Formula One (the F1 thread)

[Craven Morehead]

BAR will not appeal. They must feel they don't have a shot at it. Also they estimate they will lose $19 million for the suspension.

[superiorrain]

That's a shit load of cash, they must be gutted.

But on a happier note it's race weekend and if it's anything like last weekend then it should be excellent. The only thing we're missing are the big crashes, but who knows what race day will bring. Have to say my money is going on michael this weekend, his sheer pace race would have been unbeatable had he started in the top 5 of the grid.

What are your thoughts Craven?

[Craven Morehead]

I'd love to see Alonso win at home. Would be spectacular. Other than that I just want a good race. And a safe one. Will be interesting to see how Montoya does. He's got to be sore from his 'tennis' accident and then he totally trashed the McLaren on Friday. Rubens also had to change an engine. Watch that red car eat up the field. Should be a good race.

BTW - here's Speed TV's explanation of what BAR did. Good video w/ Steve Matchett.

And here's BAR's submission to the FIA. All 103 pages!

[ARTelevision]

Hi. Just stopping by from over at the NASCAR thread.

I do appreciate the great F1 cars and drivers and catch the races when possible. I just don't know F1 and international racing as well as I do the US racing circuits.

But I admire the engineering and the sharp look of F1 cars. They're the ultimate in racing in many ways.

As I get a bit more familiar with what's going on with Formula One, I'll stop in a bit more here.

Thanks for the good thread.

[superiorrain]

^ Please join us, and enjoy the various sights of the world as F1 travels across the globe. Though don't base you're F1 opinions on todays race, i thought it was a bit dull but guess after the last race it was to be expected.

I still think the race was the worse for not having BAR there (thanks for the vid link). Still waiting for michael to do something, can't believe he had two wheel failures, worse luck (this tyre changing rule should be scrapped, i like watching the wheels being changed). I only want him to win to keep it tight up at the top.

Must admit that i am looking forward to Monte-Carlo in two weeks. It is always the best race of the season.

[Craven Morehead]

I would love to go to Monte Carlo. Can't afford it but I can dream. This year's race will be decidedly different since Price Ranier has died recently. Am looking forward to the USGP, haven't missed one yet. The track layout is nothing special but being in the presence of these machines is quite an experience. If you only hear them on TV, you're in for quite a surprise when you hear them live.

[aKula]

I live in Melbourne and when the F1 race is on I can hear the cars from over 4 kilometres away.

[Daval]

Unfortunately I missed the Spanish GP, I had set my TiVo to record it as usual and for some reason it didnt I couldnt find a replay of it later in the day either.

Concerning the new rules, I am actually quite pleased to see the mixxed up field. Although I will heartily admit that Michael is probably the most talented and dominating driver of the generation and I will probably tell my grandchildren that I saw each of his world championships, I do prefer to see a mixxed up world championship.

I do like the aggregate qualifying better than the 1 lap wonder of that last year or two, more chaos can and will happen if conditions change. If they could find a happy medium of the aggregate times and the excitiment in that last 10 minutes of qualifying of old it would be a lot of fun to watch.

I'm perfectly fine with a engine lasting for two races, I would consider 1 tire change in the race at least though, going from 3 to 4 sets of tires per race down to 1 is quite a harsh change, let them change it once maximum.

Otherwise its been a good year, and its great to see McLaren back in the hunt, I've always been a big McLaren fan.


BTW, that page with the vids is great, I've bookmarked it.

[Daval]

Originally Posted by aKula

I live in Melbourne and when the F1 race is on I can hear the cars from over 4 kilometres away.

I'm personally in Toronto, Canada, but my Aunt lives in a small village about 1 mile from Brackley where BAR, Jordan and other teams are located. Its about 5 miles from Silverstone Speedway and she can hear the cars as well.

I've not been to visit yet to go see a race, but I may do the trip next year with a few mates.

[powerclown]

My favorite is also Monte Carlo, along with Spa and Montreal. Suzuka and Imola are also favorites. The new generation tracks (China, Bahrain, Indy, et al) are not so interesting in themselves, but it is interesting to see the brand new, high tech facilities at these modern tracks. The start/finish line structure and covered seating at the China track are quite impressive.

Qualifying is ok, but I prefer the low tanks, special qualifying engines, 3 lap tires, flat-out style. It's annoying how the rules change ever year. First it was V12s, then V10s, now I hear they are considering V8s. Maybe soon, inline four bangers lol. They don't know whether to speed up the cars, or slow them down, to have more interesting racing. I do like watching every car qualify, where before they would only televise the top guys.

I am/was(??) expecting a huge season for Fisichella in the Renault this year. He seems to have run into problems after winning in australia. I always thought he had great potential in a good car...

[powerclown]

2 particularly enjoyable scenes from the last race:





I love it when 7x champions get flat tires.

[superiorrain]

^ nice pics. Quite funny that two tyres went.

I'm still liking old qualifying the manic few minutes at the end. Even if the first 50 minutes was of little interest.

I agree with Daval, allowing one tyre change would be an excellent idea and i'm sure schumi would agree.

[aKula]

I'm all for tyre changes, it makes the race more interesting. It allows for more strategy and watching the pit stops with tyre changes is always exciting.

[superiorrain]

At last they're axing qualifying on Sunday morning in favour of a single session on Saturday.

I miss qualifying today so won't be making any predictions on who will win, though i will say i think coulthard will do well.

[superiorrain]

The FIA are asking the fans opinions on the future of F1 and you can take the survey online. So hopefully next season will be better structured and they will stick with more of the rules.

survey link

[Serpent]

and as with everything the FIA gets their hands on, it doesn't work..

[Craven Morehead]

Saw some of today's action. Schumacher the Lesser really had a big one. Tore the right side off. Juan Pablo is sent to the back of the pack for brake checking in practice causing a multi-car pile up. Jacques out qualifies Scuderia Ferrari???? WOW!!!

[Craven Morehead]

This thread needs revived. Monaco, great race. Nurburgring, great race. Kimi probably disagrees though. LOL

Webber needs to quit screwing up in races. Or Jensen will have his seat next year.

[Pacifier]

Yes, it was a cool race at Nürburgring but Ron Dennis has to stop whining and complaining about the Rules. It would have been perfectly legal for them to change Kimis tyre since it was clearly damaged:

"74) Quantity and type of tyres
[..] Unless a precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race."

[Craven Morehead]

Just read that Montoya also had a flat spot as well as missing body parts from when Webber clouted him at T1. You're right about Dennis, he could have changed the tire in question and the FIA would have been fine with it. Might not have won but at least they would have gotten points.

[Rippley]

I doubt Kimi would have been allowed to change the tire un-punished. I read an article (that of course I can't find), where Kimi states that he made the decision. He would basically have thrown the race, had he pitted and changed the tires. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. That's racing. That said, I disagree with the new tire regs. Rather have a bhp limit on the engines or some such. The Pit strategy/tire changes is such a crucial part of the sport. To me, far more crucial than building engines with marginally more power.

I'm somewhat surprised this season by the incredibly poor form being shown by Schumi. Alonso be rocking the circuits, though! Awesome to see some real competiion this season. And way to go Alonso keeping Schumi behind him a few weeks ago. Talk about icewater in his veins!!

Hadn't noticed this thread before. Excellent initiative! Can't wait to rant after the next race

[archer2371]

I am just shocked as to what happened today. The pigheadedness shown by the FIA and Bernie Ecclestone is completely uncalled for. I am at a loss for words. However, I must say that if it's found out that Toyota screwed it up for everyone because they were running tire pressures too low, then I have a feeling that the wrath of God will be brought down upon them. This one set of tires per race rule has got to go, it's totally ridiculous and I knew that it would cause problems from day one, I just didn't envision something like this. I thought that the tire issue would cause someone to be hurt, not cause 14 of the 20 cars to pull out of the race. Idiotic. Completely idiotic. I'm glad I didn't go this year.

[sbscout]

If Formula One wants to play games, I can find something else to do with my Sunday afternoons... NASCAR, old movies, mowing the lawn...

They've gotten the last of my money.

[superiorrain]

Finally i'm back to the board and have time to write a message, now to the last 2 races which i'm yet to comment on, bloody excellent.

I have little to say about todays race, i'm shocked that the problems were not resolved and it had to come to a little more than a country drive in the summer. What we saw today was not racing and proof if it was needed of how much in politics F1 has in it today.

I feel sorry for the people that went to see the race, the drivers and for formula one in america. Surely this will not aid the sports progress in the one market it needs to break to ensure even greater success. The question remains, will there be a race in america next year or was that it? I'll be honest and say i'm not a fan of the US gran prix at least in indie, i would have liked a brand new track or a city track - Vagas style. But for it to be the end of a american GP is not a good thing but i fear it may well be.

Someone please tell me who to blame, i'm tending towards the FIA, more power than sense.

Also should the other guys have raced? i'm split on this to, what a day for racing. I'm looking forwards to the fall out of this now, should be interesting.

[archer2371]

Personally, I think Toyota fucked it up and since the other teams were finding problems (that they said were different and fixable) with their Michelin's which means Michelin investigated and got scared about the quality of their tyres. Therefore they couldn't guarantee their safety. My question is, why wait until Saturday to even think about maybe replacing them? Then Michelin brings in a new batch of tyres that they can guarantee the safety of. However, because the FIA is a giant cluster fuck, they won't budge on a goddamn thing and they only hurt themselves. If it is found out that Toyota had the tyre pressures unreasonably low and that caused them to have failures, then I hope to God they get banned. I think this will be the death of F1 in America, and I'm sad to see it, especially on a weekend where Scott Speed made his debut. I can't express in words how fucking angry I am. This is bullshit, and it needs to stop and the fans need to get their money back.

[powerclown]

And ShoeMaker gets 10 points for this nonsense? That is a joke. He's now 3 points behind Raikkonen for second place in the standings. I don't know much about what exactly happened today, but the FIA has been taking F1 down the wrong road for years. Has it been brought up that Ferarri is behind this in any way?

[archer2371]

Unless you can prove that Jean Todt went down Gasoline Alley and sabotaged all of the Michelin tyres, I think that's a really ignorant statement. For lack of a better word, it was a "race" it was sanctioned by the FIA and Bridgestone didn't have any problems, so they shouldn't have been penalized for Michelin fucking up. I blame both the FIA and Michelin, more so Michelin because they didn't bring the proper equipment. These guys could have run slower lap times, Barrichello had to retire at Malaysia because of tyre failure. But oh! That's just Ferrari, they deserve bad shit to happen to them because they're evil and run the world./sarcasm. It's on Michelin because they didn't bring the proper equipment and Bridgestone who had their shit together shouldn't be penalised.

[powerclown]

I was just asking...I said I didn't know the specifics, and wasn't blaming anyone. I could give a shit in all honesty, as the racing in F1 for the last few years has been terrible, and I really don't care who wins or loses, besides Sato. I hope Sato runs over Alonso's foot in the pitlane and takes the title.

But you never know with ShoeMaker...he would do ANYTHING to win an 8th Championship, don't you think?

[Craven Morehead]

Its Michelin's fault entirely. The oval track was resurfaced over the past year. In April there was an aborted Firestone (owned by Bridgestone) tire test. Aborted as the track was much to abrasive as well as other issues related to the repaving. The entire track was diamond ground to give it a perfectly level surface. I would assume the Bridgestone was tipped off my Firestone, hence their tires were OK.

BTW - I was there, stayed through to the end. A sad day for motorsports. Also sad to see so called fans throwing beer bottles and cans onto the track. Very low class.

The reprecussions of this will last for years. Peter Windsor insinuated it was as much political as anything. A result of the break away series. The only team to support F1 as is, is Ferrari. Ironcially, the other teams are all controlled by the engine manufacturers supporting the breakaway series are all on Michelins.

[Spendrups]

As explained in our earlier letter, your teams have a choice of running more slowly in Turn 12/13, running a tyre not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tyre (subject to valid safety reasons).

It is for them to decide. We have nothing to add.

Michelin had 3 alternative to get the race underway, but chosed to blackmail FIA to change the layout of the circuit. Very bad move

US GP ruined by France

[healer]

I feel sorry for the fans - I truly do. They did nothing wrong. But neither did the guys at Bridgestone, nor the teams using their tyres. Now they're being persecuted as if they sold out the sport and the fans and all that other bullshit.

[superiorrain]

Originally Posted by Craven Morehead

BTW - I was there, stayed through to the end. A sad day for motorsports. Also sad to see so called fans throwing beer bottles and cans onto the track. Very low class.

First, sorry to hear that you were there, i would have been so angry. What i want to know is, did you get your money back? will you get your money back? and i'm guessing the first you knew that there wouldn't be a 'race' was when all the teams pulled into the pits, what the hell did you think was going on? I know i would have been totally confused by it all.

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by Craven Morehead

Its Michelin's fault entirely. The oval track was resurfaced over the past year. In April there was an aborted Firestone (owned by Bridgestone) tire test. Aborted as the track was much to abrasive as well as other issues related to the repaving. The entire track was diamond ground to give it a perfectly level surface. I would assume the Bridgestone was tipped off my Firestone, hence their tires were OK.

I agree...95% Michelin's fault for bringing the faulty tires. The other 5% to the FIA for not putting in a damn chicane and having everyone race. But, they shouldn't of had to modify the track at all if Michelin hadn't of screwed up. OK, 98% Michelin's fault.

The Michelin runners completed a curtailed practice programme as they battled to adjust to new set-ups, designed to protect tyres on the notoriously tough Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

A Michelin statement read: "We have explained the situation to our partners and to the FIA and we have advised on the conditions for test, qualifying and for the race. These decisions have been taken in the interest of safety of the drivers."

"We've been working with our people in Clermont-Ferrand in order to identify a product that we know is capable of running at Indianapolis and we are in the process of discussing this possibility with the FIA and are actively pursuing the dispatch of these tyres to Indianapolis."

"In order to identify a product we know is capable of running at Indianapolis..."

Doh! Maybe those products should have made the trip across the Atlantic in the first place?

Two BAR mechanics were assaulted by angry spectators when they went to retrieve their van from the car park, forcing the team to send someone out to buy 60 USGP t-shirts so that the rest of the crew could move around incognito.

What a mess.

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by Craven Morehead

Peter Windsor insinuated it was as much political as anything. A result of the break away series. The only team to support F1 as is, is Ferrari. Ironcially, the other teams are all controlled by the engine manufacturers supporting the breakaway series are all on Michelins.

CM, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about this...

Why political? What breakaway series are you referring to?

[Spendrups]

Originally Posted by powerclown

CM, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about this...

Why political? What breakaway series are you referring to?

The GPWC (Grand Prix World Chamionship)

there are the carmanufactors are mostly threathing Bernie Ecclestones company that have the commercial rights to F1, and the carmanufactor teams like mercedes, renault, bmw(so basicly all teams execpt ferrari, that have broken out of GPWC and signed with FIA when the other teams walked behind Ferraris back in last year in brazil) and so on whant more money from Bernie, and ofcourse he dosent whant to give away money... so therefor they almost blackmailing bernie and say that they are not in F1 if they dont get more money.

here you can read a little more
http://www.motorsm.com/motorsport/auto/F1/GPWC.asp

[Craven Morehead]

Here are some of Peter Windsor's comments from his appearance on WindTunnel last night. WT is a racing program on Speed TV.

Taken from a pay site I am registered on.

06/20/05


Wind Tunnel quotes F1 USGP Below are select quotes from SPEED Channel Formula One analyst Peter Windsor from a Sunday night appearance on 'Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain.' Windsor comments on the Formula One debacle, where Michelin teams refused to race at the USGP, citing safety issues for its drivers, leaving the lone F1 event in the U.S. with a six-car field.

Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain airs Sunday nights at 9 on SPEED Channel.

WINDSOR: "I think this business about the Michelin tires being unsafe to race has been exaggerated by the teams and, indeed, by Michelin, because as far as I understand it, they were only considered to be unsafe, by Michelin, on one very specific corner. And talking to a lot of the drivers, there were ways of getting around that corner, reducing the amount of load that was going through it - obviously we are talking about Turn 13, the vertical load. So, I think first of all, we need to be very careful about "the tires were unsafe." I think they were unsafe, but unsafe when used in a specific way. Beyond that, I am as shattered as anyone else. I love Formula One. I've been involved for 30 years and to see that happen on the warm-up lap, the formation lap, all those cars coming in like that, I think it was an absolute disgrace. To be honest, our obligation in this sport, or any sport is to the fans and for that to happen is just appalling."

"I think the Michelin was naïve in thinking that there would be a solution that falls outside the framework of the Formula One regulations ... because they suggested a chicane that makes cars go slower through Turn 13, but that was never going to happen in a million years. The FIA, the governing body of the sport - this is the governing body that disqualifies cars for having a brake duct half a millimeter too large - they are never going to put in a chicane in on race morning, around which the cars are not allowed to practice or do anything at all ... equally, there was talk about using another batch of tires, but that was never going to happen either."

"Tell me where the difference is in what happened today and what might happen at any Grand Prix where there is a sudden downpour and one tire company, on intermediate tires, with no grip at all, everybody spins off on the straight and there is only five cars left in the race. That's happened before and everyone thinks 'Wow, what a great race.' They should have been out there racing and if there are problems, you drive around the problems as best you can. Racers are racers."

"It's the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans ... not one of those Michelin team guys said 'We made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility. All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else, but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tire test to select the correct tire for Indianapolis? ... Two - Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson - everyone else was at Silverstone."

"One of the watersheds of today was that Bernie Ecclestone stared people in the eye, literally eyeball to eyeball before the race, and said you are going to get in that car and race - not to the drivers, but to the team owners ... and they stared him back. At the end of the day, in this particular situation, the eyeballing didn't work for Bernie. It's the first time I can remember it not working for him and there will be repercussions."

"F1 is about people getting out there and going motor racing. We race in the rain. We race in the wind. We race in the hail. We race in the hot weather. And we have tire failures and lots of other terrible things, but that's what Formula One is all about, for good and for bad."

[Craven Morehead]

Originally Posted by superiorrain

First, sorry to hear that you were there, i would have been so angry. What i want to know is, did you get your money back? will you get your money back? and i'm guessing the first you knew that there wouldn't be a 'race' was when all the teams pulled into the pits, what the hell did you think was going on? I know i would have been totally confused by it all.

No word on reimbursement for the tickets. I doubt it that will occur. The track would have to issue a refund and its doubtful that they would if they still must pay F1 a sanction fee. The track has as much expenses this weekend as they would have incurred had all 20 cars started the race.

What should happen is Michelin issuing credits to each ticket holder for the amount of the tickets applied to a new tire pruchase. Even then, I'm not sure I would ever buy a Michelin, Goodrich or Uniroyal product (all manufactured by Michelin). Fully one third of Michelin's sales comes from the US. The bad PR associated with this will be immeasurable.

Not the first time I had a race cancelled. I booked flights and hotel room in Las Vegas in 2003 so I could drive to the Fontana CART race from LV. The southern California fires caused the race to be cancelled. I was left 'stranded' in Las Vegas. I did get a full refund on those tickets, however I did spend a bunch on flights and hotels that I otherwise wouldn't have. On Sunday morning I was walking through the manufacturers compound with my brother and we both were pleasantly surprised by all the foreign fans in attendance, Asian, Indian, European and South American. Probably come Canadians also, but they blend in too well. Those were the people that got royally screwed by Michelin. I only had a 2.5 hour drive and spent the night with some friends close to the track. Not a total loss to me.

[powerclown]

Veeeery interesting...thanks for the links guys. It appears there is more here than meets the eye.

It is indeed very curious that Michelin only sent 2 drivers to test their tires for the conditions at Indy beforehand (I'm assuming they did these tests at Indy) So what conclusions did they come to from the tests? Did they know they weren't going to have the right compound for Indy? What I don't understand is why did teams participate in 4 full Practice sessions and a full Qualifying before deciding the tires were faulty. And what if Schumacher or Zonta were killed in their crashes because they had tires Michelin knew were faulty, based on prior testing? It's not entirely clear when Michelin knew the tires were bad - during testing before the race, after Practice, or after the crashes.

Peter Windsor makes some good points. But I disagree with his wet weather analogy. The rain is the rain, its an uncontrollable variable and you have the option to switch to perfectly functional wets. Drivers shouldn't be forced to race with faulty equipment.

As far as the Manufacturers vs. Eccelstone infighting, well, I think there is only one inevitable conclusion. The Manufacturers will end up running the show, as opposed to the smaller, less powerful, lower profile, one-off engineering companies such as Williams and McLaren who only manufacture Formula One chassis. It is after all car racing, so it seems logical that car makers should be in control. Yet, it took the creativity, showmanship and vision of Eccelstone to transform the series into what it is today, so he's not going to let go easily and maybe the manufacturers owe him something for providing them with such a huge international showcase for their brands.

As an aside, I ran into this:

In an effort to boost attendance, and give IRL founder Tony George a little jab, Champ Car announced late Sunday afternoon it would honor all U.S. Grand Prix tickets to this Sunday's Grand Prix of Cleveland

[Janey]

Originally Posted by Craven Morehead

Probably come Canadians also, but they blend in too well.

gosh! thanks

I was watching the race in confusion (around lap 49) and then with mounting indignation. What a load.

[Craven Morehead]

Originally Posted by powerclown

Veeeery interesting...thanks for the links guys. It appears there is more here than meets the eye.

It is indeed very curious that Michelin only sent 2 drivers to test their tires for the conditions at Indy beforehand (I'm assuming they did these tests at Indy)

It was at Barcelona. Go figure!