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Old 10-26-2008, 11:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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ammo size

Hey guys. So I'm finally trying to do something about getting my first handgun. Been wanting one for years. I want something I can carry concealed (or rather the option). Something that has fairly cheap ammo to have fun with on the range but bigger than a 22 for defense purposes. Suggestions are appreciated but my main reason for posting this is to understand the size differences. I'm hoping someone could do a quick chart of the common handgun ammunition sizes. I'm rather confused where say a 9mm glock falls compared to a 38. Especially why mm is used compared to .357 caliber... I've googled this but all the charts I've found don't really explain it well.

Thanks!

PS which is faster to reload/less of a hassle (thinking of target range practice here), a revolver or clip?
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Old 10-26-2008, 02:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Ok, here is a quick and dirty breakdown:

You have basically two things that matter with the caliber itself. First, is the size of the round, and second is how much 'oomph' it has.

These bullets are all the same diameter, but have been given different names because other aspects of the cartridges are different:
for auto loading pistols: 9mm Parabellum (normal 9mm round), 9mm makarov, .380 ACP and 38 super.
For revolvers: .38 Special and .357 Magnum

There are others, but these are the main ones. They all fire comprable bullets, but the shapes of the cartridges, as well as how much power they have are all different. For instance, there is very little difference between a .38 special and a .357 magnum. In fact you can safely fire .38 special rounds in a .357 revolver, and it is done quite commonly for practice as the ammunition is cheaper and has less recoil. This is because the original .38 Special cartridge was black powder, and thus needed a lot of volume in the cartridge to fit enough powder to produce moderate chamber pressures. Since the old guns that were designed for those original, low pressure cartridges are still around, manufacturers cannot safely boost the pressure through the roof to increase velocity without risking accidents. So the solution was to create a slightly different cartridge, the .357 which would only chamber in new manufactured pistols which could tolerate the higher pressures.

With the 9mm and the .380 Auto, they are basically the same round, but the .380 auto is more compact and less powerful, lending itself to use in smaller weapons.

Cal. and mm are used seemingly randomly in the gun world, though I believe it originally had to do with where the round was first put into production.

Typically, the most preferred handgun rounds for self defense are these: 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP for auto pistols, and for revolvers .357 Magnum is the gold standard.
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Last edited by Slims; 10-26-2008 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Most of this has been discussed at great length already.

Search feature'd!

...

First gun?

Take an introductory course. They often allow you to shoot both types of handgun.

Get yourself a S&W 686 (.357 Mag revolver) or a Springfield Armory XD (9mm auto) and train until you're comfortable.

...

IMHO: Unless you've got the stupid one-man-army syndrome many young white guys do... a vanilla 6-shot, 4" barrel .357 Mag revolver will be your one-gun choice for target shooting, self-defense and even deer hunting. It doesn't do especially well at any of the three, but unlike a more specialized gun (target plinker, subcompact pocket blaster, or hunting cannon) it'll do all three successfully.

If you'd like to learn about firearms in general... check out the URL "World.Guns.Ru"
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Last edited by Plan9; 10-26-2008 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks guys. Greg700 you were especially helpful. After thinking about what I really wanted it for, and largely because of price, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a 22 auto loader. Maybe a walther p22. Any suggestions?

Last edited by Zeraph; 10-27-2008 at 08:44 AM..
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
Thanks guys. Greg700 you were especially helpful. After thinking about what I really wanted it for, and largely because of price, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a 22 auto loader. Maybe a walther p22. Any suggestions?
Nothing 22 caliber is an effective self defense weapon. I'd stick with either 9mm, .357 revolver, .40 or .45 semi-auto.
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:52 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I wouldn't go less than .357/.380 ACP/9mm/etc if you plan on using it for self defense. [sarcasm]CO2 powered .177 caliber repeating pellet pistols are cheaper than .22 autoloaders, why not get one of those instead? Spring-powered BB guns are even cheaper![/sarcasm]

Seriously though, just because a caliber exists doesn't make it a viable self defense weapon.
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I guess I wasn't clear with "After thinking about what I really wanted it for" forgot to finish that thought. What I really want it for is *fun.* And I don't think I'll be shooting something anywhere near as much that costs 3 times more to shoot.

tec 22 looks fun, too bad it jams.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Parents have a Walther P22. Really fun range gun, and popular to silence too. It looks all 'james bond' when a can is attached.

I enjoy shooting it. Very minimal recoil, rapid fire actually results in shots on target (don't try it with a .40, lol). Ergonomics and trigger aren't bad. How much they go for...$350 about?

One gun to try in that range, should you ever want to is the Ruger LCP. Costs about $350, but packs a more powerful cartridge, the .380. I don't know if it's nearly as fun to shoot though, and ammo prices are going to be higher.

I think the cheapest factory non .22LR handgun ammunition you're going to find next up will be the 9mm Luger (9x19 i believe).

Let us know what you decide!
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
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You can't go wrong with a .22 for fun and to learn on.
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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1,000 rounds of 7.62x39: Expensive.
1,000 rounds of 5.56mm: More Expensive.
1,000 rounds of 7.62NATO: Really Gorram Expensive.
1,000 rounds of .30-06: Children. All of them. Now. And wife too!
1,000 rounds of .22LR: Lunch for your shooting buddies at Wendy's.

'Nuf Said.
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I have a Walther P22. I really love it at the range. And the ammo is super cheap, too.

I have also used it to kill raccoons.
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you're looking for strictly self defense, .380 is probably the smallest you really want to go. It still provides SOME oomph and isn't bulky to carry. If you're looking for good stopping power, some sub compacts work well like the Glock 27.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
1,000 rounds of .30-06: Children. All of them. Now. And wife too!
I don't get that one.

PS I liked that you included the use of "goram"
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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after posting a thread similar to this i think im going with a 686 P.

seriously man...do a search.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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after posting a thread similar to this i think im going with a 686 P.

seriously man...do a search.
Seriously man...read my post. I did a search. Several. I either didn't find your post or I didn't understand the way ammo was explained. So far Greg700s response is the first and only one that actually explained it to me in a way I could understand.
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
1,000 rounds of 7.62x39: Expensive.
1,000 rounds of 5.56mm: More Expensive.
1,000 rounds of 7.62NATO: Really Gorram Expensive.
1,000 rounds of .30-06: Children. All of them. Now. And wife too!
1,000 rounds of .22LR: Lunch for your shooting buddies at Wendy's.

'Nuf Said.
He should get that gun that's chambered in $5 bills haha.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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He should get that gun that's chambered in $5 bills haha.
I think factory .338 Lapua goes for around that. 20 for $100ish. Crazy.
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I think factory .338 Lapua goes for around that. 20 for $100ish. Crazy.
...don't forget anything chambered in .50 BMG. Requires a bank loan before you fill out the shipping info on the order form.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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One word: Weatherby.
One more: Lazzeroni.
$85-$150/box in a rifle that beats the living piss out of you.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Random musings that might help you as you go down the path of firearmsy goodness.....

In general it seems to be the consensus that for self defense, anything under .38 or .380 is too unreliable a man stopper- not that a .22 will not kill an attacker graveyard dead, it just takes a bit of time for em to bleed out, during which they will possibly kill you...

.380, at least in what I have shot it out of, kicks as much as 9mm, and has less power, and is half again more pricey to shoot- if it comes down to the two of em, get the 9mm

In keeping with this idea, if faced with purchasing a .357 or .38 remember the .357 will safely fire cheaper .38 for practice and still give you the option of something far more powerful if you need it..... the .38 lacks this advantage....

You seem to already know enough to look at the price of ammo, good on you, it matters little how cool the pistol is if you do not shoot it enough to be effective with it, at least from a defense standpoint- for a fun gun this is just as true....

remember that as holes in people go, the vaunted .40 sw is 10 mm in size, the uber killing and storied .45 is 11mm- and the moral is that what really matters is your ability to put rounds on target under stress.....


never buy a jennings lorcin or bryco- or a rg revolver- these are the absolute bottom rung and a functional weapon from them is the exception to the rule......
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:48 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks fire.

So what's a good price range for a *used* 22 caliber pistol? My cousin said somewhere between 150-200$

Also anyone have any thoughts on revolver vs auto loader for a 22? I'm leaning toward auto for capacity and slightly less recoil because I want to be able to get good (for fun) at firing very quickly, but accurately. I heard revolvers are better for single shot accuracy. That true?

Last edited by Zeraph; 11-02-2008 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
Thanks fire.

So what's a good price range for a *used* 22 caliber pistol? My cousin said somewhere between 150-200$

Also anyone have any thoughts on revolver vs auto loader for a 22? I'm leaning toward auto for capacity and slightly less recoil because I want to be able to get good (for fun) at firing very quickly, but accurately. I heard revolvers are better for single shot accuracy. That true?
Why buy used? A new .22 isn't much more. If you're on a budget, sites like Gunbroker.com will give you an idea of what you should expect at a gun shop or local redneck emporium. If you'd like some links to things that may fit your needs, PM me and I'll help.

The Walther P22 is a great starter gun. An auto isn't as reliable as or as safe as a revolver. Both S&W and Taurus make a bunch of .22 LR revolvers that are perfectly logically choices as first guns. They offer both full size and concealed carry size varieties. I'd recommend a full size gun as they are heavier and generally easier to learn on than some of today's tiny pocket blasters.

As noted in other threads, the big advantages of revolvers are perfect feeding regardless of ammo failure (primer pop or dud) or user failure (limp wrist) and the ability to leave them loaded indefinitely. Revolvers are generally safer as swinging out the cylinder both completely deactivates the gun and unloads it at the same time.

A revolver may be better for single shot accuracy simply because there are less moving parts involved (much in the way bolt action rifles are generally more accurate than autoloaders). This slight improvement in accuracy only comes from the hands of a trained shooter. Regardless of action type, if you're not steady and comfortable with the weapon... you won't know the difference.

Recoil? You're shooting a .22 LR. Recoil is (to your hand) similar to what you feel when breathing. Not an issue. Come back to this issue when you're thinking about .357 Mag in a gun that weighs ~20 ounces (which I think is foolish).

Capacity? Walther P22 holds 10+1 shots. Taurus revolvers hold 9 shots. Not an issue. Speed loaders are harder to find for .22s, but I know for a fact some joker online makes speedloaders for the 9 shot .22 LR revolvers. Autopistols load a lot faster than revolvers, but you'll never have to worry about losing mags or having mag issues (failure to seat, failure to feed, etc) with revolvers.

Frankly, I'd go with the revolver. You'll appreciate it more and experience less bullshit issues such as crappy mags and issues related to a recoil operated weapon. Revolvers aren't as "cool" as pistols, but they do the job of putting bullets on target more consistently.
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Last edited by Plan9; 11-02-2008 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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For a .22 pistol, I'd look for something along the lines of a Browning Buckmark or Ruger Mark III. Rugged, reliable, and very accurate out of the box. Plenty of aftermarket support for them as well if you want to play with them a little more seriously down the road.
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Thanks Crom. I'll probably go with the revolver then (I actually think they're cooler anyway).
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:30 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Thanks Crom. I'll probably go with the revolver then (I actually think they're cooler anyway).
This is how it starts, btw.

The gun craziness:

"I'll just go with the revolver."

"But now I need a carry gun."

"Home defense shotgun is a must."

"Not having a rifle is a crime!"

...

"That Desert Rhino .50 BMG is totally fun."

...

"I can't believe how much the M79 costs."

...

"GE M134. Honey, I've been so good this year."
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:04 PM   #27 (permalink)
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To those without knowledge of guns and ammo, various talk about ".22" rounds can be confusing. Because, you see, it's not just the size of the bullet, but also the size of the casing that determines the range and power of a round.

All of the following use .22 caliber bullets, but there are huge differences in range and power, between them: the .22 Short (used in pocket pistols and mini-revolvers), the .22 LR (used in plinking rifles), and the .22 Magnum (a more powerful version of the .22 LR). Then there is the .223 Remington, a sporting rifle round with a bullet and casing of the same dimensions as a 5.56mm NATO, the round used in the M-16 assault rifle – and yet the former is less powerful than the latter. (BTW: Generally speaking, you can safely fire a .223 Remington round in a rifle designed for a 5.56mm NATO, but not vice versa.)
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:51 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I would probably never buy a rimfire (.22) semiauto...the cheap ammo that is the reason your buying it is going to make misfires very annoying/inconvenient. I agree that a revolver is the way to go.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Eloquently said, Cyno. I think that was my main point of confusion before I read greg's post.

Oh, do rimfires have more misfires? If so a revolver really is the way to go then.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I would probably never buy a rimfire (.22) semiauto...the cheap ammo that is the reason your buying it is going to make misfires very annoying/inconvenient. I agree that a revolver is the way to go.
First Law of Ammunition: Garbage in -> garbage out.

Autopistols are perfectly reliable and my Ruger K512 has yet to have an issue with ejection. I don't use shitty ammo such as Thunderbolt.

I would still recommend a revolver. They're solid.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:20 AM   #31 (permalink)
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if you like revolvers and do not mind a single action, then I endorse the ruger single six- I love mine and it is far more accurate than me- as to misfires, .22 ammo is cheaply made for the most part, so you will get some failures to fire in cheap rimfire- beyond that I have had only one centerfire round fail to fire, with thousands of rounds fired without mishap..... (it was a federal .38 special BTW) oh, and if you go with the single six, it should come with a .22 mag cylinder as well, allowing you to shoot a much more powerful cartridge if you want/need to (and while it is not significantly more effective at stopping people, .22 mag is considered much more lethal to them- and to a variety of edible critters too)
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Last edited by Fire; 11-05-2008 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:40 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I'm afraid I'm ignorant to what single action means.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:45 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I'm afraid I'm ignorant to what single action means.
It means you must cock the hammer before firing. A double action cocks the hammer for you when you pull the trigger, though you can fire a double action with single action as well (as long as you have a hammer! Can't do it with my hammerless).
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:10 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It means you must cock the hammer before firing. A double action cocks the hammer for you when you pull the trigger, though you can fire a double action with single action as well (as long as you have a hammer! Can't do it with my hammerless).
Wait, so there are hammerless guns? What type of action are they called?
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:57 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Wait, so there are hammerless guns? What type of action are they called?
This is my hammerless revolver: Product: Model 442 Revolver

There is an internal hammer (it is concealed by the frame). You can also get shrouded hammers - hammerless and shrouded hammer revolvers are less likely to catch on fabric, clothes, etc. for concealed carry. A shrouded hammer you can usually fire single action, but a hammerless fires double action only.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:47 PM   #36 (permalink)
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