubbies, for the amount of pure talent that they have had on that team over the last couple of years, should've been the two time defending champs right now. instead, they're the two times chokers. a lot of that has to do, imo, with the fact that baker is a crappy manager who a) destroys the young pitchers; b) can't rule in his clubhouse; and c) can't maximize a lineup to save his life.

in 2003, he rode prior and wood so hard that they both succumbed to injuries in 04. in 04, he rode zambrano and clement just as hard. i fully expect both of them to be coming down with injuries this year. in 03, he killed borowski. last year, he killed hawkins (yes, hawkins owners, sell high). at least wood and prior missed enough time last year that they might actually be healthy this coming year.

but the cubbies will suck anyhow; stl is going to run them into the ground again.
That totally sums up my feelings on the Cubs. Blame Dusty. If you don't believe it that Dusty ruins pitchers look at the Giants after he left.
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Old 02-02-2005, 01:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Glad he went ot BAL. The longer he stayed on the block, the more likely that Minaya woulda traded for him
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Old 02-02-2005, 04:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Kutulu- Grace was NEVER a problem in Chicago. Quite the opposite. And the Cubs did win last year. With a little over a week to go, they were in the lead for the Wild Card. Yet Sammy caused plenty of drama in the clubhouse, as did some others who are no longer around. And you quote somebody posting about Dubois who doesn't know much about the Cubs. He will still get his opportunity to win a starting job in the Cubs outfield this year even after the Burnitz signing. Remember, the Cubbies are filling 2 outfield positions. I will agree that Dusty is not as good as a lot of people think he is, but a lot of people posting about the Cubs situation on here are completely clueless.
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Old 02-03-2005, 08:32 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I've heard plenty on Cubs message boards about Grace causing problems before he left. The basic charge against him was that he was Mr. Perfect with the cameras on and off camera he was the usual 'clubhouse source' of dirt. That was a common feeling among the AZ and Cubs fans that didn't like him.
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I have been waiting for this day for years. Ever since he signed his first big contract I have wanted him gone. You canít win championships with players like Sosa. In fact, how many power hitters have actually won titles? This is what drove me nuts about Sammyís game over the years. Orioleís fans see if you agree with me about this after watching him this year.

- Has poor defensive fundamentals (DH in BAL?)
- Will not give himself up at the plate
- Will not shorten his swing with 2 strikes (like most power hitters=Kís)
- Not a clutch hitter (he could have been if he ever wanted to)
- Tries to pull every pitch (this is the single biggest reason to me that Sammy became and elite hitter. When he learned to drive the ball to right field he became a star. Not only did the HRís go up, but so did the 1Bís and 2Bís. Since he was hit in the head, it appears that he has reverted back to his ways of waving at the outside pitch.)

It is a shame that I have wanted a player who will probably be a first ballot hall-of-famer off my team, but Sammy only loves himself and that is what I have always hated about him.

Iím not really a big fan of Burnitz, but Hendry has a plan and I will go with him on this one. Magglioís knee is too much of a question to give him $ he wants. I was really hoping the rumors about Huff were true. He was the one I really wanted. We still need help in the bullpen. Hopefully we arenít done yet.

Also, Grace was known to form cliques in the clubhouse.
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:10 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't want to sound like a Sammy fan. I'm not at all. I do have two issues with your post jubu:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobu

- Will not give himself up at the plate
- Not a clutch hitter (he could have been if he ever wanted to)
First of all, what exactly do you mean by giving himself up at the plate. Are you talking about the sac fly or the bunt? We can debate the overall futility of bunting if you want in a seperate thread but I'm pretty sure you don't mean that you'd like to see Sammy lay down a bunt every now and then because that's just silly. As far as sac flys go, it's a worthless statistic where a player is rewarded with failure. The sample size over the course of one year is meaningless. If it fits the situation, great give up a run for an out but it isn't a common occurance (example: Sosa had only 19AB in 2004 with a man on 3rd, less than two out).

As to him not being a clutch player, there is no such thing as a "clutch player". It's a myth perpetuated by those who want to prop up less talented players. There's all sorts of split stats people use to evaulate the 'clutchness' of a player and they are all crap. The sample sizes are small and you need several years of data in order to get the equivalent of a full season of AB's in those situations. By that time, most players' numbers in those situations converge to career averages. There are outliers of course, but they are not common.
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:11 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
As to him not being a clutch player, there is no such thing as a "clutch player". It's a myth perpetuated by those who want to prop up less talented players. There's all sorts of split stats people use to evaulate the 'clutchness' of a player and they are all crap. The sample sizes are small and you need several years of data in order to get the equivalent of a full season of AB's in those situations. By that time, most players' numbers in those situations converge to career averages. There are outliers of course, but they are not common.
Statistically, your argument makes good sense. However, 'clutch play' is not really something that should be measured by statistics. I suppose your entire argument is based on that fact though, that when measured, a "clutch player" really doesnít exist. However, you say yourself that "most players' numbers in those situations converge to career averages. There are outliers of course, but they are not common". That statement acknowledges that there are outliers, so it really isnít a myth right? Maybe overemphasized instead? Crunch the numbers and maybe a clutch player doesn't exist, but I want Derek Jeter at bat when the money is on the line. Don't give my Gary Sheffield though; I don't think he will convert.

In addition, clutch hitting could be viewed as putting the ball in play, extending the at bat. These things have an affect on the result, and I think they are characteristics of a "clutch player". In basketball, you can look at a playerís field goal percentage and free throws made in the final couple of minutes to see how much of a clutch player he is, but that is not a commonly accepted stat. As a fan you just know who is clutch, you know who makes big shots, and who you want to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game. Kobe Bryant shoots a lot in the 4th quarter, especially when his team is coming from behind. He obviously misses a lot too, and comes up short often. I believe statistically he doesn't rank as a clutch player according to a stat I vaguely recall from ESPN's NBA Fastbreak earlier this year. However, if I could choose one player to have down the stretch of a game, I would pick him. I have seen him do it time and time again. Regardless of what the stats say, thatís who I would want.
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Just because there are outliers does not make it significant.

I don't understand the Sheff bashing. He was the MOST productive starter on the Yankees roster last year. Jeter, on the other hand was the 2nd LEAST productive starter (those with at least 3.1 PA/game) on the team.

Edit - I stand corrected. Matsui was the most productive Yankee. Sheff was second.

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Old 02-04-2005, 09:51 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
Just because there are outliers does not make it significant.

I don't understand the Sheff bashing. He was the MOST productive starter on the Yankees roster last year. Jeter, on the other hand was the 2nd LEAST productive starter (those with at least 3.1 PA/game) on the team.

Edit - I stand corrected. Matsui was the most productive Yankee. Sheff was second.
I didn't say significant, I said it wasn't a myth. I suggested maybe overemphasized, but not a myth.

Sheff bashing? I donít think so; I just gave an honest opinion on what I think about his ability to produce in the right situation.

In his career, Shef's career post-season numbers are a .258 AVG, .445 SLG, and .435 OBP.

Jeter's career post-season numbers are .306 AVG, .456 SLG, .380 OBP. Besides OBP, Jeter has been a better player in his post-season career. Yet Sheffield has always been known as the better offensive player throughout his career. Sheff may have been a more productive player last year, but as I said, when the money is on the line (Playoffs) I want Jeter.
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:05 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
I don't want to sound like a Sammy fan. I'm not at all. I do have two issues with your post jubu:



First of all, what exactly do you mean by giving himself up at the plate. Are you talking about the sac fly or the bunt? We can debate the overall futility of bunting if you want in a seperate thread but I'm pretty sure you don't mean that you'd like to see Sammy lay down a bunt every now and then because that's just silly. As far as sac flys go, it's a worthless statistic where a player is rewarded with failure. The sample size over the course of one year is meaningless. If it fits the situation, great give up a run for an out but it isn't a common occurance (example: Sosa had only 19AB in 2004 with a man on 3rd, less than two out).

As to him not being a clutch player, there is no such thing as a "clutch player". It's a myth perpetuated by those who want to prop up less talented players. There's all sorts of split stats people use to evaulate the 'clutchness' of a player and they are all crap. The sample sizes are small and you need several years of data in order to get the equivalent of a full season of AB's in those situations. By that time, most players' numbers in those situations converge to career averages. There are outliers of course, but they are not common.

I was not suggesting that Sammy bunt. Although that would be something to see. I bet he hasnít even attempted one in at least 10 years. I was thinking more timely hitting. What I mean by that is hits near the end of the game. Hits with runners in scoring position. Hits with two outs. Making contact instead of striking out. Instead, Sammy has to swing for the fences. If there was a situation where the Cubís only needed one run with a runner in scoring position, Sammy would be up at the plate trying to hit it out. How many times does he strike out in key situations? Sammy is not the person I want up to bat when the game is on the line. I also think there are intangibles that make a player clutch. Statistically speaking there are other players that are a lot better than Jeter. But why is it that he always seems to be in the right place at the right time? In baseball itís about understanding the situation and putting yourself in the best possible position to succeed. Sammy just isnít that type of player.
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